Khajiit passives are not nerfed, do the maths.

Chrlynsch

Eww a math...

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

nsmurfer wrote: »

khajiit sustain got NERFED, at least in pvp. It was never the best in sustain, but had

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

all bonuses are additive NOT Multiplicative .

Why you lie?

Things change with the Hirst patch back in 2016
Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)

So where did I "lied"?

it changedback to a different multiplicative formula. check uesp build editor for the exact one.

Because maths are my strong point here is the EUSP formula
(round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) = 514 = Base regen


StaminaRegen = (round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) + Item.StaminaRegen + Set.StaminaRegen + Mundus.StaminaRegen + (Food.StaminaRegen)*(1/(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)))*(1 + CP.StaminaRegen + Skill.StaminaRegen + Buff.StaminaRegen)*(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)

Where is that different than then simplified formula of Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)?
Is exactly the same formula

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Eww a math...

The extra time spent on maths today, were to prove that Khajiit are the Master Race now

Ertosi

No more bonus damage from stealth... That's a big ol' nerf for my Khajiit.

El_Borracho

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Eww a math...

The extra time spent on maths today, were to prove that Khajiit are the Master Race now

All hail the furry Fuhrer

susmitds

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

khajiit sustain got NERFED, at least in pvp. It was never the best in sustain, but had

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

all bonuses are additive NOT Multiplicative .

Why you lie?

Things change with the Hirst patch back in 2016
Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)

So where did I "lied"?

it changedback to a different multiplicative formula. check uesp build editor for the exact one.

Because maths are my strong point here is the EUSP formula
(round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) = 514 = Base regen


StaminaRegen = (round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) + Item.StaminaRegen + Set.StaminaRegen + Mundus.StaminaRegen + (Food.StaminaRegen)*(1/(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)))*(1 + CP.StaminaRegen + Skill.StaminaRegen + Buff.StaminaRegen)*(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)

Where is that different than then simplified formula of Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)?
Is exactly the same formula

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

susmitds wrote: »

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

But the main issue this morning was that there are multiple of posts that 75 sta recovery is a big nerf to the Khajiit compared to the current bonus. And proved that it is not on 99% of the cases. Only on a specific case that doesn't apply even on the PVP as someone argued about it.

If the other races got bigger buffs you need to put in perspective the whole package. Others need to obtain through gear/mundus the 8% critical the Khajiit have, while the Khajiit can use a different set to get that extra bonus.
VO/Hircine to be compared with Redguard reduction, or some regen armour (there is one with 2 sta regen bonuses) to compete with the Bosmer, or add extra damage set or mundus to compete with the Orcs

The same "cookie cutter" gear builds don't apply for all races any more.

Azyle1

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

But the main issue this morning was that there are multiple of posts that 75 sta recovery is a big nerf to the Khajiit compared to the current bonus. And proved that it is not on 99% of the cases. Only on a specific case that doesn't apply even on the PVP as someone argued about it.

If the other races got bigger buffs you need to put in perspective the whole package. Others need to obtain through gear/mundus the 8% critical the Khajiit have, while the Khajiit can use a different set to get that extra bonus.
VO/Hircine to be compared with Redguard reduction, or some regen armour (there is one with 2 sta regen bonuses) to compete with the Bosmer, or add extra damage set or mundus to compete with the Orcs

The same "cookie cutter" gear builds don't apply for all races any more.

Interesting.. so you think we will see Khajiits wearing a different set than say, RG or Dunmer?

susmitds

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

But the main issue this morning was that there are multiple of posts that 75 sta recovery is a big nerf to the Khajiit compared to the current bonus. And proved that it is not on 99% of the cases. Only on a specific case that doesn't apply even on the PVP as someone argued about it.

If the other races got bigger buffs you need to put in perspective the whole package. Others need to obtain through gear/mundus the 8% critical the Khajiit have, while the Khajiit can use a different set to get that extra bonus.
VO/Hircine to be compared with Redguard reduction, or some regen armour (there is one with 2 sta regen bonuses) to compete with the Bosmer, or add extra damage set or mundus to compete with the Orcs

The same "cookie cutter" gear builds don't apply for all races any more.

There are not enough end-game sets that can compete with AY. Ravager got nerfed. TFS is probably the only alternative, yet weaker in fully buffed groups. VO shares 3pc bonus with Rele, hence a wasted bonus. Also, there are other factors to consider like Khajiit 750 stam is weaker than Dunmer 1250 stam.

