New dungeons better be normal

Asys

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

But what about tryhards that complain the game is so easy?

tell them to go solo trials - or fish

AlnilamE

N0TPLAYER2 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

No DLC dungeon is harder than City of Ash 2, so there you go.

Lol

Which dungeons do you think are harder? What makes them harder than the boss with the two air atros in COA2? Or Valkyn Skoria?

People seem to have different perceptions of difficulty. For example, my least favourite DLC is ICP, whereas I've seen people call that the easiest DLC dungeon.

Running the dungeon multiple times and learning the fine points of the mechanics will make any of them look easier. Running it once and declaring it "too hard" will make them "too hard".

AlnilamE

mjharper wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

No DLC dungeon is harder than City of Ash 2, so there you go.

Riiight. I can solo COA2 on normal. But March of Sacrifices? I think not.

I can't solo any of them, but I can run all of them in normal in a group that listens to instructions.

AlnilamE

Zathras wrote: »

Libonotus wrote: »

And by normal I mean the same difficulty as the old dungeons and some DLC dungeons on the normal setting. I don’t think it’s fair to have “normal” dlc dungeons be vet difficulty and vet dlc dungeons be trial difficulty. That means only a minority of the player base get to form the tablet and see Abnur Tharne

I'm glad that there are more people agreeing with this sentiment than backing up the elitists in this thread.

Having a Normal version that has a reasonable level of difficulty for the 90% of the population that doesn't regularly complete Vet and Hard Mode isn't too much to ask for.

The people who want exponentially challenging content can still have that. Continue to make Vet and HM reflect the needs of that community.

Having a Normal mode in new DLC's that reflects the needs of the other community (the larger percentage of the playerbase) doesn't take away from the former group. There isn't a loss here. It's about accessibility.

I don't understand why the Vet/HM crowd needs to pipe in and say, "Git good" when the subject matter of this thread has nothing to do with them, since they don't do Normal mode to begin with.

What I would really like to see is the LFG have filters so you can toggle which DLC's show up.

1. LFG does have a filter where you can choose exactly which dungeons you want to run. It's just not the "sword for hire" random dungeon option that rewards and XP bonus at the end. If you are a "sword for hire" you take the luck of the draw like the rest of us.
2. Is the "Normal" mode DLC you want a dungeon that cannot be failed by anyone? If not, please specify.

I have a friend who started tanking DLC dungeons when they started dropping motif pages. He started with Mazzatun running vet. Realized a lot of people didn't know the mechanics and started running normal as well to teach people what to do. He can run anyone through that, Cradle and now he lives in Scalecaller. I've run with him several times and as long as the PUGs we are running with are following instructions, the run goes really smoothly even if they are first-timers.

That to me sounds like a pretty accessible dungeon in Normal mode.

PS: I very rarely run vet dungeons because I'm casual.

ApostateHobo

Why are people so against having dungeons that aren't ridiculously difficult? You guys do realize the majority of the player base is "casual" according to you, and do in fact play for the story not to be challenged and show off their skillz. Not everyone wants their game to be a big lengthy challenge, or is capable of playing more challenging content for various reasons.

If they're going to make a dlc dungeon connected to the main story, then they will definitely need to make it more accessible to the majority of players somehow. Whether they give it a separate story mode or something it's not going to be the end of the world if a new dungeon doesn't take hours to do, or can't only be completed by an organized group of experienced players. I think people here tend to forget that this is still the Elder Scrolls, and a lot of people play it solely for that fact.

josiahva

Considering I ran normal DLC dungeons just fine with people who started the game just weeks earlier I dont see "normal" difficulty in them as being too hard by any means.

DarcyMardin

If these new dungeons are a crucial part of their new “year-long story,” they had better make them doable and acccessible by all players (on normal) AND provide us with a dungeon story mode so that we can actually take the time to hear and see the story that ZOS is so proud of.

Otherwise it’ll just be the usual “chase the elites thru the dungeon and watch them bail at the end before we can finish the quest and get our skill point.”

Libonotus

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Why are people so against having dungeons that aren't ridiculously difficult? You guys do realize the majority of the player base is "casual" according to you, and do in fact play for the story not to be challenged and show off their skillz. Not everyone wants their game to be a big lengthy challenge, or is capable of playing more challenging content for various reasons.

If they're going to make a dlc dungeon connected to the main story, then they will definitely need to make it more accessible to the majority of players somehow. Whether they give it a separate story mode or something it's not going to be the end of the world if a new dungeon doesn't take hours to do, or can't only be completed by an organized group of experienced players. I think people here tend to forget that this is still the Elder Scrolls, and a lot of people play it solely for that fact.

