Please Give VET DLC it's own separate Random group finder queue

profundidob16_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the purpose of the Groupfinder is to backfill groups that lose a member or to fill groups for someone queuing for a specific dungeon.

If you split the DLC dungeons into a seperate queue, groups doing them will have a harder time replacing members and people queuing for them specifically (for gear or a pledge) using groupfinder will have a harder time getting a group. Remember, the DLC dungeon queues are already smaller than the base game ones, limited to +300 CP DLC owners or subscribers.

That's like a double whammy. First, its harder content to begin with, so the attrition rate is higher. Second, split queues makes them wait longer. Even offering a bigger reward for greater risk isnt going to help with that.

Essentially, offering an opt-out of DLC dungeons works against the very purpose of Groupfinder by making it harder for the people who want to run the DLCs to find groupmates using it. Thats true no matter how great the reward you offer is.



Now, the solution to the problem I've pointed out above is to poo-poo the Groupfinder and say "Well, if you want to queue for a Vet DLC, why are you pugging it anyway? You ought to use a guild group or a pre-made group to get gear or do the pledge and everything will go smoother anyway!"

Which is not actually a bad solution. Guild or premade groups tend to work better in harder content, so thats a practical solution for the needs of a player who wants to run that specific dungeon.

However, it still doesn't address the needs of people using Groupfinder to backfill missing members or queue for the specific dungeon from an even smaller pool of tanks, healers, and DDs willing to run the DLC dungeons.


So what this really comes down to is whether ZOS is willing to make Groupfinder work less well and effectively make players form premade groups to do Vet DLC dungeona in a timely manner in order to let other players opt out of content they don't want to do.

At first I had this line of thought as well but soon realized the error in it:

Right now the queues for VET DLC and VET non-DLC are together creating indeed a bigger player pool providing "a random player" faster but at the same time 70-80% of that time that is a useless player that ends up leaving or being kicked anyway causing nothing but frustration and delay. It can take kicking/leaving several different people not up the task before finally someone workable arrives.

Splitting the queue ensures that your VET DLC queue delivers only people that are up to that task (or at least queued with that intention...)

Therefore mathematically it's bound to be much more efficient.

Depends. Its a bit odd and hard to predict. I'll fully admit its hard to argue for or against the impact of the queue without data that only ZOS has on vet DLC completion rates. Still, we can argue in generalities.

So, first, the Vet DLC queue is inherently limited to: 300+CP Subscribers and DLC pack owners...who are currently queueing for all random or those specific dungeons. That's a fairly small pool to begin with compared to the closest base game equivalent in Vet COA2.

The suggestion proposed would cut the Vet DLC queue pool further to: 300+ CP Subscribers and DLC pack owners who actually want to and theoretically can do the DLC dungeons...who are currently queuing up to run a dungeon. In this case, the higher the demand for opting out of the Vet DLCs, the smaller the final pool becomes. Unavoidably, a small queue pool becomes smaller and backfilling or filling groups with Groupfinder takes longer.


Now, we can argue, as I believe you have done if I understand correctly, that this final smaller queue pool of players who want to queue for Vet DLCs is in fact identical to the current pool of "players who can do Vet DLCs, don't leave, and don't get kicked". If this is indeed the case, then, we should see no practical difference. Any longer wait time for groupmembers at the beginning should be made up for with greater efficiency in the dungeon itself thus making for a better experience all around once you find a group.

Personally, I am more skeptical that those two groups are in fact one and the same. I expect that even this smaller queue of players will suffer from having to leave groups or having to kick players, and thus will also suffer from the longer replacement times due to a smaller queue pool.

The matter of extra rewards is also a double-edged sword. The better the rewards ZOS offers, the more unqualified players will join the queue. The less substantial rewards ZOS offers, the less that qualified players have reason to join the queue.

I'm of the opinion that the best method for filling and backfilling groups in a timely manner through the Groupfinder is the current method where there is not a seperate queue. That is, after all, the purpose of Groupfinder.

Now, true, those groups formed, filled, or backfilled, by Groupfinder have no guarantee of being able to complete the dungeon beyond meeting the minimum requirements. Doing so would require ZOS to increase the minimum requirements as they've done in the past, or for even better results, groups to form premades or guild groups with players they know. Premade and Guild groups will always be the most efficient way to complete hard content.

if the 2 queuing pools (vet DLC vs vet non-DLC) were 50%-50% in size, we would indeed feel no difference after splitting them. After daily queuing vet random over a period of let's say the entire last year I can testify on my own observed statistical data: on average about *roughly*1 in 5 people coming into a vet DLC dungeon leads to a scenario that can be completed in my experience and this still requires me educating them on all mechanics etc, a factor which I have not even begun to include. This is a side effect result of those players ending up in vet dlc while they had never intended and would never queue for it intentionally but since they got here anyway by accident and there are friendly players present that are willing to teach them it leads to a workable scenario after all, just takes alot longer. Another factor not yet included.

