Why is Warhorn required?

RavenSworn

susmitds wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Think of it, this way, wouldn't just holding block and being battered by the baddies be boring? This at least, allows tanks to have a sort of reactive gameplay, unlike traditional tanks from other games, where it was basically AoE taunt and eat all damages, hoping your raid kills whatever needs killing.

Not quite true though, when I last played wow, tanks had to keep aggro through rotations. They can't just mash buttons reactively, it was a proactive system. Granted block was done passively but it could have been done actively much like in eso currently.

In eso now, tanks are really just buff bots. It's sad. I still tank but it's just not optimal not to include Warhorn. Is it viable with no Warhorn? Of course but again, it's about being optimal.

Iskiab

Same as it always was, when content is easy you buff dps at the expense defense.

In other games raiding guilds go defensive so you have enough time to learn the mechanics of an encounter. Then while on farm and you’ve geared up, everything changes to increase dps, even stripping out healers.

ESO is constantly in this stage, healers and tanks focus on increasing the group’s dps to clear faster. There hasn’t been a level increase, and there are more dps checks then anything else. Expect it to stay this way.

Iskiab

Protossyder wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

In my opinion this is not about being selfish or not, it's about being a bad or a good tank. I can survive being a "squishy buff bot" while being pressured by the boss, adds and mechanics, can you?

One thing I’d like to add, as a healer my most important job is not to heal the tank but provide resources. I’ve found tanks can keep themselves alive with no/very little healing from me.

Healing is mainly for dps who get hit with stuff.

DPS I also wouldn’t say is the hardest job, but a really good dps is more rare than a good tank. DPS love to talk about their 50k parses, but I’ve only been in one or two groups with over 100k ST dps, and a lot like pulling or tagging mobs first.

ZeroXFF

Protossyder wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

So it's not in your interest to finally kill the boss of whatever content you are currently doing? And please stop using over-exaggerations like "squishy buff bot", they may sound good, but are just not true.

The point is that DPS is indeed everything and every role is meant to do its part and contribute towards it. This is not a broken system, actually every game where the enemy (or yourself) has a health bar works like this.

I was told several times that DD is the most difficult role, but I honestly have the most respect for the tanks and healers instead of other DDs. Because you are right, tanking is more than just holding "block and taunt" and I never thought different. While I mainly play DD in trials, I just enjoy tanking in dungeons (especially vet dlc dungeons). Wearing sets like Alkosh and Ebonheart to provide group utility just add more to the challenge I love to take.

In my opinion this is not about being selfish or not, it's about being a bad or a good tank. I can survive being a "squishy buff bot" while being pressured by the boss, adds and mechanics, can you?

I can, probably better than you, but I'm enjoying the game more when I don't do that. I'd much rather take on additional tanking tasks as I get better than just mindlessly press X every 10 seconds. For example chaining adds away from portal in shadow realm in vCR to relieve pressure from people up top and increase the DD's uptime on the boss (thereby making the boss die faster). If you think that this kind of mechanics is less fun and engaging than using Alkosh, then I don't know how to help you.

Alternatively I wouldn't mind if it was my own DPS that mattered, because then it would make me feel powerful while also achieving the goal that you declare as the primary one. For example when I was playing WoW back in MoP, on some bosses we intentionally used one tank for a 2 tank job, because tank damage scaled with incoming damage, making the tank top DD too (and by a large margin, the tank did 2-3x the damage of the top DD on one of the bosses), but it was only possible with insane healing (making healers very important for their primary purpose, which is again something ESO is lacking at), and with a very tanky tank (because otherwise he would die before he can be healed, think vHRC hm, the thousand cuts attack, but double or even triple the damage and make it non-stop for the entire duration of the fight). And even when we weren't doing that kind of bosses, tanks still did about 50% of the damage of one DD. If the same kind of mechanic would be present in ESO, Alkosh would go out of fashion fast, because 2 tanks doing 20-30k DPS each would outweigh or at the very least match 5% damage boost to 8 60k DDs.

You can't tell me that either of these 2 options wouldn't be much more fun and epic than just pressing X every 10 seconds, and both making the tank be appreciated for being a better tank rather than a worse tank with better buffs.

