Make Race Cosmetic

zyk

I was against this before, but I now believe it is the only way the new racial passives can be accepted. The following idea has been presented in different forms by many others over the years.

I propose renaming Racial Passives to something like Heritage or Specialization and change Race to be only cosmetic. Perhaps preserve the free passives like swim speed. Heritage and Specialization work the same in practice, it's just the RP that's different.

With the Heritage model, a race would predisposed to a specific Heritage, but ultimately its background dictates its passives. So, for example, an Argonian raised by Dunmer would have Dunmer passives. Allow players to change this via gold and token.

With the Specialization model, racial passives would be changed to specific disciplines. For example, Argonian could be renamed to Alchemist.

I think there may be many players like me who chose their races based on stats and then later grew attached to the characters and don't want to change them.

Turelus

Please no.

Cosmetic only races is so bland and honestly the bonuses in ESO whilst good and help power you up are not required.

If people want to play a race because they like it they can, and they'll do fine in all content with that if they're a skilled player.
If people want to be top of leaderboards or make their life easier they choose a race which fits the role.

idk

Turelus wrote: »

Please no.

Cosmetic only races is so bland and honestly the bonuses in ESO whilst good and help power you up are not required.

If people want to play a race because they like it they can, and they'll do fine in all content with that if they're a skilled player.
If people want to be top of leaderboards or make their life easier they choose a race which fits the role.

This and it is clear Zos wants to keep some flavor, even if it is light flavor.

Race choices having meaning is a very attractive aspect of the game and a solid part of TES all along. While I expect tweaks to the change put forward, it still permits race choice having meaning but also has less of an impact on those who make these choices totally on cosmetics.

CipherNine

idk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Please no.

Cosmetic only races is so bland and honestly the bonuses in ESO whilst good and help power you up are not required.

If people want to play a race because they like it they can, and they'll do fine in all content with that if they're a skilled player.
If people want to be top of leaderboards or make their life easier they choose a race which fits the role.

This and it is clear Zos wants to keep some flavor, even if it is light flavor.

Race choices having meaning is a very attractive aspect of the game and a solid part of TES all along. While I expect tweaks to the change put forward, it still permits race choice having meaning but also has less of an impact on those who make these choices totally on cosmetics.

Except that isn't true at all, because this community is such slaves to the meta. You can't get into trials unless your a meta race cause these morons put leaderboard run requirements on everything. Racial passives have done nothing but create a toxic atmosphere.

zyk

I'm all for flavor. I love races that present different gameplay opportunities.

The problem here is that ZOS hasn't merely tweaked the existing system. They've changed the identity of some races. I don't think it is at all fair to change the identity of races 5 years in.

For example, my Dunmer have gone from the masters of fire magic to generalist jack of all trades, but master of none. Being mediocre for both Stam and Magicka builds is a pretty harsh kind of balance -- even if the floor is higher than before.

myskyrim26

Danm I have just posted same thing... I didn't see this post

Aluneth

Turelus wrote: »

Please no.

Cosmetic only races is so bland and honestly the bonuses in ESO whilst good and help power you up are not required.

If people want to play a race because they like it they can, and they'll do fine in all content with that if they're a skilled player.
If people want to be top of leaderboards or make their life easier they choose a race which fits the role.

This.

AcadianPaladin

I agree with OP. I think race should make every bit as much difference as gender in ESO (zero/cosmetic only). I play magic Bosmer and have been doing so in TES games since 2007. The old ESO racials were worthless to her - as are the incoming changes. Each of our characters are told constantly that they are The Chosen One and the only one who can save Nirn by every NPC they meet. Surely, such a character does not need to fit within a stereotyped small racial box.

Turelus

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I agree with OP. I think race should make every bit as much difference as gender in ESO (zero/cosmetic only). I play magic Bosmer and have been doing so in TES games since 2007. The old ESO racials were worthless to her - as are the incoming changes. Each of our characters are told constantly that they are The Chosen One and the only one who can save Nirn by every NPC they meet. Surely, such a character does not need to fit within a stereotyped small racial box.

Maybe they're heroic because they stepped away from their strongest traits and still succeeded?

MewmewGirl

Okay I voted no on what you were proposing, then I realized it was about the new changes I hadn't read about yet. So I edited my comment until I could read up on the changes.

