Stealth, Wood Elves and the Breaking of Lore

fokusnik

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The Khajiit hiding bonus is 5 now, and a sneaking khajiit will see a sneaking bosmer before the bosmer sees the khajiit. So, no, Bosmer don't outstealth everyone and this fails even if it is meant as a counter to the Khajiit's ability to hide.

Also, what other race has even part of a passive that is only useful in PVP?

Exactly. And keeping in mind that the Khajiit and Bosmer are in the same faction in ESO, this PvP only partial passive becomes even less useful.

TheManimal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?

Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?

Since cloak isn't affected in the slightest way, this is not affected either. At all.

TheManimal wrote: »

I don’t really care about the stealth change for these races but for the sake of argument stealth detection gives bosmer the ability to out stealth other races. If you can see someone in stealth before they see you then you just out stealthed them. This means you can remain in stealth while the other party wonderers what pulled them out giving you the edge on stealth. So in a way this for sure makes you more stealthy as it gives you a better idea of your surroundings and allows you to get the drop on others trying to do the same thing.

The Khajiit hiding bonus is 5 now, and a sneaking khajiit will see a sneaking bosmer before the bosmer sees the khajiit. So, no, Bosmer don't outstealth everyone and this fails even if it is meant as a counter to the Khajiit's ability to hide.

Also, what other race has even part of a passive that is only useful in PVP?

You will still see khajiit in stealth better then any race they will just have a smaller bubble then other races because like you said they are also a sneaky race. You’re are missing my point entirely. I’m trying to tell you that this is in fact Replacing a stealth passive with another different type of stealth passive. It still follows the whole stealthy lore thing that khajiit and bosmer share so The name of this thred is false. The change by no means breaks any lore whatsoever. As far as it being only useful in pvp, that has nothing to do with anything I’m trying to clairify. This (as far as the tread name suggests) is about lore not ditribution of useful passives amongst races. But if you want my opinion then I’ll tell you. I like the changes to bosmer because we will now have same stam as imperial and Redguard, we still have the highest bonus to stam recovery, and to top it off we got a 20% speed buff after dodging.

fokusnik

TheManimal wrote: »

I’m trying to tell you that this is in fact Replacing a stealth passive with another different type of stealth passive. It still follows the whole stealthy lore thing that khajiit and bosmer share so The name of this thred is false. The change by no means breaks any lore whatsoever. As far as it being only useful in pvp, that has nothing to do with anything I’m trying to clairify. This (as far as the tread name suggests) is about lore not ditribution of useful passives amongst races. But if you want my opinion then I’ll tell you. I like the changes to bosmer because we will now have same stam as imperial and Redguard, we still have the highest bonus to stam recovery, and to top it off we got a 20% speed buff after dodging.

It might be what you are trying to say, but it is still incorrect. The title of the thread is accurate. Stealth detection is not the same as being stealthy. An art critic might know good art when he sees it but that doesn't mean there is a lick of talent in making good art. A radar system might be able to locate a stealth aircraft, but that doesn't mean the radar system is therefore stealthy.

The Bosmer according to lore are stealthy and no amount of dancing around it will make that less true. The suggested changes needlessly break lore. As for whether other aspects of the passive are good, no argument, I like it, but not with stealth being stripped out and replaced with detection.

Edit: If this was truly a case of swapping one stealth ability for another, such as giving the Bosmer a passive like the Vampire class 4 passive where there is no movement speed penalty and a decreased time to enter stealth, we would be having a completely different conversation as that would not be making the race non-stealthy. But being able to observe a skill and being able to perform the skill are not the same thing.

NordSwordnBoard

The detection bonus sounds bad, especially as its a total waste in PvE. They need to choose something that is still useful in PvE and stealth related. There are other options, hopefully we see a different one come out in the PTS.

TheManimal

fokusnik wrote: »

TheManimal wrote: »

I’m trying to tell you that this is in fact Replacing a stealth passive with another different type of stealth passive. It still follows the whole stealthy lore thing that khajiit and bosmer share so The name of this thred is false. The change by no means breaks any lore whatsoever. As far as it being only useful in pvp, that has nothing to do with anything I’m trying to clairify. This (as far as the tread name suggests) is about lore not ditribution of useful passives amongst races. But if you want my opinion then I’ll tell you. I like the changes to bosmer because we will now have same stam as imperial and Redguard, we still have the highest bonus to stam recovery, and to top it off we got a 20% speed buff after dodging.

It might be what you are trying to say, but it is still incorrect. The title of the thread is accurate. Stealth detection is not the same as being stealthy. An art critic might know good art when he sees it but that doesn't mean there is a lick of talent in making good art. A radar system might be able to locate a stealth aircraft, but that doesn't mean the radar system is therefore stealthy.

The Bosmer according to lore are stealthy and no amount of dancing around it will make that less true. The suggested changes needlessly break lore. As for whether other aspects of the passive are good, no argument, I like it, but not with stealth being stripped out and replaced with detection.