Protossyder

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

So it's not in your interest to finally kill the boss of whatever content you are currently doing? And please stop using over-exaggerations like "squishy buff bot", they may sound good, but are just not true.

The point is that DPS is indeed everything and every role is meant to do its part and contribute towards it. This is not a broken system, actually every game where the enemy (or yourself) has a health bar works like this.

I was told several times that DD is the most difficult role, but I honestly have the most respect for the tanks and healers instead of other DDs. Because you are right, tanking is more than just holding "block and taunt" and I never thought different. While I mainly play DD in trials, I just enjoy tanking in dungeons (especially vet dlc dungeons). Wearing sets like Alkosh and Ebonheart to provide group utility just add more to the challenge I love to take.

In my opinion this is not about being selfish or not, it's about being a bad or a good tank. I can survive being a "squishy buff bot" while being pressured by the boss, adds and mechanics, can you?

I can, probably better than you, but I'm enjoying the game more when I don't do that. I'd much rather take on additional tanking tasks as I get better than just mindlessly press X every 10 seconds. For example chaining adds away from portal in shadow realm in vCR to relieve pressure from people up top and increase the DD's uptime on the boss (thereby making the boss die faster). If you think that this kind of mechanics is less fun and engaging than using Alkosh, then I don't know how to help you.

Alternatively I wouldn't mind if it was my own DPS that mattered, because then it would make me feel powerful while also achieving the goal that you declare as the primary one. For example when I was playing WoW back in MoP, on some bosses we intentionally used one tank for a 2 tank job, because tank damage scaled with incoming damage, making the tank top DD too (and by a large margin, the tank did 2-3x the damage of the top DD on one of the bosses), but it was only possible with insane healing (making healers very important for their primary purpose, which is again something ESO is lacking at), and with a very tanky tank (because otherwise he would die before he can be healed, think vHRC hm, the thousand cuts attack, but double or even triple the damage and make it non-stop for the entire duration of the fight). And even when we weren't doing that kind of bosses, tanks still did about 50% of the damage of one DD. If the same kind of mechanic would be present in ESO, Alkosh would go out of fashion fast, because 2 tanks doing 20-30k DPS each would outweigh or at the very least match 5% damage boost to 8 60k DDs.

You can't tell me that either of these 2 options wouldn't be much more fun and epic than just pressing X every 10 seconds, and both making the tank be appreciated for being a better tank rather than a worse tank with better buffs.

How about chaining the adds and wearing Alkosh at the same time..?

I didn't play WoW, but from what you've told me I can read that you also have a rotation as tank, just like a "buff bot", with one minor difference: you deal dmg with your skills in WoW while you apply debuffs in ESO. Woah, crazy difference . And the WoW healers have a full healing rotation, while the ESO healers rotation applys healing and buffs/debuffs.

So basically you are mad about the fact that the additional DPS you provide as tank isn't shown on your GUI, but on your teammates'? Next level first world problems here, seriously.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I can, probably better than you

I really doubt that.

Aznox

Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm reading this thread like : " I don't want to accept the fact that some people are skilled enough to Tank AND support while i need to use all my resources/sets/skill just to survive "

The only way to force all tanks (including elite players) to full-defense-mode would be to significantly up the difficulty, but then average players would not even be able to perform this role at all anymore.

As for role recognition/prestige, i always felt a good tank had the most "rockstar potential" in ESO due to having the most mechanics to learn/remember, do you guys feel differently ?

Protossyder

Aznox wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm reading this thread like : " I don't want to accept the fact that some people are skilled enough to Tank AND support while i need to use all my resources/sets/skill just to survive "

The only way to force all tanks (including elite players) to full-defense-mode would be to significantly up the difficulty, but then average players would not even be able to perform this role at all anymore.

As for role recognition/prestige, i always felt a good tank had the most "rockstar potential" in ESO due to having the most mechanics to learn/remember, do you guys feel differently ?

