Spell-crafting SHOULD NOT be implemented and I hope it NEVER is!

TimeDazzler

We need spell crafting and more bar space. I think that zenimax can balance it so that the spells are just as good but not better than current abilities. It will open up build diversity and fill in holes in peoples builds.

Mintaka5

The people who don't want this are the meta chasers. They want to ensure that no one can craft a skill that can finally counter their meta trash.

The truly powerful feed ideology to the masses like fast food while they dine on the most rarified delicacy of all: impunity.

- N. Klein

FakeFox

I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between a Singleplayer-RPG and a MMORPG. In a singleplayer environment a open skill system increases build diversity because it's purely about roleplay with no competition or need for balancing. In a multiplayer environment a open skill system decreases build diversity because it is a competitive environment and build strength is very important. People want spellcrafting because wiping out entire cities with a single spell was fun in oblivion, but this has no place in a MMO and this fantasy will not be fulfilled even if they introduce Spellcrafting.

kathandira

Tasear wrote: »

We need build diversity.

The problem with Build Diversity, is that weapons are lumped together.

We have:

Dual Wield
Two Handed

These two could be split into

Axes
Swords
Maces
Daggers

Then we have:

Destruction Staff
Restoration Staff

These two can be split into

Inferno Staff
Lightning Staff
Frost Staff
Restoration Staff

This goes from 4 skill lines, to 8 skill lines, doubling your options of ways to build your character.

DedEmbryonicCell19

josiahva wrote: »

DedEmbryonicCell19 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This game is in dire need of build diversity. At the moment every Stamina and Magicka build is the same. Most Tank and Healer builds are the same. This game has so many skills but the diversity is non-existent.

Spellcrafting could break the meta builds and open up new possibilities. We need it. We need more tools to generate or alter skills and crack this boring build-meta-system up.

I agree and disagree with this ..

On the one note I would love to believe this would build lots of diversity, at first ..

On the second note I believe there would be like 4-5 spell everybody would make because of their power ..

This game has a ton of diversity, but people don't want to die to another class so they don't even try .. if everybody looked to have fun and not worry about what class beats them this game would just be better for everybody ..

Some classes SHOULD be more powerful than others ..

Thats just the thing...the vast majority will ALWAYS follow the meta...spellcrafting WILL NOT CHANGE THAT, and that is not the point of spellcrafting, the point is to give the average player who IS NOT A MIN/MAXING META PLAYER the ability to branch out into strange little niche builds. It does not matter if these builds are competitive as long as they are fun for the creator. People on this forum forget that those posting here are not the average player. The average player plays the game a few hours a week and doesnt waste their time posting about games on forums. The fact is that spellcrafting would enhance the experience of "filthy casuals" and if the costing is always above that of the equivalent class skill balance would be easy.

But they won't be fun because people will be calling for nerfs every two seconds .. it's super counter-productive ..

Kiralyn2000

Mintaka5 wrote: »

The people who don't want this are the meta chasers. They want to ensure that no one can craft a skill that can finally counter their meta trash.

That doesn't make sense. Because any new system (new skill line, spellcrafting, new set, etc) is another opportunity for them to find a new meta. If spellcrafting would make something that could "finally counter their meta trash".... it would become the meta and they'd be using it too.


(I don't meta-chase. I don't even bother with anything that has a leaderboard or competition. Hell, I don't even use both skill bars. I solo around the world exploring, questing, and poking in corners. But I think all these grandiose expectations of how Spellcrafting Will Save Us All are crazy. It'll just be another thing min-maxed into a new meta by the theorycrafters, just like every single other power & system change in every MMO since ever. You're going to be disappointed. It's certainly not going to bring "build diversity" - because people who care about High End Play will always use Best Meta, and the people who don't are already using whatever skills they want to.)

Vasoka

Seraphayel wrote: »

This game is in dire need of build diversity. At the moment every Stamina and Magicka build is the same. Most Tank and Healer builds are the same. This game has so many skills but the diversity is non-existent.

Spellcrafting could break the meta builds and open up new possibilities. We need it. We need more tools to generate or alter skills and crack this boring build-meta-system up.

100% agreed, it's laughable. There is NO diversity to speak of, every single build uses the exact same meta skills and that's that.

ELDER STAFFS ONLINE. Staff/dual wield. That's it - enjoy. With the same boring skills.