Edit: If this was truly a case of swapping one stealth ability for another, such as giving the Bosmer a passive like the Vampire class 4 passive where there is no movement speed penalty and a decreased time to enter stealth, we would be having a completely different conversation as that would not be making the race non-stealthy. But being able to observe a skill and being able to perform the skill are not the same thing.

Knowing where the target you are sneaking by is located is just as important as staying out of sight in fact you need to know where to avoid to successfully stealth in the first place. I can walk in the shadows and be silent but if I don’t know where the people I’m trying to sneak by are none of that matters I could literally walk right into them. Those examples suck no offense but a radar is incapable of any stealth in the first place whereas a player can sneak regardless of race but bosmer can simply detect hidden threats before its to late allowing you to sneak away and remain in sneak. The art thing is lost on me I have no idea what your trying to prove with this. Sneak detection is a way to enhance your stealth capabilities by seeing things before you are detected by said thing, something that no other race has that improves your stealth. The simple fact that this passive is a thing proves my point which is: bosmer and khajiit both have tools built in for stealth so they hold to true to a lore perspective.

Cundu_Ertur

TheManimal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?

Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?

Since cloak isn't affected in the slightest way, this is not affected either. At all.

TheManimal wrote: »

I don’t really care about the stealth change for these races but for the sake of argument stealth detection gives bosmer the ability to out stealth other races. If you can see someone in stealth before they see you then you just out stealthed them. This means you can remain in stealth while the other party wonderers what pulled them out giving you the edge on stealth. So in a way this for sure makes you more stealthy as it gives you a better idea of your surroundings and allows you to get the drop on others trying to do the same thing.

The Khajiit hiding bonus is 5 now, and a sneaking khajiit will see a sneaking bosmer before the bosmer sees the khajiit. So, no, Bosmer don't outstealth everyone and this fails even if it is meant as a counter to the Khajiit's ability to hide.

Also, what other race has even part of a passive that is only useful in PVP?

...
I’m trying to tell you that this is in fact Replacing a stealth passive with another different type of stealth passive. It still follows the whole stealthy lore thing that khajiit and bosmer share so The name of this thred is false. The change by no means breaks any lore whatsoever.
...

No. This is replacing a stealth passive with a detection passive. They are two distinct things. Making a sword is a distinct from using a sword. Just because the sword is the same sword doesn't make the creation and use of that sword the same action. In the same way stealth is a distinct thing from seeing through stealth. So, no, absolutely no, it does NOT follow lore in the slightest degree. If anything, it would be more lore-friendly to have Khajiit have the detection passive since the Bosmer in lore and prior iterations of the world did not have anything equivalent to the Khajiiti 'night eye' ability. But even in that case this should be in addition to and not instead of a stealth bonus.

TheManimal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

TheManimal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?

Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?

Since cloak isn't affected in the slightest way, this is not affected either. At all.

TheManimal wrote: »

I don’t really care about the stealth change for these races but for the sake of argument stealth detection gives bosmer the ability to out stealth other races. If you can see someone in stealth before they see you then you just out stealthed them. This means you can remain in stealth while the other party wonderers what pulled them out giving you the edge on stealth. So in a way this for sure makes you more stealthy as it gives you a better idea of your surroundings and allows you to get the drop on others trying to do the same thing.

The Khajiit hiding bonus is 5 now, and a sneaking khajiit will see a sneaking bosmer before the bosmer sees the khajiit. So, no, Bosmer don't outstealth everyone and this fails even if it is meant as a counter to the Khajiit's ability to hide.

Also, what other race has even part of a passive that is only useful in PVP?

...
I’m trying to tell you that this is in fact Replacing a stealth passive with another different type of stealth passive. It still follows the whole stealthy lore thing that khajiit and bosmer share so The name of this thred is false. The change by no means breaks any lore whatsoever.
...

No. This is replacing a stealth passive with a detection passive. They are two distinct things. Making a sword is a distinct from using a sword. Just because the sword is the same sword doesn't make the creation and use of that sword the same action. In the same way stealth is a distinct thing from seeing through stealth. So, no, absolutely no, it does NOT follow lore in the slightest degree. If anything, it would be more lore-friendly to have Khajiit have the detection passive since the Bosmer in lore and prior iterations of the world did not have anything equivalent to the Khajiiti 'night eye' ability. But even in that case this should be in addition to and not instead of a stealth bonus.

I have made my point clear. Bosmer still have a passive that helps them stealth more efficiently. They still have something that ties them in with there stealthy history. With that said there is nothing lore breaking about what they did to this race.

fokusnik

TheManimal wrote: »

I have made my point clear. Bosmer still have a passive that helps them stealth more efficiently. They still have something that ties them in with there stealthy history. With that said there is nothing lore breaking about what they did to this race.

