A thing you should know about racial changes

Olupajmibanan

Hello my fellow PTS testers.

According to my tests (anyone can test for himself) racial bonuses that give flat amount of stats are additive with food bonus and are not affected by 20% CP multiplier.

258 WD/SD bonuses are fully affected by major and minor sorcery/brutality as well as other WD/SD multipliers.

We are not only being nerfed by changing racials from % to flat value, but even by new placement in the formula (not being affected by CP bonus). That's much more of overall nerf in comparison with live, that we expected.
Not even saying that races with Spell/Weapon damage racial are favored over races with flat stats racials (e.g. in case you are stamwarden and can sustain on Orc, Orc will do a lot more dps than Redguard).

Royaji

Well, not like Gilliam himslef told it's going to work that way...

Oh, he did.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Similarly to the note above, not all of the stats have been converted 1:1 in our adjustment from percentages to flat bonuses. The bonuses to Health, Magicka, and Stamina in particular will be lower compared to previously, since these will not scale with your Champion Point’s bonus of 20% increase. This is because they do not apply to your base stats, similarly to food or 5 piece bonuses. With this in mind, we increased some other areas of racial bonuses to make up for the potential loss of power.

Olupajmibanan

Royaji wrote: »

Well, not like Gilliam himslef told it's going to work that way...

Oh, he did.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Similarly to the note above, not all of the stats have been converted 1:1 in our adjustment from percentages to flat bonuses. The bonuses to Health, Magicka, and Stamina in particular will be lower compared to previously, since these will not scale with your Champion Point’s bonus of 20% increase. This is because they do not apply to your base stats, similarly to food or 5 piece bonuses. With this in mind, we increased some other areas of racial bonuses to make up for the potential loss of power.

Thanks for posting this. Because they did not mention it in official PTS patch note.

Juhasow

Making a tests on PTS without reading patch notes

eso_nya

According to them what u describe is "working as intended". kinda strange as 258 WD/SD is already stronger than 2k maxstat, even without additional boosters.

The setboni rating ignores that 2k health is 1,66 sp compared to 2k mag/stam being 1,82 as health 2~4pc give higher numbers. the dmg boost 2~4 pcs r not equal either. its only a few 0.x% inbetween but they r penetartion > crit > wd/sd > max stat. crit and pen have no dr unless u hit above the hardcap.

Royaji

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Well, not like Gilliam himslef told it's going to work that way...

Oh, he did.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Similarly to the note above, not all of the stats have been converted 1:1 in our adjustment from percentages to flat bonuses. The bonuses to Health, Magicka, and Stamina in particular will be lower compared to previously, since these will not scale with your Champion Point’s bonus of 20% increase. This is because they do not apply to your base stats, similarly to food or 5 piece bonuses. With this in mind, we increased some other areas of racial bonuses to make up for the potential loss of power.

Thanks for posting this. Because they did not mention it in official PTS patch note.

Fair point, it was in a message he posted as reaction to feedback after the patch notes.

satanio

Thanks, so Imperial really is nerfed to the ground. These new passives are just basically doing this: Your Clockwork Citrus Fillet now provides 2000 more Health and Stamina.

Yaay

Dracane

I said it from the very beginning. But the word of someone else had more weight.
Now you see how we have been fooled.

Prior to the pts, this change was sold to us as something glorious. Flat stats would be awesome as they scale with all your %s. Now we get to know that it's just worse in every way. I've expected bad, but it turned out worse.

Minno

Dracane wrote: »

I said it from the very beginning. But the word of someone else had more weight.
Now you see how we have been fooled.

Prior to the pts, this change was sold to us as something glorious. Flat stats would be awesome as they scale with all your %s. Now we get to know that it's just worse in every way. I've expected bad, but it turned out worse.

its a nerf if you min/maxed the percentages bone dry. So builds with 40k health/mag/stam / 6k WD/SD are now 37k/5k. Is this really that bad? Less calcs on the server and less power creep in the game.

Teeba_Shei

Don't love the changes because in most cases damage will be the same or higher while player health will be on average lower. This leads to players getting bursted down faster in pvp.

Dracane

Minno wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I said it from the very beginning. But the word of someone else had more weight.
Now you see how we have been fooled.

Prior to the pts, this change was sold to us as something glorious. Flat stats would be awesome as they scale with all your %s. Now we get to know that it's just worse in every way. I've expected bad, but it turned out worse.

its a nerf if you min/maxed the percentages bone dry. So builds with 40k health/mag/stam / 6k WD/SD are now 37k/5k. Is this really that bad? Less calcs on the server and less power creep in the game.

Yes, it is. It does feel very unsatisfying, that we are getting a tiny amount of magicka that doesn't even scale. At the very least they should let it scale properly, so we don't feel so miserable.

