The value of lore and the season of dragons, cats, and necromancy

tinythinker

I'm sure some people won't even read this sentence in their haste to flame, troll, and jump into the argument they are ready to fight based on their own assumptions.

This isn't posted for people to antagonize each other, if that's still possible on these forums -- that doesn't mean people can't disagree but let's avoid just being surly and fractious.

(Please, ignore those who couldn't be bothered to read those first two sentences before posting.)

The Value of Lore

It's OK to love lore. Lore makes an RPG. Without it, there is no reason not to add laser-gun drones to Middle Earth. Yes, a clever write might make something hilarious with that as fan-fiction but most Tolkien fans wouldn't want that as canon. Sometimes lore is a strongly-worded set of guidelines, and sometimes it is a straight jacket. You may bristle at the latter, but see the Tolkien reference in the last sentence. If a Vault dweller showed up in ESO with a pip-boy, people would flip their schlip, and rightly so. There are some things that are just a hard "no!"

On the other hand, if lore, especially in a gaming world, is 100% set in stone, then there is no room for growth and creativity. There have to be some open spaces and some malleable material to work with. The question then becomes, on a scale of one to "wizards don't use toilets they just vanish their crap" of flexibility, where do certain concepts, locations, objects, and individuals lie? This is where conflict arises between fans and content creators as well as fans and other fans.

The irony being that one person will call those who care about the lore of X uptight and closed-minded, whereas that same person will lose their mind over the lore of Y in the same fictional universe. People who enjoy a fictional universe should care about lore, and making fun of them for doing so is short-sighed, inconsiderate, and hypocritical. On the other hand, insisting as a fan that it's your way or the highway is a dead end. In the middle is the obscure pocket plane of reasonable disagreement and respectful engagement, where each side tries to really understand where the other is coming from even though they still end up in different places.

The Season of Dragons, Cats, and Necromancy

In case you somehow missed it: https://alcasthq.com/necromancer-and-dragons-elsweyr/

For 2019 we are getting:

• a war with dragons
• a Necromancy skill line or class
• a trip to Elsweyr

While this will be disappointing to some players, it isn't too surprising. People generally loved Skyrim (the first TES game for many who came to ESO) and have clamored ad nauseam for them to be added. Same for Necromancer as a class or skill line. And Elsweyr has been a top choice (alongside Vvardenfell and western Skryim) for a while now among vocal players as a new zone. Which means it will be very exciting to many other players. Your mileage will be part of a broad range of reactions that may not come close to the mean.

So, some questions:

1. From your personal perspective, how comfortable are you with a dragon war and players becoming necromancers?
2. Which boundaries would make these things more or less acceptable to you (plot limits, plot devices, etc.)
3. Do you trust the Loremaster and other writers to pull this off in a way that you would find satisfactory in terms of sufficiently honoring established lore?
4. Are you looking forward to 2019's content more or less with this news?

Thank you for your time.

RebornV3x

Hopefully we get to fight 1 or 2 dragons as a Trial or Dungeon boss anything else would be a big problem lore wise.

OtarTheMad

1. I am very comfortable with these things. Dragons weren’t a secret really during this time, Tiber Septim makes a deal with wild dragons in a few hundred years so, no stretch. Necromancy? No issue except that no matter what ZOS does some players won’t be happy cause the class didn’t meet their dreams of it
2. More acceptable? Abnur or someone makes some dragons in hiding in Elsweyr defend themselves and become threats to all. Less? Dragons randomly attacking without being provoked.
3. Yes and no. They have done good things in the past but also had some huge misses as well. I have faith it won’t be a train wreck.
4. I am more excited but cautious because I am not sure they will get right or even do all the different Khajiit races.

Aliyavana

I just hope that necromancers have unique dialogue options for joining the mages guild

Claudman

1.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/there-be-dragons
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/atlas-dragons

The introduction of a dragon in ESO doesn't break lore. There were dragons during the time of the 2nd Era, they were just rare to come by (since they went into hiding) and a few hundred years from the time of ESO (2E 582-583) Tiber Steptim makes a pact with the remaining dragon survivors. So dragons don't break lore, people just didn't read. These books were introduced in Skyrim, not ESO and Nafaalilargus who was also a dragon was introduced in TES: Redguard. Redguard predates TES3: Morrowind and takes place close to the end of the Second Era.

Now for Necromancers? Eh...We've got Sorcerers who summon the demonic Daedra from the infinities of Oblivion. I don't know why that is acceptable, but raising the dead is bad.