Well, there is not much point arguing with someone who doesn't understand that there is a difference between writing and reading just because they both involve words and books. And I'm sorry if that sounds condescending, but being able to play music and listen to music are not the same skills and one doesn't necessarily make you a musician. In this proposed update, the Bosmer will be good at listening to music and the Khajiit will be musicians and despite your best efforts so say otherwise that is lore-breaking.

Cundu_Ertur

fokusnik wrote: »

TheManimal wrote: »

I have made my point clear. Bosmer still have a passive that helps them stealth more efficiently. They still have something that ties them in with there stealthy history. With that said there is nothing lore breaking about what they did to this race.

Well, there is not much point arguing with someone who doesn't understand that there is a difference between writing and reading just because they both involve words and books. And I'm sorry if that sounds condescending, but being able to play music and listen to music are not the same skills and one doesn't necessarily make you a musician. In this proposed update, the Bosmer will be good at listening to music and the Khajiit will be musicians and despite your best efforts so say otherwise that is lore-breaking.

I read your post, now I am an author.

Jayne_Doe

Haven't read all the comments yet, but your post is exactly what I was thinking when reading about the new racial passives.

In the original posting of these changes in the Combat section, they said something to this effect in the notes for the Bosmer changes: most enemies of Tamriel can't be bothered to sneak, so stealth as a gameplay mechanic isn't always useful. Which basically means that stealth detection is utterly useless outside of PvP. I don't even think I'll take this passive for my Bosmer, since she's an archer and gets that dodge roll movement speed bonus from her bow passive.

And I agree that being able to mask your presence from your prey is AS IMPORTANT as being able to detect your prey.

Stealth is a playstyle, and they've basically limited anyone who wants to play a stealthy character to having to roll a Khajiit. Instead of giving us more options for various playstyles, they've limited players in this case.

DeathlurkZ

I agree, if any class should get stealth detection (which none should since it is useless), it should be the cat, since it goes with the lore.

Bosmers are well-known thieves, which are stealthy.
(source: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer)

"Khajiit frequently have had to deal with the worry of being kidnapped and sold into slavery, especially in Morrowind, so they have to take self-defense seriously."
(source: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit)

I can see this causing the Khajiit to be more aware of their surroundings (stealth detection) than other races.

"Khajiit have developed a natural proficiency in stealth, and have the added benefit of native night vision."
(source: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit)

Night vision, another reason they better qualify for stealth detection.

Although, I do not think the stealth detection should be implemented in any racial passive and I do not see a problem with two races having a similar passive.

TLDR:
I agree, replacing the stealth passive with this stealth detection garbage is lore breaking.

TheManimal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

TheManimal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?

Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?

Since cloak isn't affected in the slightest way, this is not affected either. At all.

TheManimal wrote: »

I don’t really care about the stealth change for these races but for the sake of argument stealth detection gives bosmer the ability to out stealth other races. If you can see someone in stealth before they see you then you just out stealthed them. This means you can remain in stealth while the other party wonderers what pulled them out giving you the edge on stealth. So in a way this for sure makes you more stealthy as it gives you a better idea of your surroundings and allows you to get the drop on others trying to do the same thing.

The Khajiit hiding bonus is 5 now, and a sneaking khajiit will see a sneaking bosmer before the bosmer sees the khajiit. So, no, Bosmer don't outstealth everyone and this fails even if it is meant as a counter to the Khajiit's ability to hide.

Also, what other race has even part of a passive that is only useful in PVP?

...
I’m trying to tell you that this is in fact Replacing a stealth passive with another different type of stealth passive. It still follows the whole stealthy lore thing that khajiit and bosmer share so The name of this thred is false. The change by no means breaks any lore whatsoever.
...

No. This is replacing a stealth passive with a detection passive. They are two distinct things. Making a sword is a distinct from using a sword. Just because the sword is the same sword doesn't make the creation and use of that sword the same action. In the same way stealth is a distinct thing from seeing through stealth. So, no, absolutely no, it does NOT follow lore in the slightest degree. If anything, it would be more lore-friendly to have Khajiit have the detection passive since the Bosmer in lore and prior iterations of the world did not have anything equivalent to the Khajiiti 'night eye' ability. But even in that case this should be in addition to and not instead of a stealth bonus.

I know the difference between these things and to assume I don’t is completely idiotic. You are insulting sir and your point is invaild. Just based on how your acting in response to my point makes me have even less faith in your ability to analyze the changes coming. I will have no more of this pointlessness.

Temeraire507

I have read through this thread with mixed feelings and therefor I am also going to add my point of view here.

At first I want to say that I am all for giving bosmer their sneaking passive back. It would not hurt anyone imo. However I didn't feel good about some things I've read here.

