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Next chapter...spellcrafting?

  • rexagamemnon
    rexagamemnon
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    Gear crafting sounds like a good idea to
  • Cireous
    Cireous
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    I wonder what dominoid and the UESP guys think about the prospects for spellcrafting in 2019? I know you guys must know something 🙄...😌 The datamines seem eerily dry for this time of year 🤔
  • josiahva
    josiahva
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    At this point it would upend the entirety of the game.

    What would armor sets do? You'd have to make them work around damage types or spell type components. All your time farming them would be wasted, potentially.

    What would skills points do? if they just buy you parts of a skill then you'd need a significantly larger pool. This would do more to potentially widen the performance between vets and non-vets (or at a minimum people that only play one character like me and those with tons of alts).

    CP system? Probably have to scrap that or engage in another balance nightmare.

    Classes? Why, you could effectively make every class the same by recombinating the skills.

    The list could go on but it would need an entire alteration of the entire game. Given the fact it took enough changes until summerset before they gave us a skill line that actually affected combat skills, I really doubt they would do it.


    This isn't to say I wouldn't love to do this, I just think we are waaaaaay to far in the production game to really have this become a reality.

    You think that the sets you farm are relevant forever as it is? Of course not. Don't even act as if farming a set is a big deal anymore...because its NOTHING compared to what it used to be now that you can change traits. If I want a given set, I can often get the whole thing in a single run now..I just transmute traits as needed. Besides, they can(and do) retroactively change what sets do all the time

    Why do people think a spellcrafting system would be any more difficult to balance than anything else? The more powerful the effect, the higher the rss cost...automatic balance based around similar existing skills and existing costs. Spellcrafting would really be more about flavor than anything else. As an example....instead of say burning embers, you might have freezing talons instead changing from fire damage to ice damage and from a self heal to an enemy speed reduction while having roughly the same cost...voila...balance. What you arent going to have is a meteor that costs 1000 magicka. You will have spells that have a cost equivalent to other spells that are as powerful....it would not be difficult to write an algorithm to determine cost based on damage and/or effect scaling from existing abilities...balance would not be difficult...or rather, no more difficult than existing skills.
  • lucky_Sage
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    Honestly I use to want spellcrafting not even thinking about the balance nightmare id be more worried about the grind nightmare is fear it would be worse the psijic,jewelry crafting and mages guild put together because that's where zos is going with all new things in the game
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  • mairwen85
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    Spell crafting would, if realized, be another age long grind, but maybe for sigils, scrolls, runes etc... Each would unlock an effect, you'd have 3 slots to assign effects from the various branches (iirc from the now ancient demo vid) - - anyone with the slightest mathematical mind would work out the best, most effective, combination, that becomes meta, spellcrafting is thus void. There is no way to balance it for variety, there will always be a bis craftable, never a complimentary or cosmetic, conceptual skill; for that the result would have to have the same cost and output regardless of the craftable components, which renders the whole thing redundant.

    It would be cool, but unfortunately doesn't belong in eso, its purely a single player enhancement feature, a la oblivion, skyrim et al.
    Edited by mairwen85 on December 27, 2018 5:46PM
  • josiahva
    josiahva
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    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Spell crafting would, if realized, be another age long grind, but maybe for sigils, scrolls, runes etc... Each would unlock an effect, you'd have 3 slots to assign effects from the various branches (iirc from the now ancient demo vid) - - anyone with the slightest mathematical mind would work out the best, most effective, combination, that becomes meta, spellcrafting is thus void. There is no way to balance it for variety, there will always be a bis craftable, never a complimentary or cosmetic, conceptual skill; for that the result would have to have the same cost and output regardless of the craftable components, which renders the whole thing redundant.

    It would be cool, but unfortunately doesn't belong in eso, its purely a single player enhancement feature, a la oblivion, skyrim et al.

    So what if something becomes Meta? You know what happens to overperforming Meta EVERY SINGLE TIME? It gets nerfed...this would be no different. While I would like to see spellcrafting, I would be just as happy to see the skills of other classes be unlocked for opposing classes, albeit at a steep experience and casting cost(say costing 10x the exp to level a skill from another class with say an added 20% resource cost, this would ensure that if you are using an out-of-class skill its purely for utility use....say giving DKs maneuverability through the use of streak. DKs wouldn't be able to spam the skill, but would have access to a better emergency escape skill than mist form)

    P.S. Call it skillcrafting, call out out-of-class skills, call it new skill lines, I dont care, all I care to see is the toolbox of existing classes expanded to more options, what I do NOT want to see are new classes. Add more morphs to existing skill lines, just give us more options and allow us to build strange niche characters
    Edited by josiahva on December 27, 2018 7:36PM
  • Jhalin
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    On the one hand, balance nightmare. On the other, it would be incredibly interesting if done right.
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  • JJBoomer
    JJBoomer
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    i hope it never comes tbh
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    @josiahva you can already create strange, niche builds... Viability is always dubious though :wink:

    Read my post again, you'll see our views don't differ that much, just in regards to viability and balance.

    Skill expansion is better served with a third (morphable) tier, not craftable abilities imo.
    Edited by mairwen85 on December 27, 2018 9:53PM
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Why does everyone always assume spellcrafting would be implemented in the worst way possible. It’s certainly achievable to make it balanced.