2. No Dragon Breaks. Dragon Breaks are boring.

3. Lawrence Schick and the writers haven't disappointed me so far. They've made me quite content.

4. I'm pretty excited to see what they do.

Megatto

1. I'm intrigued
2. No boundaries, I'm just looking forward to the Necromancer
3. Absolutely, the Loremaster is a god among men
4. Definitely more

This is going to be a great year in ESO!

Faulgor

1. I'm not opposed to players using necromancy, I'm just opposed to new classes in general, and would like it if there were more repercussions for practicing outlawed abilities (same for Vampires and Werewolves, etc). I'm not happy about facing dragons as enemies again as I'd rather befriend them, but it can work depending on the story.
2. I think the dragon plot has to involve the Akaviri in some fashion in this era. There is no other probable reason for a war with/against dragons when they are mostly in hiding. An excessive number of or resurrected dragons would also be a no-go for me.
3. I trust them in so far as the plot will probably be interesting and within established lore. Less so with the visual depictions, which are often less interesting and fantastical than they should be.
4. In terms of the story I'm probably looking forward to it more than before. For gameplay, less.

RaddlemanNumber7

Necromancers? No worries. I have a couple of ideas for characters that this would suit very well. I'm looking forward to playing them out.

Cats? Great. I have no hang-ups about Kajhiit morphology or the Lunar Lattice. I look forward to finding out more about Khajiit history. "Cherim's Heart of Anequina" has been one of my favourite lore books ever since I started playing this game. It's a place I've always wanted to visit.

Dragons? HELP!

I have a lots of lore-based headcanon, stretching all the way back to Sithis and Anu. Thousands of words in a coherent story to help me explain the whole Vestige experience to myself and enhance my immersion. I have been able to ignore Dragons so far. Now, I guess I'll have to work out where they fit in to the narrative. I played Skyrim lots, but I always ignored the lore in that game because it really offended my sensibilities. So far the only lore I needed to know about dragons was, "4E 201: Todd Howard pulls Alduin out of his back pocket."

I've got some reading to do. I hope there is actually some lore to cover this mess. I have some questions already, and I've barely started to think about it. Where were the Dragons at Convention? What was Shore's relationship with the Dragons? Where were the Dragons when the Elves destroyed Saarthal, and when Ysgramor slaughtered all the Elves?

Above all...

WHY CAN'T THEY JUST STAY NICE AND DEAD?

Kajuratus

tinythinker wrote: »

So, some questions:

1. From your personal perspective, how comfortable are you with a dragon war and players becoming necromancers?
2. Which boundaries would make these things more or less acceptable to you (plot limits, plot devices, etc.)
3. Do you trust the Loremaster and other writers to pull this off in a way that you would find satisfactory in terms of sufficiently honoring established lore?
4. Are you looking forward to 2019's content more or less with this news?

Thank you for your time.

1. I don't have a problem with necromancers being a playable class in the game. I don't see it any more lore breaking than a Sorc having a winged twilight summoned all the time. A dragon war though... dragons in this era, I'm fine with. Its only really tweaking Skyrim's lore about dragons being all but wiped out, and that itself was a retcon of previous dragon lore. I don't like the idea of a dragon war though. Seems too much of a copy/paste of Skyrim's plot.
2. Limit the number of dragons that have resurfaced. Maybe make it a dragon vs dragon conflict. Have dragons be characters in the story, not just as bosses for us to kill mindlessly.
3. I trust that the Loremaster will do his job, and justify any retcons that the designers tell him to justify. We all love Schick, but he has limits on what he can say a flat out "No" to. The Ghostfence is when he can say no, and Seyda Neen is when he can't. The writers tend to be a bit more on the ball nowadays when it comes to keeping to established lore, so I'm not too worried about the story being lore breaking, just that it'll try too hard to be epic, and end up watering down the world in the process.
4. I would say less excited for 2019. I would have preferred Elsweyr to have been released separately with multiple DLC zones. Because with the amount of resources they have for Chapters, they won't be able to properly showcase all six remaining cities in Elsweyr. And how much of Elsweyr will be blocked off by mountainous ranges? Elsweyr may be a small province, but theres still a huge area for the developers to bring to life. Mainland Summerset is smaller than Elsweyr, and we still didn't get to explore the entirety of the island.

Thank you for your questions

Jacen_Veron

1a. I'm down for a small cluster of dragons, like a roving band of dragons in hiding or something like that. My only issue is that dragons haven't been mentioned too often or been a threat to anyone. It'll feel a little wierd if they just kinda show up now. But I'm more comfortable with this than most other things that happen in the game, they were still around in the 2nd era, but not common, they were often secluded or in hiding.

