Racial Passives and the Slippery Slope ZOS is rolling down

Inig0

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race because fire damage was so effective because of various buffs like engulfing damaging types like fire enchant and what really sealed its supremacy could be considered destro ult. On the flip side the only race you could play when you wanted to go stam was usually redguard. A few people would force themselves to suffer a bit more and lose sustain for some extra damage by going Khajiit but it was in all the build guides and videos you saw where everyone was basically either a dunmer or a redguard. Tanking and healing on the other hand had a few more acceptable options because none of their passives directly affected total group dps. The race they go with is based on preference and ability to overcome opportunity lost. For tanking Nord imperial lizard all had their strengths that could be weighted against on preference. For healing lizard or breton stuck out as very common picks for people both be just as successful as the other. Im worried ZOS is just worsening the lack of balance between the races.

ZOS like a huge part of their player base was not happy with this. They decided to go in and re-balance races with the intention to follow their mantra - the Elder Scrolls mantra - of play as like and how you like. With that they went in and made sure to give some flare to their races and give it some good ole balance. Unfortunately they failed at this.. miserably. They gutted a few races and gave others things that have no business being a racial passive. The changes they have made is going to result, if left unchanged, in a meta and bis environment where there will be two races at the top of the endgame. Khajiit and Nord.

If youre a dps magicka or stamina you will be a Kitty
If youre a support tank or healer you will be a Nord.

Since the pts has dropped i have kept me eye open for as many parses and tests that i could. End Game Raiding Community discords like TRE make this very easy. From what ive seen Khajiit is doing the best dps for all the magicka races. Khajiits are out dpsing altmers bretons and dunmers alike. Khajiit has typically been seen as a stamina race and it is currently the best option for magicka dps. On the stam side they all doing about the same: Khajiit redguard orc and dunmer. The big difference and final push to say Khajiit is the best for stam is when you introduce any amount of major force which will favor the highest crit chance.

As far as support goes tanking and healing.. there is no argument that can beat ultimate generation from a support role. That will always be the best option because there are few places to gain that. All other stats can be acquired elsewhere and built for when needed. Sustained ult gen however is unique and fits the niche of the support roles to their cores.

This is unacceptable and i promise you if the racials stay as they are that is exactly what the community that endeavors to do the best possible will be stuck with. This is not balance this is a failed attempt at balance and it needs to be readdressed reworked and potentially looked at in a completely different way.




Fortunately ive have a suggestion that can leap us all forward and away from the mess that is balancing races. That is homogenization.. Now the connotation with that is generally negative and i know that i used it to get people uncomfortable so they can realize that they should be because the racial passive system is in dire need of player input.

In short my idea is this:

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system or morph system where the player chooses the benefits (that are BALANCED in each tree) to fit the way they like to play. This also allows people to specialize into a certain spec or branch out into a more hybrid play style.


Here is a rough draft of what i had in mind. Please not that this is just to present the idea values and so on should be considered to be changed. The over all idea though as far as how much of what people should be able to choose in each passive relates to the lovely system ZOS came up with for racial power. Here itll be objectively balanced!


Altmer 2% damage to frost fire shock
Argonian swim speed. disease status resist. 5% healing done
Bosmer reduce stealth detection. 10% increase damage from stealth
Breton 3% reduct cost to mag
Dunmer 5% fire damage
Imperial 1k health
Khajiit 2% spell/ weapon crit
Nord frost resist. 2975 resist spell and physical
Orsimer 6% move speed. 10% reduce sprint cost. 500 heath/ stam
Redguard 1k stam

Racial Passive 1 (Morph into One)
2k stam. 5% stam cost reduction
2k mag. 5% mag cost reduction
2k health. 5% increase healing received

Racial Passive 2 (Morph into One)
258 Weapon Damage
258 Spell Damage
2975 Spell/ Physical Resistance

Racial Passive 3 (Morph into One)
258 Weapon Damage
258 Spell Damage
2975 Spell/ Physical
2k stam
2k mag
2k health
1k stam/ mag
258 stam regen
258 mag regen
129 stam/ mag regen

Kadoin

And yet a meta will still result from that...How unbelievable.