The whole 'outstealth' thing depends on how both players are equipped. Given you are not using the sentry set and you are a bosmer the possible distances for you to see an enemy are anything between 0 and 9.5 meters. With sentry it is 2 - 12.5 meters. The distance for enemies to see you is going to be 4 - 12.5 meters, given you don't wear night terror or night mothers embrace in PvP. If you are wearing both it reduces to 1.5 - 5.5 meters. In the end it can have its use but still running into a stealthed player is unlikely to happen and always bears the chance of a fight since most players will try to find and eliminate you when you detect them without being detected yourself. And the distance is not that high. One unlucky ability thrown at your position and your advantage turns into a disadvantage.

Also, I consider the use of the phrase "lore breaking" to be out of place here. For me a lot of stuff has to happen until I call something the people that create this lore do, lore breaking. They need to basically contradict what they established as lore before and that is not what they were doing here. It would be lore breaking to me if the bosmer fell from the trees all through Valenwood because they lost their ability to climb or if they established lore that revealed bosmer to be glowing beacons for the eyes of all other races. Or if they were shown incapable of wielding bows because of their anatomy. If a single bosmer or a group of bosmer or most bosmer throughout the timeperiod where ESO takes place would be incapable of sneaking well (which is not the case imo) that is all reasonable and can be explained with some new lore entries or just the basic logic that not everyone is the same.

However as far as I remember (I'm unsure about this please correct me if I'm wrong) the bosmer had no actual bonuses to sneaking at all in the previous games. They had a bonus to their starting level in sneaking but they were just as good as anyone else if maxed out, so in ESO the analog bonus would be a bonus to how fast they gain experience with sneaking (the best analogy would be legerdemain or medium armor). If this is wrong that point is invalid but I really can't remember them to be better than anyone else.

Saying that not granting them their higher stealth affinity as some kind of passive is lore breaking is the same as saying it is lore breaking to not make them able to vanish near a tree or to tame animals as passives. Both are abilities described in the lore but both do not fit ESO's concept and that's it. It is closer to lore breaking, that bare handed khajiit can't use their claws in combat or see everything brighter than the other races at night or at dark places than not giving bosmer something stealthy in my opinion and I did not see anyone demanding one of these things to be added.

Another fact some people here seem to forget is that they are still capable of normal sneaking. So the "a hunter who gets seen by his pray is a bad hunter" and "being able to detect stealth does not make a radar stealthy" points are a bit off. The Bosmer can sneak and they can use their wider detection radius from sneak.

I believe the new passive (apart from the fact that I consider the detection part to be utterly useless) to be a very nice, lore comforting aspect that keeps the hunter theme up.

The only point I have seen here that I consider to be valid is, that this passive is useless in PvE.

I do also believe the detection passive (passive-part if you like that more) to be relatively useless in PvP. People either attack from afar or they use cloak in most situations. Sneaking is just a way to pass an area unseen or to hide from the enemy to wait for a moment to strike. Sneaking is also unlikely to help you escape a fight (well, it surely is important but only after the enemy has lost sight of you and then the detection radius is unlikely to matter). Because of this the new passive is not going to be much better than the old one for PVP. If no one sneaks you can't detect someone who is sneaking. The only scenario I can imagine is that you are inside a structure of interest to you and you know enemies are hiding in stealth around you or expect enemies to hide somewhere. Still it is likely to be more effective to throw AoE's at certain areas or use detect potions, expert hunter or radiant magelight with the AoE probably being the safest option, since it should definitely remove your enemies from stealth (assuming you are using an ability that can't be dodged by it of course).

All races can do all stealthy tasks in this game. Only if you want to be able to almost literally stand on someones toes without that person noticing you you need to play a khajiit now.

I would like the old bonus to be added back into the passive. That would make khajiit better at sneaking in general but would give bosmer the opportunity to find enemies easier at the cost of their sneaking capabilities. But I don't feel this to be something that absolutely needs to be done.

Cundu_Ertur

TheManimal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

TheManimal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?

Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?

Since cloak isn't affected in the slightest way, this is not affected either. At all.

TheManimal wrote: »

I don’t really care about the stealth change for these races but for the sake of argument stealth detection gives bosmer the ability to out stealth other races. If you can see someone in stealth before they see you then you just out stealthed them. This means you can remain in stealth while the other party wonderers what pulled them out giving you the edge on stealth. So in a way this for sure makes you more stealthy as it gives you a better idea of your surroundings and allows you to get the drop on others trying to do the same thing.

The Khajiit hiding bonus is 5 now, and a sneaking khajiit will see a sneaking bosmer before the bosmer sees the khajiit. So, no, Bosmer don't outstealth everyone and this fails even if it is meant as a counter to the Khajiit's ability to hide.

Also, what other race has even part of a passive that is only useful in PVP?

...
I’m trying to tell you that this is in fact Replacing a stealth passive with another different type of stealth passive. It still follows the whole stealthy lore thing that khajiit and bosmer share so The name of this thred is false. The change by no means breaks any lore whatsoever.
...