So the pools are more like 80% vs 20% in the end, and therefore splitting the 2 pools leads to vet DLC not having to kick 4 people on average before getting a 'workable' candidate. In this regard.

Ofc I can prove nothing of this without access to all statistical data that only ZOS has.

In addition it stands without reason and I fully agree to the fact that nothing is more efficient than running all vet DLC content always with the same hardcore premade-group (guildies,friends) but I actually love the random human factor (read: as long as those random humans are up to that level of play) and queue for that exact reason.

As for the reward again I fully agree with you. Put it higher and you lure in inexperienced people, solving nothing. Whatever small 'extra' award needs to be something trivial that only appeals to DLC lovers and is not reward-oriented as a goal in itself. This encourages DLC play for the sake of DLC and/or random human factor, nothing more.

More even, after the split people will start to adapt until only people really wanting to play vet DLC will queue for it find those like-minded people without all the extra delay and frustration

Diminish

I use group finder, A LOT. Lately I use it and only check vet DLC dungeons and the vet version of whatever the other 2 dailies are. Rarely, and I mean VERY RARELY, do I ever get in groups riding the struggle bus, and cant complete the dungeon. Might get a couple wipes, but nothing indicating a sweeping change to the queue needs to happen. PS4 NA.

coj901

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the purpose of the Groupfinder is to backfill groups that lose a member or to fill groups for someone queuing for a specific dungeon.

If you split the DLC dungeons into a seperate queue, groups doing them will have a harder time replacing members and people queuing for them specifically (for gear or a pledge) using groupfinder will have a harder time getting a group. Remember, the DLC dungeon queues are already smaller than the base game ones, limited to +300 CP DLC owners or subscribers.

That's like a double whammy. First, its harder content to begin with, so the attrition rate is higher. Second, split queues makes them wait longer. Even offering a bigger reward for greater risk isnt going to help with that.

Essentially, offering an opt-out of DLC dungeons works against the very purpose of Groupfinder by making it harder for the people who want to run the DLCs to find groupmates using it. Thats true no matter how great the reward you offer is.



Now, the solution to the problem I've pointed out above is to poo-poo the Groupfinder and say "Well, if you want to queue for a Vet DLC, why are you pugging it anyway? You ought to use a guild group or a pre-made group to get gear or do the pledge and everything will go smoother anyway!"

Which is not actually a bad solution. Guild or premade groups tend to work better in harder content, so thats a practical solution for the needs of a player who wants to run that specific dungeon.

However, it still doesn't address the needs of people using Groupfinder to backfill missing members or queue for the specific dungeon from an even smaller pool of tanks, healers, and DDs willing to run the DLC dungeons.


So what this really comes down to is whether ZOS is willing to make Groupfinder work less well and effectively make players form premade groups to do Vet DLC dungeona in a timely manner in order to let other players opt out of content they don't want to do.

when my group finder finally pops and I end up with a group in the last boss of that werewolf one. I'm disappointed because i probably can't do it and they also aint happy.

profundidob16_ESO

coj901 wrote: »

when my group finder finally pops and I end up with a group in the last boss of that werewolf one. I'm disappointed because i probably can't do it and they also aint happy.

You mean Moonhunter Keep. Yes if people don't know the mechanics it's wipe after wipe on vet

profundidob16_ESO

Diminish wrote: »

I use group finder, A LOT. Lately I use it and only check vet DLC dungeons and the vet version of whatever the other 2 dailies are. Rarely, and I mean VERY RARELY, do I ever get in groups riding the struggle bus, and cant complete the dungeon. Might get a couple wipes, but nothing indicating a sweeping change to the queue needs to happen. PS4 NA.

try pc NA & EU...you'll change your mind fast enough I'm sure

FierceSam

Sending randoms to DLC dungeons isn't fun.

It's not fun for the randoms, who don't want to do those dungeons for whatever reason

It's not fun for the players who do want to do them and are waiting to fill their groups only to find people appearing and leaving over and over again

They are specifically designed for a certain kind of player/group who want a significantly greater challenge than non-DLC dungeons. As such, surely it should be the individual player's choice whether they do them.

For me, the easiest solution would be to separate out the DLC and non-DLC random daily queues and balance that by rewarding the DLC random dailies substantially more

It's so ZOS that the only way I can currently ensure that I don't get sent to a random DLC dungeons is to cancel my subscription - to get what I want by giving them less money

Inarre

We want random! But not that random!

Personally I think this would be no problem if the community went into random queue prepared for any dungeon rather than on their dps queued as tank with their fingers crossed for fungal 1.