I'm editing again now after I've read the changes happening.

The changes are negligible. They're basically the same as they are now with straight number changes instead of percentages, or doing the same stuff in a slightly different way in the end.

What little change they are doing is actually making things *more* balanced than it was before rather than giving more of a boost to certain races, so I"m confused as to why you would want it this ability to pick now if you were fine with it as it was before.

Since they make so little impact as they are, I still vote no on what you are proposing.

I'm a Khajiit Sorcerer with no bonuses at all to my spell casting. I'm a barely above average player with very average equipment (blue) and just barely climbing the Champion ladder (in the 170s). Despite that I was soloing group content and World Bosses without coming close to dying. It was exciting yes, the only exciting combat I've had in this game since One Tamriel went live pretty much, but not very difficult. Do I really need those few extra numbers that another race gets? It seems really negligible unless you've got OCD about min-maxing. And if you do, you should just go with that race that gives you that max you're looking for.

This is one of the very few things in the game that makes things different. I'm a Khajiit and get Khajiit bonuses, even though they're contrary to my class, those numbers are basically so negligible in the end they don't really matter much. They're a tiny bit of flavor that add a puny bonus to certain actions but in the end don't really mean much. And they're not really getting changed hardly at all.

If you think a specific race is getting too much of a change or bonus, bring that up in the thread they made talking about them. I basically am seeing most stuff being almost the same in the end just done in different ways. A few things are balanced out more than they were before, I don't see most races getting more of a benefit than they had previously other than some that needed a boost getting that tiny bit of a boost.

I'll live with whatever they do, but I'd rather keep the racial bonuses for the races they are meant for.

I appreciate the post and all but I don't think we should be able to have other races bonuses selected for our specific race. Rather, if you have an issue with a bonus, talk about that bonus being changed.

zyk

Obviously if you play a Khajiit Majicka Sorc, you didn't much care about the passives anyway. I completely respect that and have no problem with that point of view whatsoever.

However, some people play ESO as a game. Traditionally in games, the goal is to make the best choices possible. That's not OCD.

Racial passives have significant impacts in competitive PVP and PVE. And when I say competitive, I'm putting the bar pretty low. I really just mean players who try to do their best. Those who don't have that kind of competitive mindset weren't really hurt by the old system because there is very easy versions of all content.

Kuramas9tails

zyk wrote: »

Obviously if you play a Khajiit Majicka Sorc, you didn't much care about the passives anyway. I completely respect that and have no problem with that point of view whatsoever.

However, some people play ESO as a game. Traditionally in games, the goal is to make the best choices possible. That's not OCD.

Racial passives have significant impacts in competitive PVP and PVE. And when I say competitive, I'm putting the bar pretty low. I really just mean to to do their best. Those who don't have that kind of competitive mindset weren't really hurt by the old system because there is very easy versions of all content.

You have no idea how much it hurt my heart to change my MageKhajiit to a MageAltmer when doing my VMOL progression. My heart still aches 2 years later so I wear cat related things on my High elf to make me feel better (Queens-eye outfit and that Cat mask)

zyk

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

You have no idea how much it hurt my heart to change my MageKhajiit to a MageAltmer when doing my VMOL progression. My heart still aches 2 years later so I wear cat related things on my High elf to make me feel better (Queens-eye outfit and that Cat mask)

I think most players with a Dunmer caster feel the same right now.

Skander

No.

HatchetHaro

Turelus wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I agree with OP. I think race should make every bit as much difference as gender in ESO (zero/cosmetic only). I play magic Bosmer and have been doing so in TES games since 2007. The old ESO racials were worthless to her - as are the incoming changes. Each of our characters are told constantly that they are The Chosen One and the only one who can save Nirn by every NPC they meet. Surely, such a character does not need to fit within a stereotyped small racial box.

Maybe they're heroic because they stepped away from their strongest traits and still succeeded?

Been there, done that, gained infamy and meme status among the PC NA end-game raiding community, set and maintained a track record for being a solid Argonian DPS, but people will still choose to exclude me from groups simply because I play an Argonian, no matter how high my skill level is at.

With what we have right now, there will always be a BiS, and where there's a BiS, there's elitism, and where there's elitism, there's toxicity. It all traces back to racial passives.