TheRealSniker

wow its as if PvE is a pure Math game, we didnt know that thanks Inig0

TheRealSniker

Just another thread that proves that PvP is the true endgame where choices and understanding of the game really matters.
Going by your suggestions we would be left with no diversity in the game, everything would turn grey and boring.

Emasculate

validifyedneb18_ESO

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

jcm2606

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

If they want to uproot the foundations of an entire race and change what it's intended for, then they need to give out more tokens. Players built their characters based upon the notion that Dunmer was strictly a magicka DPS race that excelled at dealing fire damage, with a bit of stamina on the side.

Reworking Dunmer to be a hybrid race, buffing its stamina capabilities while nerfing its magicka capabilities, is pulling the rug out from under these players, and a single race change token is not going to cut it.

nsmurfer

Taken from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown#latest

susmitds wrote: »

Magicka DPS - Overall races are very close with a difference lesser than 1.5k between top and bottom. The races are ranked below.

1. Breton() - Their insane sustain is capable of infinitely sustaining most rotation even with blue food, making them a serious contender for the best DPS.
2. Altmer() - Overall, they are the most well-rounded magicka DPS dealer this time around. Though Breton beats them in self-buffed DPS by a very small margin, in groups with sustain support, they can easily come out on top.
3. Khajiit() - They are going to become very capable mages this patch onwards, though sustain is a major PITA. In well-coordinated with perfect Warhorns and constant sustain support, they should be able to easily challenge pure magicka races.
4. Dunmer() - They are very capable mages, even though they are not the best anymore. As long as sustain challenges are overcome, they will do fine in any content.
5. Argonian() - In spite of not being a true DD race, they perform fairly well as a DPS unit enough earn a place in any vet content.

Stamina DPS - Stamina DPS as a whole, took a hit with the DW nerf both in terms of damage and sustain from Absorb Stamina Enchant (106.7 stamina recovery loss equivalent). All races are fairly close to each other.

1. Orc() - Orc comes out as the top PvE stamina race with their new weapon damage buff becoming probably the best stamina passive in the game. Their recovery passive buff is twice as high the loss from the DW changes, meaning it cancels out the loss and gives them more stamina return even after that.
2. Bosmer() - Much suprising, Bosmer is the next strongest stamina DD race this time, virtually tying with Orc for the top spot. Their sustain as well as overall resources has undergone an insane buff cancelling out the sustain loss from DW changes and still having additional stamina reserves.
3. Redguard() - They are still the stamina powerhouses they always were. Using weapon spammables, they can easily reclaim top spot. Their sustain buff also cancels out the sustain loss from DW changes.
4. Dunmer() - They are boasting the highest raw damage stamina race in the game, but their sustain is virtually non-existant. In proper groups, they have the potential to take the top DPS spot.
5. Khajiit() - Stat-wise, they are virtually at the same spot in PvE as live. However, they are hit the hardest with the DW changes, as their sustain is the only one that did not get buffed and hence does not cancel out the sustain loss. Additionally, their crit passive was the only one that affected enchants and hence, enchant nerf indirectly affected them the most. Still, they are good DPS and depending on group sustain support and Warhorn frequency, they can do great in vet content.
6. Imperial() - They have huge stamina reserve to play with (more than any other races) but once it runs out, they have no means to refill it. DW sustain changes hit them pretty hard as well, dropping their overall DPS.

Maybe use real data, than decide based on biased emotions

Yasha

jcm2606 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

If they want to uproot the foundations of an entire race and change what it's intended for, then they need to give out more tokens. Players built their characters based upon the notion that Dunmer was strictly a magicka DPS race that excelled at dealing fire damage, with a bit of stamina on the side.

Reworking Dunmer to be a hybrid race, buffing its stamina capabilities while nerfing its magicka capabilities, is pulling the rug out from under these players, and a single race change token is not going to cut it.

This exactly. I can't believe they would just turn races upside down and basically destroy toons that players may have spent years working on. Would have been so much better if they had maintained the race's existing theme/speciality and just added some extra spice to it. The "hybrid" thing in particular really pisses me off, especially when its boosting mutually exclusive damage stats, lol.

ellahellabella

TheRealSniker wrote: »

Just another thread that proves that PvP is the true endgame where choices and understanding of the game really matters.
Going by your suggestions we would be left with no diversity in the game, everything would turn grey and boring.