1b. I'm fine with necromancers, it doesn't bother me much. The only issue I see is the Mages Guild. Necromancy is not allowed there, but I guess you could just say your character hides their magic or something like that. Necromancy is often practiced in secret anyway.

2a. In regards to dragons, it would make sense for them to come out of hiding now that the Blades are out of commission with the war, but I'm interested to see if they are inherently hostile or being led by some villain type dragon. I said it before, but I feel it should be a small number of dragons, too many would take away from their impact in Skyrim. The dragons also shouldn't be mindless animals. Also, Dragonborn are the only mortals able to completely kill a dragon. I personally have no idea what happens if you don't absorb a dragon's soul, so I'm interested to see if they do anything with that.

2b. Like I said, I don't have any problems really with necromancers, its iffy with the Mages Guild, but there are easy outs with that. Its good for roleplay I would say, particularly for evil characters.

3. I've been let down by them before, so my hopes here aren't too high. There are good ways to pull this off, but they've bungled up simpler things in this game. We'll see what happens.

4. I always look forward to new content, I'm too deep in to quit now, too heavily invested in my characters and their stories. I can't wait to see how it goes, but I am certainly terrified too. I'm hoping for The best.

gepe87

Necromancers in Elsweyr seems legit. Remember that Khajiit homeland was devastated by Flu, so many zombies to rise.

Enokariel

tinythinker wrote: »

1. From your personal perspective, how comfortable are you with a dragon war and players becoming necromancers?
2. Which boundaries would make these things more or less acceptable to you (plot limits, plot devices, etc.)
3. Do you trust the Loremaster and other writers to pull this off in a way that you would find satisfactory in terms of sufficiently honoring established lore?
4. Are you looking forward to 2019's content more or less with this news?

Thank you for your time.

1) I do not have problem with dragons if the scale is correct, with necromancers ... we do not kow so much ... if there is only a new skill line, then it can be explained, accepted, I would prefer if the necromancy class was left for evil NPCs. My greater concern is with the Elsweyr lore and how (if at all) the different form of khajiit will be portrayed.
2) I see problem with true necromancers in some quest lines, IE Alikr, where is clearly suggested necromancy is against the law and believes of the Redguard people there. But we have to determine what is necromancy and how it will be pictured - in previous games (Morrowind, Oblivin) it was just a part of sumonning magic. Undead are considered special daedric form. In skyrim, you could raise the dead to make zombies. And again it was a varition of sumonning. The main evil of necromancy was usually in creating black soul gems by catching souls of people. But the soul gems in ESO already catch soul of people - so are they all black and are we all necromancers already?
3) I hope for a good story and good explanation why necromacy is now acceptable.
4) Neither more nor less.

Ajaxandriel

1) From your personal perspective, how comfortable are you with a dragon war and players becoming necromancers?

As people told above, Dragons in the 2E are legit. Nafaalilargus!
I can't say how far-fetched such a "dragon war" would be in Chapter 3 since we know its scale (no pun intended ) not yet.

Necromancers in our time are OK too, because Mannimarco has already taught that, because there are plenty of Worm Cultists all around as we saw during the Planemeld, and so on.

Now should they be playable?
Well... werewolves, daedric summoners (some builds of Sorc), Dark Brotherhood cultists and other blood/void magic users (Nightblades), and above all vampires... they are already playable. There is no clue to prevent players from playing Necromancers.

Should they be implemented in a credible and immersion-friendly way? Of course yes.
I hope the skeleton or zombie summoning skills (if there is any) will be only possible in combat, so in cities this would limit the issue (except for the duels).

I believe that new specific dialogues must be added for necro player characters in some cases. For instance the Alik'r Quest Line (DC zone story) will make no sense if not taken into account!


2) Which boundaries would make these things more or less acceptable to you (plot limits, plot devices, etc.)

If the dragon war implies few dragons, let's say less than 10 (like the Sea Sloads of Summerset), then it's all fine.
If we don't witness a Dragon Break it's OK also. Dragon Breaks should be a bug in the recording, a "bug in the matrix", a corruption of History, but always shrouded in mystery.
So I hope the dragon plot will be comparable with the daedric plots of previous chapters.

Regarding the Necromancers, well, I expect them not to be related to the story line of the Chapter. They'd be introduced properly (like, Abnur Tharn teachings, or ex-Worm Cultists teaming up with us), but Elsweyr Flavor doesn't really match for a necromancy storyline.
Just like the Warden didn't match that much in the Vvardenfell story.