AcadianPaladin

Turelus wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I agree with OP. I think race should make every bit as much difference as gender in ESO (zero/cosmetic only). I play magic Bosmer and have been doing so in TES games since 2007. The old ESO racials were worthless to her - as are the incoming changes. Each of our characters are told constantly that they are The Chosen One and the only one who can save Nirn by every NPC they meet. Surely, such a character does not need to fit within a stereotyped small racial box.

Maybe they're heroic because they stepped away from their strongest traits and still succeeded?

Most of my chars are Bosmer mages and actually do fine. The others are Bosmer bow/bow archers and also do fine. Methinks there is wisdom in your words though since wood elven wizards and bow/bow are both paths less traveled.

That said, I still like OP's suggestion of race (like gender) = cosmetic only.

susmitds

zyk wrote: »

I'm all for flavor. I love races that present different gameplay opportunities.

The problem here is that ZOS hasn't merely tweaked the existing system. They've changed the identity of some races. I don't think it is at all fair to change the identity of races 5 years in.

For example, my Dunmer have gone from the masters of fire magic to generalist jack of all trades, but master of none. Being mediocre for both Stam and Magicka builds is a pretty harsh kind of balance -- even if the floor is higher than before.

@zyk Dunmer is not really mediocre for both. They got the highest raw damage in stamina DPS and are essentially the 2nd race in Stamina DD.

Skwor

No.

Stebarnz

Game is dumbed down enough, need to make race abilities more varied and builds more varied stop Pidgeon holing the meta where everyone is the same, 20 viable builds for each permutation as opposed to one.

Kuramas9tails

zyk wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

You have no idea how much it hurt my heart to change my MageKhajiit to a MageAltmer when doing my VMOL progression. My heart still aches 2 years later so I wear cat related things on my High elf to make me feel better (Queens-eye outfit and that Cat mask)

I think most players with a Dunmer caster feel the same right now.

My condolence to them.

Neoealth

Making race cosmetic only is probably one of the worst ideas I've ever heard for a TES game, especially an MMO.

mxxo

Best idea ever. I don´t see any point in forcing and punishing ppl to play an altmer for example if they dont like altmer. Its a roleplaying game after all.

Lab3360

CipherNine wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Please no.

Cosmetic only races is so bland and honestly the bonuses in ESO whilst good and help power you up are not required.

If people want to play a race because they like it they can, and they'll do fine in all content with that if they're a skilled player.
If people want to be top of leaderboards or make their life easier they choose a race which fits the role.

This and it is clear Zos wants to keep some flavor, even if it is light flavor.

Race choices having meaning is a very attractive aspect of the game and a solid part of TES all along. While I expect tweaks to the change put forward, it still permits race choice having meaning but also has less of an impact on those who make these choices totally on cosmetics.

Except that isn't true at all, because this community is such slaves to the meta. You can't get into trials unless your a meta race cause these morons put leaderboard run requirements on everything. Racial passives have done nothing but create a toxic atmosphere.

Have you thought about trying a non meta trials guild? There are lots of them out there and they complete content just as efficiently.

CipherNine

mxxo wrote: »

Best idea ever. I don´t see any point in forcing and punishing ppl to play an altmer for example if they dont like altmer. Its a roleplaying game after all.

Yeah but you know people have this delusion that having racial passives makes them playing a certain race a special unique snowflake. It doesn't. You are not different than the other million other players of the same race.

mxxo

CipherNine wrote: »

mxxo wrote: »

Best idea ever. I don´t see any point in forcing and punishing ppl to play an altmer for example if they dont like altmer. Its a roleplaying game after all.

Yeah but you know people have this delusion that having racial passives makes them playing a certain race a special unique snowflake. It doesn't. You are not different than the other million other players of the same race.

Ye or you got the wrong ones and its a punishment. Either weaken their influence or delete passives. Easy.

eso_nya

cosmetic and stats should always be seperated.

combat relevant stats tied to race add as much flavor to gameplay as not having "hide helmet". skins giving boni or mali. outfit styles granting stats. tattoos and piercings reducing max hp. vampires taking dmg from sun and moonlight. genders giving different stats. mundus being locked to month of char creation. locking armortypes, weapons and sets to classes or even the good old d&d randomly rolled stats.

the only thing u achieve is that u force ppl to pick between looks or stats. which is driving ppl away who r unhappy, with either the looks or the performance of their toon.

with the new unified over setpoints, it somewhat feels like: "u rolled a healer, grats! now, when u pick altmer u can equip 3 necklaces and 7 rings; when u pick orc, its 2 rings and 1 necklace. cause lore and immersion, duh!"

