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Stealth, Wood Elves and the Breaking of Lore
fokusnik
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There are a few areas of the proposed racial passive changes that cause me some concern, but most of those can be addressed with the adjustment of numbers. The change to the Wood Elves (Bosmer) on the other hand is lore breaking in regards to stealth. I would argue that the only change that you could have made that would be more lore breaking than removing their natural affinity to stealth would be removing their affinity to archery.
The lore of the Elder Scrolls series (including ESO) has the Bosmer being one of the stealthier races in Tamriel and this has consistently been reflected in the racial bonuses. In Skyrim the only races to have a stealth bonus were the Bosmer, Dunmer, Argonian and Khajiit. It is true that in Skyrim the Khajiit's stealth bonus was double that of the Bosmer and it is fully acceptable to have discussion about which race is the stealthiest. It is also worth mentioning that that is both Morrowind and Oblivion that the only races with stealth bonuses were the Bosmer and Khajiit and the Bosmer's stealth bonus was double that of the Khajiit. So a good case could be made for both races.
I understand that before these two races shared the exact same passive and that you wanted to make them more unique. This is a good objective. When I first read through the changes I though it was the difference of the Khajiit going from 3 to 5 meters and the Bosmer remaining at 3 meters and I didn't think much of it, but then on closer inspection I realized it was the difference of 5 meters and 0 meters and that got me looking for my forum login details.
I like the addition of the speed bonus from roll dodge as in the lore the Bosmer have always been very fast as well as agile and acrobatic. Some might object to the 20%, but that is a number argument and I want to look mostly at the lore side of the discussion. The idea of having the Bosmer being accomplished hunters and therefore being able to detect stealthy creatures is a good one. After all the Bosmer don't eat plants so if they were not able to hunt animals they would starve. ESO also has some wonderful quests in Grahtwood regarding the Bosmer and their hunting ability and a special buff when in that zone, so the thought process was a sound one. However, a hunter who cannot mask his presence from his prey is not an expert hunter.
Replacing stealthiness with stealth detection is not a suitable trade given the lore. However it is worse given game play. Stealth is a play style, a viable play style for both PvE and PvP. Stealth detection on the other hand is not, as it has (almost) no practical purpose in PvE. A case can be argued for PvP as there is a need to detect stealthy players. The Bosmer could now be masters at hunting those sneaky Khajiit ready to pounce from the shadows to wreck their entire group. This could be a valid argument if it were not for the lore created for ESO, but the fact that the Bosmer and Khajiit are in the SAME FACTION renders this new ability quite worthless unless the ability to more easily see your own teammates has a much bigger practical purpose than I am imagining. Yes, with the any race any faction option, individual Bosmer and Khajiit could be in opposing factions, but they would most likely be few and unless these characters have compelling backstories as to why they would be fighting in a different faction, they can hardly been seen as cannon. Definitely not worth designing an entire passive around. Yes, other races can still be sneaky and therefore detected in PvP, but once again, given the lore and game play, trading away stealthiness for stealth detection is by far not a fair trade.
The Khajiit's stealth passive was both increased and moved to another passive, freeing up space for a completely new passive. Would it be wrong to suggest that the Bosmer could have stealthiness, stealth detection and the speed boost from dodge roll? I have a feeling that people are going to insist that 20% is too high and if that is lowered then I believe there is even more of a case to have all three be a part of this passive. I would suggest something like: 3 meter reduction to stealth radius, 2 meter stealth detection and the speed boost (even if it was a bit lower - 15%).
Hopefully this feedback is useful and that you will consider my lore-based arguments. Thank you for your time and consideration.
The lore of the Elder Scrolls series (including ESO) has the Bosmer being one of the stealthier races in Tamriel and this has consistently been reflected in the racial bonuses. In Skyrim the only races to have a stealth bonus were the Bosmer, Dunmer, Argonian and Khajiit. It is true that in Skyrim the Khajiit's stealth bonus was double that of the Bosmer and it is fully acceptable to have discussion about which race is the stealthiest. It is also worth mentioning that that is both Morrowind and Oblivion that the only races with stealth bonuses were the Bosmer and Khajiit and the Bosmer's stealth bonus was double that of the Khajiit. So a good case could be made for both races.