While I'm not in true agreement with Inig0s suggestions, I'lll state that if you think you think pvp is the true endgame, you need to take off that tinfoil hat.

WoppaBoem

There is always a meta, this is not the responsibility of the game developer but the gamers. The developer could make everyone the same that would remove meta beyond that gamers always find the meta and this will never change in ESO or any other game. Open your eyes to this fact and just let it go, go for meta or not that decision is always up to yourself. I wish you a good day.

WoppaBoem

Yasha wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

If they want to uproot the foundations of an entire race and change what it's intended for, then they need to give out more tokens. Players built their characters based upon the notion that Dunmer was strictly a magicka DPS race that excelled at dealing fire damage, with a bit of stamina on the side.

Reworking Dunmer to be a hybrid race, buffing its stamina capabilities while nerfing its magicka capabilities, is pulling the rug out from under these players, and a single race change token is not going to cut it.

This exactly. I can't believe they would just turn races upside down and basically destroy toons that players may have spent years working on. Would have been so much better if they had maintained the race's existing theme/speciality and just added some extra spice to it. The "hybrid" thing in particular really pisses me off, especially when its boosting mutually exclusive damage stats, lol.

I find the hybrid race awesome and it whats needed in this game. There is more to this game than min/maxers

jcm2606

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

If they want to uproot the foundations of an entire race and change what it's intended for, then they need to give out more tokens. Players built their characters based upon the notion that Dunmer was strictly a magicka DPS race that excelled at dealing fire damage, with a bit of stamina on the side.

Reworking Dunmer to be a hybrid race, buffing its stamina capabilities while nerfing its magicka capabilities, is pulling the rug out from under these players, and a single race change token is not going to cut it.

This exactly. I can't believe they would just turn races upside down and basically destroy toons that players may have spent years working on. Would have been so much better if they had maintained the race's existing theme/speciality and just added some extra spice to it. The "hybrid" thing in particular really pisses me off, especially when its boosting mutually exclusive damage stats, lol.

I find the hybrid race awesome and it whats needed in this game. There is more to this game than min/maxers

Does that mean minmaxers have to spend up to $180 AUD to race change 7 characters, because Zenimax decided to change Dunmer from a strictly magicka race to a hybrid race 5 years into the game's lifespan?

I don't care about whether Dunmer is a hybrid or not. The matter of fact is a race that was previously intended for magicka specs has lost power when it comes to magicka specs, and that power is the entire reason people chose that race when you get past the casual content.

Dunmer can be a hybrid race, so long as either it retains the current power level by buffing magicka in some way, it gets some form of compensation for the loss of power when it comes to magicka specs, or Zenimax gives out more race change tokens.

Vapirko

You just halved orc move speed, no thanks.

Dracane

jcm2606 wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

If they want to uproot the foundations of an entire race and change what it's intended for, then they need to give out more tokens. Players built their characters based upon the notion that Dunmer was strictly a magicka DPS race that excelled at dealing fire damage, with a bit of stamina on the side.

Reworking Dunmer to be a hybrid race, buffing its stamina capabilities while nerfing its magicka capabilities, is pulling the rug out from under these players, and a single race change token is not going to cut it.

This exactly. I can't believe they would just turn races upside down and basically destroy toons that players may have spent years working on. Would have been so much better if they had maintained the race's existing theme/speciality and just added some extra spice to it. The "hybrid" thing in particular really pisses me off, especially when its boosting mutually exclusive damage stats, lol.

I find the hybrid race awesome and it whats needed in this game. There is more to this game than min/maxers

Does that mean minmaxers have to spend up to $180 AUD to race change 7 characters, because Zenimax decided to change Dunmer from a strictly magicka race to a hybrid race 5 years into the game's lifespan?

I don't care about whether Dunmer is a hybrid or not. The matter of fact is a race that was previously intended for magicka specs has lost power when it comes to magicka specs, and that power is the entire reason people chose that race when you get past the casual content.

Dunmer can be a hybrid race, so long as either it retains the current power level by buffing magicka in some way, it gets some form of compensation for the loss of power when it comes to magicka specs, or Zenimax gives out more race change tokens.