No. This is replacing a stealth passive with a detection passive. They are two distinct things. Making a sword is a distinct from using a sword. Just because the sword is the same sword doesn't make the creation and use of that sword the same action. In the same way stealth is a distinct thing from seeing through stealth. So, no, absolutely no, it does NOT follow lore in the slightest degree. If anything, it would be more lore-friendly to have Khajiit have the detection passive since the Bosmer in lore and prior iterations of the world did not have anything equivalent to the Khajiiti 'night eye' ability. But even in that case this should be in addition to and not instead of a stealth bonus.

I know the difference between these things and to assume I don’t is completely idiotic. You are insulting sir and your point is invaild. Just based on how your acting in response to my point makes me have even less faith in your ability to analyze the changes coming. I will have no more of this pointlessness.

You clearly do not if you can consider taking away stealth completely to be the same as giving a bonus to it. My point is entirely valid. It was the first time you replied, and remains so now.


Your first reply in case you've forgotten it or decide to edit it:

TheManimal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

TheManimal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?

Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?

Since cloak isn't affected in the slightest way, this is not affected either. At all.

TheManimal wrote: »

I don’t really care about the stealth change for these races but for the sake of argument stealth detection gives bosmer the ability to out stealth other races. If you can see someone in stealth before they see you then you just out stealthed them. This means you can remain in stealth while the other party wonderers what pulled them out giving you the edge on stealth. So in a way this for sure makes you more stealthy as it gives you a better idea of your surroundings and allows you to get the drop on others trying to do the same thing.

The Khajiit hiding bonus is 5 now, and a sneaking khajiit will see a sneaking bosmer before the bosmer sees the khajiit. So, no, Bosmer don't outstealth everyone and this fails even if it is meant as a counter to the Khajiit's ability to hide.

Also, what other race has even part of a passive that is only useful in PVP?

...
I’m trying to tell you that this is in fact Replacing a stealth passive with another different type of stealth passive. It still follows the whole stealthy lore thing that khajiit and bosmer share so The name of this thred is false. The change by no means breaks any lore whatsoever.
...

No. This is replacing a stealth passive with a detection passive. They are two distinct things. Making a sword is a distinct from using a sword. Just because the sword is the same sword doesn't make the creation and use of that sword the same action. In the same way stealth is a distinct thing from seeing through stealth. So, no, absolutely no, it does NOT follow lore in the slightest degree. If anything, it would be more lore-friendly to have Khajiit have the detection passive since the Bosmer in lore and prior iterations of the world did not have anything equivalent to the Khajiiti 'night eye' ability. But even in that case this should be in addition to and not instead of a stealth bonus.

I have made my point clear. Bosmer still have a passive that helps them stealth more efficiently. They still have something that ties them in with there stealthy history. With that said there is nothing lore breaking about what they did to this race.

Which remains incorrect. This change removes all bonuses to stealth, which is directly counter to lore; and adds a detection bonus that is not contrary to lore, but not explicitly supported by it, either.

No matter how much you wave your hands, and accuse me of being insulting, or whatever else; the fact will remain: detection is not stealth. It will never be stealth. The analogies I used and that @fokusnik used are entirely apt.

TheManimal

Which remains incorrect. This change removes all bonuses to stealth, which is directly counter to lore; and adds a detection bonus that is not contrary to lore, but not explicitly supported by it, either.

No matter how much you wave your hands, and accuse me of being insulting, or whatever else; the fact will remain: detection is not stealth. It will never be stealth. The analogies I used and that @fokusnik used are entirely apt.[/quote]

I never said sneak detection is sneak radius reduction. I fully understand the two mechanics and I still feel as though this passive fits fine as far as lore goes. You can make use of this passive (very little use) while stealth to avoid other people sneaking making it useful as a tool to stealth around remaining unseen. You’re just acting like a child at this point by insulting me because I don’t agree with you. Get over it I’m not going to agree with you. I fully oppose your opinion. You posted this because you felt it is not lore friendly but I’m providing reasonable evidence that it is and can be used to enhance your stealth in certain scenarios. So it’s not lore breaking by any means. But think what you will I don’t give a ***.

Cundu_Ertur

TheManimal wrote: »

I never said sneak detection is sneak radius reduction. I fully understand the two mechanics and I still feel as though this passive fits fine as far as lore goes. You can make use of this passive (very little use) while stealth to avoid other people sneaking making it useful as a tool to stealth around remaining unseen.

And how often, exactly, will that be outside of battlegrounds or Cyrodiil? How many guards are stealthed? How many pickpocket or assassination targets are stealthed?

TheManimal wrote: »

You’re just acting like a child at this point by insulting me because I don’t agree with you. Get over it I’m not going to agree with you. I fully oppose your opinion. You posted this because you felt it is not lore friendly but I’m providing reasonable evidence that it is and can be used to enhance your stealth in certain scenarios. So it’s not lore breaking by any means. But think what you will I don’t give a ***.