I can't take pride in this pathetic passive. It does not impress me and I would just give it away. That is not a feeling I enjoy.

Anyron

Almost every race was nerfed, some more, some less but its still nerf.

But they keep one thing same as it was before supossed "balance".

Altmers and redguards are now much stronger, not only for aditional spell damage ( altmer,250~) which is much higher than 3% elemental damage, but also for more resources (5700/m for altmers to just use class skill which everyone has and redguards with 11400 stam over minute when using light atack, which is absurd)

So we can say everything is still as it was, same strongest races are now strongest too

Favourite races. #balance

satanio

Anyron wrote: »

Altmers and redguards are now much stronger, not only for aditional spell damage ( altmer,250~) which is much higher than 3% elemental damage, but also for more resources (5700/m for altmers to just use class skill which everyone has and redguards with 11400 stam over minute when using light atack, which is absurd)

Actually redguards, according to this post, are not that dominant in terms of stam PvE dmg even with wheir glorious sustain.

eso_nya wrote: »

According to them what u describe is "working as intended". kinda strange as 258 WD/SD is already stronger than 2k maxstat, even without additional boosters.

The setboni rating ignores that 2k health is 1,66 sp compared to 2k mag/stam being 1,82 as health 2~4pc give higher numbers. the dmg boost 2~4 pcs r not equal either. its only a few 0.x% inbetween but they r penetartion > crit > wd/sd > max stat. crit and pen have no dr unless u hit above the hardcap.

This, this, this. Pity we can't see their offical evaluation of racial passives, that could help clarify things.

Olupajmibanan

Anyron wrote: »

Almost every race was nerfed, some more, some less but its still nerf.

But they keep one thing same as it was before supossed "balance".

Altmers and redguards are now much stronger, not only for aditional spell damage ( altmer,250~) which is much higher than 3% elemental damage, but also for more resources (5700/m for altmers to just use class skill which everyone has and redguards with 11400 stam over minute when using light atack, which is absurd)

So we can say everything is still as it was, same strongest races are now strongest too

Favourite races. #balance

Redguards aren't the strongest race anymore in terms of PvE stam DPS. Both, Orcs and Khajits beat Redguard.

Actually, with the changes to racials they achieved something we wanted for very long and that is having more meaningful race choices.

Look:
- as a healer, you can't go any wrong with either Argonian, Altmer or Breton.
- as a tank, Nord seems to be the best, but you can't go any wrong with Argonian or Redguard.
- as a stam DPS, it is a choice between sustain and dmg. Redguard has the most sustain and the least damage. Orc and Khajit have more damage but less sustain. And finally Dunmer has more damage than Orc but zero sustain.
- as a mag DPS, Altmer might be the best, but you can also choose Breton and switch food or drop absorb magicka enchant in order to achieve similar results to an Altmer. And Khajit can beat Altmer in certain scenarios, especially on a magplar or magblade.

I think that this is very good state of racials now in terms of number of choices.

eso_nya

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Almost every race was nerfed, some more, some less but its still nerf.

But they keep one thing same as it was before supossed "balance".

Altmers and redguards are now much stronger, not only for aditional spell damage ( altmer,250~) which is much higher than 3% elemental damage, but also for more resources (5700/m for altmers to just use class skill which everyone has and redguards with 11400 stam over minute when using light atack, which is absurd)

So we can say everything is still as it was, same strongest races are now strongest too

Favourite races. #balance

Redguards aren't the strongest race anymore in terms of PvE stam DPS. Both, Orcs and Khajits beat Redguard.

Actually, with the changes to racials they achieved something we wanted for very long and that is having more meaningful race choices.

Look:
- as a healer, you can't go any wrong with either Argonian, Altmer or Breton.
- as a tank, Nord seems to be the best, but you can't go any wrong with Argonian or Redguard.
- as a stam DPS, it is a choice between sustain and dmg. Redguard has the most sustain and the least damage. Orc and Khajit have more damage but less sustain. And finally Dunmer has more damage than Orc but zero sustain.
- as a mag DPS, Altmer might be the best, but you can also choose Breton and switch food or drop absorb magicka enchant in order to achieve similar results to an Altmer. And Khajit can beat Altmer in certain scenarios, especially on a magplar or magblade.

I think that this is very good state of racials now in terms of number of choices.

U r right about that, they got "when picking a role, there is more than race to choose from" done.
Top down "pick a role -> pick a class -> pick a race" works.

The thing were this is totally wrong imho, is how character creation is implemented. U cant pick a role there, char creation is oblivious to the existance of roles. all u get is the "play however u want label" on the box.

The first thing u pick is a faction and than a race. There is no warning label "Take care: Aldmeri Dominion does not have a race suporting a tank." From the looks of it, the faction has no impact on your characters performance.