I understand that before these two races shared the exact same passive and that you wanted to make them more unique. This is a good objective. When I first read through the changes I though it was the difference of the Khajiit going from 3 to 5 meters and the Bosmer remaining at 3 meters and I didn't think much of it, but then on closer inspection I realized it was the difference of 5 meters and 0 meters and that got me looking for my forum login details.
I like the addition of the speed bonus from roll dodge as in the lore the Bosmer have always been very fast as well as agile and acrobatic. Some might object to the 20%, but that is a number argument and I want to look mostly at the lore side of the discussion. The idea of having the Bosmer being accomplished hunters and therefore being able to detect stealthy creatures is a good one. After all the Bosmer don't eat plants so if they were not able to hunt animals they would starve. ESO also has some wonderful quests in Grahtwood regarding the Bosmer and their hunting ability and a special buff when in that zone, so the thought process was a sound one. However, a hunter who cannot mask his presence from his prey is not an expert hunter.
Replacing stealthiness with stealth detection is not a suitable trade given the lore. However it is worse given game play. Stealth is a play style, a viable play style for both PvE and PvP. Stealth detection on the other hand is not, as it has (almost) no practical purpose in PvE. A case can be argued for PvP as there is a need to detect stealthy players. The Bosmer could now be masters at hunting those sneaky Khajiit ready to pounce from the shadows to wreck their entire group. This could be a valid argument if it were not for the lore created for ESO, but the fact that the Bosmer and Khajiit are in the SAME FACTION renders this new ability quite worthless unless the ability to more easily see your own teammates has a much bigger practical purpose than I am imagining. Yes, with the any race any faction option, individual Bosmer and Khajiit could be in opposing factions, but they would most likely be few and unless these characters have compelling backstories as to why they would be fighting in a different faction, they can hardly been seen as cannon. Definitely not worth designing an entire passive around. Yes, other races can still be sneaky and therefore detected in PvP, but once again, given the lore and game play, trading away stealthiness for stealth detection is by far not a fair trade.
The Khajiit's stealth passive was both increased and moved to another passive, freeing up space for a completely new passive. Would it be wrong to suggest that the Bosmer could have stealthiness, stealth detection and the speed boost from dodge roll? I have a feeling that people are going to insist that 20% is too high and if that is lowered then I believe there is even more of a case to have all three be a part of this passive. I would suggest something like: 3 meter reduction to stealth radius, 2 meter stealth detection and the speed boost (even if it was a bit lower - 15%).
Hopefully this feedback is useful and that you will consider my lore-based arguments. Thank you for your time and consideration.
