Stage 4 Vampires and transformed Werewolves should be attacked by guards, like Necromancy.

Thevampirenight

O_LYKOS wrote: »

lol. No.

“Using necromancy” is different to simply walking around at stage 4 vampire. Maybe doing vampire things, then sure.

Well many people mistake necromancy and vampirism as being the same thing. Most see vampires as reanimated corpses which most would be very ignorant about.
Here is the lore on it
Necromancy, also called the Necromantic Arts, Dark Arts, or Dark Practice, is the manipulation of the souls or corpses of the dead.[1][2] Dragons know it as alok-dilon.[3] Different groups and cultures have varying positions on what exactly constitutes necromancy. In its broadest sense, necromancy can be understood as any form of soul manipulation.[4] Some might consider it a subset of the conjuration school of magic, as both involve the summoning of spirits and utilizing the powers of Oblivion.[5] However, necromancy is more generally understood to connote the manipulation of the souls of mortals and the reanimation of their corpses.[2] Typically, this soul manipulation is accomplished by binding a soul to a physical form which has been prepared by the necromancer.[6]

Necromancy has generally been considered immoral and illegal in most cultures, as it is believed to contravene the natural process of life and death and violate the sanctity of spirits. However, there have been significant exceptions, and various disreputable groups have employed necromancy as a tool of war throughout history. Much of the knowledge of it is often attributed to Daedric influences, specifically Molag Bal.[2] Molag Bal is also the father of vampires, undead creatures who often practice and have a heightened affinity for necromancy, or work alongside necromancers.[7][8] Vampirism is often understood to be a form of necromancy
But given what we know about them I would call it misunderstood. As Vampirism is not necromancy. But in many peoples minds they are one and the same. They would know about the blood drinking but most might be scared and poop themselves if they had to face a vampire or necromancer.

Of course they would shun them but not everyone would attack them outright so more or less how it is in morrowind then it was in vanilla skyrim. However if the Morrowind temple Ordinators got word I'm sure they would send a team to deal with it. But back then they couldn't code such complex npc actions. As they could in the later elder scrolls games. Also not every person is ignorant and knows vampires and necromancers are not the same thing as well. I'm sure they would consider a vampire a lesser evil not as evil as a necromancer depending on if they enslave or enthrall others or not. This is the position of the Mages guild from what we seen in oblivion heck they were the one of the two factions to allow you to join them if you were a vampire in Morrowind telvanni was another which is also basically a counterpart to the mages guild itself but more about achieving power for themselves experimenting sometimes on people and slaves among other things.

So I think even the most hated of creatures would be more welcome in a city and especially the mages guild then a necromancer that tells you quite a lot about how the mages guild feels about necromancy.

Leocaran

SiAScORCH wrote: »

The justice system for necromancer ONLY and I mean ONLY happens when you use skills in front of NPC's. It's considered dark magic.

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

When a vampire or werewolf uses an active skill in front of the guards, they get attacked for it. Hmmm sounds good to me. That would be fair to equal the necromancer, but a vampire just being in stage 4 isn't the same.

Minyassa wrote: »

There's too much appearance tomfoolery going around to have them react to visual cues. I would agree only with having guards react to use of werewolf or vampire *skills*. That I'm all for.

There's a problem I have with this from the lore point of view. How guards and anyone else should distinguish vampiric, necromantic and all other sorts of magic (including sorcerer's and nightblade's)? Nightblade skills look terribly vampiric and obviously are dark magic, sorcerer's too in some cases. How should they know this this soul stealing is just normal dark magic but that one is a vampiric drain? This mist cloud is a scary vampire's transformation, but that one is just warden's elemental magic? This green magic missile is a good harmless magic, but that one is a terrible necromancy? Should all Tamriel's inhabitants become experts in all sorts of magic (including simple town guards)?

starkerealm

Claudman wrote: »

I can see transformed werewolves, but I don't know about vampires as you can hide your vampiric appearance with a disguise or a skin, so that would call for more scripting most likely.

I can get behind this. A new Vampire skill that conceals your vampirism, and prevents guard aggro while active? If it's a toggle, that could be neat.

Rex-Umbra

Doing a vampire ability perhaps not just being one

Morgul667

Provide a hide vampirism skin and im all in

Shardaxx

I seen weird cat and lizard people walking around too, that ain't right.

coop500

Ehh some of us like to stay at stage 4 because we're RPing a nice vampire that doesn't suck blood... It would be hella annoying to not even be able to do basic town stuff just because I'm a vampire stage 4.