Ogou

Don't care. Still want it

Katahdin

It will just be the spells version of poisons.
People will just use whatever is most OP for the situation

Don't see the point.

Beardimus

Mintaka5 wrote: »

The people who don't want this are the meta chasers. They want to ensure that no one can craft a skill that can finally counter their meta trash.

The truly powerful feed ideology to the masses like fast food while they dine on the most rarified delicacy of all: impunity.

- N. Klein

I'd say the COMPLETE opposite of that. The meta chasers will find what's OP / Broken in a heartbeat as they generally have the time to put into it.

Spellcrafting sounds fun. I like fun, But i like stuff that works more.

Balance is all over the show and this will only make it worse. Look at what frag Nerf did to a class, or Rune Cage buff. That alone was mayhem.

But spell crafting and necromancers is shiny. People buy shiny. People don't buy balance

Mintaka5

Makes

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

That doesn't make sense. Because any new system (new skill line, spellcrafting, new set, etc) is another opportunity for them to find a new meta. If spellcrafting would make something that could "finally counter their meta trash".... it would become the meta and they'd be using it too.

Well 5 skill slots, times however many variations of health, stamina, and/or magicka features you can layer, plus all the other skill characteristics like shields, wards, recovery, cross class skill features, mobility, damage buffs, health debuffs, you get the picture...

To me that seems like a decent amount of variations, and honestly another player trying to reverse engineer someone else's crafted skill build out, on top of the gear and class buildouts, it would be a huge undertaking to map all that out.

My point was that it's not an end-all-be-all solution to fixing the brokenness of this game, but really makes it more difficult for those whose goal is meta to encompass a smaller set of variations and therefore dominate the game.

Silver_Strider

That's your opinion on the matter, based on absolutely nothing since we don't even know how Spellcrafting will be implemented, if at all. All we've seen is a 7 second trailer of what appears to be on a similar vein to Spellcrafting's original concept ideas and nothing else; No knowing what spells we can make, how they interact with current passives, if we can morph them or anything at all really.

kathandira

Vasoka wrote: »

People don't buy balance

I say this all the time. There is no such thing as Balance in a game with Classes, Gear, and allocatable Stats/Skills. When there are so many variables, there will always be a "Best Build" that trivializes everything. This isn't exclusive to Multiplayer games either.

Balance would be a game with 1 class, 1 weapon, No variables.

Either people need to accept that Balance will never be achieved and enjoy these games for what they are, or find a new hobby if they just cannot accept it.

Mintaka5

Beardimus wrote: »

I'd say the COMPLETE opposite of that. The meta chasers will find what's OP / Broken in a heartbeat as they generally have the time to put into it.

See my response to @Kiralyn2000

josiahva

DedEmbryonicCell19 wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

DedEmbryonicCell19 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This game is in dire need of build diversity. At the moment every Stamina and Magicka build is the same. Most Tank and Healer builds are the same. This game has so many skills but the diversity is non-existent.

Spellcrafting could break the meta builds and open up new possibilities. We need it. We need more tools to generate or alter skills and crack this boring build-meta-system up.

I agree and disagree with this ..

On the one note I would love to believe this would build lots of diversity, at first ..

On the second note I believe there would be like 4-5 spell everybody would make because of their power ..

This game has a ton of diversity, but people don't want to die to another class so they don't even try .. if everybody looked to have fun and not worry about what class beats them this game would just be better for everybody ..

Some classes SHOULD be more powerful than others ..

Thats just the thing...the vast majority will ALWAYS follow the meta...spellcrafting WILL NOT CHANGE THAT, and that is not the point of spellcrafting, the point is to give the average player who IS NOT A MIN/MAXING META PLAYER the ability to branch out into strange little niche builds. It does not matter if these builds are competitive as long as they are fun for the creator. People on this forum forget that those posting here are not the average player. The average player plays the game a few hours a week and doesnt waste their time posting about games on forums. The fact is that spellcrafting would enhance the experience of "filthy casuals" and if the costing is always above that of the equivalent class skill balance would be easy.

But they won't be fun because people will be calling for nerfs every two seconds .. it's super counter-productive ..