Fellwitch

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Aznox wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm reading this thread like : " I don't want to accept the fact that some people are skilled enough to Tank AND support while i need to use all my resources/sets/skill just to survive "

The only way to force all tanks (including elite players) to full-defense-mode would be to significantly up the difficulty, but then average players would not even be able to perform this role at all anymore.

As for role recognition/prestige, i always felt a good tank had the most "rockstar potential" in ESO due to having the most mechanics to learn/remember, do you guys feel differently ?

It is that there should be more interesting and viable options to tanking than always spamming and be required to spam, the same ultimate. No one is saying full defense mode. There are many examples from other MMOs where tanks had varied and exciting mechanics.

Aznox

So in general everyone seems to agree that OP is evading the discussion an not providing arguments, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys, unfollowing this thread.

SoLooney

susmitds wrote: »

True Tanks don't exist in ESO PvE, unlike PvP. In PvE, the tank is a buffing/debuffing support unit, not a traditional tank like other MMOs.

Tanking would be so boring in this game if all you did was poke the boss and block

I find it skillful and fun to hold aggro while staying alive and casting buffs and debuffs.

To each their own, I think the tanking system works well for me

p00tx

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.

Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you). Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.

It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.

DocFrost72

As someone who hates the "Support are dps batteries" outlook and often butts heads over "selfish" sets and how they're not selfish at all, warhorn is fine. It gives max hp and stamina to allies, making them tougher and letting them block or roll more.

Fantastic support ult well designed. Only complaint is that it is heavily overloaded with goodies.

Oakmontowls_ESO

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Aznox wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm reading this thread like : " I don't want to accept the fact that some people are skilled enough to Tank AND support while i need to use all my resources/sets/skill just to survive "

The only way to force all tanks (including elite players) to full-defense-mode would be to significantly up the difficulty, but then average players would not even be able to perform this role at all anymore.

As for role recognition/prestige, i always felt a good tank had the most "rockstar potential" in ESO due to having the most mechanics to learn/remember, do you guys feel differently ?

It is that there should be more interesting and viable options to tanking than always spamming and be required to spam, the same ultimate. No one is saying full defense mode. There are many examples from other MMOs where tanks had varied and exciting mechanics.

What else are you going to use? You have two ultimate slots and one is probably going to be a selfish defensive ult like magma shell. So instead of spamming war horn, you are just going to be spamming another ultimate.

Kalgert

susmitds wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Think of it, this way, wouldn't just holding block and being battered by the baddies be boring? This at least, allows tanks to have a sort of reactive gameplay, unlike traditional tanks from other games, where it was basically AoE taunt and eat all damages, hoping your raid kills whatever needs killing.

I would actually quite like this.

At least it can make me feel like a big mighty defender, rather than a buffer for some goon.

Luigi_Vampa

Aznox wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm reading this thread like : " I don't want to accept the fact that some people are skilled enough to Tank AND support while i need to use all my resources/sets/skill just to survive "

The only way to force all tanks (including elite players) to full-defense-mode would be to significantly up the difficulty, but then average players would not even be able to perform this role at all anymore.

As for role recognition/prestige, i always felt a good tank had the most "rockstar potential" in ESO due to having the most mechanics to learn/remember, do you guys feel differently ?

I'll correct you. I can tank and support. I used to heal tank on a Templar tank a while ago. It was more engaging taking on two roles. I would like to see difficulty increased. Specifically take away one shots and up damage considerably so that tanks have to protect the group (all those mitigation ults we don't use) more mechanics and no longer allowed high DPS to just bypass the mechanics. It's gotten silly, besides vet trials and some vet dlc dungeons you can just stack and burn and kill the boss before anything really happens. It's why I play DPS in this game. Tanking just feels lackluster. Hell, unless you are doing previously mentioned vet trials and some vet dlc dungeons you can just slap a taunt on your dps have some self healing and roll four DPS. I enjoy blowing things up as DPS but when I tanked I just felt like a buff bot that groups adds and holds bosses in place. It just didn't feel like an iconic tank to me. This is all my perception though. I understand that many enjoy tanking in this game and I'm happy to let them do it.

p00tx

Kalgert wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Think of it, this way, wouldn't just holding block and being battered by the baddies be boring? This at least, allows tanks to have a sort of reactive gameplay, unlike traditional tanks from other games, where it was basically AoE taunt and eat all damages, hoping your raid kills whatever needs killing.