Now transformed werewolf and using vampire skills? I agree to that

Arrodisia

Leocaran wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

The justice system for necromancer ONLY and I mean ONLY happens when you use skills in front of NPC's. It's considered dark magic.

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

When a vampire or werewolf uses an active skill in front of the guards, they get attacked for it. Hmmm sounds good to me. That would be fair to equal the necromancer, but a vampire just being in stage 4 isn't the same.

Minyassa wrote: »

There's too much appearance tomfoolery going around to have them react to visual cues. I would agree only with having guards react to use of werewolf or vampire *skills*. That I'm all for.

There's a problem I have with this from the lore point of view. How guards and anyone else should distinguish vampiric, necromantic and all other sorts of magic (including sorcerer's and nightblade's)? Nightblade skills look terribly vampiric and obviously are dark magic, sorcerer's too in some cases. How should they know this this soul stealing is just normal dark magic but that one is a vampiric drain? This mist cloud is a scary vampire's transformation, but that one is just warden's elemental magic? This green magic missile is a good harmless magic, but that one is a terrible necromancy? Should all Tamriel's inhabitants become experts in all sorts of magic (including simple town guards)?

Sadly, this mmo and lore don't always go hand in hand. There is a bit of inconsistancy, as with most other mmo's, and it's a whole other issue. They do want to incorporate some lore, but they also have other concerns which they justify not sticking to it completely at some point. I'm not saying they are right or wrong here. I'm just stating what they do. The thing is, this is one of those sunjects where a lot of people want different things to happen here. Luckily, this change whether it happens or not won't unfairly cost the players crowns like some others.....

I can see your point though, but ZOS decides whats lore breaking and not and what's immersive or not. We give our opinions, but they decide the final product. It's their game, which is why I was specifically ignoring mentioning lore because that is something ZOS handles, and they haven't been completely clear on all criteria they use to decide when lore breaks game mechanics, immersion, ............. they seemingly use as factors. I was speaking more from the abilities standpoint. I, merely, pointed out why the suggestion didn't make complete sense because stage 4 is not an active ability and therefore shouldn't count. It's mixing apples and oranges. Now mist form and all other abilities should've been in that person's scenario not passives.

Regardless, I do also see the flip side of how this "might" be too much of a nuiscance for people who might be vampires to port out of a raid into a city, and suddenly need to worry about guards and town's people, over a passive which the guards and town's people never cared about before. I only gave this one example to stop this from dragging on. Anyway, If we do factor in lore, we do see some inconsistancies. Then not all of it makes sense anymore, but again it isn't our decision.

Many people, including myself, made this same lore argument way back on multiple topics. We lost some skills, passives, and such, partially and entirely that make little sense because they actually did fit the lore, as well as some that didn't. So It's a mixed bag. I stopped commenting on that aspect for now. Maybe I'll revisit those topics again if I ever feel ZOS is more inclined to follow lore a bit closer. Who knows what the future holds?

heaven13

RogueShark wrote: »

I don't like the idea of the justice system affecting class skills or abilities tbh.
I mean if you make werewolves attackable, then it's going to suck for everyone who's running around and questing as WW. You already lose transformation enough when going into new zones or running from one objective to the next.
Vampires... why? How will they automatically know you're a vampire if you're covered head to toe? Would you expect someone to code that nightmare?
Why are necromancers suddenly being slapped with this justice system when for YEARS we have had sorcs strolling around nonchalantly with DAEDRA following them as DAEDRA attacked and killed people throughout Tamriel? Should that change? Hey have fun as a sorc being ported out of your dungeon with your pets and back into town and immediately being KOS by the guards.

It's inconsistent, it pointlessly affects gameplay, and there's no way to cover every contingency for everything that should be 'illegal'.

Oooh, you just further convinced me this is a good idea. Maybe people will start putting their flappy twilights away in town!

DirkRavenclaw

Ok, but then, every Sorc who has his pet out, a form of Necromancy, as well

Casdha

Left4Daud wrote: »

It is a good idea but It’s too late. Vamps and WW have been running around towns for years now and the guards didn’t care, why would they now?

You also use to be able to grab everything in sight without it being considered stealing, systems can change.

Ackwalan

Let's see how it works with necros. It is easier to add "outlawed" behavior then to take it away. if this works out well, ZOS can always expand on it.

StarOfElyon

O_LYKOS wrote: »

lol. No.

“Using necromancy” is different to simply walking around at stage 4 vampire. Maybe doing vampire things, then sure.