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Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭a stealth archer wants to get away fast if they fail to kill their target, its a great passive2 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭khajiit are thieves who sneak close to people, bosmer are hunters who sneak further away then shoot them with arrows, don't see how that change isn't lore friendly0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭khajiit are thieves who sneak close to people, bosmer are hunters who sneak further away then shoot them with arrows, don't see how that change isn't lore friendly
@CP5
Bosmer are also thieves.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer#The_Rite_of_Theft4 -
fokusnik✭✭✭khajiit are thieves who sneak close to people, bosmer are hunters who sneak further away then shoot them with arrows, don't see how that change isn't lore friendly
It is not consistent with lore because the new racial passives for Bosmer have NO stealth, only stealth detection. Being able to detect stealth and being stealthy are vastly different things.6 -
JAwtunes✭✭✭✭Interesting post OP. TBH I am more interested in the speed buff passive. I think my Bosmer will be more lore friendly in future as he will be rolling more to make use of the speed buff passive, which will synergize nicely with bow (I wouldn't be surprised it that was the intention with the passive). 20% seems too high, but I guess its only 3s. I have seen suggestions to switch to the Bosmer buff to Major Expedition, this would be terrible as it would then not work with bow.0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I made a similar point in my lore review for the race changes.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454420/lore-review-for-race-changes
If any race should have a bonus to stealth detection, it is Khajiit, because of their superior vision (see Night Eye power). I'd suggest to give Bosmer the better detection radius reduction of 5m, and Khajiit a combination of increased stealth detection and reduced detection radius, both 3m.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.4 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Imagine you're a role player typing a wall of text but Noone caresEdited by Qbiken on January 22, 2019 8:53AM3 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭How about Wood Elves animal companion passive? sth that benefits having pets or animal abilities?4 -
IwakuraLain42✭✭✭✭✭A good writeup of the problems with the changes. Let add that I think that changing a major defining aspect of a Race 4 years after the launch is a really bad idea. This really invalidates a large aspect of the characters.7 -
albesca✭✭✭✭✭Replacing stealthiness with stealth detection is not a suitable trade given the lore. However it is worse given game play. Stealth is a play style, a viable play style for both PvE and PvP. Stealth detection on the other hand is not, as it has (almost) no practical purpose in PvE. A case can be argued for PvP as there is a need to detect stealthy players.
This is a perfectly valid argument, and I agree with the general idea, but I honestly can't see how the change breaks the lore: it just highlights another aspect of the bosmer established naturePC EU
Khajiit has no time for you0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Having combat relevant passives (like the speed buff) is far more important than reduced stealth detection. If you are worried about PvE roleplay you can also just slot Night Mother's Embrace set and almost nothing will change.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.3 -
Torbschka✭✭✭✭most stupid phrase ESO-Forums 2019
"breaking the lore"...
cant read that *** anymore2 -
Everstorm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Having combat relevant passives (like the speed buff) is far more important than reduced stealth detection. If you are worried about PvE roleplay you can also just slot Night Mother's Embrace set and almost nothing will change.
Everyone that likes playing thief characters use night mother's embrace and night terror already. It's like telling someone to just wear Relequen when their stamdps gets a dps nerf.2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭a stealth archer wants to get away fast if they fail to kill their target, its a great passive
If you're an archer, you already have a superior speed boost passive, after dodge rolling (provided by the bow skill line).
So, unless you are using something other than a bow (meaning you're not really an archer), this adds nothing.
Not that I'm not happy about having it; but, it will only add something while I'm dual wielding.
Not while I have bow equipped.Edited by Tigerseye on January 22, 2019 1:00PM0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭a stealth archer wants to get away fast if they fail to kill their target, its a great passive
If you're an archer, you already have a superior speed boost passive, after dodge rolling (provided by the bow skill line).
So, unless you are using something other than a bow (meaning you're not really an archer), this adds nothing.
Not that I'm not happy about having it; but, it will only add something while I'm dual wielding.
Not while I have bow equipped.
It makes you super fast.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
fokusnik✭✭✭most stupid phrase ESO-Forums 2019
"breaking the lore"...
cant read that *** anymore
Then don't don't read it. If you don't care about the world and races of the established games series that you are playing in then perhaps you are more suited to Fortnite or another disposable game world, but it is rather asinine to not expect that in an established RPG lore-rich world to find people who do care about said lore and its continuity.Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Having combat relevant passives (like the speed buff) is far more important than reduced stealth detection.
Stealthiness is more of a combat relevant passive than stealth detection. I don't see why it would be a choice between the speed buff and stealth when the stealth detection could be changed back to a stealth ability and it would be more inline with the lore of the race.
As I said in my original post I can understand the thought process that went into these passives. The desire to have unique passives is a good one. I just think that in this situation it did not hit the mark. Before, the Khajiit and Bosmer had the exact same passive because it is a trait they both share. However the Altmer and Breton both share an affinity to magicka and they both have passives that reflex that without them being the same. This feels a bit like deciding that Bretons can't have a magicka passive because it was already used when they designed the Altmer. I'm all for giving the Wood Elves a stealth passive that is different from the Khajiit, but taking away a key aspect of the race's lore-established nature is not the way to do it.If any race should have a bonus to stealth detection, it is Khajiit, because of their superior vision (see Night Eye power). I'd suggest to give Bosmer the better detection radius reduction of 5m, and Khajiit a combination of increased stealth detection and reduced detection radius, both 3m.