The only insults tossed around here are from you. Where did I (or anyone else for that matter) call you a moron, or an idiot, or a child? Quote it and bold it. I am not going to roll over and accept the validity of a position that is, in my opinion, entirely false and misleading simply because you falsely accuse me of insulting you in some way. It is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer that detection is detection and stealth is stealth. I mean, you may as well claim that a bigger stam pool or better stam regen would be stealth buffs. They kind of are, in about the same way detection is, but they are clearly separate things.

Sahidom

fokusnik wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I made a similar point in my lore review for the race changes.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454420/lore-review-for-race-changes

An excellent post by the way. I would encourage anyone interested in the lore aspect of the racial changes to check it out. I wish it had come up in search before I made my original post.

I would be agreeable about the Wood Elf retaining their stealth bonus; however, you achieve similar results when you can avoid other stealth characters via detecting them before you're noticed. While this "ambush" approach isn't the same as receiving the reduced detection radius from stealth, it does approach their "ambush" style differently.

I would like to see their passive detection radius increased to 5 meters than three. This could allow them to hunt the stealth with more intuitive control on who sees who first, a different sort of racial ambush style: being able to leverage an advantage before their attack.

Kesstryl

I don't PvP on my Bosmer, but I did enjoy stealth shooting at delve mobs and bosses, and other NPC hostiles for the damage bonus, and then seeing how fast I could take them down with my bow before they got to me. This was completely PvE. The changes destroyed the way I PvE my woodelf for a mechanic that is PvP. I am not a happy woodelf. When am I ever going to use this new passive in PvE? The roll dodge speed buff I already got from the bow passive, it was not really needed. If it stacks with the new Bosmer passive, which I'm sure is not intended, that would be OP in PvP anyway. While that might make dungeon running fun, I'd rather stick with my group in dungeons and use a horse to get around PvE. I want the old passive to remain as is.

IntelligentAmsomniac

I play wood elf both in PvE and PvP and the new racial bonus of stealth detection is highly situational and only applicaple in PvP, and even there it's not that useful nor wanted. Wood elves should have a a racial passive that's useful, unique and lore friendly. Stealth detection fails misrably at meeting those goals.

Bosmer are a stealthy race by nature, so I suggest giving them the ability to move at normal speed while sneaking, basically removing their need to be a vampire for that single passive if that's all they want from vampirism. Ignores the movement penalty of sneak is already implemented within the game, it's lore-friendly and most importantly, it can be useful for both PvP and PvE (think thieving for example).

It wouldn't be unique strictly speaking as there's a craftable set that gives the bonus, but at least it would be much more useful than stealth detection. And would free you to use some other 5-piece set.

TheManimal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

TheManimal wrote: »

I never said sneak detection is sneak radius reduction. I fully understand the two mechanics and I still feel as though this passive fits fine as far as lore goes. You can make use of this passive (very little use) while stealth to avoid other people sneaking making it useful as a tool to stealth around remaining unseen.

And how often, exactly, will that be outside of battlegrounds or Cyrodiil? How many guards are stealthed? How many pickpocket or assassination targets are stealthed?

TheManimal wrote: »

You’re just acting like a child at this point by insulting me because I don’t agree with you. Get over it I’m not going to agree with you. I fully oppose your opinion. You posted this because you felt it is not lore friendly but I’m providing reasonable evidence that it is and can be used to enhance your stealth in certain scenarios. So it’s not lore breaking by any means. But think what you will I don’t give a ***.

The only insults tossed around here are from you. Where did I (or anyone else for that matter) call you a moron, or an idiot, or a child? Quote it and bold it. I am not going to roll over and accept the validity of a position that is, in my opinion, entirely false and misleading simply because you falsely accuse me of insulting you in some way. It is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer that detection is detection and stealth is stealth. I mean, you may as well claim that a bigger stam pool or better stam regen would be stealth buffs. They kind of are, in about the same way detection is, but they are clearly separate things.

This isn’t about its usefulness it’s about how it fits with lore. They are hunters. Hunters hide or track until they detect a target. I said it before I’ll say it again I know the difference. I also know skills in conjunction with each other may benefit one another ie stealth and stealth detection. Why don’t you go ahead and drop it this is the stupidest thing to complain about and I don’t even think it’s valid. Is the whole unlore friendly thing an excuse so that you can attempt to revert these changes? Stop changing subject and focus on defending your point rather then assuming I don’t understand the fundamental differences between Stam Regen, max stam, stealth, detection, radars.... it’s not lore breaking that’s it. That’s all I came here to clairify.

Cundu_Ertur

TheManimal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

TheManimal wrote: »

I never said sneak detection is sneak radius reduction. I fully understand the two mechanics and I still feel as though this passive fits fine as far as lore goes. You can make use of this passive (very little use) while stealth to avoid other people sneaking making it useful as a tool to stealth around remaining unseen.

And how often, exactly, will that be outside of battlegrounds or Cyrodiil? How many guards are stealthed? How many pickpocket or assassination targets are stealthed?