Now I'm thinking about the Imga Leech Queen of (Ein) Meirvale that is mentioned in the journal of Razum-dar (collector edition book), so I'm not against some necro flavor in the background of one city.


3) Do you trust the Loremaster and other writers to pull this off in a way that you would find satisfactory in terms of sufficiently honoring established lore?

I like Lawrence's insight in the background writing, so far, it makes Tamriel closer, more "relatable", grounded-credible and well rooted to TES:Arena.

The Vvardenfell and Summerset content fit well in what I understood of Dunmer and Altmer cultures, so I expect to be the same with the Khajiit.


4) Are you looking forward to 2019's content more or less with this news?

Looking forward as much anyway - but yes I'm still in the "positive wait & see" mood.

tinythinker wrote: »

It's OK to love lore. Lore makes an RPG. Without it, there is no reason not to add laser-gun drones to Middle Earth. Yes, a clever write might make something hilarious with that as fan-fiction but most Tolkien fans wouldn't want that as canon.

(---basically what M.K. experimented with the c0da "rewriting" of the elder scrolls, just sayin' X) )

Starlock

We don't know much yet about how this content will be handled in the final delivery, so my perspectives here are both limited and tentative. I always enjoy new content for the possibilities it provides for creative storytelling with characters I develop. At the same time, I do have genre/aesthetic preferences.

In no RPG ever have I played or been interested in playing a necromancer. On the one hand, this makes the datamine suggesting this is the next class a disappointment to me. On the other, I can view it as a creative challenge to undertake and succeed at. Lore considerations - notably that necromancy is generally frowned upon in the Elder Scrolls Universe - adds an extra complication to that. It's likely that my necromancer won't actually be a necromancer. The class skills can likely be worked into some other concept where necromancy doesn't really come into the picture.

As for dragons? I'm a fan of dragons. We'll see how it pans out.

Overall, I'm not concerned about the creative minds behind the new content working in new lore and story. Contradictory accounts of things are common already, and it reflects how accounts of things work in our world too. A well-told story that generally (but not necessarily perfectly, but someone's measure) fits within the established universe is all that I ask for. Main reason I play this game is for the consistent, quality lore/quest/story content. Nothing is likely to surpass Clockwork City as my favorite, but we'll see.

Robo_Hobo

1. From your personal perspective, how comfortable are you with a dragon war and players becoming necromancers?

I have no problem with players becoming Necromancers, even if I'm not too interested in the class idea myself. All of the potential lore complications with the Psijjics and the Mage's guild can be explained through fairly simple RP concepts, even if the game itself might not end up providing them. I don't see Dragons in this time period being inherently lore-breaking necessarily if written right (and it's not just like Skyrim where Dragons are common random encounters). I think they can do something interesting with them, potentially.

However, I am a bit uncomfortable with the Dragons being involved if only because it's Elsweyr, and I fear that it'll take away from the focus of other potentially interesting storylines that could be done there that I'm more interested in exploring, namely, deep-rooted Khajiit culture themes and storylines. For this reason, I'll probably be more interested in the side quests there than the main storyline.


2. Which boundaries would make these things more or less acceptable to you (plot limits, plot devices, etc.)

A limit on how many dragons there are. Them being just up to a few, named dragons, and going into an explanation (via any appropriate means) of how they have survived in hiding from the Dragonguard, and what has caused them to come out of hiding - and why be in Elsweyr, particularly. It'd also be nice if they weren't just one-dimensional enemies, but had some character to them, and actually get to speak to them - and if we're lucky, at least one that isn't just an enemy, and maybe even an ally, if not at least immediately.


3. Do you trust the Loremaster and other writers to pull this off in a way that you would find satisfactory in terms of sufficiently honoring established lore?

I trust Schick, I know he cares a lot about the lore and does as much as he can to make things work. However, I also know that his job is more making whatever the other developers want to do, work, rather than actually deciding the base idea in the first place. If the upper Devs say "we want a lot of dragons", there's not much room to say no - just create an explanation for how that would work.

I'm more concerned about what will happen with the full variety of Khajiit forms, personally. I don't care too much about Dragons, but the Khajiit forms are the most fascinating thing to me in TES lore, and getting to see all of them in a TES game has been my biggest TES wish since I first learned about their lore many years ago. This is the only chance that we'll probably ever get for that to happen, because I have doubts Elsweyr will happen in a main series game, so if it doesn't happen now, it will probably never happen officially. Before, it was never worth the resources to create the different Khajiit forms in Skyrim, Cyrodiil, or the other parts of ESO, but this is their homeland. To me, it won't be Elsweyr without them. It's a lot of costs to make all of the models of course, and I'm very sure that some of the less-lore-knowledegable management were probably questioning the worth of the costs, so basically I'm just hoping that the rest of them who do know how important this is were able to win out the debate with them instead of pressing the retcon butting and nuking the concept entirely.