Hymzir

For a long time, I was a proponent of racial bonuses, in the name of diversity and realism. But the thing is, they don't really add diversity to a system, they just pressure players to adopt a limited set of build options.

Sure, I can totally relate to the notion of having racial differences. The natural aptitude towards different things and all that. An orc is bigger and stronger than say a gnome or something, and the latter are know for their aptitude with magic - at least in most fantasy worlds. But when you enforce these natural tendencies through game mechanics, then all you really end up doing is enforcing cookie cutter builds, and characters that are clones of each other.

As I got older, I realized how pointless such minutia is, as far as game mechanics go. To realistically model any given races full gamut of possible variation in ability, is far more work than it's worth. You can still say that each race has a tendency towards this or that, but if someone wants to play an unusual example of a given race, say a magically adept person from a race notoriously bad at magic, then let them. If that's what they think will make for a better gaming experience, then by all means, let them.

And don't go talking about "lore" this and "lore" that to me. The racial bonuses have varied with each Elder Scroll game, and the "lore" backing them has also meandered here and there over the years. At the end of the day, the official lore is what ever the latest game decided to say.

Furthermore, in all the other Elder Scroll games, racial abilities have not had as significant impact as they do in ESO. And that is my main gripe about racial bonuses. In any of the other Elder Scroll games, racial bonuses where mostly irrelevant. They influenced a starting characters path, in that certain skills and abilities were easier and faster to master, but ultimately they did not prevent any of the races from excelling in any field. In ESO, however, race has a significant impact and dictates your maximum capability and aptitude.

It really would be for the best if ZOS separated these bonuses from race. They could still keep the flavor bonus and the affinity to specific weapons. Thus each race would retain their racial "affinity" and would make certain paths easier for members of each race to master, but it would not be the crippling limitation to player choice that it currently is.

The various racial bonus suites could then be renamed as Star-signs or birth-fates, or something similar. You could note that each race had an affinity towards a specific sign or fate, and that it would be the one they would have by default, but any individual from any race could have been born under any of them.

So, if you really wanted to make a magicka DPS build, you'd just pick the sign that gets the Altmer buff suite. There, done and dealt with. You'd still retain all the Build choices and min maxing potential and build diversity. but those of us who care more about RPG elements than mechanical minutia, wont have to shoot ourselves in the foot anymore. And everyone can be happy.

But that's just what I would do. Racial bonuses are a tradition in game design, and I doubt they will go the way of the dodo any time soon. People are just too used to having them as a game mechanic, and I was too, for a very long time.

Mr_Walker

No.

heavier

zyk wrote: »

I was against this before, but I now believe it is the only way the new racial passives can be accepted. The following idea has been presented in different forms by many others over the years.

I propose renaming Racial Passives to something like Heritage or Specialization and change Race to be only cosmetic. Perhaps preserve the free passives like swim speed. Heritage and Specialization work the same in practice, it's just the RP that's different.

With the Heritage model, a race would predisposed to a specific Heritage, but ultimately its background dictates its passives. So, for example, an Argonian raised by Dunmer would have Dunmer passives. Allow players to change this via gold and token.

With the Specialization model, racial passives would be changed to specific disciplines. For example, Argonian could be renamed to Alchemist.

I think there may be many players like me who chose their races based on stats and then later grew attached to the characters and don't want to change them.

yeas I want to be an orc but at the same time I don't want to be an orc
upvote
maybe it could be p2w
the only thing I'd consider buying in ESO with crowns atm would be a race change that would retain my good looks while transferring my skillset to that of presently balanced Orc.
gotta go fast.

Arzurag

You can´t change human nature, it´s but of our character to strive for the best.

Sylvermynx

Arzurag wrote: »

You can´t change human nature, it´s but of our character to strive for the best.

*rolls eyes* Nope. I strive to have fun. That's the only reason for playing a game of any sort from my POV. I'm totally non-competitive - I actually do not have a competitive bone in my body, or a gene in my DNA. I don't care if you're better at something than I am.

FUN is the point, for me. I get you might be competitive - but I don't really believe it's "human nature".