Do you need see a vampire feed to believe they've done it before? Do you think rational people will see a vampire and think, "Well, he's clearly not a threat to anyone"?

Vampires are not your friend. Neither are werewolves. They're monsters. People should be afraid of them. This is an RPG after all.

StarOfElyon

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Xarico wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Terrible idea. Being a vampire or werewolf doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.

The justice system for necromancer ONLY and I mean ONLY happens when you use skills in front of NPC's. It's considered dark magic. Just because you're a vampire or werewolf doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.

Sure, you're just regularly killing people either to sustain yourself or because you couldn't control your rage. If you're a vampire then, at best, you may have an agreement with several people who regularly donate you their blood so that you aren't forced to bleed anyone else, basically making the entire deal a hostage situation. A werewolf has the option of isolating themselves from the society and living out the remainder of their days in the wilderness, but that wouldn't be playable.

"I was afraid to hunt, so I was always hungry, and the hunger turned me feral. It was in this state that I came across them. A family of innocent farmers, just like the innocent farmers that had hounded me from village after village. My vision turned red and I flew into a fury" - a werewolf who tried to be nice and avoid doing anything wrong.

Of course, that's what the NPCs are dealing with. The PC can completely ignore their thirst/bloodlust and subsist on carrots and sunlight without ever losing temper; apparently, many players enjoy this fact, which raises the obvious question of why would they want to play a werewolf/vampire in the first place. It's entirely possible, I suppose, that many of them aren't even aware of the facts outlined above, as you weren't.

Every single person in the game regularly kills people. Hundreds of thousands of people.

Technically speaking, we should all be arrested on site.

All of these justice system requests are just needlessly tedious, irritating mechanics that will get old within the first few weeks.

Your character doesn't have to murder or harm innocent people.

Leocaran

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

I can see your point though, but ZOS decides whats lore breaking and not and what's immersive or not. We give our opinions, but they decide the final product.

Well, not exactly true. They can make lore, but immersion is completely on our side. But there's no immersion in the game now, so that doesn't matter anymore. Crazy mounts, skins, pets killed it already so we can relax.
But inconsistent game mechanics still matters. And I see about 3 more or less consistent ways: outlaw nothing, outlaw all spellcasting in towns and outlaw all 'suspicious' skills (so including sorcs', undaunted blood altars and so on). The latter way is ambiguous and would be a mess as a result...

Ajaxandriel

Garethjolnir wrote: »

As per the title. The feature that they are bringing with the upcoming patch, that guards attack you when using necromancy in town, should also apply to stage 4 vampirism and transformed werewolves.

Agree.

Vampires are dangerous for the civilians and other innocent NPCs.

Moreover they are ugly, and uglyness should be treated as a crime - at least in Summerset

StarOfElyon

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Garethjolnir wrote: »

As per the title. The feature that they are bringing with the upcoming patch, that guards attack you when using necromancy in town, should also apply to stage 4 vampirism and transformed werewolves.

Agree.

Vampires are dangerous for the civilians and other innocent NPCs.

Moreover they are ugly, and uglyness should be treated as a crime - at least in Summerset

Right. To the outlaw's refuge with the lot of them.

Xarico

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Every single person in the game regularly kills people. Hundreds of thousands of people.

Technically speaking, we should all be arrested on site.

All of these justice system requests are just needlessly tedious, irritating mechanics that will get old within the first few weeks.

This is irrelevant when answering the question of "why being a vampire/a werewolf is not and should not be okay in the eyes of Tamriel's citizens, even if the vampire/werewolf does nothing wrong (so far)." Whether or not their logical reaction is implemented as an actual mechanic is a different issue, as the person I was replying to believed that it wouldn't be logical in-universe in the first place.

And no, technically speaking, an average lawful good PC shouldn't be arrested on site. The populace is established to have zero ethical or legal problems with extrajudicial executions of daedra worshippers/bandits/necromancers/etc.

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Your logic doesn't make sense. You can kill mobs to sustain WW, it doesn't have to be NPC. If you're stage 4 vampire, then obviously you're not sustaining it, so again irrelevant. Regardless when you're witnessed doing things you have a bounty, and it cools down, so even if you gained a bounty when killing NPC which you do unless you do it from stealth with blade of woe. So the whole point is again irrelevant because you're not doing anything wrong and if you had been caught then you would have a bounty.