Fine if you want to consider the whole package, currently 20% health regen amounts to a huge 400ish health regen bonus with just Troll King. True HP regen builds can easily get even more out of it. The new Resourceful passive does not even take that into account.

LiquidPony

susmitds wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

khajiit sustain got NERFED, at least in pvp. It was never the best in sustain, but had

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

all bonuses are additive NOT Multiplicative .

Why you lie?

Things change with the Hirst patch back in 2016
Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)

So where did I "lied"?

it changedback to a different multiplicative formula. check uesp build editor for the exact one.

Because maths are my strong point here is the EUSP formula
(round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) = 514 = Base regen


StaminaRegen = (round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) + Item.StaminaRegen + Set.StaminaRegen + Mundus.StaminaRegen + (Food.StaminaRegen)*(1/(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)))*(1 + CP.StaminaRegen + Skill.StaminaRegen + Buff.StaminaRegen)*(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)

Where is that different than then simplified formula of Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)?
Is exactly the same formula

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

Can you elaborate on this further in a PvE context?

On a Nightblade, I'm fairly certain that +8% weapon critical is a larger DPS increase than +258 weapon damage, and the difference between the two is just about evened out by the fact that Dunmer get +500 more max stamina in these revised racial passives (+750 vs +1250).

So I would think (based on some back-of-the-napkin math) that the "raw PvE DPS numbers" for Khajiit and Dunmer are roughly equivalent, and then of course Khajiit also get the small stamina regen bonus (+75).

It's mostly irrelevant because presumably most people are still going to run Redguard in PvE because it's not possible to sustain on other races, but I would hazard a guess that Khajiit will give slightly more raw DPS for stamblades and stamplars and Dunmer and Orc will be slightly stronger for other classes.

susmitds

LiquidPony wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

khajiit sustain got NERFED, at least in pvp. It was never the best in sustain, but had

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

all bonuses are additive NOT Multiplicative .

Why you lie?

Things change with the Hirst patch back in 2016
Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)

So where did I "lied"?

it changedback to a different multiplicative formula. check uesp build editor for the exact one.

Because maths are my strong point here is the EUSP formula
(round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) = 514 = Base regen


StaminaRegen = (round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) + Item.StaminaRegen + Set.StaminaRegen + Mundus.StaminaRegen + (Food.StaminaRegen)*(1/(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)))*(1 + CP.StaminaRegen + Skill.StaminaRegen + Buff.StaminaRegen)*(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)

Where is that different than then simplified formula of Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)?
Is exactly the same formula

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

Can you elaborate on this further in a PvE context?

On a Nightblade, I'm fairly certain that +8% weapon critical is a larger DPS increase than +258 weapon damage, and the difference between the two is just about evened out by the fact that Dunmer get +500 more max stamina in these revised racial passives (+750 vs +1250).

So I would think (based on some back-of-the-napkin math) that the "raw PvE DPS numbers" for Khajiit and Dunmer are roughly equivalent, and then of course Khajiit also get the small stamina regen bonus (+75).

It's mostly irrelevant because presumably most people are still going to run Redguard in PvE because it's not possible to sustain on other races, but I would hazard a guess that Khajiit will give slightly more raw DPS for stamblades and stamplars and Dunmer and Orc will be slightly stronger for other classes.

@LiquidPony
Just raw damage-

Raw sustain

LiquidPony

susmitds wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

But the main issue this morning was that there are multiple of posts that 75 sta recovery is a big nerf to the Khajiit compared to the current bonus. And proved that it is not on 99% of the cases. Only on a specific case that doesn't apply even on the PVP as someone argued about it.

If the other races got bigger buffs you need to put in perspective the whole package. Others need to obtain through gear/mundus the 8% critical the Khajiit have, while the Khajiit can use a different set to get that extra bonus.
VO/Hircine to be compared with Redguard reduction, or some regen armour (there is one with 2 sta regen bonuses) to compete with the Bosmer, or add extra damage set or mundus to compete with the Orcs

The same "cookie cutter" gear builds don't apply for all races any more.

There are not enough end-game sets that can compete with AY. Ravager got nerfed. TFS is probably the only alternative, yet weaker in fully buffed groups. VO shares 3pc bonus with Rele, hence a wasted bonus. Also, there are other factors to consider like Khajiit 750 stam is weaker than Dunmer 1250 stam.