No, there will be calls for certain abilities to be nerfed(as there ALWAYS are) but the vast majority of niche spells will be unaffected by this, just like say the set "Way of martial knowledge" is unaffected by all the cries to nerf more meta sets. You have a billion different sets in this game and only a few are meta....I just want the same thing for skills. I often use non-meta sets in my builds, this wont be any different. After all...they manage "balance"(if you can call it that) with all the different sets out there...this would be no different. I am sure some spells would be OP and be nerfed(or perceived as such at least) but I dont want spellcrafting for OP meta skills, I want it for niche builds that are more fun to play.

Qbiken

Tasear wrote: »

We need build diversity.

You need to realise it's already a thing and stop shitposting threads on this forum.

iiYuki

josiahva wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

It seems to be a forum meme at this point, people making a new thread multiple times a day about spell-crafting, why we NEED it and how they should implement it etc though I think people seem to be forgetting that ZO$ already have a problem balancing the game without adding even more problems.
Either Spell-crafting will take over the game to a point where only crafted spells are viable or its underwhelming and no one uses it.There is literally no place for spell-crafting to exist in the current game without causing massive problems or cause massive disappointment when its ***.
We all know there will be guides on building "perfect" crafted spells that outclass your class skills in every way, they will streamline all stamina and magicka classes to play in one way and before people go on about "you dont need to follow the META", you do if you want to succeed outside of some obscure build.
I just dont think people are considering how this stuff actually impacts the game. ZO$ already nerfs stuff with a sledgehammer, how long do we think spell-crafting will be a thing if it even was implemented? A few weeks of OP as all hell spells that destroy PvP and make PvE a bore before enough people QQ on the forums and its nerfed into the ground and no-one uses it anymore, and no ZO$ won't "balance" it, they'll nerf it like they nerf everything, by decimating it beyond all recognition.
Spell-crafting is a developer nightmare (especially for incompetent devs *CoughCough* that don't know how to fine tune) and I really hope they never add it in any form to the game.

Not everyone is a meta-chaser. I am perfectly ok with spellcrafting being underwhelming. You have just described EVERY ABILITY IN THE GAME, either they are OP or underwhelming....that is exactly what I want for spellcrafting(or skillcrafting rather since it would apply to both magicka and stamina spells) to be just like other skills, but allow an expansion of the toolbox available to all builds. You increase the cost slightly from similar class skills and voila! instant balance...utility spells rather than OP spells...easy.

I understand that and I have no problem with people taking that view however I'm talking about this from someones POV (myself) that is someone who follows the META very closely and spell crafting if not done right could result in complete streamlining of the game where it becomes 1 stamina build and 1 magicka build regardless of what class you play.

iiYuki

Mintaka5 wrote: »

The people who don't want this are the meta chasers. They want to ensure that no one can craft a skill that can finally counter their meta trash.

The truly powerful feed ideology to the masses like fast food while they dine on the most rarified delicacy of all: impunity.

- N. Klein

If anything spell crafting will BECOME the meta, it will create builds that lack any form of diversity to a point where it will no longer matter what class or race you pick because you just use the 10 perfectly crafted spells that fit either a stamina or magicka build.

Sandman929

I'd rather see something ambitious like spell crafting, even with some hurdles and problems, then what some seem to want with minor tweaks and stagnation. I'm fine with nerfs, buffs, and changes because I want the game to change, not just get comfortable with what I'm doing and do that until eventual boredom.

Beardimus

Mintaka5 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'd say the COMPLETE opposite of that. The meta chasers will find what's OP / Broken in a heartbeat as they generally have the time to put into it.

See my response to @Kiralyn2000

Saw it. And disagree.

I've played since launch, multiple additions since then, gear. Poisons, prpc setsPeople find what's best and use it each and everything time.

PTS gets stacked with meta chasers and on launch day countless 'Worlds first' claims pop up.

I get the concept of your point and will be happy if its so. BUT personally don't think so.

Robo_Hobo

There will always be BIS. Spellcrafting wouldn't change that. It may change what the BIS is, but any update that adds new sets and abilities would do that, and would continue to do that even after Spellcrafting comes out (if it ever does).

It's a problem with the mentality of needing to have BIS everything, and can't be fixed by any amount of balancing, because anything that's 0.1% better than something else is considered OP, and anything 0.1% less is considered useless, by endgame standards.

But since the vast majority of the playerbase isn't endgame, having more options to create more playstyles, even if they aren't BIS, would be something a lot of players would enjoy. It's kind of the Heart of TES, being able to try new playstyles and coming up with something you enjoy, so more options for that is wonderful.