I had the same thought when I was making my original post.3 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭i think the sentry passive is kinda lame, id prefer the decreased for detect radius. but honestly im coming from the opinion of a thief/ farmer so my opinion is a little invalid lol0 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?
Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
I don’t really care about the stealth change for these races but for the sake of argument stealth detection gives bosmer the ability to out stealth other races. If you can see someone in stealth before they see you then you just out stealthed them. This means you can remain in stealth while the other party wonderers what pulled them out giving you the edge on stealth. So in a way this for sure makes you more stealthy as it gives you a better idea of your surroundings and allows you to get the drop on others trying to do the same thing.0
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fokusnik✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?
Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?
I have characters of all races, so I am invested in the lore for all of them. As for BGs I've only participated enough to unlock a Midyear Mayhem achievement. I really don't care about PvP at all and would probably ignore if it were not for skill points, skill lines, skyshards, fishing, lorebooks, etc. You make some very strong assumptions in your post with there being no real evidence to support them. It makes me think you haven't actually read my post or the thread.3 -
fokusnik✭✭✭I made a similar point in my lore review for the race changes.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454420/lore-review-for-race-changes
An excellent post by the way. I would encourage anyone interested in the lore aspect of the racial changes to check it out. I wish it had come up in search before I made my original post.1 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?
Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?
I have characters of all races, so I am invested in the lore for all of them. As for BGs I've only participated enough to unlock a Midyear Mayhem achievement. I really don't care about PvP at all and would probably ignore if it were not for skill points, skill lines, skyshards, fishing, lorebooks, etc. You make some very strong assumptions in your post with there being no real evidence to support them. It makes me think you haven't actually read my post or the thread.
Ok, I apologise. But I still say that ZOS probably made this move to balance this BG nonsense as well as (as they noted) making a nicer passive for WoodElves who dont need huge stealth benefits.
It would be good if say, they got a small movement speed increase while in stealth, the rolling bit makes less sense. But I totally understand and support the removal of the stealth damage bonus and somewhat support the reduction in favor of detection focus. Stealth has long been overpowered in PVP and long been unused in PVE.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
fokusnik✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Ok, I apologise.
No worries. But I am curious as to what kind of salty PvPers, mad about a change in stealth, would sit down and write a massive post about lore.
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killmove✭✭✭Woodelf should get the speed passive from level 4 vampire while sneaking as a race passive1
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Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How about Wood Elves animal companion passive? sth that benefits having pets or animal abilities?
My great eso dream!
Yeah while not personally a sneaky wood elf I understand the feelings here. Maybe they could add on section passive with some that addes to shealth? Maybe 10% movement speed in shealth?0 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »So basically you're sad because ZOS are slowly trying to remove your ability to 1shot + stun, follow up and then instant restealth in BGs?
Do you really care about the lore that much? Or do you just want to keep your OP playstyle free from nerfs?
Since cloak isn't affected in the slightest way, this is not affected either. At all.TheManimal wrote: »I don’t really care about the stealth change for these races but for the sake of argument stealth detection gives bosmer the ability to out stealth other races. If you can see someone in stealth before they see you then you just out stealthed them. This means you can remain in stealth while the other party wonderers what pulled them out giving you the edge on stealth. So in a way this for sure makes you more stealthy as it gives you a better idea of your surroundings and allows you to get the drop on others trying to do the same thing.
The Khajiit hiding bonus is 5 now, and a sneaking khajiit will see a sneaking bosmer before the bosmer sees the khajiit. So, no, Bosmer don't outstealth everyone and this fails even if it is meant as a counter to the Khajiit's ability to hide.
Also, what other race has even part of a passive that is only useful in PVP?Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.3