Few of us remain at their current power level. All racials would need to be buffed a bit in order to maintain what we have now.

WoppaBoem

jcm2606 wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

If they want to uproot the foundations of an entire race and change what it's intended for, then they need to give out more tokens. Players built their characters based upon the notion that Dunmer was strictly a magicka DPS race that excelled at dealing fire damage, with a bit of stamina on the side.

Reworking Dunmer to be a hybrid race, buffing its stamina capabilities while nerfing its magicka capabilities, is pulling the rug out from under these players, and a single race change token is not going to cut it.

This exactly. I can't believe they would just turn races upside down and basically destroy toons that players may have spent years working on. Would have been so much better if they had maintained the race's existing theme/speciality and just added some extra spice to it. The "hybrid" thing in particular really pisses me off, especially when its boosting mutually exclusive damage stats, lol.

I find the hybrid race awesome and it whats needed in this game. There is more to this game than min/maxers

Does that mean minmaxers have to spend up to $180 AUD to race change 7 characters, because Zenimax decided to change Dunmer from a strictly magicka race to a hybrid race 5 years into the game's lifespan?

I don't care about whether Dunmer is a hybrid or not. The matter of fact is a race that was previously intended for magicka specs has lost power when it comes to magicka specs, and that power is the entire reason people chose that race when you get past the casual content.

Dunmer can be a hybrid race, so long as either it retains the current power level by buffing magicka in some way, it gets some form of compensation for the loss of power when it comes to magicka specs, or Zenimax gives out more race change tokens.

Oke the money sickhole sucks I agree. I hope the difference between the mag classes is not so big. And we need to wait until we go futher in the PTS cycle what they will change. However looking at the changes all high tier races got a hit so its not specifically targetted to all dunmer players. I have seen message about a drop in 1/2% for Dunmer DPS and some say nothing changed.

Do you have a good PTS dummy parse test info comparing with live for the exact same setup? I have nothing seen posted on this yet making me assume the difference is not that big and it suits people better to complain that to present facts. No personal pun intended, I would love to do this test but I am not on PC

jcm2606

Dracane wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

If they want to uproot the foundations of an entire race and change what it's intended for, then they need to give out more tokens. Players built their characters based upon the notion that Dunmer was strictly a magicka DPS race that excelled at dealing fire damage, with a bit of stamina on the side.

Reworking Dunmer to be a hybrid race, buffing its stamina capabilities while nerfing its magicka capabilities, is pulling the rug out from under these players, and a single race change token is not going to cut it.

This exactly. I can't believe they would just turn races upside down and basically destroy toons that players may have spent years working on. Would have been so much better if they had maintained the race's existing theme/speciality and just added some extra spice to it. The "hybrid" thing in particular really pisses me off, especially when its boosting mutually exclusive damage stats, lol.

I find the hybrid race awesome and it whats needed in this game. There is more to this game than min/maxers

Does that mean minmaxers have to spend up to $180 AUD to race change 7 characters, because Zenimax decided to change Dunmer from a strictly magicka race to a hybrid race 5 years into the game's lifespan?

I don't care about whether Dunmer is a hybrid or not. The matter of fact is a race that was previously intended for magicka specs has lost power when it comes to magicka specs, and that power is the entire reason people chose that race when you get past the casual content.

Dunmer can be a hybrid race, so long as either it retains the current power level by buffing magicka in some way, it gets some form of compensation for the loss of power when it comes to magicka specs, or Zenimax gives out more race change tokens.

Few of us remain at their current power level. All racials would need to be buffed a bit in order to maintain what we have now.

None quite like Dunmer, which is the problem. As an Altmer, you're still the go-to race for magicka DPS in general. As a Breton, you're still the go-to race for pure sustain setups. As an Argonian, you're still the go-to race for support roles. As a Dunmer, your power level when it comes to magicka DPS specialising in fire damage has been traded out for power level when it comes to stamina DPS. Every other race more or less came out largely with what they went in with. Dunmer did not.

It is tantamount to buying a cable/satellite/"premium" television service and having it operate for 5 years, then suddenly they switch the entire service to a pseudo free-to-air, claiming it's more cost effective in the long run or whatever, then suggesting you fork out a couple hundred dollars to move to a new service ran by the same company that offers something not quite what you had, but much better than what you currently have.