Fine if you want to consider the whole package, currently 20% health regen amounts to a huge 400ish health regen bonus with just Troll King. True HP regen builds can easily get even more out of it. The new Resourceful passive does not even take that into account.

If you want a set to compete with Advancing Yokeda, look to Veiled Heritance, Briarheart, and even Automaton (on stamsorcs/stamplars). These sets were all competitive previously and got a slight buff with the increase of Minor Brutality to +10%. Obviously on classes with critical damage bonuses (Nightblades and Templars), Advancing Yokeda has an inherent advantage. But for other classes, the Weapon Damage sets are very strong. AY is still meta but there are a few other sets that are very close.

susmitds

LiquidPony wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

But the main issue this morning was that there are multiple of posts that 75 sta recovery is a big nerf to the Khajiit compared to the current bonus. And proved that it is not on 99% of the cases. Only on a specific case that doesn't apply even on the PVP as someone argued about it.

If the other races got bigger buffs you need to put in perspective the whole package. Others need to obtain through gear/mundus the 8% critical the Khajiit have, while the Khajiit can use a different set to get that extra bonus.
VO/Hircine to be compared with Redguard reduction, or some regen armour (there is one with 2 sta regen bonuses) to compete with the Bosmer, or add extra damage set or mundus to compete with the Orcs

The same "cookie cutter" gear builds don't apply for all races any more.

There are not enough end-game sets that can compete with AY. Ravager got nerfed. TFS is probably the only alternative, yet weaker in fully buffed groups. VO shares 3pc bonus with Rele, hence a wasted bonus. Also, there are other factors to consider like Khajiit 750 stam is weaker than Dunmer 1250 stam.

Fine if you want to consider the whole package, currently 20% health regen amounts to a huge 400ish health regen bonus with just Troll King. True HP regen builds can easily get even more out of it. The new Resourceful passive does not even take that into account.

If you want a set to compete with Advancing Yokeda, look to Veiled Heritance, Briarheart, and even Automaton (on stamsorcs/stamplars). These sets were all competitive previously and got a slight buff with the increase of Minor Brutality to +10%. Obviously on classes with critical damage bonuses (Nightblades and Templars), Advancing Yokeda has an inherent advantage. But for other classes, the Weapon Damage sets are very strong. AY is still meta but there are a few other sets that are very close.

Veiled Heritance wastes the 3pc piece bonus. Briarheart comes down to the same old 300 wep dmg average as Hundings.

JobooAGS

susmitds wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

But the main issue this morning was that there are multiple of posts that 75 sta recovery is a big nerf to the Khajiit compared to the current bonus. And proved that it is not on 99% of the cases. Only on a specific case that doesn't apply even on the PVP as someone argued about it.

If the other races got bigger buffs you need to put in perspective the whole package. Others need to obtain through gear/mundus the 8% critical the Khajiit have, while the Khajiit can use a different set to get that extra bonus.
VO/Hircine to be compared with Redguard reduction, or some regen armour (there is one with 2 sta regen bonuses) to compete with the Bosmer, or add extra damage set or mundus to compete with the Orcs

The same "cookie cutter" gear builds don't apply for all races any more.

There are not enough end-game sets that can compete with AY. Ravager got nerfed. TFS is probably the only alternative, yet weaker in fully buffed groups. VO shares 3pc bonus with Rele, hence a wasted bonus. Also, there are other factors to consider like Khajiit 750 stam is weaker than Dunmer 1250 stam.

Fine if you want to consider the whole package, currently 20% health regen amounts to a huge 400ish health regen bonus with just Troll King. True HP regen builds can easily get even more out of it. The new Resourceful passive does not even take that into account.

If you want a set to compete with Advancing Yokeda, look to Veiled Heritance, Briarheart, and even Automaton (on stamsorcs/stamplars). These sets were all competitive previously and got a slight buff with the increase of Minor Brutality to +10%. Obviously on classes with critical damage bonuses (Nightblades and Templars), Advancing Yokeda has an inherent advantage. But for other classes, the Weapon Damage sets are very strong. AY is still meta but there are a few other sets that are very close.

Veiled Heritance wastes the 3pc piece bonus. Briarheart comes down to the same old 300 wep dmg average as Hundings.

Unless you are wearing 5 hundings (no hundings weapons) this statement is misleading.

The 3 piece on veiled heritance does help with surviability so your healers will have an easier time

LiquidPony

susmitds wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

khajiit sustain got NERFED, at least in pvp. It was never the best in sustain, but had

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

all bonuses are additive NOT Multiplicative .