I would actually quite like this.

At least it can make me feel like a big mighty defender, rather than a buffer for some goon.

#allgoonsmatter

As a part-time "goon", I take umbrage with this. If it weren't for us hacking away at the boss, you'd never get to complete the content, just like we couldn't do it without the tank buffing us and averting the dmg or the healers buffing and debuffing and healing the dmg. This is why I think every PvEer needs to build one of each role, and actually play them, so they get a real feel for the importance of and challenges associated with each role. You don't call your teammates goons.

Luigi_Vampa

p00tx wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Think of it, this way, wouldn't just holding block and being battered by the baddies be boring? This at least, allows tanks to have a sort of reactive gameplay, unlike traditional tanks from other games, where it was basically AoE taunt and eat all damages, hoping your raid kills whatever needs killing.

I would actually quite like this.

At least it can make me feel like a big mighty defender, rather than a buffer for some goon.

#allgoonsmatter

As a part-time "goon", I take umbrage with this. If it weren't for us hacking away at the boss, you'd never get to complete the content, just like we couldn't do it without the tank buffing us and averting the dmg or the healers buffing and debuffing and healing the dmg. This is why I think every PvEer needs to build one of each role, and actually play them, so they get a real feel for the importance of and challenges associated with each role. You don't call your teammates goons.

I agree. You shouldn't call teammates goons. However tanks and healers being needed isn't always true. I know a lot of healers who feel they are only welcome for learning new content and for no death achievement runs (trials excluded). Once people have the content down many run three DPS and a tank or straight up four DPS.

Oakmontowls_ESO

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm reading this thread like : " I don't want to accept the fact that some people are skilled enough to Tank AND support while i need to use all my resources/sets/skill just to survive "

The only way to force all tanks (including elite players) to full-defense-mode would be to significantly up the difficulty, but then average players would not even be able to perform this role at all anymore.

As for role recognition/prestige, i always felt a good tank had the most "rockstar potential" in ESO due to having the most mechanics to learn/remember, do you guys feel differently ?

I'll correct you. I can tank and support. I used to heal tank on a Templar tank a while ago. It was more engaging taking on two roles. I would like to see difficulty increased. Specifically take away one shots and up damage considerably so that tanks have to protect the group (all those mitigation ults we don't use) more mechanics and no longer allowed high DPS to just bypass the mechanics. It's gotten silly, besides vet trials and some vet dlc dungeons you can just stack and burn and kill the boss before anything really happens. It's why I play DPS in this game. Tanking just feels lackluster. Hell, unless you are doing previously mentioned vet trials and some vet dlc dungeons you can just slap a taunt on your dps have some self healing and roll four DPS. I enjoy blowing things up as DPS but when I tanked I just felt like a buff bot that groups adds and holds bosses in place. It just didn't feel like an iconic tank to me. This is all my perception though. I understand that many enjoy tanking in this game and I'm happy to let them do it.

A hard no from me for giving bosses mechanics that just stop dps. Go try the flesh sculpture in icp or non hm zaan in scale caller with decent dps and you will see how boring bosses becoming invincible is. As for being able to use mitigation ults, you mean the 4 that exist in the entire game? So instead of using war horn you are just going to use your class mitigation ult unless you are a dk in which case you don't have an option unless you consider barrier one.

Oakmontowls_ESO

Just because I was curious about the options for mitigation in the game, here they are:
Dk:
Choking talons: aoe minor maim
Obsidian Shield: group shield

Templar:
Nova(Ult): aoe major maim

Sorc:
Negate magic(Ult): Long duration aoe stun

Nb:
Consuming Darkness(Ult): major protection

Warden:
Sleet storm(Ult): Major Protection
Frost Cloak: Aoe major armor buffs
Frozen device: Major maim(doesn't work on bosses)

Weapons:
Low slash: minor maim

Guild Skills:
Circle of Protection: minor protection
Mend spirit: Major armor buffs on 1 target
Bone Shield: Shield buff on synergy

Alliance Skills:
Sturdy horn: aoe minor armor buffs
Barrier(Ult): aoe big shield
Guard: damage share

Now of these skills, I have seen almost all of them used in specific situations, the ones I haven't seen is usually because either the other morph is better or the skill is just inherently flawed like mend spirit.