TheManimal wrote: »

You’re just acting like a child at this point by insulting me because I don’t agree with you. Get over it I’m not going to agree with you. I fully oppose your opinion. You posted this because you felt it is not lore friendly but I’m providing reasonable evidence that it is and can be used to enhance your stealth in certain scenarios. So it’s not lore breaking by any means. But think what you will I don’t give a ***.

The only insults tossed around here are from you. Where did I (or anyone else for that matter) call you a moron, or an idiot, or a child? Quote it and bold it. I am not going to roll over and accept the validity of a position that is, in my opinion, entirely false and misleading simply because you falsely accuse me of insulting you in some way. It is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer that detection is detection and stealth is stealth. I mean, you may as well claim that a bigger stam pool or better stam regen would be stealth buffs. They kind of are, in about the same way detection is, but they are clearly separate things.

This isn’t about its usefulness it’s about how it fits with lore. They are hunters. Hunters hide or track until they detect a target. I said it before I’ll say it again I know the difference. I also know skills in conjunction with each other may benefit one another ie stealth and stealth detection. Why don’t you go ahead and drop it this is the stupidest thing to complain about and I don’t even think it’s valid. Is the whole unlore friendly thing an excuse so that you can attempt to revert these changes? Stop changing subject and focus on defending your point rather then assuming I don’t understand the fundamental differences between Stam Regen, max stam, stealth, detection, radars.... it’s not lore breaking that’s it. That’s all I came here to clairify.

From the War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer: It is considered the acme of skill to slip into another tribe’s village and steal an item for ransom without being noticed. The larger the item, the greater the prestige. Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."

The Meh Ayleidion is also mentioned in A Pocket Guide to the Empire (1st edition): Aldmeri Dominion, and in passing in A Dance in Fire.

From Valenwood: A Study: "Over time and through generations, these early settlers adapted to the woods. They learned stealth and cunning by studying their new prey. Eventually, they became Wood Elves, or Bosmer. Slighter than the Altmer, intense and agile, the Bosmer are renowned archers and scouts." They did not learn detecting, they learned stealth.

This was what a few minutes got me for only the lore out of ESO. From previous iterations of Tamriel, from Morrowind until this latest change in ESO, Bosmer have had a racial advantage in stealth. Not detecting, in stealth.

You know what isn't explicitly mentioned in lore about Bosmer, ever? That they are particularly good at spotting hidden things.

You keep claiming to understand the difference between detecting and stealth, and yet you still insist that listening to a song makes someone a musician. A hunter who is seen by his prey goes hungry. Ohhhh, but wait, I forgot, you moved those goalposts, since you've come to realize "This isn’t about its usefulness..."; I guess you tried to find one situation where this new garbage passive would be useful in PVE and then found that there isn't even one. They may as well give Bosmer a bonus to coding in Perl. Perl is LIKE stealth, I suppose, since no-one sees coders for weeks until they suddenly re-appear smelling like coffee and stale pizza.

And, OF COURSE I want to revert these moronic changes. The FACT that it is contrary to the established lore is part of it, yes. But more, it is a matter that this change creates a racial passive, THE ONLY racial passive by the way, that is only of value in PVP. It has not the slightest benefit for PVE. None. There are exactly 0 situations that I am aware of where my hiding will be in any way enhanced by being able to see other hidden things first outside of Cyrodiil or a battleground. 0 <== that's a zero. And the fact that the detection passive doesn't only get activated by being hidden just serves to reinforce the undeniable fact that it really isn't a stealth passive in any way. It is anti-stealth. Instead of boosting my stealth it nerfs someone else's.

I played a Bosmer in Morrowind to be a stealthy archer. I played a Bosmer in Oblivion to be a stealthy archer. I played a Bosmer in Skyrim to be a stealthy archer. I play a Bosmer (three actually) in ESO to be a stealthy archer -- only now I'm being told that no, stealth was never part of what makes a Bosmer a Bosmer and instead it's this detection passive that, so sorry, will only work in PVP.

Cundu_Ertur

IntelligentAmsomniac wrote: »

I play wood elf both in PvE and PvP and the new racial bonus of stealth detection is highly situational and only applicaple in PvP, and even there it's not that useful nor wanted. Wood elves should have a a racial passive that's useful, unique and lore friendly. Stealth detection fails misrably at meeting those goals.

Bosmer are a stealthy race by nature, so I suggest giving them the ability to move at normal speed while sneaking, basically removing their need to be a vampire for that single passive if that's all they want from vampirism. Ignores the movement penalty of sneak is already implemented within the game, it's lore-friendly and most importantly, it can be useful for both PvP and PvE (think thieving for example).

It wouldn't be unique strictly speaking as there's a craftable set that gives the bonus, but at least it would be much more useful than stealth detection. And would free you to use some other 5-piece set.