Why you lie?

Things change with the Hirst patch back in 2016
Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)

So where did I "lied"?

it changedback to a different multiplicative formula. check uesp build editor for the exact one.

Because maths are my strong point here is the EUSP formula
(round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) = 514 = Base regen


StaminaRegen = (round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) + Item.StaminaRegen + Set.StaminaRegen + Mundus.StaminaRegen + (Food.StaminaRegen)*(1/(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)))*(1 + CP.StaminaRegen + Skill.StaminaRegen + Buff.StaminaRegen)*(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)

Where is that different than then simplified formula of Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)?
Is exactly the same formula

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

Can you elaborate on this further in a PvE context?

On a Nightblade, I'm fairly certain that +8% weapon critical is a larger DPS increase than +258 weapon damage, and the difference between the two is just about evened out by the fact that Dunmer get +500 more max stamina in these revised racial passives (+750 vs +1250).

So I would think (based on some back-of-the-napkin math) that the "raw PvE DPS numbers" for Khajiit and Dunmer are roughly equivalent, and then of course Khajiit also get the small stamina regen bonus (+75).

It's mostly irrelevant because presumably most people are still going to run Redguard in PvE because it's not possible to sustain on other races, but I would hazard a guess that Khajiit will give slightly more raw DPS for stamblades and stamplars and Dunmer and Orc will be slightly stronger for other classes.

@LiquidPony
Just raw damage-

Raw sustain

I'm not sure what assumptions (class, gear, CP allocation, traits, Major/Minor buffs, food/drink buffs, Berserker, etc.) are baked into those spreadsheets but they don't precisely line up with the character I did the math on (a Redguard stamblade using 5 x Perfect Relequen, 5 x Advancing Yokeda, 2 x Velidreth, 2 x Infused daggers, Infused Maelstrom bow with Berserker enchant, all Robust, all Divines, all Bloodthirsty, Lover Mundus, 7 medium).

In particular, my critical damage modifier (assuming you're including Warhorn here) is 108%, my mean weapon damage is ~4100 (which does not include Minor Brutality), max stamina is much lower (I'm assuming this spreadsheet uses Robust), stamina regen is much lower with bi-stat food, etc.

susmitds wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

But the main issue this morning was that there are multiple of posts that 75 sta recovery is a big nerf to the Khajiit compared to the current bonus. And proved that it is not on 99% of the cases. Only on a specific case that doesn't apply even on the PVP as someone argued about it.

If the other races got bigger buffs you need to put in perspective the whole package. Others need to obtain through gear/mundus the 8% critical the Khajiit have, while the Khajiit can use a different set to get that extra bonus.
VO/Hircine to be compared with Redguard reduction, or some regen armour (there is one with 2 sta regen bonuses) to compete with the Bosmer, or add extra damage set or mundus to compete with the Orcs

The same "cookie cutter" gear builds don't apply for all races any more.

There are not enough end-game sets that can compete with AY. Ravager got nerfed. TFS is probably the only alternative, yet weaker in fully buffed groups. VO shares 3pc bonus with Rele, hence a wasted bonus. Also, there are other factors to consider like Khajiit 750 stam is weaker than Dunmer 1250 stam.

Fine if you want to consider the whole package, currently 20% health regen amounts to a huge 400ish health regen bonus with just Troll King. True HP regen builds can easily get even more out of it. The new Resourceful passive does not even take that into account.

If you want a set to compete with Advancing Yokeda, look to Veiled Heritance, Briarheart, and even Automaton (on stamsorcs/stamplars). These sets were all competitive previously and got a slight buff with the increase of Minor Brutality to +10%. Obviously on classes with critical damage bonuses (Nightblades and Templars), Advancing Yokeda has an inherent advantage. But for other classes, the Weapon Damage sets are very strong. AY is still meta but there are a few other sets that are very close.

Veiled Heritance wastes the 3pc piece bonus. Briarheart comes down to the same old 300 wep dmg average as Hundings.

Obviously Veiled Heritance has a "useless" bonus, but it's still very strong. On a target skeleton on a variety of classes I'm within about 1-2.5% of my AY numbers using Briarheart or Veiled Heritance. And Briarheart does not really come down to the same bonus as Hunding's, because Hunding's is only effectively ~70% of its stated 5-piece bonus as it is only active on one bar. And in some content, they can actually be superior where you may not have time to build up or maintain AY stacks (such as Archcustodian, Rakkhat HM particularly as a front kiter, Lightning Storm Atro, The Serpent because of World Shaper, crazy people who run stam in vAS/vCR, etc.).