As someone who pugs all of the dlcs (specific queue, not random) I would love to always get people who were prepared to complete the dungeon. On the other hand, for these people wanting easy random rewards I don't think that's the answer.

The reward is there for random. Not random easy. If you want to choose the dungeon you run, select it in the group finder.

xxthir13enxx

I am Against this!
But not for any legitimate reason....
Just because I think Skyshards should be Account bound...but people against it state that if ZOS wanted it that way they would of done it 5yrs ago...
Sooo.... NO You cannot have a common sense fix for your game cause it ruins My...well really it only ruins my statement...but THATS NOT THE POINT!!

profundidob16_ESO

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

I am Against this!
But not for any legitimate reason....
Just because I think Skyshards should be Account bound...but people against it state that if ZOS wanted it that way they would of done it 5yrs ago...
Sooo.... NO You cannot have a common sense fix for your game cause it ruins My...well really it only ruins my statement...but THATS NOT THE POINT!!

its fine mate, it's all good...

xxthir13enxx

I’d rather have a Snickers....

josiahva

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

dear dungeon dev team,


you've read the PTS comments and feedback on the new DLC dungeons in vet mode by now. High skilled players love it, above average players think it's too hard and the bulk will fail at it until group disband or simply skip all together.

Also note how large the list of DLC dungeons has become, probably by now as large as the list of original (non-dlc) dungeons which are clearly a joke compared to DLC.

Doesn't the list of VET DLC dungeons deserve it's own queue by now so that true dungeon enthusiasts can find each other for some vet dlc fun while people that only want to complete fast for purple level gear and xp reward (or simply to force a group with fellow cp players) have the option to do so. I firmly believe this would solve a lot of daily hassle and frustation !


@ZOS_Finn

NO, its a RANDOM dungeon, if DLC dungeons get their own queue then either give vet DLCs better rewards, or non vet DLCs worse rewards. The FACT of the matter is, that the rewards are for a random dungeon...if you dont do a RANDOM dungeon, you dont deserve the rewards

Pevey

Tasear wrote: »

Just covers up the problem.

Agreed, the real problem is that ZOS keeps creating so much of this content that so many players don't want to do and have to be bribed with random rewards to even consider. Why, ZOS? Why?

EDIT: I wish they would stop making DLC free as part of ESO+ just so that (1) I wouldn't have the DLC dungeons as part of my random options because I would never buy them, and (2) they could see how few people are actually willing to pay for that content.

MerlinPendragon

You can custom pick which dungeons to queue for. There is no need for another PUG finder when this function is already possible in game

Taleof2Cities

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that the best method for filling and backfilling groups in a timely manner through the Groupfinder is the current method where there is not a seperate queue. That is, after all, the purpose of Groupfinder.

^This.^

Splitting the Groupfinder queue means longer queue times in both queues ... which is why this is a bad idea.

If players are too lazy to learn the mechanics (especially if they're over the CP300), they shouldn't queue for random. It's that simple.

fossoyer

Queue with a pal who doesnt buy dlc is the best way

Loves_guars

Please ZoS. I almost don't queue anymore while having ESO+, and by this time, DLC dungeons are too many.

FierceSam

Just an extreme comparison. Yesterday I spent about 3 and a half hours in Depths of Malatar vet. We finally completed it, it was great but brutally draining and I’m not sure when I’ll be going back. Today I ripped through vet Tempest Island and Darkshade Caverns 2 with a couple of great pugs in about 40 minutes for both. Happy days.

When I go for a vet random I’m expecting the latter not the former. I’m all in favour of ZOS helping populate the DLC content via the group finder, but it should be MY choice whether I want to take part in the DLC. By all means massively increase the rewards for a DLC random to encourage people to take part, DON’T force them to do something they don’t want to. That’s never a good strategy.

This is all about being fair to both those who want a ‘relaxing fungeon’ random dungeon experience AND those who want to seriously do the DLC and are looking for people to help them. It’s about respecting the players. It doesn’t help ANYONE if you get randoms dropping into DLC content and immediately porting out and taking a penalty rather than spend twice as long in a dungeon they don’t want to play.

karekiz

Dear dev team please put a DPS/tank/heal check + mechanic check to be able to random que for vet content at all. Players however can pre-form groups on their own and enter at their own risk.

Finishing the content on whatever role unlocks that role to random into.

For deeps something similar to.

The test requires you to Parse "15K? or 20K?" amount on a mob DPS check <Mob comes pre-debuffed basic puncture> - Bash and interrupt an ability - and block a cast that will kill if you ignored. AoE phase sprinkled in.

I fixed your groups.

ddgsodium

This used to be a non-issue. But nowadays there are MORE DLC dungeons than vanilla dungeon, so this becomes a huge problem.