Endgame players won't like it either way, because if spellcrafting does change the BIS, then that just makes them have to grunt and moan and have to grind new things to be BIS again, and if it doesn't, then that makes them grunt and moan because then this update wouldn't give them anything that they feel is something worth striving to use.

Basically in other words endgame always has something to complain about, and spellcrafting isn't a new thing in that regard - it'll just be like that for any update that: adds new sets and abilities.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Starlock wrote: »

I do consider how it impacts the game. I happen to not care about the mythical beast folks call "balance." I'm not a competitive gamer. I barely do PvP, and I'm certainly not into being a sheep who follows whatever some streamer says is the best for some such competitive PvE activity. I'm a storyteller who builds characters with personality and identity. Spellcrafting would do nothing but enhance that.

Preach!

Mintaka5 wrote: »

The people who don't want this are the meta chasers. They want to ensure that no one can craft a skill that can finally counter their meta trash.

The truly powerful feed ideology to the masses like fast food while they dine on the most rarified delicacy of all: impunity.

- N. Klein

Whatever buddy, you keep telling yourself that. I don’t care about spellcrafting, it’s been a dead horse since 2014, and frankly I don’t care about builds either. With Necromancers, I have an idea for that. Like the person above I like to build characters with an identity. Hell one of my Skyrim characters was made in ESO and has a dA rp account.

Claudman

Yes, I too enjoy reusing the same spells from the same trees while leveling the same guilds over and over again. Repetition is nice and is definitely not a monotonous chore. /s

JadonSky

FakeFox wrote: »

I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between a Singleplayer-RPG and a MMORPG. In a singleplayer environment a open skill system increases build diversity because it's purely about roleplay with no competition or need for balancing. In a multiplayer environment a open skill system decreases build diversity because it is a competitive environment and build strength is very important. People want spellcrafting because wiping out entire cities with a single spell was fun in oblivion, but this has no place in a MMO and this fantasy will not be fulfilled even if they introduce Spellcrafting.

^^^This is the most accurate statement. Doesn't matter what they implement its an MMO and in MMO its all about finding the meta and there will always be one path that is better to run to then the rest. There will be those players that only want the meta then those that like to do their own thing. Its just part of it.

With that said I think adding a new aspect to an mmo and making something new to achieve is always a good thing. And seeing some new skills is always a treat even in the end once they are out long enough they will become the norm.

Kajuratus

iiYuki wrote: »

Either Spell-crafting will take over the game to a point where only crafted spells are viable or its underwhelming and no one uses it.There is literally no place for spell-crafting to exist in the current game without causing massive problems or cause massive disappointment when its ***.
We all know there will be guides on building "perfect" crafted spells that outclass your class skills in every way, they will streamline all stamina and magicka classes to play in one way and before people go on about "you dont need to follow the META", you do if you want to succeed outside of some obscure build.
I just dont think people are considering how this stuff actually impacts the game. ZO$ already nerfs stuff with a sledgehammer, how long do we think spell-crafting will be a thing if it even was implemented? A few weeks of OP as all hell spells that destroy PvP and make PvE a bore before enough people QQ on the forums and its nerfed into the ground and no-one uses it anymore, and no ZO$ won't "balance" it, they'll nerf it like they nerf everything, by decimating it beyond all recognition.

I fail to see how this will be any different than it is now. One class is outperforming everyone else? Everyone will flock to that class. One weapon does more damage than any other? Everyone flocks to that weapon.

Agenericname

Starlock wrote: »

I do consider how it impacts the game. I happen to not care about the mythical beast folks call "balance." I'm not a competitive gamer. I barely do PvP, and I'm certainly not into being a sheep who follows whatever some streamer says is the best for some such competitive PvE activity. I'm a storyteller who builds characters with personality and identity. Spellcrafting would do nothing but enhance that.

I doubt that you would find that competitive players use those builds as often as one may think or that they're the majority of the people that do. There's a demographic of people who use those builds simply because, for whatever reason, they don't invest the time into crunching the numbers and they want to participate in the content. By itself this isn't competitive in nature, its cooperative since the goal is just a clear and not necessarily a score.

I know quite a few people, and ESO seems to have an older demographic that likely contributes to this, that only play a few hours per week that want to run content with their friends, be it trials, dungeons, vet dungeons, group arenas, etc. It could be that they have kids, careers, grand kids, or whatever, but not everyone has the time, patience, or desire to construct their own functional builds without some type of guide.