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

susmitds wrote: »

There are not enough end-game sets that can compete with AY. Ravager got nerfed. TFS is probably the only alternative, yet weaker in fully buffed groups. VO shares 3pc bonus with Rele, hence a wasted bonus. Also, there are other factors to consider like Khajiit 750 stam is weaker than Dunmer 1250 stam.

Fine if you want to consider the whole package, currently 20% health regen amounts to a huge 400ish health regen bonus with just Troll King. True HP regen builds can easily get even more out of it. The new Resourceful passive does not even take that into account.

As @LiquidPony said, AY can be substituted with Veil Heritance as they are neck and neck in metrics, with Veil easier to apply if you use bow because many do not bothers about vMA. Also much easier to obtain. (par the daggers but use crit mundus instead of lover and go for double maces or a maul or sharpened or Precise, plenty of combinations)

For main set either Relequen (which I use but hate since it is not working in 4man) otherwise War Machine. (great bonus on 4 man content)
Which is great for NB & Templar as they have great cheap spammable ultimates (especially the amazing Crescent Sweep). Add Major brutality with something like potion or Momentum (2h) or Hidden Blade (DW) and everything will melt without trying to keep an eye on Relequen stacks.

There are options there tbh, and the players need to think what suits their play style, abilities and content.
Is useless to use Relequen when you have lag, and cannot add to the stack more then 2-3 times before reset because of mechanics, lag or because is multi mob fight. Different sets giving more upfront benefits are better in this case.
Or sustain, because some might suffer because they cannot weave heavy attacks. (eg console players)

So everything is down to multitude of parameters than just Class & Race.

Malmai

ESO the game of whining and endless nerfs...

Seraphayel

susmitds wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Every other stamina race basically got buffed sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and even Altmer has better sustain.

You implying that Khajiit didn't got buffed? At worse remained the same and got a big Magicka buff.
.

For a pure stamina build, Khajiit remains the same, while all other stamina races got buffed. Magicka buffs don't do much for 90% existing stamina cats. We lost gank damage bonus as well.

As a Magicka Cat I benefit by the changes and I'm very happy about them.

Moonsorrow

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

At pvp, if builds for higher regen, you are wrong. It is a nerf. Your math example is not correct. If used a buff drink, then its flat amount is added to the base, THEN the % so, with just the flat amout and no racial % bonus, you get less when building for high recovery pvp setup.

So all high sustain builds that did get % bonus from racials are getting nerfed sadly.

If I remember correctly the formula is

Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)

Currently we have with current racial (10%) + mooncalf (15%) + 7 medium (28%)

Base 514 + Dring 319 + Mundus (7 gold divines) 363 = 1196
1196 * 1.53 = 1830 (rounded).


With the new skills are

Base 514 + Dring 319 + Mundus (7 gold) 363 + Racial 75 = 1271
1271 * 1.43 = 1818

So all this complaining for losing 12 STA regen under the worst case conditions?

Especially when we get Health and especially Magicka in par to Altmers?

Many in PVP wear at least 1-2 impregnable traits, so they actually get more stamina than losing now!!!!!

@p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Again, wrong. Funny how people make these not knowing the reality of pvp builds. You dont build JUST with drink when you truly go for high sustain. You add more and THEN the % buff makes it even bigger. How can someone miss something so simple in their math, its not JUST using 1 flat buff from a drink, so your math is again wrong when you talk about "worst case scenario". Just give up already, you dont know pvp builds clearly.

Tell you what, go make a bosmer, it has currently biggest racial stam recovery buff, add all sorts of flat bonuses to it and check how much you got stam recovery. Then do math with current upcoming changes. No-cp pvp like battlegrounds, Sotha Sil campaign.. that % buff was way strong than flat numbers they replace them with.

Do the math with a real pvp build, not pve with minimal recovery. "worst conditions" eh? My recovery was around 3k on my bosmer, tell me about a buff or minimal worst case scenario please?

*sigh*

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Moonsorrow wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

At pvp, if builds for higher regen, you are wrong. It is a nerf. Your math example is not correct. If used a buff drink, then its flat amount is added to the base, THEN the % so, with just the flat amout and no racial % bonus, you get less when building for high recovery pvp setup.