So you're talking purely about the gameplay level with all of its abstractions that make zero sense when it comes to lore and continuity. I see. Well, the gameplay level is malleable enough for there to exist no meaningful definition of "doing something wrong."

coop500 wrote: »

Ehh some of us like to stay at stage 4 because we're RPing a nice vampire that doesn't suck blood

You can't RP a nice vampire that doesn't suck blood, it's not a choice or an indulgence. Verandis Ravenwatch and other Ravenwatch vampires have servants who donate them blood, Gadinas (from "Mist and Shadow") and his brethren feed on the hoarvor after the hoarvor consume human blood from their victims (so they still indirectly feed on murder, of course), Valeric and his followers try to subsist on animal blood and eventually lose control (you can stop Rala from trying to kill someone against her will once, but the next time it happens you won't be around), Galur Rithari admits that he can no longer feed on animals only and therefore hunts Worm Cultists.
All of them find consuming human blood unethical, and all of them are forced to do so sooner or later as it is a physical necessity. Choosing to stay at stage 4 (i.e. starve yourself) would only endanger everyone your character comes in contact with and eventually result in a spontaneous murder. Hence my deep dissatisfaction with the way playable vampirism (and lycanthropy) are handled in ESO.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Garethjolnir wrote: »

As per the title. The feature that they are bringing with the upcoming patch, that guards attack you when using necromancy in town, should also apply to stage 4 vampirism and transformed werewolves.

As someone who stays in Stage 4 Vampirism no matter what, I like this idea...

It would definitely add more of a RP factor to Vampirism as well as highlight something that should have always (IMHO) have been a penalty for going Vamp...

Ryath_Waylander

At least two thirds of my toons are vampires but I think some form of negative reaction by npc's at stage 4 would be fine. With Oblivion, I had to think long and hard before becoming a vampire, due to the sun in the higher stages. Feeding was also good pickpocket practice and it used your stealth skills. It would not be too difficult to manage, seeing as bloody mara is also in the game.

Korah_Eaglecry

Im down for this. Im also okay with Wardens with bears out and Sorcerers with Daedra in tow to be attacked. While we're at it, make anything within city limits no-duel zones.

ESO_Nightingale

Garethjolnir wrote: »

As per the title. The feature that they are bringing with the upcoming patch, that guards attack you when using necromancy in town, should also apply to stage 4 vampirism and transformed werewolves.

If they do this then they better make guards killable.

Thevampirenight

What they could do is make the necromancer, vampire and werewolf aspects of the justice system optional. So it does not hinder players play styles and have it for those who are into immersion. So that way we can roleplay with those aspects if we want to do and those who are just pves who could care less about the justice system or pvpers wouldn't be effected. So yeah I think having those as optional aspects for the justice system would be the best solution.

Gnozo

RogueShark wrote: »

I don't like the idea of the justice system affecting class skills or abilities tbh.
I mean if you make werewolves attackable, then it's going to suck for everyone who's running around and questing as WW. You already lose transformation enough when going into new zones or running from one objective to the next.
Vampires... why? How will they automatically know you're a vampire if you're covered head to toe? Would you expect someone to code that nightmare?
Why are necromancers suddenly being slapped with this justice system when for YEARS we have had sorcs strolling around nonchalantly with DAEDRA following them as DAEDRA attacked and killed people throughout Tamriel? Should that change? Hey have fun as a sorc being ported out of your dungeon with your pets and back into town and immediately being KOS by the guards.

It's inconsistent, it pointlessly affects gameplay, and there's no way to cover every contingency for everything that should be 'illegal'.

So true, i also find it BS that necromancer gets this justice system thingy.

If they implement this guess who never plays his necro in towns. I cant use my skills if i am bored and waiting for a queue. Be it BGs, cyro, dungeon whatever. Instant bounty.....

Guards never cared about anything besides attacking someone. Be it xivkyn poly, werewolf Memento, zombie skin + personality, undead mounts etc.

This is just awful and should never be implemented.

Garethjolnir

I think it could add a little flavour to the game, like it did to Skyrim for instance.

And to make it less harsh, vampires could get a conceal skill/toggle (or even a passive) and only be attacked by nearby guards if active vampirism skills are used.

SpacemanSpiff1

Im a fan of the running idea of "use a skill = get a bounty/attacked" for necromancers, vampires, werewolves, and sorcerers.

raise the undead = criminal (on the way)
feed on a townsperson = criminal (already a thing, just add some flavor dialog)
transform into beastmode = criminal (should be a thing if we're going down this path)
summon a demon = criminal (lets get the stupid pets outa towns)

StarOfElyon

Vampires should have to go to the outlaws refuge, not walk around freely.