4. Are you looking forward to 2019's content more or less with this news?

100%. More than 100%. This will be the most important year of ESO for me, period. I'm still just a bit worried, and hoping that the announcement stream will aleviate those worries so that I can focus more on just enjoying the fact that Elsweyr is finally happening.

Ravena

People saying dragons being around isn't lore-friendly probably don't really know any lore besides what little they've seen in Skyrim. And yes, Redguard IS and will always be canon to TES. Old Nana was alive and well there...for a time.

A war with dragons that has been lost to history makes sense since I believe the big endgame to ESO lore is that our hero and all their deeds will be wiped out of existence due to some sort of dragon-break/terribly catastrophic event/sacrifice. They've been mentioning the breaks more and more as the chapters progress.

A Necromancer hero will be preeetty weird, though.

danielpang32

To who feel unhappy about Dragon and necromancy.

This is how loremaster solve the problem of Cyrodiil as a jungle.

"discrepancy to errors made during the transcription of historical texts"

With this holy sentence, even Khajiit can have the same leg bone structure as human.

Still unhappy about dragon?

Here is the time machines for you.

https://youtu.be/-ZpNe5iredw?t=777

Bruccius

danielpang32 wrote: »

To who feel unhappy about Dragon and necromancy.

This is how loremaster solve the problem of Cyrodiil as a jungle.

"discrepancy to errors made during the transcription of historical texts"

With this holy sentence, even Khajiit can have the same leg bone structure as human.

Still unhappy about dragon?

Here is the time machines for you.

https://youtu.be/-ZpNe5iredw?t=777

There is another theory for Cyrodiil not being a jungle. Lmao.

kathandira

tinythinker wrote: »

snip

I'm totally cool Dragons in this Era as they exist, it actually more of a wonder why we haven't seen a couple more already. And Necromancers, if written well, can be heroes.

One thing that I don't think many are considering. The Season of Dragons doesn't mean that WE are at war with Dragons. For all we know, we could be on the same side as the Dragons.

Ermiq

For me personally, Necromancer class in ESO is almost the same as Pandarens in WoW. Maybe even worse and I'll explain why.
Blizz made Pandas a part of lore, and nowadays nobody can prove nor disapprove them lore-wise. They were introduced into the game along with the entire new story, zone and lore.
And while playable Necromancers are actually lore-friendly in terms of overall TES lore, in ESO particularly they just couldn't exist. You know, like 90% of the ESO stories/quests are based on fighting against Wormcult and other necromancers, and we know that many Tamriel people (especially Redguards, non-Telvanni Dunmers, Mages Guild and Psijics') most likely wouldn't make a deal with necromancers. If it were a good singleplayer game, there would be unique dialogues, reactions, entire quest lines would be changed or even unavailable if you play as a Necromancer. But I know ZOS, I know how exactly they do implement new content into the game. Players using necromancy just going to be completely ignored by NPCs, Vanus Galerion will let them to become a Mages Guild members, and so on.
I would deal with Necromancer class in ESO if it were implemented correctly, with some new unique mechanics, so they could become a rightfull part of the game's world, you know. But they won't, I'm sure. As I see it, the only way to accept a Necromancer player in ESO for me is just to say "yeah, whatever, he's not a necro, I didn't see that dead body he just had raised up from that grave".

Speaking about dragons... It's ok if it will be only a couple of them, they might be hiding somewhere in the Nirn during the 2nd era, there's no inconsistencies lore-wise.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

danielpang32 wrote: »

To who feel unhappy about Dragon and necromancy.

This is how loremaster solve the problem of Cyrodiil as a jungle.

"discrepancy to errors made during the transcription of historical texts"

With this holy sentence, even Khajiit can have the same leg bone structure as human.

Still unhappy about dragon?