So all high sustain builds that did get % bonus from racials are getting nerfed sadly.

If I remember correctly the formula is

Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)

Currently we have with current racial (10%) + mooncalf (15%) + 7 medium (28%)

Base 514 + Dring 319 + Mundus (7 gold divines) 363 = 1196
1196 * 1.53 = 1830 (rounded).


With the new skills are

Base 514 + Dring 319 + Mundus (7 gold) 363 + Racial 75 = 1271
1271 * 1.43 = 1818

So all this complaining for losing 12 STA regen under the worst case conditions?

Especially when we get Health and especially Magicka in par to Altmers?

Many in PVP wear at least 1-2 impregnable traits, so they actually get more stamina than losing now!!!!!

@p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Again, wrong. Funny how people make these not knowing the reality of pvp builds. You dont build JUST with drink when you truly go for high sustain. You add more and THEN the % buff makes it even bigger. How can someone miss something so simple in their math, its not JUST using 1 flat buff from a drink, so your math is again wrong when you talk about "worst case scenario". Just give up already, you dont know pvp builds clearly.

Tell you what, go make a bosmer, it has currently biggest racial stam recovery buff, add all sorts of flat bonuses to it and check how much you got stam recovery. Then do math with current upcoming changes. No-cp pvp like battlegrounds, Sotha Sil campaign.. that % buff was way strong than flat numbers they replace them with.

Do the math with a real pvp build, not pve with minimal recovery. "worst conditions" eh? My recovery was around 3k on my bosmer, tell me about a buff or minimal worst case scenario please?

*sigh*

Could you point what is wrong? The maths? The formula?
Do you need the full formula
(round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) + Item.StaminaRegen + Set.StaminaRegen + Mundus.StaminaRegen + (Food.StaminaRegen)*(1/(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)))*(1 + CP.StaminaRegen + Skill.StaminaRegen + Buff.StaminaRegen)*(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)
better to understand, nor the more simplified form?

Prove to everyone around by doing the maths, where is the mistake. Dont say "you are wrong" and do not give an explanation, because you are the one without comprehensive argument. Just show us your maths.

We do not talk about Bosmer, nor 2500+ sta regen builds, which losing something like 40-50 regen. (which is pitiful lets be honest)

We talk about the big outcry early this morning in the forums that the +75 sta, instead of +10% regen, is a huge nerf, which isn't for the significant majority of people, especially everyone who doesn't give a toss for PVP. And is not a nerf for tanks in heavy armour, or nor magicka casters in light armour, nor those who do not run 7 piece legendary divines with sta regen mundus.

Yet what you haven't respond to, is how with 3000 stamina regen you do damage. Because to put all the sets in place & accessory glyphs to stack that Stamina regen your base weapon damage is 1400 with no crit bonuses, no crit protection, no penetration. Nothing useful to do damage with other than trying to grind the fight until the opponent runs out of resources. Which is completely useless in PVE, and only takes a Templar hybrid tank for your build to hit wall in PVP also.

As for "roll Bosmer" no thank you. If I wanted to play Bosmer I would roll a Bosmer and this discussion is not about Bosmer.
I prefer my 8% spell & weapon crit and the better looks than a tree hugging vegetarian dwarf.

ChunkyCat

I only believe what Alcast tells me.

Moonsorrow

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

At pvp, if builds for higher regen, you are wrong. It is a nerf. Your math example is not correct. If used a buff drink, then its flat amount is added to the base, THEN the % so, with just the flat amout and no racial % bonus, you get less when building for high recovery pvp setup.

So all high sustain builds that did get % bonus from racials are getting nerfed sadly.

If I remember correctly the formula is

Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)

Currently we have with current racial (10%) + mooncalf (15%) + 7 medium (28%)

Base 514 + Dring 319 + Mundus (7 gold divines) 363 = 1196
1196 * 1.53 = 1830 (rounded).


With the new skills are

Base 514 + Dring 319 + Mundus (7 gold) 363 + Racial 75 = 1271
1271 * 1.43 = 1818

So all this complaining for losing 12 STA regen under the worst case conditions?

Especially when we get Health and especially Magicka in par to Altmers?

Many in PVP wear at least 1-2 impregnable traits, so they actually get more stamina than losing now!!!!!