Given the abcense of certain types of information in the game itself, it makes sense that people will gravitate toward people that are publishing builds. An example, where would be the best place to find information about weaving light attacks? YouTube most likely. You could make the argument that it isn't a hard requirement and I wouldn't debate that, but then you look at the Relequen set and it's easy to why people seek that information and ZOS doesn't offer it.

KhajiitFelix

Faulgor wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

I do consider how it impacts the game. I happen to not care about the mythical beast folks call "balance." I'm not a competitive gamer. I barely do PvP, and I'm certainly not into being a sheep who follows whatever some streamer says is the best for some such competitive PvE activity. I'm a storyteller who builds characters with personality and identity. Spellcrafting would do nothing but enhance that.

Yeah. How is my Waterwalking spell going to break everyone's balance?

I have yet to see an argument against spellcrafting that couldn't be made against any new skill added to the game.
Everyone's going to use the best possible skill? Like now? That's the worst case scenario?
The only way to enrich build diversity is through making different skills preferable for different classes and builds, which ZOS can screw up or perfect no matter how many non-class skills there are.

Then how can slaughterfish stop you from escaping Tamriel to frikin Akavir?

Dracan_Fontom

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

I do consider how it impacts the game. I happen to not care about the mythical beast folks call "balance." I'm not a competitive gamer. I barely do PvP, and I'm certainly not into being a sheep who follows whatever some streamer says is the best for some such competitive PvE activity. I'm a storyteller who builds characters with personality and identity. Spellcrafting would do nothing but enhance that.

Yeah. How is my Waterwalking spell going to break everyone's balance?

I have yet to see an argument against spellcrafting that couldn't be made against any new skill added to the game.
Everyone's going to use the best possible skill? Like now? That's the worst case scenario?
The only way to enrich build diversity is through making different skills preferable for different classes and builds, which ZOS can screw up or perfect no matter how many non-class skills there are.

Then how can slaughterfish stop you from escaping Tamriel to frikin Akavir?

Invisible Wall of Death?

_Ahala_

Bring on the spell crafting... game needs more diversity

Mintaka5

Beardimus wrote: »

I'd say the COMPLETE opposite of that. The meta chasers will find what's OP / Broken in a heartbeat as they generally have the time to put into it.

See my response to @Kiralyn2000

Beardimus wrote: »

Mintaka5 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'd say the COMPLETE opposite of that. The meta chasers will find what's OP / Broken in a heartbeat as they generally have the time to put into it.

See my response to @Kiralyn2000

Saw it. And disagree.

I've played since launch, multiple additions since then, gear. Poisons, prpc setsPeople find what's best and use it each and everything time.

PTS gets stacked with meta chasers and on launch day countless 'Worlds first' claims pop up.

I get the concept of your point and will be happy if its so. BUT personally don't think so.

I disagree with your argument, and honestly it is not very convincing even if I was on the fence about it. Look, I've played for years, all kinds of content, multiple builds, and the one thing I've noticed is that a good amount of players copy powerful builds established by other players. Then we go on and on about how OP things are or how weak things are, and there is an apparent set of builds that dominate all others. The mere fact that anyone can make an exact copy build and dominate the game with that build, tells me that one, skill has nothing to do with it, and two, being that builds are so easy to replicate the game fails at build diversity.

Honestly, I just don't see why the devs would go through so much trouble to provide sets and skills if they are meant not to be the best. We might as well just slot basic gear, and throw punches. Instead of folks exploring all the possibilities we get a handful of top performing metas, that everyone is going to use even it doesn't meet the play style needs. Go to Cyrodiil, and see how often you get tagged by some bow-boi spamming snipes from stealth, and proccing Sloads and Zaan on top of all that. No one, not even you, can argue that is a unique build. I mean when I run in Cyrodiil, even if they don't have the build, you see a ton of copycats all sitting in stealth thinking they are going to be the next Alcast. It's ridiculous, and the game combinations now as they stand are too easy to copy and are not diverse enough by measure of what the player community has applied and practiced in the game.

I would welcome any system in the game that would make our characters mysteriously unique. This would make PvP way more challenging for those who've already mastered cookie-cutter metas. They need to go to the next level. It would be so much better than what we have now, which is basically a bunch of cloned crutch builds.