While I agree 100% with your evaluation of the problem, I do not agree with the solution. There are three possible solutions for the issue that I see: 1. Match the Khajiit stealth bonus and ditch the detection bonus; 2. Add the original 3m stealth bonus to the new detection bonus; 3. Add the 3m stealth bonus to the detection bonus, then swap that part of the passive with the Khajiit so they have the detection + stealth, while Bosmer have the better stealth. The last option is a nod to the fact that Khajiit in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim had both a bonus to the hiding skill and also had a racial ability called night eye. Honestly, though, much as I prefer the last option I think it is not likely. I think we will end up with option 2. Mostly because as it stands now, we have part of a passive that is only of any value in PVP -- and of very little value even there. We are the only race crippled in that way. I don't think option 1 will happen, because the devs have stated that they want the racials to be different between the races, so I don't think we'd have both Khajiit and Bosmer with the 5m bonus to being hidden.

However, the night silence (or stage 4 vampire) bonus is too much, I think. I'd much rather just have the original stealth bonus.

Thannazzar

Lore meh. But I agree with the OP that a detection buff is pointless outside PVP. Bosmer should have a relevant power for PVE also. Personally I'd say the passive should be augmented with a hunting based non combat pve buff such as increased crafting materials yield from slain creatures.

IntelligentAmsomniac

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

While I agree 100% with your evaluation of the problem, I do not agree with the solution. There are three possible solutions for the issue that I see: 1. Match the Khajiit stealth bonus and ditch the detection bonus; 2. Add the original 3m stealth bonus to the new detection bonus; 3. Add the 3m stealth bonus to the detection bonus, then swap that part of the passive with the Khajiit so they have the detection + stealth, while Bosmer have the better stealth. The last option is a nod to the fact that Khajiit in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim had both a bonus to the hiding skill and also had a racial ability called night eye. Honestly, though, much as I prefer the last option I think it is not likely. I think we will end up with option 2. Mostly because as it stands now, we have part of a passive that is only of any value in PVP -- and of very little value even there. We are the only race crippled in that way. I don't think option 1 will happen, because the devs have stated that they want the racials to be different between the races, so I don't think we'd have both Khajiit and Bosmer with the 5m bonus to being hidden.

However, the night silence (or stage 4 vampire) bonus is too much, I think. I'd much rather just have the original stealth bonus.

I would prefer the original bonus too, but since I don't see that happening, nor is Zenimax likely to be willing to share any bonuses between races, I tried to find something that would fit to the lore and be useful in both environments (PvP and PvE). Basically, increasing sneak's movement speed was the best I could come up with given the constraints. Yes, it's strong, but so are some of the other bonuses given to races.

However, "ignores the movement speed penalty of sneak" could easily be tuned to the desired level through procentual progression through ranks. One example would be rank 1 granting 20% reduction in sneak movement speed penalty, rank 2 40% and rank 3 65%. I used the "Ignores the movement speed penalty of sneak", because it doesn't increase your damage or survivability directly, it's more of an utility/playstyle passive.

ChefZero

No matter in which case stealth/detect passives are only niche passives like elemantel damage cause it will effect to less competitive build's in PvE and PvE. You can't compare the passives in a single and multiplayer game in diversity and impact.

So they should remove them to the global passives.

Another guy in this forum suggested to switch damage to penetration passives for dunmer to highlight the aggressive nature and the weakness in defense. Giving penetration to bosmer and khajit would support a dealdy acting, too.

Cundu_Ertur

IntelligentAmsomniac wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

While I agree 100% with your evaluation of the problem, I do not agree with the solution. There are three possible solutions for the issue that I see: 1. Match the Khajiit stealth bonus and ditch the detection bonus; 2. Add the original 3m stealth bonus to the new detection bonus; 3. Add the 3m stealth bonus to the detection bonus, then swap that part of the passive with the Khajiit so they have the detection + stealth, while Bosmer have the better stealth. The last option is a nod to the fact that Khajiit in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim had both a bonus to the hiding skill and also had a racial ability called night eye. Honestly, though, much as I prefer the last option I think it is not likely. I think we will end up with option 2. Mostly because as it stands now, we have part of a passive that is only of any value in PVP -- and of very little value even there. We are the only race crippled in that way. I don't think option 1 will happen, because the devs have stated that they want the racials to be different between the races, so I don't think we'd have both Khajiit and Bosmer with the 5m bonus to being hidden.

However, the night silence (or stage 4 vampire) bonus is too much, I think. I'd much rather just have the original stealth bonus.

I would prefer the original bonus too, but since I don't see that happening, nor is Zenimax likely to be willing to share any bonuses between races, …..

How many races share bonuses to stamina, majicka, health, and/or regen to those stats? There's tons of shared things, the differences are in the details. Redguards and Bosmer both have stamina and regen buffs, but differences within those similarities. Some races get big buffs to stamina, like the Bosmer, others get less of a buff like the Orcs (who get too little, but I'll let them argue their own issues). There's no issue with something being shared, per se, so long as it is appropriate and somewhat distinct. Having a purely stealth partial passive and a mixed stealth/detection partial passive is distinct enough to be a valid option, I think.