Elitists will always spit their dummies out if it’s something that helps the casual player and not them. It’s one of the things I’ve noticed during my time on the forums.

Toon_Raider

N0TPLAYER2 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

No DLC dungeon is harder than City of Ash 2, so there you go.

Lol

After the nerf to CoA2, vet is a joke.
The new dungeons starting with Wolfhunter and after is no joke on normal.
I just wanted to complete it on my achievement character but it was as difficult as some vet dungeons.
should have been 15 mins not a grind.

Svenja

Serious question, I find Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair quite easy on Veteran if you don't activate the hardmode, I'd even consider them easier (or equal) to several of the base game dungeons. Are those two really a problem for the average normal-random pug? Everyone is above Level 45 in the normal DLC dungeons, and I considered both dragon bones dungeons to be of a very fair level. ("Everyone can complete them, but the hardmode is really hard")

Numerikuu

DarcyMardin wrote: »

If these new dungeons are a crucial part of their new “year-long story,” they had better make them doable and acccessible by all players (on normal) AND provide us with a dungeon story mode so that we can actually take the time to hear and see the story that ZOS is so proud of.

Otherwise it’ll just be the usual “chase the elites thru the dungeon and watch them bail at the end before we can finish the quest and get our skill point.”

This. If the DLC dungeons normal mode aren't made to vanilla standards and are stupidly long, then no deal.

Add a story mode already. Just remove the dungeons named loot drops from it so there's no worries about it being to easy to get gear. Or if it's easier, disable loot entirely. How hard can it be to make an instance of dungeons like that? Really now.

Zathras

AlnilamE wrote: »

2. Is the "Normal" mode DLC you want a dungeon that cannot be failed by anyone? If not, please specify.

No, I did not say that.

Zathras wrote: »

Having a Normal version that has a reasonable level of difficulty for the 90% of the population that doesn't regularly complete Vet and Hard Mode isn't too much to ask for.

The OP was saying that "Normal" has shifted over the last 2 years with the new DLC to be more on line with Vet difficulty, and I agree. For the rest, please re-read what I wrote.

Zathras

Libonotus wrote: »

Zathras wrote: »

Libonotus wrote: »

And by normal I mean the same difficulty as the old dungeons and some DLC dungeons on the normal setting. I don’t think it’s fair to have “normal” dlc dungeons be vet difficulty and vet dlc dungeons be trial difficulty. That means only a minority of the player base get to form the tablet and see Abnur Tharne

I'm glad that there are more people agreeing with this sentiment than backing up the elitists in this thread.

Having a Normal version that has a reasonable level of difficulty for the 90% of the population that doesn't regularly complete Vet and Hard Mode isn't too much to ask for.

The people who want exponentially challenging content can still have that. Continue to make Vet and HM reflect the needs of that community.

Having a Normal mode in new DLC's that reflects the needs of the other community (the larger percentage of the playerbase) doesn't take away from the former group. There isn't a loss here. It's about accessibility.

I don't understand why the Vet/HM crowd needs to pipe in and say, "Git good" when the subject matter of this thread has nothing to do with them, since they don't do Normal mode to begin with.

What I would really like to see is the LFG have filters so you can toggle which DLC's show up.

Have an insightful

Linaleah

Svenja wrote: »

Serious question, I find Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair quite easy on Veteran if you don't activate the hardmode, I'd even consider them easier (or equal) to several of the base game dungeons. Are those two really a problem for the average normal-random pug? Everyone is above Level 45 in the normal DLC dungeons, and I considered both dragon bones dungeons to be of a very fair level. ("Everyone can complete them, but the hardmode is really hard")

yes, they are a problem. no they are not easier then base game dungeons. they are incredibly frustrating to pug even on normal

Varana

Svenja wrote: »

Serious question, I find Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair quite easy on Veteran if you don't activate the hardmode, I'd even consider them easier (or equal) to several of the base game dungeons. Are those two really a problem for the average normal-random pug?

To be honest, I would never try running vetSCP with a PUG. The chances of failing are very high. I've run it on normal quite a lot, and it's not uncommon for a PUG to wipe once or twice (even if they eventually get to the end).

FlyingSwan

Libonotus wrote: »

And by normal I mean the same difficulty as the old dungeons and some DLC dungeons on the normal setting. I don’t think it’s fair to have “normal” dlc dungeons be vet difficulty and vet dlc dungeons be trial difficulty. That means only a minority of the player base get to form the tablet and see Abnur Tharne

None of the 'normal' mode dungeons are especially challenging. Even the last set of DLC dungeons were eminently easy to complete by a somewhat together team when run in 'normal' mode.

e.g. vMHK needs a co-ordinated team, but nMHK can be PUGged, although it is harder than say nFG, but then there should be a gradient of difficulty to suit all abilities.