@p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Again, wrong. Funny how people make these not knowing the reality of pvp builds. You dont build JUST with drink when you truly go for high sustain. You add more and THEN the % buff makes it even bigger. How can someone miss something so simple in their math, its not JUST using 1 flat buff from a drink, so your math is again wrong when you talk about "worst case scenario". Just give up already, you dont know pvp builds clearly.

Tell you what, go make a bosmer, it has currently biggest racial stam recovery buff, add all sorts of flat bonuses to it and check how much you got stam recovery. Then do math with current upcoming changes. No-cp pvp like battlegrounds, Sotha Sil campaign.. that % buff was way strong than flat numbers they replace them with.

Do the math with a real pvp build, not pve with minimal recovery. "worst conditions" eh? My recovery was around 3k on my bosmer, tell me about a buff or minimal worst case scenario please?

*sigh*

Could you point what is wrong? The maths? The formula?
Do you need the full formula
(round(9.30612 * Level + 48.7) + Item.StaminaRegen + Set.StaminaRegen + Mundus.StaminaRegen + (Food.StaminaRegen)*(1/(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)))*(1 + CP.StaminaRegen + Skill.StaminaRegen + Buff.StaminaRegen)*(1 + Skill2.StaminaRegen)
better to understand, nor the more simplified form?

Prove to everyone around by doing the maths, where is the mistake. Dont say "you are wrong" and do not give an explanation, because you are the one without comprehensive argument. Just show us your maths.

We do not talk about Bosmer, nor 2500+ sta regen builds, which losing something like 40-50 regen. (which is pitiful lets be honest)

We talk about the big outcry early this morning in the forums that the +75 sta, instead of +10% regen, is a huge nerf, which isn't for the significant majority of people, especially everyone who doesn't give a toss for PVP. And is not a nerf for tanks in heavy armour, or nor magicka casters in light armour, nor those who do not run 7 piece legendary divines with sta regen mundus.

Yet what you haven't respond to, is how with 3000 stamina regen you do damage. Because to put all the sets in place & accessory glyphs to stack that Stamina regen your base weapon damage is 1400 with no crit bonuses, no crit protection, no penetration. Nothing useful to do damage with other than trying to grind the fight until the opponent runs out of resources. Which is completely useless in PVE, and only takes a Templar hybrid tank for your build to hit wall in PVP also.

As for "roll Bosmer" no thank you. If I wanted to play Bosmer I would roll a Bosmer and this discussion is not about Bosmer.
I prefer my 8% spell & weapon crit and the better looks than a tree hugging vegetarian dwarf.

Again, just because you dont see any reason for high recovery, or how to have damage with it, or how to use such high recovery in a group for group benefit.. often even over 4k recovery if on rapid user duty, then i must give up on you. Keep living in your illusion then.

My reality gonna be: my characters will get nerfed.

And sadly your wrong math will not make it untrue.

Also it is funny you keep taking my damage in to your "math" now suddenly as it has anything to do what i am talking about? People who realize they are wrong are always the one starting to use the "but, you dont then have x if you play like that.." and not understand they are just making fools out of themselves haha. A support player in a pvp group is there for support, not for damage. You learn new things each day huh? Or are the tanks in your group at pve trials for their damage? Please enlighten me with your great wisdom again.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Again, just because you dont see any reason for high recovery, or how to have damage with it, or how to use such high recovery in a group for group benefit.. often even over 4k recovery if on rapid user duty, then i must give up on you. Keep living in your illusion then.

My reality gonna be: my characters will get nerfed.

And sadly your wrong math will not make it untrue.

Then why you do not prove that the math is wrong, by doing the calculations and show me where I am wrong.
Instead of acting like that, without providing any proof. Because here you are wrong not me.

ArchMikem

I don't even care about the Regen change. What bothers is me we finally get a bonus to our max resources, but it's only 750, as opposed to a High Elf getting a whole 2,000 Magic.

And no I don't care that I'm getting 750 to all resource pools, I don't play a Hybrid. Who does these days?

GarnetFire17

They take a way a major buff to damage and give a tiny increase regen, and that somehow doesn't equate to a nerf?

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Also it is funny you keep taking my damage in to your "math" now suddenly as it has anything to do what i am talking about? People who realize they are wrong are always the one starting to use the "but, you dont then have x if you play like that.." and not understand they are just making fools out of themselves haha. A support player in a pvp group is there for support, not for damage. You learn new things each day huh? Or are the tanks in your group at pve trials for their damage? Please enlighten me with your great wisdom again.