Luigi_Vampa

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm reading this thread like : " I don't want to accept the fact that some people are skilled enough to Tank AND support while i need to use all my resources/sets/skill just to survive "

The only way to force all tanks (including elite players) to full-defense-mode would be to significantly up the difficulty, but then average players would not even be able to perform this role at all anymore.

As for role recognition/prestige, i always felt a good tank had the most "rockstar potential" in ESO due to having the most mechanics to learn/remember, do you guys feel differently ?

I'll correct you. I can tank and support. I used to heal tank on a Templar tank a while ago. It was more engaging taking on two roles. I would like to see difficulty increased. Specifically take away one shots and up damage considerably so that tanks have to protect the group (all those mitigation ults we don't use) more mechanics and no longer allowed high DPS to just bypass the mechanics. It's gotten silly, besides vet trials and some vet dlc dungeons you can just stack and burn and kill the boss before anything really happens. It's why I play DPS in this game. Tanking just feels lackluster. Hell, unless you are doing previously mentioned vet trials and some vet dlc dungeons you can just slap a taunt on your dps have some self healing and roll four DPS. I enjoy blowing things up as DPS but when I tanked I just felt like a buff bot that groups adds and holds bosses in place. It just didn't feel like an iconic tank to me. This is all my perception though. I understand that many enjoy tanking in this game and I'm happy to let them do it.

A hard no from me for giving bosses mechanics that just stop dps. Go try the flesh sculpture in icp or non hm zaan in scale caller with decent dps and you will see how boring bosses becoming invincible is. As for being able to use mitigation ults, you mean the 4 that exist in the entire game? So instead of using war horn you are just going to use your class mitigation ult unless you are a dk in which case you don't have an option unless you consider barrier one.

Just my opinion. I don't have a detailed vision for a different ESO. Just stating how I feel. There is a lot they could do to increase some diversity. Tanks have used pretty much only Ebon, Alkosh and Warhorn for how long now? You can run other things but that is the meta. Gets boring. I just wish tanks needed to do more. Do you find tanking fun in this game? Not trying to be a smartass. It's a genuine question. Is the meta of moar damage enjoyable for anyone except us DPS who like to see our big numbers.

I agree that flat out stopping DPS is annoying and boring. I don't have an answer for that. I'm a carpenter not a game designer.

Disclaimer: I don't tank anymore. I stopped enjoying it once I got good at it and felt like I hit my ceiling. Also pugging as a tank and getting horrible DPS randoms broke my spirit. I'd rather carry as a DPS

Oakmontowls_ESO

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm reading this thread like : " I don't want to accept the fact that some people are skilled enough to Tank AND support while i need to use all my resources/sets/skill just to survive "

The only way to force all tanks (including elite players) to full-defense-mode would be to significantly up the difficulty, but then average players would not even be able to perform this role at all anymore.

As for role recognition/prestige, i always felt a good tank had the most "rockstar potential" in ESO due to having the most mechanics to learn/remember, do you guys feel differently ?

I'll correct you. I can tank and support. I used to heal tank on a Templar tank a while ago. It was more engaging taking on two roles. I would like to see difficulty increased. Specifically take away one shots and up damage considerably so that tanks have to protect the group (all those mitigation ults we don't use) more mechanics and no longer allowed high DPS to just bypass the mechanics. It's gotten silly, besides vet trials and some vet dlc dungeons you can just stack and burn and kill the boss before anything really happens. It's why I play DPS in this game. Tanking just feels lackluster. Hell, unless you are doing previously mentioned vet trials and some vet dlc dungeons you can just slap a taunt on your dps have some self healing and roll four DPS. I enjoy blowing things up as DPS but when I tanked I just felt like a buff bot that groups adds and holds bosses in place. It just didn't feel like an iconic tank to me. This is all my perception though. I understand that many enjoy tanking in this game and I'm happy to let them do it.