AVaelham

When they mentioned that year-long story arc, I thought Wrathstone DLC will turn out to be a Story DLC like Murkmire (with maybe a dungeon, so that everyone would be pleased). I find it pretty disappointing that it is yet just another 2 dungeons pack tbh.

exeeter702

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

But what about tryhards that complain the game is so easy?

So wanting to have meaningful challenge and engagement makes you a tryhard..

Got it.

Toon_Raider

Svenja wrote: »

Serious question, I find Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair quite easy on Veteran if you don't activate the hardmode, I'd even consider them easier (or equal) to several of the base game dungeons. Are those two really a problem for the average normal-random pug? Everyone is above Level 45 in the normal DLC dungeons, and I considered both dragon bones dungeons to be of a very fair level. ("Everyone can complete them, but the hardmode is really hard")

You probably do trails and and vet dungeons routinely.
The majority of people playing this game have no interest in vet content or not there yet.
They play for FUN, not getting the best gear and bragging rights.
I have the played from the game launch and i did my first dungeon 2 years later as it held no interest for me except getting the skill point.
it is still the only reason for me to do them, with very few gear sets worth farming.
Now with jewelry crafting and the Golden there is actually no reason to do a vet dungeon for jewelry or if you already have the monster helms you need.
The game consists of more than dungeons and trails.

haelene

exeeter702 wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

But what about tryhards that complain the game is so easy?

So wanting to have meaningful challenge and engagement makes you a tryhard..

Got it.

No of course not! Wanting a challenge is a totally valid playstyle.

Pretending that wanting a meaningful challenge and engagement is the only "true playstyle", and that every other playstyle is lesser in some way makes one a tryhard. Insisting that a "meaningful challenge" is the only way to get "meaningful engagement" makes one a tryhard.

Please note, I'm speaking in generalities here, not specifically about you.

j.greenmanb16_ESO

New dungeons don't necessarily need to be easier or on par with some of the vanilla ones, I would just like to not accidentally commit to a 4000 hour dungeon (on normal) randomly before bed.

Silver_Strider

If you don't know basic game mechanics (Dodging, Bashing, etc.) then I hope these dungeons are Nightmare fuel for you.

Cardthief

jaws343 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

No DLC dungeon is harder than City of Ash 2, so there you go.

City of Ash 2 is a medium level dungeon. Every DLC dungeon is harder than it. I personally think that since the DLC dungeons this year are all tied to the story, they should be medium difficulty, similar to COA2. It'll make it easy enough for players to run through on Normal and get the story, but add a bit of a challenge without being mindnumbingly difficult. We've had 6 straight hard dungeons, each harder than the last.

Well, except WGT, that's pretty much on the exact same level as CoAII, its pretty much the easiest DLC dungeon to date.

Mr_Walker

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

But what about tryhards that complain the game is so easy?

The dungeon could be an unavoidable one shot mechanic that kills you upon entry and they'd still complain it was too easy.

karekiz

ElliottXO wrote: »

I don't mind them being difficult, but why does every DLC dungeon need to be a 2 hours run?

They aren't really.

Arguably CoA2 and Mazz can go with longest run if you actually kill all trash with at level teams.

However with march just skip the hunts the dungeon is doable in roughly 30-40 mins avg. Moonhunter isn't very long honestly.

*Edit forgot about bloodroot/ICP too. Those are quite lengthy.

j.greenmanb16_ESO

karekiz wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

I don't mind them being difficult, but why does every DLC dungeon need to be a 2 hours run?

They aren't really.

Arguably CoA2 and Mazz can go with longest run if you actually kill all trash with at level teams.

However with march just skip the hunts the dungeon is doable in roughly 30-40 mins avg. Moonhunter isn't very long honestly.

*Edit forgot about bloodroot/ICP too. Those are quite lengthy.

Should a person really have to skip the contents of a dungeon to make it enjoyable instead of a grind, though?

Dreyloch

Few things here.
First off, normal mode base game dungeons (just my opinion here) should start at CP 160. DLC normal mode should start at CP300, just for the simple fact these are dungeons coming out well after the initial release of the game. This means after almost 5 years, unless you just got the game within the last 6 months, you should have "some" knowledge of your class and mechanics of your avatar and the NPC's your fighting.