You updated your post it seems.... You are the one you started mentioning about Bosmer 3000 regen build in a Khajiit discussion.

So asking you again. Show me where my calculation is wrong.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

They take a way a major buff to damage and give a tiny increase regen, and that somehow doesn't equate to a nerf?

The removal of the damage from stealth is completely different matter, and is nerf that cannot be substituted with 750 Stamina/Magicka/Health

But the only people affected are Nightblades in PVP spamming Snipe from stealth. And lets be honest, there are several threads of this has to stop somehow.

Moonsorrow

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Again, just because you dont see any reason for high recovery, or how to have damage with it, or how to use such high recovery in a group for group benefit.. often even over 4k recovery if on rapid user duty, then i must give up on you. Keep living in your illusion then.

My reality gonna be: my characters will get nerfed.

And sadly your wrong math will not make it untrue.

Then why you do not prove that the math is wrong, by doing the calculations and show me where I am wrong.
Instead of acting like that, without providing any proof. Because here you are wrong not me.

I already did prove it. I said that higher regen will get nerfed with the flat number instead of the old % increase. If you cannot understand that, there is nothing more i can do if you do not understand even the use for such a build as your argument was then just say "no damage if such high regen" while it has nothing to do with it.

You should just stop already, high recovery can be used to give group support as a rapids "spammer" so people can move and not be rooted down constantly. And such high recovery was obtainable by the current % bonus. When flat number instead, it will be way less. A fact.

I don`t know how can make it simple for you to calculate. Use drink with regen buff, use all regen jewelry glyphs, use stam regen sets with flat bonuses. Then add the racial regen % buff. See the number. Then do same without the racial regen % buff and with the flat amount instead.

But you dont wanna do that, instead you are starting use the "you dont have damage if you have such high recovery.." to try to sidetrack it to my playstyle.

So, on your logic, support (healer and tank) on your group are about damage too huh? Or does a pve tank need high sustain for their job to support the group? See, you got a mistaken view on this all. But don`t worry, it is common these days to see things from own perspective only and tell "truths" at forums on limited experience.

IlCanis_LupuslI

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

No seems to be mentioning losing the 10 percent damage reduction from stealth. I mean aren't most khajiit nb gankers? I mean that was their niche. I guess they wanted to get rid of niches but take away that and they are just inferior.

@GarnetFire17 no not all khajiit are gankers...

zaria

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

You are missing the point. Every other stamina race on live got a straight buff in raw sustain. Bosmer, Redguard, Orc and Altmer has better sustain than Khajiit now. Adding to it, dunmer has higher raw PvE DPS numbers with Orc just behind, which used to be the Khajiit's forte. Sure, Khajiits can be good magicka DPS now, but the existing 90% Khajiit stamina DDs are already lacking a lot in terms of sustain, the very fact other races with similar or higher raw DPS numbers and sustain now exists will mean Khajiits will lag behind now, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, in PvP, Khajiits are essentially weaker dunmers as crit is a lot inferior to weapon damage. Dunmer gets 1250 mag/stam, while Khajiit gets 750 mag/stam. 75 recovery hardly makes up the difference.

But the main issue this morning was that there are multiple of posts that 75 sta recovery is a big nerf to the Khajiit compared to the current bonus. And proved that it is not on 99% of the cases. Only on a specific case that doesn't apply even on the PVP as someone argued about it.

If the other races got bigger buffs you need to put in perspective the whole package. Others need to obtain through gear/mundus the 8% critical the Khajiit have, while the Khajiit can use a different set to get that extra bonus.
VO/Hircine to be compared with Redguard reduction, or some regen armour (there is one with 2 sta regen bonuses) to compete with the Bosmer, or add extra damage set or mundus to compete with the Orcs

The same "cookie cutter" gear builds don't apply for all races any more.

Interesting point.
They have weaken many of the meta race-class combos especially Dunmer mDK while making many races more generalists. Dunmer stamina builds works now same with Khajiit magic ones.
Races are still different but that can be compensated with gear.

On the other hand we should continue to complain about Khajiit sustain on forum, how louder who better.
This have an chance for an buff
If we are silent we probably get nerfed.

Also VO dont work on dummy so it can be easy proven that we need an buff.
---
Grips tail: An side note Khajiit and Dunmer is pretty safe races for necromancer as they can do both stamina and magic builds well and we know necro will change a lot after released.
Also good races for new players with just one character