Tanks are being nerfed again

zvavi

through out the game tanks have been nerfed over and over again, not intentionally, and here it happens again, source is 4.30 patch notes
"Enchants on one handed weapons will now be half the potency of those placed on two handed weapons. This will apply to the damage and effectiveness of enchants, but will not affect the cooldown.
This means an enchant that would normally have a 4 second cooldown and deal 4000 damage on a two handed weapon will deal 2000 Damage, but still have a 4 second cooldown."

rip crusher.

edit 1: well maybe ice staff backbar will now be meta, maybe.

edit 2: i mean, it also affects dual wield stamina builds (and maybe even make two handed viable enough for end game content), but i care more for the tanks taking that hit.

Vildebill

Use an infused destro staff on backbar with blockade, problem solved.

zvavi

it is not really solved, because if there are more mobs than just the boss it might hit the mob instead.
and in addition, for harder content it might be a possibility for great tanks, but for mediocre ones like me it is a heavy hit.

VaranisArano

If the only thing being nerfed is the tank's ability to provide a debuff, I think we're doing fine. Its not like groups don't need someone to still taunt the boss, etc.

MerlinPendragon

Yeah, this is a nerf that's not needed, tanks or otherwise.

Checkmath

For inexperienced tanks this probably means, that an ice staff will be the best way to apply enchants. For the experienced ones a lightning staff. Staves still grant the full enchant value and with blockade it is fairly easy to apply it.

John_Falstaff

@Checkmath , with blockade, it's not as easy to control which target the enchantment will land on. An add easily can end up closer to the tank than boss at the moment of cast, and that means enchant will keep proccing on that add until the blockade is reapplied.

getemshauna

Just add a passive in a s/b skill tree that increases potency and reduces cooldown of the enchant. I guess that would be it.

Checkmath

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Checkmath , with blockade, it's not as easy to control which target the enchantment will land on. An add easily can end up closer to the tank than boss at the moment of cast, and that means enchant will keep proccing on that add until the blockade is reapplied.

Yeah there is that disadvantage using blockade, that the enchant may proc on the wrong target. Still most fights currently have only a few adds, if there are even adds. So many boss fights currently do not even have additional enemies or only for a short period of time. Still in the end this will probably be the best option you have.

Stx

I do not want to be forced into a staff on the back bar to do my job as a tank. That is totally immersion breaking and breaks the archetype of a sword and shield warrior or knight.

If this change makes it through, I guess I will use a 2 hand sword on back bar with caltrops.

CompM4s

Why would anyone run a destro staff on a tank?

paulychan

My warden tank back bars ice, dk lightning. I thought this was already a thing

datgladiatah

People run destro staff back bar all the time, ice staff for tanking or even a lightning staff to provide off balance

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Well, if ZOS is going to go this route for 1H weapons then it should go full Monty for 1H weapons. Not just this one change.

What I mean is it cost the same to make a 1H as it does a 2H both in materials and in enchant cost. The cost of 1H weapons should be half of that of a 2H weapon AND if you are dual wielding the off hand weapon should proc when the main hand weapon procs so we get full value from enchants on both 1H weapons.

This change from ZOS needs to be a lot more than cutting the enchant value in half.

Royaji

CompM4s wrote: »

Why would anyone run a destro staff on a tank?

Well, bad news, destro staff on back bar is used by most higher end tanks for... at least a year at this point? This is not defending this change since it removes ability to have two full power enchants but just wanted to let you know.

Stx wrote: »

I do not want to be forced into a staff on the back bar to do my job as a tank. That is totally immersion breaking and breaks the archetype of a sword and shield warrior or knight.

If this change makes it through, I guess I will use a 2 hand sword on back bar with caltrops.

Bad news for you too. Staff is used in conjuction with WoE which is a weapon ability so it procs your enchants as long as it deals damage. Two-hander with caltrops will have no such functionality since caltrops are not a weapon ability and will not proc any enchants. Two-hander does not have a ground DoT to work that way. Your only other option will be bow with endless hail. Not really knight with a sword and a shield either, huh?

Trinity_Is_My_Name

CompM4s wrote: »

Why would anyone run a destro staff on a tank?

Some builds do. Heck I've seen Resto on bar bar. Lightning provides off balance and can be used to restore Magicka. I've seen quite a few Tanks use Lightning staves. I still prefer S&B both bars but I may rethink it a bit.

Good Tank Streamer by the name of A_re that runs her Tank most of her Streams with a Lightning staff back bar. Very interesting play style but she is quite skilled as well.

satanio

CompM4s wrote: »

Why would anyone run a destro staff on a tank?

In past, the reason was Off Balance and minor vulnerability debuff provided by charged lightning staff with shock enchant and ranged interrupt. Then, it has slightly changed because of enchantment changes - charged trait was switched to infused to get that sweet crusher uptime. It wasn't obligatory I think, as long as you didn't need ranged interrupt, and you could still get very high uptime on crusher with double snb.

And now it will be obligatory, if you don't want to cripple your group .

satanio

Stx wrote: »

I do not want to be forced into a staff on the back bar to do my job as a tank. That is totally immersion breaking and breaks the archetype of a sword and shield warrior or knight.