The next thing u pick is the race. There is just a very vague description that does not indicate that there r racial passives nor that they do influence combat efficiency or have an impact on the yet undiscovered "role".

Next thing to pick is the class. Having it show geared templates gives atleast a slight hunch on what the class could be good for. DK s&b is obviously a tank, dual wielding daggers nb melee dd, sorc ranged caster, templar well heavys and a 2hander indicate melee dd, the name suggests healer.

At that point, with "previous mmo" experience there is one conclusion: if the class does not lock u into a race/gender/faction those r purely cosmetical and have no impact on combat performance.

The bottom up design, is terribad. In that way, "any race, any alliance" become pay2win. the argument is here, that at the same playerskill level, w/o ARAA, e.g. an AD tank will always be outperformed by an EP tank.

If char creator would work in a way that u first pick role and than reduces the options for class and picking that reduces the options to "good" races, it would be very, very hard to find a configuration that allows to select some races.

I know there is guides and stuff, but honestly, who on earth installs and launches a game and than spends the next two weeks watching videos and reading guides _before_ creating a char to play?

MartiniDaniels

Juhasow wrote: »

Making a tests on PTS without reading patch notes

That's the spirit! I always do the same, you need to know everything in personal experience, why bother reading anything, it may be a misinformation

MartiniDaniels

Minno wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I said it from the very beginning. But the word of someone else had more weight.
Now you see how we have been fooled.

Prior to the pts, this change was sold to us as something glorious. Flat stats would be awesome as they scale with all your %s. Now we get to know that it's just worse in every way. I've expected bad, but it turned out worse.

its a nerf if you min/maxed the percentages bone dry. So builds with 40k health/mag/stam / 6k WD/SD are now 37k/5k. Is this really that bad? Less calcs on the server and less power creep in the game.

So you think ZOS makes all this changes to reduce server load? why not

Chilly-McFreeze

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Almost every race was nerfed, some more, some less but its still nerf.

But they keep one thing same as it was before supossed "balance".

Altmers and redguards are now much stronger, not only for aditional spell damage ( altmer,250~) which is much higher than 3% elemental damage, but also for more resources (5700/m for altmers to just use class skill which everyone has and redguards with 11400 stam over minute when using light atack, which is absurd)

So we can say everything is still as it was, same strongest races are now strongest too

Favourite races. #balance

Redguards aren't the strongest race anymore in terms of PvE stam DPS. Both, Orcs and Khajits beat Redguard.

Actually, with the changes to racials they achieved something we wanted for very long and that is having more meaningful race choices.

Look:
- as a healer, you can't go any wrong with either Argonian, Altmer or Breton.
- as a tank, Nord seems to be the best, but you can't go any wrong with Argonian or Redguard.
- as a stam DPS, it is a choice between sustain and dmg. Redguard has the most sustain and the least damage. Orc and Khajit have more damage but less sustain. And finally Dunmer has more damage than Orc but zero sustain.
- as a mag DPS, Altmer might be the best, but you can also choose Breton and switch food or drop absorb magicka enchant in order to achieve similar results to an Altmer. And Khajit can beat Altmer in certain scenarios, especially on a magplar or magblade.

I think that this is very good state of racials now in terms of number of choices.

U r right about that, they got "when picking a role, there is more than race to choose from" done.
Top down "pick a role -> pick a class -> pick a race" works.

The thing were this is totally wrong imho, is how character creation is implemented. U cant pick a role there, char creation is oblivious to the existance of roles. all u get is the "play however u want label" on the box.

The first thing u pick is a faction and than a race. There is no warning label "Take care: Aldmeri Dominion does not have a race suporting a tank." From the looks of it, the faction has no impact on your characters performance.

The next thing u pick is the race. There is just a very vague description that does not indicate that there r racial passives nor that they do influence combat efficiency or have an impact on the yet undiscovered "role".

Next thing to pick is the class. Having it show geared templates gives atleast a slight hunch on what the class could be good for. DK s&b is obviously a tank, dual wielding daggers nb melee dd, sorc ranged caster, templar well heavys and a 2hander indicate melee dd, the name suggests healer.

At that point, with "previous mmo" experience there is one conclusion: if the class does not lock u into a race/gender/faction those r purely cosmetical and have no impact on combat performance.

The bottom up design, is terribad. In that way, "any race, any alliance" become pay2win. the argument is here, that at the same playerskill level, w/o ARAA, e.g. an AD tank will always be outperformed by an EP tank.

If char creator would work in a way that u first pick role and than reduces the options for class and picking that reduces the options to "good" races, it would be very, very hard to find a configuration that allows to select some races.

I know there is guides and stuff, but honestly, who on earth installs and launches a game and than spends the next two weeks watching videos and reading guides _before_ creating a char to play?

And who cares about that beside absolute newcommers that refuse to look up the most basic things in a new game?