A hard no from me for giving bosses mechanics that just stop dps. Go try the flesh sculpture in icp or non hm zaan in scale caller with decent dps and you will see how boring bosses becoming invincible is. As for being able to use mitigation ults, you mean the 4 that exist in the entire game? So instead of using war horn you are just going to use your class mitigation ult unless you are a dk in which case you don't have an option unless you consider barrier one.

Just my opinion. I don't have a detailed vision for a different ESO. Just stating how I feel. There is a lot they could do to increase some diversity. Tanks have used pretty much only Ebon, Alkosh and Warhorn for how long now? You can run other things but that is the meta. Gets boring. I just wish tanks needed to do more. Do you find tanking fun in this game? Not trying to be a smartass. It's a genuine question. Is the meta of moar damage enjoyable for anyone except us DPS who like to see our big numbers.

I agree that flat out stopping DPS is annoying and boring. I don't have an answer for that. I'm a carpenter not a game designer.

Disclaimer: I don't tank anymore. I stopped enjoying it once I got good at it and felt like I hit my ceiling. Also pugging as a tank and getting horrible DPS randoms broke my spirit. I'd rather carry as a DPS

I both dps and tank with more of an emphasis on tanking lately as I am 4 man achievement hunting with a group. I enjoy tanking with a group that knows what they are doing and are doing more dps than the 10k combined dps that I have encountered. Now tanking for a terrible pug group is frustrating since you can't just carry the group like a dps or dps oriented healer. It could just be that I'm playing with a group of people that I enjoy being around and that it is progression rather than a score pushing one. As for diversity in sets, how would wearing anything else change your playstyle? If anything alkosh adds something else for you to be doing as a tank. Most other sets that a tank might use are more passive that proc without much thought.

Mr_Walker

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

I quite enjoy it.

Controlling the fight, pointing the boss conal attacks away from group, recognising when someone has an ice-staff and the tri-focus passive....

Tasear

Fellwitch wrote: »

Can someone please explain why it is that Warhorn is needed by every single tank?

I understand what it does, I just do not understand why the whole end-game is based around an ultimate.

Where is the build diversification for tanks if they always have to use this? To me, it seems like Warhorn does not fit the goals ZOS is striving for, especially with the race changes.

Are there even any end-game groups that do not require the tank to use this? It seems very constricting and limiting, because every other option the tank could use as an ultimate is a huge dps loss for the group.

Maybe this has been answered before?

Thank you

For build diversity...we need spell crafting.

ZeroXFF

p00tx wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.

Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.

It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.

1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.

p00tx

ZeroXFF wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.

Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.

It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.

1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.

So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.

In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.

As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).

Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.

pizzaow

Changes I hope ZOS makes:

1. Create an undaunted ultimate that rivals war horn... I'm personally hoping for something that applies major vulnerability (which currently doesn't exist in the game).

2. Change the Alkosh penetration buff to a named buff and create a heavy armor version (similar to SPC/Olorime).

As-is warhorn is too good. Hands down the best buff in the game. Every 1000 mag/stam is roughly equivalent to 100 weapon/spell damage. Most DPS walk around with ~40K of their major resource, so that +10% ends up being equivalent to 400 weapon and or spell damage. Plus major force. That's a bigger buff than olorime and powerful assault combined!

DocFrost72

p00tx wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.

Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.

It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.

1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.

-we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets,

I really disagree with one thing in this: Healers using plague or ebon is in no way comparable in effect to tanks running alkosh.

In perspective, only a single bonus from those sets is useless on your healer (ebon health regen), and one (ebon) even aids the group' survivability. Alkosh on the other hand does not give a tank anything even remotely useful:

Weapon crit,
Slayer,
Weapon crit,
Pen and damage.

Alkosh is a medium set (not even remotely useful on tanks passive wise), but this can be partially remedied by farming specific pieces. On the other hand, ebon and Plague come in heavy which restores magicka and stam on being struck in addition to increasing survivability, making the job of keeping potl/bone shield up a touch easier along with negating a bit of the cost reduction and regen loss.