Bait-and-switch, pulling the rug out, whatever. Either way, you've invested into a product for years, suddenly they switch the very intention of that product to something else, suggesting you buy a similar product to get back to what you had, more or less.

WoppaBoem

jcm2606 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

If they want to uproot the foundations of an entire race and change what it's intended for, then they need to give out more tokens. Players built their characters based upon the notion that Dunmer was strictly a magicka DPS race that excelled at dealing fire damage, with a bit of stamina on the side.

Reworking Dunmer to be a hybrid race, buffing its stamina capabilities while nerfing its magicka capabilities, is pulling the rug out from under these players, and a single race change token is not going to cut it.

This exactly. I can't believe they would just turn races upside down and basically destroy toons that players may have spent years working on. Would have been so much better if they had maintained the race's existing theme/speciality and just added some extra spice to it. The "hybrid" thing in particular really pisses me off, especially when its boosting mutually exclusive damage stats, lol.

I find the hybrid race awesome and it whats needed in this game. There is more to this game than min/maxers

Does that mean minmaxers have to spend up to $180 AUD to race change 7 characters, because Zenimax decided to change Dunmer from a strictly magicka race to a hybrid race 5 years into the game's lifespan?

I don't care about whether Dunmer is a hybrid or not. The matter of fact is a race that was previously intended for magicka specs has lost power when it comes to magicka specs, and that power is the entire reason people chose that race when you get past the casual content.

Dunmer can be a hybrid race, so long as either it retains the current power level by buffing magicka in some way, it gets some form of compensation for the loss of power when it comes to magicka specs, or Zenimax gives out more race change tokens.

Few of us remain at their current power level. All racials would need to be buffed a bit in order to maintain what we have now.

None quite like Dunmer, which is the problem. As an Altmer, you're still the go-to race for magicka DPS in general. As a Breton, you're still the go-to race for pure sustain setups. As an Argonian, you're still the go-to race for support roles. As a Dunmer, your power level when it comes to magicka DPS specialising in fire damage has been traded out for power level when it comes to stamina DPS. Every other race more or less came out largely with what they went in with. Dunmer did not.

It is tantamount to buying a cable/satellite/"premium" television service and having it operate for 5 years, then suddenly they switch the entire service to a pseudo free-to-air, claiming it's more cost effective in the long run or whatever, then suggesting you fork out a couple hundred dollars to move to a new service ran by the same company that offers something not quite what you had, but much better than what you currently have.

Bait-and-switch, pulling the rug out, whatever. Either way, you've invested into a product for years, suddenly they switch the very intention of that product to something else, suggesting you buy a similar product to get back to what you had, more or less.

Lol like the race passives make up the whole game. Looking at the message of yours, I am worried for you. I will pray for you today my mate.....

DjMuscleboy02

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

Disregarding the fact that you're completely wrong about Altmer being the best magic race, you've completely missed the point.

Right now, pretty much every PvE build (which is the topic as per OP) has essentially 2 race options for DPS, and 3 for support. If changes go live as they are, you'll most likely see 1 DPS race across any build and 1 support race. Which is exactly what ZOS was trying to prevent from happening with these changes.

Inigo's proposed changes, which I didn't think needed to be explained but clearly you aren't capable of separating simple examples from absolute figures, aim to give players the ability to play any race and then choose passives from there. Obviously giving one race 5% fire damage is too strong, but something along those lines would be acceptable. And from there you'd just select the passives you'd like -- and yes, they would most likely fall into a meta -- but there would still be freedom and diversity in racial selection.

grannas211

I knew the word Dunmer would be in the first sentence before I even opened

LiquidPony

TheRealSniker wrote: »

Just another thread that proves that PvP is the true endgame where choices and understanding of the game really matters.
Going by your suggestions we would be left with no diversity in the game, everything would turn grey and boring.

lol shut up

Foxic

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

Dunmer was definitely in general a better Magicka DPS than altmer. With altmer being better in a few certain situations. And it has been for a long time now.

Plenty of us spent hundreds of hours and tons of in game and IRL money on these characters because they were the best and zos suddenly changes them to be the third or possibly fourth choice for Magicka DPS. And how do they make it up to us? By giving me a single race change token.