Dusk_Coven

Or remove random dungeon rewards. That's a big part of the problem with people who just want the reward and don't care what happens in the dungeon, maybe hoping to get carried when a tough one shows up.
But a separate queue won't change things when people just want their pledge done but don't care to get serious and just hope for a carry.

SOLO mode is important because it would let everyone learn most of a dungeon's mechanics on their own before they group up. Right now it's totally legitimate to get complete newbies queueing for any dungeon and that can add to the frustration when someone queues but isn't wanting a 1 hour training run.

Goddess_Althena

Fully agree, Vet DLC dungeons are in their own class and giving them a separate queue would certainly help curate a much better experience for those players that wish to do them.
But seeing as how dungeon finder has constantly been broken in some way, shape or form in the many years I've played this game, I won't be holding my breath.

YstradClud

Agree. I queue up dungeons in a solo build I use for farming and then when I get in these DLC dungeons people have a go at me for being wrong spec so I had to re-spec so people would stop nagging me.

Tsar_Gekkou

All they need to do is remove the 15-minute punishment timer, so if you get paired up with a fake tank and 2 dps who just spam liquid lightning, you can dip immediately instead of going afk and hoping they kick you within those 15 minutes to dodge the timer.

AlnilamE

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Or remove random dungeon rewards. That's a big part of the problem with people who just want the reward and don't care what happens in the dungeon, maybe hoping to get carried when a tough one shows up.
But a separate queue won't change things when people just want their pledge done but don't care to get serious and just hope for a carry.

SOLO mode is important because it would let everyone learn most of a dungeon's mechanics on their own before they group up. Right now it's totally legitimate to get complete newbies queueing for any dungeon and that can add to the frustration when someone queues but isn't wanting a 1 hour training run.

I'm sorry, but how is a solo mode going to teach you group mechanics?

stefj68

i think hard mode should have his own queue... when u going for 2 keys and end up with people unable to do mechanics its... grrrr

Cortimi

Nocturnalan wrote: »

^Already a CP restriction... 300 for DLCs.

Yeah...because if you got a group of full of CP301s for vet Malatar you would have full confidence in a clear...

idk

Goddess_Althena wrote: »

Fully agree, Vet DLC dungeons are in their own class and giving them a separate queue would certainly help curate a much better experience for those players that wish to do them.
But seeing as how dungeon finder has constantly been broken in some way, shape or form in the many years I've played this game, I won't be holding my breath.

I think a toggle to top in would work better than a separate queue. Of course, either way the rewards should be much greater for the DLC queue or those who opt into it and scaled to the player's access to DLC dungeons. It may be easier to provide a lesser reward for random non-DLC dungeons. Risk vs Reward.

zvavi

idk wrote: »

Goddess_Althena wrote: »

Fully agree, Vet DLC dungeons are in their own class and giving them a separate queue would certainly help curate a much better experience for those players that wish to do them.
But seeing as how dungeon finder has constantly been broken in some way, shape or form in the many years I've played this game, I won't be holding my breath.

I think a toggle to top in would work better than a separate queue. Of course, either way the rewards should be much greater for the DLC queue or those who opt into it and scaled to the player's access to DLC dungeons. It may be easier to provide a lesser reward for random non-DLC dungeons. Risk vs Reward.

I disagree, just like normal and vet has the same rewards, the rewards should remain unchanged. I don't want random [snip] queuing for random all vet for rewards then leaving when they get dlc.

[edited for profanity]

idk

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Goddess_Althena wrote: »

Fully agree, Vet DLC dungeons are in their own class and giving them a separate queue would certainly help curate a much better experience for those players that wish to do them.
But seeing as how dungeon finder has constantly been broken in some way, shape or form in the many years I've played this game, I won't be holding my breath.

I think a toggle to top in would work better than a separate queue. Of course, either way the rewards should be much greater for the DLC queue or those who opt into it and scaled to the player's access to DLC dungeons. It may be easier to provide a lesser reward for random non-DLC dungeons. Risk vs Reward.

I disagree, just like normal and vet has the same rewards, the rewards should remain unchanged. I don't want random - queuing for random all vet for rewards then leaving when they get dlc.

And maybe normal should have a reduced reward as well. Also, players can form their own group for dungeons if you are concerned about who you will get. I no longer queue solo due to the quality of the group I would get. Sometimes we queue with only 3 of us just to see if the GF will surprise us and we end up carrying that fourth person, which is fine because it was our choice.

The reality is the rewards for doing a random GF is to incentivize players using the GF so that when a player (or two or three players) queue for a specific dungeon they may get a group. So if Zos were to permit players to opt-out of DLC dungeons it would be very logical for Zos to increase the incentive for players to opt-in on the DLCs.

Marcus_Thracius

This is all good and dandy - but now they focus on stradia till 2021