Here is the time machines for you.

https://youtu.be/-ZpNe5iredw?t=777

They are bringing Paul Sage back??????
Lmao

CyberSkooma

Eremith wrote: »

For me personally, Necromancer class in ESO is almost the same as Pandarens in WoW. Maybe even worse and I'll explain why.
Blizz made Pandas a part of lore, and nowadays nobody can prove nor disapprove them lore-wise. They were introduced into the game along with the entire new story, zone and lore.
And while playable Necromancers are actually lore-friendly in terms of overall TES lore, in ESO particularly they just couldn't exist. You know, like 90% of the ESO stories/quests are based on fighting against Wormcult and other necromancers, and we know that many Tamriel people (especially Redguards, non-Telvanni Dunmers, Mages Guild and Psijics') most likely wouldn't make a deal with necromancers. If it were a good singleplayer game, there would be unique dialogues, reactions, entire quest lines would be changed or even unavailable if you play as a Necromancer. But I know ZOS, I know how exactly they do implement new content into the game. Players using necromancy just going to be completely ignored by NPCs, Vanus Galerion will let them to become a Mages Guild members, and so on.
I would deal with Necromancer class in ESO if it were implemented correctly, with some new unique mechanics, so they could become a rightfull part of the game's world, you know. But they won't, I'm sure. As I see it, the only way to accept a Necromancer player in ESO for me is just to say "yeah, whatever, he's not a necro, I didn't see that dead body he just had raised up from that grave".

Speaking about dragons... It's ok if it will be only a couple of them, they might be hiding somewhere in the Nirn during the 2nd era, there's no inconsistencies lore-wise.

What do you mean Pandarens cant be proven? They were in Warcraft III, and bnet classic still has a page up on them.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/pandaren/

Ermiq

CyberSkooma wrote: »

Eremith wrote: »

For me personally, Necromancer class in ESO is almost the same as Pandarens in WoW. Maybe even worse and I'll explain why.
Blizz made Pandas a part of lore, and nowadays nobody can prove nor disapprove them lore-wise. They were introduced into the game along with the entire new story, zone and lore.
And while playable Necromancers are actually lore-friendly in terms of overall TES lore, in ESO particularly they just couldn't exist. You know, like 90% of the ESO stories/quests are based on fighting against Wormcult and other necromancers, and we know that many Tamriel people (especially Redguards, non-Telvanni Dunmers, Mages Guild and Psijics') most likely wouldn't make a deal with necromancers. If it were a good singleplayer game, there would be unique dialogues, reactions, entire quest lines would be changed or even unavailable if you play as a Necromancer. But I know ZOS, I know how exactly they do implement new content into the game. Players using necromancy just going to be completely ignored by NPCs, Vanus Galerion will let them to become a Mages Guild members, and so on.
I would deal with Necromancer class in ESO if it were implemented correctly, with some new unique mechanics, so they could become a rightfull part of the game's world, you know. But they won't, I'm sure. As I see it, the only way to accept a Necromancer player in ESO for me is just to say "yeah, whatever, he's not a necro, I didn't see that dead body he just had raised up from that grave".

Speaking about dragons... It's ok if it will be only a couple of them, they might be hiding somewhere in the Nirn during the 2nd era, there's no inconsistencies lore-wise.

What do you mean Pandarens cant be proven? They were in Warcraft III, and bnet classic still has a page up on them.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/pandaren/

They have added this page after Pandaria release. (It's one of the theories about Pandarens).

You know, there's no living human who have witnessed Pandarens in WCIII. It was too long ago. All we have now is theories.

eso_nya

tinythinker wrote: »

1. From your personal perspective, how comfortable are you with a dragon war and players becoming necromancers?
2. Which boundaries would make these things more or less acceptable to you (plot limits, plot devices, etc.)
3. Do you trust the Loremaster and other writers to pull this off in a way that you would find satisfactory in terms of sufficiently honoring established lore?
4. Are you looking forward to 2019's content more or less with this news?

1. Im comfortable with dragons. they r cool. i dont remember it very well, i think there was a part in skyrim where i was send back in time to a dragonwar at the beginning of time or so. im not good with lore or anything, for me its enough that i know there r dragons in the es universe, not picky on wrong timeline or sth.
im not comfortable with necro becoming playable class. seemingly everyone in tamriel hates necromancy. necromancers r trashmobs. its on a level of hagraven, goblin or skeever becoming a playable race. i'd expect the villager to thro rocks and chase me with torches and pitchforks.
what bothers me more is, that imo its a very "cheap" choice for a new class. like everyone who plays the game for a few month can come up with a concept for it. a sorc skill retex could do the job aswell. replace scamp with a skelly and LL with that black circle w/ the green hands in it npcs use, give frag a white paintjob and call it bone fragments. i would have prefered to get a class that sounds unique and introduces new things.

2. not gonna happen, but an alternate storyline. where u start e.g. as the guy luring the vestige into the trap, zonestories where u help thallik, angof, estre, filgor and so on.

3. Yes and no. The loremaster does a good job. but the game completely ignores the players class as is. i dont expect them do anything there. u can roll a necro and play thru the game as is. the biggest impact will prolly be that guy making a "missable skillpoint in new tutorial" - post.