That will surely help me with my 6 dunmer I have.

yodased

Racial balance shifting into kittehs being the best during the year of the kitteh is surprising to anyone?

KITTEH POWER2019

JinMori

TheRealSniker wrote: »

Just another thread that proves that PvP is the true endgame where choices and understanding of the game really matters.
Going by your suggestions we would be left with no diversity in the game, everything would turn grey and boring.

So you don;t think mathematical understanding of the game, and which race is overall better doesn't count as understanding of the game, and that pvp is completely cut off from that?

This is stupid.

Matter of fact is that there is a meta even in pvp, there are some sets, and some races that are better, just because they buff more, take 2 equally skilled players, but one of them is using a non meta build, and the other is, and he will always win, just because of math.

Zos can try to close the gap, but there will never be true perfect balance, unless you make all races the same.

Faulgor

Inig0 wrote: »

Fortunately ive have a suggestion that can leap us all forward and away from the mess that is balancing races. That is homogenization.

No.

validifyedneb18_ESO

jcm2606 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Inig0 wrote: »

For a very long time Dunmer reigned supreme as the best magicka race

Ok let me stop you there. No.
Altmer was/is the best Magicka Race for DD, with the rare case of very fire-centric DK builds.
Breton makes the best healer because they where/are sustain kings.

I understand people are pissed that one of the major magicka players is as good as a stam race now with ok-ish magicka capabilities (Slightly lower than Altmer with 0 sustain), but im enjoying my PTS Dunmer stamblade a lot.

The game needs to change or it will get stale. As someone who was getting bored of the game of late, im now excited again to build my new PTS character on live when these updates roll out.

Inig0 wrote: »

Give each race some lore friendly passive that does have some combat effectiveness. However that effectiveness needs to be very small and minor to a class/ spec's overall performance. The 3 remaining passives will be treated like a tree system

They have this. Its the first passive, and its unchanged. Altmer get more experience and faster Destro Skilline progress,
Dunmer get Dual Wield Progression and 50% immunity to environmental lava (Not to mention the huge fire resistance, with fire being the most common magic damage type in the game, and this also eats into the Dunmers combat prowess so if you really want it to be good then you could argue to remove that, which would make dunmer be even less unique)

The selective passives was what I thought we would get, and it could be done well.

If they want to uproot the foundations of an entire race and change what it's intended for, then they need to give out more tokens. Players built their characters based upon the notion that Dunmer was strictly a magicka DPS race that excelled at dealing fire damage, with a bit of stamina on the side.

Reworking Dunmer to be a hybrid race, buffing its stamina capabilities while nerfing its magicka capabilities, is pulling the rug out from under these players, and a single race change token is not going to cut it.

The whole pulling the rug argument I totally understand. But its not like Dunmer was the unquestionable king of Magica. The nerfs are a bit harsh, with only mid dps and no sustain as payoff, work could be done here before it gets to live. Im just saying I like the ability to play Stamina Dunmer, and people do have to accept (to some degree) that whats good today may not be as good tommorow. This is particularly true for cases where you're talking about the top meta - ie.. "The things that are in line for nerfs"

Lughlongarm

Seems to me that Dunmer is still top tier pick for magicka pvp builds , especially for vemp builds.

Shacklebreaker for example is a very popular off-set for magicka builds, paired very well with sets like Necropotence. Dummer already got the stats value build in and can skip Shacklebreaker for a set like Bright-Throat's Boast resulting in more damage and sustain compared to Altmer running with Shacklebreaker .

TheRealSniker

JinMori wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

Just another thread that proves that PvP is the true endgame where choices and understanding of the game really matters.
Going by your suggestions we would be left with no diversity in the game, everything would turn grey and boring.

So you don;t think mathematical understanding of the game, and which race is overall better doesn't count as understanding of the game, and that pvp is completely cut off from that?

This is stupid.

Do you really think PvP requires any less of mathematical understanding of the game ?

OneWhomWaits

The purpose of this thread was to highlight to ZOS that the racial balance they are attempting has failed.