DLC's are meant to be harder in normal mode because many players have been around a good while, and if they are going to pay for something (thru ESO plus or crowns or w/e) then they want something a little more challenging for the money. They have grown since the last dungeon's came out. They have done them 100's of times. They want something new, and they want something that isn't going to take 15 minutes to complete. Thereby, waiting for 3 or 6 more months till the next batch comes out.

I am mainly a PvP'er and if anyone has the right to complain it's us. Having to do PvE content where we (or maybe just myself) just don't give a crap about storylines and lore and all that. We want to get the gear that's going to help us kill other players. But ya know what? I HAVE done just about every dungeon in game in one form or another. I've done vMA, vDSA, Trails...all of that to accomplish my goal of having the best gear/tools when it comes to defeating other players.

My point is, if you want the best gear and tools for the job, ya need to work for it. Stop this sissy talk about "Story modes", man-(or woman) up and work for it. Join a guild, make new friends, do stuff together and everyone prospers. It make take you longer? But most of you are saying your "casual" anyway. So what difference does time make? Stop asking to be handed stuff simply because your not able to play as often. It's like asking for more money from your boss and saying "But I can only show up 2 days a week, instead of 5". It's not right. So please stop. Not trying to be elitest here. Just giving the simple facts of life.

eso_nya

if the new dungeons r "part of the yearlong storyline" their normal modes shall not be harder than fungal grotto 1. their vet/hms can be as difficult as they wanna be. if its supposed to be "story" i want to be able to play it as "story". means on my own, at my pace, during a time convinient to me, w/o depending on three other ppl (to pull levers), w/o three ppl rushing thru it and breaking the q (like darkshade caverns), w/o a timer kicking me out before i can finish the q, w/o the quest autoadvancing before i can listen to it.
given theres another dungeon dlc announced for q3, having 50% of the story unaccessable/unenjoyable out of watching it on youtube would really suck.

i'm okay with "getting good" enough to solo them, heck the reason to start soloing them was that i wanted to know their stories. (and curiosity if i could beat v/hm aswell after i had the first few done)

well i guess thats what i get for complaining that all i got for 12 month sub during 2018 was 4 dungeons i have no intention to run.

jaws343

Cardthief wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

No DLC dungeon is harder than City of Ash 2, so there you go.

City of Ash 2 is a medium level dungeon. Every DLC dungeon is harder than it. I personally think that since the DLC dungeons this year are all tied to the story, they should be medium difficulty, similar to COA2. It'll make it easy enough for players to run through on Normal and get the story, but add a bit of a challenge without being mindnumbingly difficult. We've had 6 straight hard dungeons, each harder than the last.

Well, except WGT, that's pretty much on the exact same level as CoAII, its pretty much the easiest DLC dungeon to date.

I actually think that WGT and ICP are more Medium level dungeons compared to the recent DLC dungeons. So yeah, if these new ones were that level, that would be great. Normal would be doable with a PUG that wasn't made of all vet level players, and Vet would provide enough of a challenge without being a mechanic skipping walkthrough. The current DLC dungeon habit of making Normal on par with the Medium level dungeon Vet modes is getting old.

Cardthief

AlnilamE wrote: »

N0TPLAYER2 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

No DLC dungeon is harder than City of Ash 2, so there you go.

Lol

Which dungeons do you think are harder? What makes them harder than the boss with the two air atros in COA2? Or Valkyn Skoria?

People seem to have different perceptions of difficulty. For example, my least favourite DLC is ICP, whereas I've seen people call that the easiest DLC dungeon.

Running the dungeon multiple times and learning the fine points of the mechanics will make any of them look easier. Running it once and declaring it "too hard" will make them "too hard".

The Ash Titan boss is pretty much a joke, the Air Attronachs don't really do anything, all you have to do for that fight is focus the Ash Titan while the tank keeps the Attros taunted and takes them for a stroll.

As for Skoria, its more of a DPS race than anything, and even if you fail to kill him before he destroys all the main platforms, as long as you have a good healer then you can survive the fire on the small islands.

As for which are more difficult?
ICP if your team has low DPS
FH if your team doesn't know/follow the final boss mechanics (happens with PuGs a LOT)
BF if your team doesn't know the mechanics or doesn't focus the smaller boss spawns for the final boss
RoM if your team doesn't know the mechanics for the final boss
FL if your team doesn't know the mechanics for the bone animals boss fight
SP final boss HM can be a literal RNG nightmare
MHK if your team doesn't know the mechanics (this one is a PuG killer for the most part)
MoS final boss HM can be difficult for some PuGs