4. indifferent. exploring a new zone is always cool, was looking forward to that anyways. i did not expect a new class and didnt plan on any more chars, so its cool they decided to make a class i prolly wont play. it will be a hit to immersion for me, but on the same (low) level as the flame attronach horse following the npc trader in southern summerset.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Eremith wrote: »

For me personally, Necromancer class in ESO is almost the same as Pandarens in WoW. Maybe even worse and I'll explain why.
Blizz made Pandas a part of lore, and nowadays nobody can prove nor disapprove them lore-wise. They were introduced into the game along with the entire new story, zone and lore.
And while playable Necromancers are actually lore-friendly in terms of overall TES lore, in ESO particularly they just couldn't exist. You know, like 90% of the ESO stories/quests are based on fighting against Wormcult and other necromancers, and we know that many Tamriel people (especially Redguards, non-Telvanni Dunmers, Mages Guild and Psijics') most likely wouldn't make a deal with necromancers. If it were a good singleplayer game, there would be unique dialogues, reactions, entire quest lines would be changed or even unavailable if you play as a Necromancer. But I know ZOS, I know how exactly they do implement new content into the game. Players using necromancy just going to be completely ignored by NPCs, Vanus Galerion will let them to become a Mages Guild members, and so on.
I would deal with Necromancer class in ESO if it were implemented correctly, with some new unique mechanics, so they could become a rightfull part of the game's world, you know. But they won't, I'm sure. As I see it, the only way to accept a Necromancer player in ESO for me is just to say "yeah, whatever, he's not a necro, I didn't see that dead body he just had raised up from that grave".

Speaking about dragons... It's ok if it will be only a couple of them, they might be hiding somewhere in the Nirn during the 2nd era, there's no inconsistencies lore-wise.

I mean, some Necromancers in TES lore aren’t part of the worm cult, and some have their own motives- some of the Necromancers in Skyrim for example. didn’t one want to resurrect his dead wife or something? I think I’m wrong, but there was another one that just wanted to experiment on others

tinythinker

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Eremith wrote: »

For me personally, Necromancer class in ESO is almost the same as Pandarens in WoW. Maybe even worse and I'll explain why.
Blizz made Pandas a part of lore, and nowadays nobody can prove nor disapprove them lore-wise. They were introduced into the game along with the entire new story, zone and lore.
And while playable Necromancers are actually lore-friendly in terms of overall TES lore, in ESO particularly they just couldn't exist. You know, like 90% of the ESO stories/quests are based on fighting against Wormcult and other necromancers, and we know that many Tamriel people (especially Redguards, non-Telvanni Dunmers, Mages Guild and Psijics') most likely wouldn't make a deal with necromancers. If it were a good singleplayer game, there would be unique dialogues, reactions, entire quest lines would be changed or even unavailable if you play as a Necromancer. But I know ZOS, I know how exactly they do implement new content into the game. Players using necromancy just going to be completely ignored by NPCs, Vanus Galerion will let them to become a Mages Guild members, and so on.
I would deal with Necromancer class in ESO if it were implemented correctly, with some new unique mechanics, so they could become a rightfull part of the game's world, you know. But they won't, I'm sure. As I see it, the only way to accept a Necromancer player in ESO for me is just to say "yeah, whatever, he's not a necro, I didn't see that dead body he just had raised up from that grave".

Speaking about dragons... It's ok if it will be only a couple of them, they might be hiding somewhere in the Nirn during the 2nd era, there's no inconsistencies lore-wise.

I mean, some Necromancers in TES lore aren’t part of the worm cult, and some have their own motives- some of the Necromancers in Skyrim for example. didn’t one want to resurrect his dead wife or something? I think I’m wrong, but there was another one that just wanted to experiment on others

Another one rezzed his dog

Vuldovahkriid

Eremith wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

Eremith wrote: »

For me personally, Necromancer class in ESO is almost the same as Pandarens in WoW. Maybe even worse and I'll explain why.
Blizz made Pandas a part of lore, and nowadays nobody can prove nor disapprove them lore-wise. They were introduced into the game along with the entire new story, zone and lore.
And while playable Necromancers are actually lore-friendly in terms of overall TES lore, in ESO particularly they just couldn't exist. You know, like 90% of the ESO stories/quests are based on fighting against Wormcult and other necromancers, and we know that many Tamriel people (especially Redguards, non-Telvanni Dunmers, Mages Guild and Psijics') most likely wouldn't make a deal with necromancers. If it were a good singleplayer game, there would be unique dialogues, reactions, entire quest lines would be changed or even unavailable if you play as a Necromancer. But I know ZOS, I know how exactly they do implement new content into the game. Players using necromancy just going to be completely ignored by NPCs, Vanus Galerion will let them to become a Mages Guild members, and so on.
I would deal with Necromancer class in ESO if it were implemented correctly, with some new unique mechanics, so they could become a rightfull part of the game's world, you know. But they won't, I'm sure. As I see it, the only way to accept a Necromancer player in ESO for me is just to say "yeah, whatever, he's not a necro, I didn't see that dead body he just had raised up from that grave".