That statement is solidly based on cmx results from the test server. I have seen the parses, op has seen the parses, many of us have run the numbers and parsed ourselves. To the individual above who said base it on math - we are. We've built spreadsheets, we've done the tests, we've pushed the data around, we've tried to run it in parsing situations, we've tried pushing it around with some of the common buffs and debuffs - (such as major force from warhorn).

The message is simple and based on data from the pts.

Please go back to the drawing board because the result of the changes at this time is that there is a clear meta that is broken strong.

Inig0

nsmurfer wrote: »

Taken from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown#latest

susmitds wrote: »

Magicka DPS - Overall races are very close with a difference lesser than 1.5k between top and bottom. The races are ranked below.

1. Breton() - Their insane sustain is capable of infinitely sustaining most rotation even with blue food, making them a serious contender for the best DPS.
2. Altmer() - Overall, they are the most well-rounded magicka DPS dealer this time around. Though Breton beats them in self-buffed DPS by a very small margin, in groups with sustain support, they can easily come out on top.
3. Khajiit() - They are going to become very capable mages this patch onwards, though sustain is a major PITA. In well-coordinated with perfect Warhorns and constant sustain support, they should be able to easily challenge pure magicka races.
4. Dunmer() - They are very capable mages, even though they are not the best anymore. As long as sustain challenges are overcome, they will do fine in any content.
5. Argonian() - In spite of not being a true DD race, they perform fairly well as a DPS unit enough earn a place in any vet content.

Stamina DPS - Stamina DPS as a whole, took a hit with the DW nerf both in terms of damage and sustain from Absorb Stamina Enchant (106.7 stamina recovery loss equivalent). All races are fairly close to each other.

1. Orc() - Orc comes out as the top PvE stamina race with their new weapon damage buff becoming probably the best stamina passive in the game. Their recovery passive buff is twice as high the loss from the DW changes, meaning it cancels out the loss and gives them more stamina return even after that.
2. Bosmer() - Much suprising, Bosmer is the next strongest stamina DD race this time, virtually tying with Orc for the top spot. Their sustain as well as overall resources has undergone an insane buff cancelling out the sustain loss from DW changes and still having additional stamina reserves.
3. Redguard() - They are still the stamina powerhouses they always were. Using weapon spammables, they can easily reclaim top spot. Their sustain buff also cancels out the sustain loss from DW changes.
4. Dunmer() - They are boasting the highest raw damage stamina race in the game, but their sustain is virtually non-existant. In proper groups, they have the potential to take the top DPS spot.
5. Khajiit() - Stat-wise, they are virtually at the same spot in PvE as live. However, they are hit the hardest with the DW changes, as their sustain is the only one that did not get buffed and hence does not cancel out the sustain loss. Additionally, their crit passive was the only one that affected enchants and hence, enchant nerf indirectly affected them the most. Still, they are good DPS and depending on group sustain support and Warhorn frequency, they can do great in vet content.
6. Imperial() - They have huge stamina reserve to play with (more than any other races) but once it runs out, they have no means to refill it. DW sustain changes hit them pretty hard as well, dropping their overall DPS.

Maybe use real data, than decide based on biased emotions

Its actually really interesting to see that because its very wrong. I understand that not presenting information warrants this sort of response but the data isnt mine so i didnt include it. You can however go to youtube and search liko wraths stone. There youll find the top dps in the game comparing all the races in a very objective way thats fair to each race. Keep an eye out on his youtube and drop hin a sub. He always thoroughly goes through the PTS to get an idea of what is optimal. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=liko+wrathstone

In all of his parses Khajiit pulled ahead by a decent margin sometimes by a smaller margin. In all cases though it was ahead without any source of Major Force. The moment you introduce any amount of major force (All the top guilds provide about 55%-75% depending on the fight.) youll see Khajiit pull way ahead because their passive, 8% crit, gets amped up more than any other passive with something like that. Even the resources gained from using warhorn is going to be less of a dps increase than before.

This isnt my emotion or feeling. This is me trying to let everyone know that next patch, if all stays the same, if youre not a Khajiit youre a dps lose.

Inig0

grannas211 wrote: »

I knew the word Dunmer would be in the first sentence before I even opened

You knew that because it has the highest point of contention because its suffered the largest shift in race identity. I dont like dunmers i just dont like one race being the best at everything more.