If this change makes it through, I guess I will use a 2 hand sword on back bar with caltrops.

You would be better with infused bow, I think.
It has some good correlation with destro staff -> Volley vs. Blockade (Volley is smaller and longer, which might be better in some cases)
Venom Arrow vs. Crushing Shock (you have a chance on procing Poison status effect and if you're DK if means 500 stam return, yaaay
And you would gain some speed after your rolls, which is nice I guess? But you would lose some chance to apply status effects and very poor chance to regenerate 1800 magicka.

Thorstienn

Dont think of it as a nerf to tanks... think of it as a nerf to DDs
Non of my tanks NEED crusher, doesn't help my ability to taunt, group mobs, or survive.
A nerf to "buff-monkey" status is not a tank nerf.

Note: I still think they should of just disabled off-hand weapon enchants.

xaraan

I really wish they would have just made the main hand only apply enchants and then it would even out the DW enchant issue without messing up sword and board.

Yeah, we can run destro staff on backbar, but I'm getting really tired of how boring this role has become the last few years. I don't get to decide what gear to run b/c it's ebon/alkosh and now we will be told yet another thing we have to run. I'd love to enjoy some of the new tanking sets or create my own playstyle (whether its sword/board x2, staff x2, or a mix - which is what I do now anyhow, so it won't effect me, but I still don't have to like the change).

Silver_Strider

Idk what you're talking about with Nerf.

I was already using a Crusher Enchanted Lightning (sometimes Ice) Staff back bar with a Charged 1h+S with a Minor Vulnerability Poison equip.

My set up just became meta is all that happened.

BejaProphet

Other people are about to be forced to use your build is what is happening.

ZeroXFF

Thorstienn wrote: »

Dont think of it as a nerf to tanks... think of it as a nerf to DDs
Non of my tanks NEED crusher, doesn't help my ability to taunt, group mobs, or survive.
A nerf to "buff-monkey" status is not a tank nerf.

Note: I still think they should of just disabled off-hand weapon enchants.

It's a nerf to my sustain with the absorb stamina enchant.

mikemacon

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Thorstienn wrote: »

Dont think of it as a nerf to tanks... think of it as a nerf to DDs
Non of my tanks NEED crusher, doesn't help my ability to taunt, group mobs, or survive.
A nerf to "buff-monkey" status is not a tank nerf.

Note: I still think they should of just disabled off-hand weapon enchants.

It's a nerf to my sustain with the absorb stamina enchant.

Heavy attack more and permablock less.

BlazingDynamo

Would it be so hard to just not allow this change to affect sword and board?

Strider__Roshin

CompM4s wrote: »

Why would anyone run a destro staff on a tank?

Crushing shock

ZeroXFF

mikemacon wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Thorstienn wrote: »

Dont think of it as a nerf to tanks... think of it as a nerf to DDs
Non of my tanks NEED crusher, doesn't help my ability to taunt, group mobs, or survive.
A nerf to "buff-monkey" status is not a tank nerf.

Note: I still think they should of just disabled off-hand weapon enchants.

It's a nerf to my sustain with the absorb stamina enchant.

Heavy attack more and permablock less.

I'll take it as an admission that it's a nerf to not just buff bots.

Kesstryl

We know about crusher on backbar with destro staff, but front bar infused weakening with S&B? Will it be worth it, or will we need a different trait and enchant? I'm guessing half the damage given will be better than nothing, but will tanks run something different?

paulsimonps

@Liofa mentioned on the Tanking Class Rep discord that he had done some tests and that Endless Hail gives better up time for Crusher. As well it appears that its easier to keep on the intended target as the Enchantment will proc on the target closes to the center, though that information was mentioned by somebody else. So anyone going Bow back bar Tank?

Narvuntien

The racial changes were a buff to (non argonian) tanks since flat stats are much better for tanks than %.

People are still fighting to see if they can convince ZoS to give Sword and board passive to improve the enchantment potency during this PTS cycle. I think the interesting thing about a passive is that they could still have it be a nerf but not as big a nerf.

The advantage of using a shield is that you get another study and you get a more resources from the enchantment clearly they needed something to incentivise destruction staff useage and this sees kind of like a good way to do that.

BrokenGameMechanics

CompM4s wrote: »

Why would anyone run a destro staff on a tank?

With my current toon I wanted a PvP Frost Mag Warden. I did not want grind my level up on PVE content (again). I opted to level by endless dungeon runs as a Tank with double Ice Staffs. As a tank when you queue up you get in immediately. I have never played a true S&B tank but managed to successfully tank all dungeons, including all DLC, on NORMAL at various levels of "got it done" to "no problem at all" with pug groups.

In the non-DLC dungeons I could get aggro, put out some decent AOE damage, immobilize swaths of ads, even throw out Warden heals. I swear for a number of those PUG runs I was tanking AND putting out more damage and healing (not to mention all the CC's) then rest of the group.

Did all the non-DLC Vet as well.

I really can't say if an experienced Tank could do all the DLC Dungeons on Vet with a Magden with double Frost Staffs, but I would not be surprised in the least if this were the case.