Speaking about dragons... It's ok if it will be only a couple of them, they might be hiding somewhere in the Nirn during the 2nd era, there's no inconsistencies lore-wise.

What do you mean Pandarens cant be proven? They were in Warcraft III, and bnet classic still has a page up on them.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/pandaren/

They have added this page after Pandaria release. (It's one of the theories about Pandarens).

You know, there's no living human who have witnessed Pandarens in WCIII. It was too long ago. All we have now is theories.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/History_of_pandaren_in_Warcraft They were in Frozen Throne

Enodoc

1a. The lore suggests that most dragons are dead or in hiding by this time period. A few are likely to still be around, and I was always expecting to see a few in the future, but there being enough of them willing to break out of hiding to kick off a whole war is more than I expected. Although, the "Daedric War" that the last season revolved around ended up only being about three Princes and hardly any warfare, so maybe the dragon war won't be very big either.

1b. I have no problems at all with players becoming Necromancers, but I never liked classes anyway. Would prefer the whole thing to be skill-line-based.

2. No plot devices needed if the situation is explained properly. Few enough dragons for there to be a good reason this "war" was not well-known in the future would be a bonus. No full-on Dragon Breaks please.

3. Most of the time

Ermiq

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Eremith wrote: »

For me personally, Necromancer class in ESO is almost the same as Pandarens in WoW. Maybe even worse and I'll explain why.
Blizz made Pandas a part of lore, and nowadays nobody can prove nor disapprove them lore-wise. They were introduced into the game along with the entire new story, zone and lore.
And while playable Necromancers are actually lore-friendly in terms of overall TES lore, in ESO particularly they just couldn't exist. You know, like 90% of the ESO stories/quests are based on fighting against Wormcult and other necromancers, and we know that many Tamriel people (especially Redguards, non-Telvanni Dunmers, Mages Guild and Psijics') most likely wouldn't make a deal with necromancers. If it were a good singleplayer game, there would be unique dialogues, reactions, entire quest lines would be changed or even unavailable if you play as a Necromancer. But I know ZOS, I know how exactly they do implement new content into the game. Players using necromancy just going to be completely ignored by NPCs, Vanus Galerion will let them to become a Mages Guild members, and so on.
I would deal with Necromancer class in ESO if it were implemented correctly, with some new unique mechanics, so they could become a rightfull part of the game's world, you know. But they won't, I'm sure. As I see it, the only way to accept a Necromancer player in ESO for me is just to say "yeah, whatever, he's not a necro, I didn't see that dead body he just had raised up from that grave".

Speaking about dragons... It's ok if it will be only a couple of them, they might be hiding somewhere in the Nirn during the 2nd era, there's no inconsistencies lore-wise.

I mean, some Necromancers in TES lore aren’t part of the worm cult, and some have their own motives- some of the Necromancers in Skyrim for example. didn’t one want to resurrect his dead wife or something? I think I’m wrong, but there was another one that just wanted to experiment on others

Wormcult or not Wormcult, it doesn't matter at all. Necromancy is kind of forbidden magic in the most part of Tamriel. The most part of people of Tamriel hate necromancy, are afraid of necromancers or just trying to avoid any contact with them. In ESO, the game that has no NPC relations/reactions system and NPCs just going to ignore anything whether it be a guy killing people with Blade Of Woe or necromancy usage, in this kind of game necromancer-player just makes no sense.

Bruccius

@Eremith
Necromancy is actually legal in most of Tamriel, just shunned. Some folk take this shunning too far and go to violence, resulting in fewer necromancers. The ones that do exist probably do so illegally, as necromancy has certain rules one has to follow.

Only the Dunmer of Morrowind made it illegal. Oh, and the Mages Guild; but they only did so following the rise of Arch-Mage Hannibal Traven.

Watchdog

Some my not have finished the main quest yet, hence the spoiler tags. The main quest doesn't make much sense to me for a necromancer character.

I am pretty certain Meridia won't co-operate with a necromancer.