In short, the only situation I can imagine in the entire game where you sacrifice armor passives and armor bonuses to benefit someone is tank wearing alkosh. I love supporting my group: give me more sets like Ebon and torug which provide defensive elements and make my presence felt by my team mates. Make me a bulwark to keep my team strong and steady. If I must be a dps battery, at least give it to me in heavy please.

Stx

I like being a heavy group support role as a tank, so I dont mind using a skill like war horn over a personal defensive.

My only issue is that it's the only option for that role and no other ultimate provides the same group dps benefits. That and it's a boring ultimate. No visuals, no cool effects.

p00tx

DocFrost72 wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.

Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.

It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.

1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.

-we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets,

I really disagree with one thing in this: Healers using plague or ebon is in no way comparable in effect to tanks running alkosh.

In perspective, only a single bonus from those sets is useless on your healer (ebon health regen), and one (ebon) even aids the group' survivability. Alkosh on the other hand does not give a tank anything even remotely useful:

Weapon crit,
Slayer,
Weapon crit,
Pen and damage.

Alkosh is a medium set (not even remotely useful on tanks passive wise), but this can be partially remedied by farming specific pieces. On the other hand, ebon and Plague come in heavy which restores magicka and stam on being struck in addition to increasing survivability, making the job of keeping potl/bone shield up a touch easier along with negating a bit of the cost reduction and regen loss.

In short, the only situation I can imagine in the entire game where you sacrifice armor passives and armor bonuses to benefit someone is tank wearing alkosh. I love supporting my group: give me more sets like Ebon and torug which provide defensive elements and make my presence felt by my team mates. Make me a bulwark to keep my team strong and steady. If I must be a dps battery, at least give it to me in heavy please.

I will agree that Zos made odd choices for armor weights. Stam DDs use Advancing Yokeda, which is a heavy set, so they're forced to farm the incredibly rare daggers and jewelry (this stupid set never seems to drop!) or lose out on dmg by wearing a heavy set on the body. It was a silly decision by Zos, since there is no one in dungeons in heavy armour who has any use for weapon crit.

Sometimes I think they have an algorithm that randomly generates the new gear sets, so we end up with these weird medium armor mag sets and heavy armour trial dmg sets. It's just odd.

Oakmontowls_ESO

p00tx wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.

Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.

It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.

1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.

-we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets,

I really disagree with one thing in this: Healers using plague or ebon is in no way comparable in effect to tanks running alkosh.

In perspective, only a single bonus from those sets is useless on your healer (ebon health regen), and one (ebon) even aids the group' survivability. Alkosh on the other hand does not give a tank anything even remotely useful:

Weapon crit,
Slayer,
Weapon crit,
Pen and damage.

Alkosh is a medium set (not even remotely useful on tanks passive wise), but this can be partially remedied by farming specific pieces. On the other hand, ebon and Plague come in heavy which restores magicka and stam on being struck in addition to increasing survivability, making the job of keeping potl/bone shield up a touch easier along with negating a bit of the cost reduction and regen loss.

In short, the only situation I can imagine in the entire game where you sacrifice armor passives and armor bonuses to benefit someone is tank wearing alkosh. I love supporting my group: give me more sets like Ebon and torug which provide defensive elements and make my presence felt by my team mates. Make me a bulwark to keep my team strong and steady. If I must be a dps battery, at least give it to me in heavy please.

I will agree that Zos made odd choices for armor weights. Stam DDs use Advancing Yokeda, which is a heavy set, so they're forced to farm the incredibly rare daggers and jewelry (this stupid set never seems to drop!) or lose out on dmg by wearing a heavy set on the body. It was a silly decision by Zos, since there is no one in dungeons in heavy armour who has any use for weapon crit.

Sometimes I think they have an algorithm that randomly generates the new gear sets, so we end up with these weird medium armor mag sets and heavy armour trial dmg sets. It's just odd.

In the past, they locked very strong armor sets behind heavy armor. It's why sets like Ravager, soulshine, and other heavy damage sets exist. However with the introduction of jewelry crafting in combination with transmutation we can ignore the downsides of it being in heavy by changing the trait from healthy and using weapons.