    I’ll use just one example. Say I wanted my magsorc to have a Shock damage, single target, instant spammable damage skill. Nothing like this exists in game. If we had unlimited freedom it could be OP, but a balanced system would allow it to hit for slightly less base damage than elemental weapon + 1/5 of a spell orb charge. If you are wearing gear like Julianos then Ele weapon would hit slightly harder. If you put on the Netch set or used the sorcerer’s Shock damage passive then the crafted skill would hit slightly harder. Ele weapon would give better passives from the Psijic line, but the crafted skill would be better for status effects (since magic damage has no status effect). The crafted skill would have to hit harder than force pulse for a typical build (since it has no splash damage) and harder than crushing shock (since no interrupt). Maybe if you are under the spell pen cap, the destro passives would make force pulse pull ahead of the crafted spell. Comparing to other classes, this ranged spammable would need to be weaker than DK whip or NB concealed weapon since both are melee. It should hit harder than Warden’s screaming cliff racer up close, but racer should win when at full range with its bonus damage. It should also hit harder than NB’s swallow soul since that skill has great healing and siphoning passives.

    Also for crafted skills, they should do slightly more damage for each different damage type involved. This was how dpellcrafting in Oblivion worked, and would encourage multi-element builds (instead of pure builds focused around Automaton or Sun gear sets). I would also encourage a larger bonus if mixing physical and spell types (like poison + fire) since CPs will not be optimized for this. And damage types without status effects (magic and physical) should be slightly stronger than others.

    Overall I think all the boundaries to define crafted skill limits are already in place, someone just needs to take the time to list them.
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    I remember spellcrafting in Morrowind and Oblivion. Incredibly overpowered, and incredibly boring. Given the balancing issues in ESO....

    Please, no.
  • notimetocare
    notimetocare
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    I'd like to see that in an MMO some time around never. There is no way to make something like that both balanced and interesting
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    I'd like to see that in an MMO some time around never. There is no way to make something like that both balanced and interesting

    Yeah. In a single player game it was.... overpowered and boring. I can't even wrap my mind around how awful it would be in this MMO.
  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    I hope it comes before I quit lol .
  • wenchmore420b14_ESO
    wenchmore420b14_ESO
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    Just to remind everyone that there is a "Spell-Crafting" system already made.
    No wondering what they will do, and you KNOW Zo$ isn't going to invest $$$ for developing a new one.
    (Just like Murkmire has actually been around since 2014).
    IMO, I think it will be easy to balance. BUT, the way ZoS has made everything a gods awful grind, and focus on Crown Store, it scares me a little how ZoS will implement it IF we get it.
    Here is a reminder and summary of the Spellcrafting system that they have already from 2014....
    Huzzah!

    (Also, just a note, anyone else miss Nick Konkle? :) )
    Edited by wenchmore420b14_ESO on December 28, 2018 4:16AM
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  • MattT1988
    MattT1988
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    This is starting to sound like something a lot of people want, until they actually get it and they’ll regret it. Just getting that hunch.
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    MattT1988 wrote: »
    This is starting to sound like something a lot of people want, until they actually get it and they’ll regret it. Just getting that hunch.

    Heh. Yep. We'll see, won't we?
  • SidewalkChalk5
    SidewalkChalk5
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    As far as I can tell, this is the #1 most desired system for fans.

    And the naysayers are wrong: it's totally doable. Complicated, but doable. With Rob Garrett onboard to oversee it and Gilliam for testing I seriously think they could pull it off.

    I'd love to see them add Conjuration, Illusion, and Alteration staves and replace the Destro/Resto skill lines with crafting. Then let the skills be castable on any bar, but only get passives on the appropriate staff bar. (So stam builds can benefit from spellcrafting, too.) A guy can dream.
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  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    I'd like to see that in an MMO some time around never. There is no way to make something like that both balanced and interesting

    Yeah. In a single player game it was.... overpowered and boring. I can't even wrap my mind around how awful it would be in this MMO.

    It would be like ... adding new skill lines. Except that you craft the spells like you would an item instead of knowing them by default and just unlocking them with exp. That's it.
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  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    The stamina crowd would enrage if Magicka gets new abilities. So this is probably never going to happen.
    Edited by Dracane on December 28, 2018 5:31AM
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  • wenchmore420b14_ESO
    wenchmore420b14_ESO
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    But during the focus part of the crafting you can adjust the cost and adjust what abilities it is tied to, like morphs have stam or magicka choices.
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  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    But during the focus part of the crafting you can adjust the cost and adjust what abilities it is tied to, like morphs have stam or magicka choices.

    That would likely be the case. But spells costing stamina would make little sense. We need to stay a bit realistic.
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  • Lord_Dexter
    Lord_Dexter
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    Those who usually come to forum and posting salt,

    "Spell Crafting will be Broken etc."

    You should see Ashes of Creation game play, how much versatile combat it offers.

    Either ESO can grow or may lose Player numbers in near future!
    Edited by Lord_Dexter on December 28, 2018 1:40PM
  • rexagamemnon
    rexagamemnon
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    Dracane wrote: »
    The stamina crowd would enrage if Magicka gets new abilities. So this is probably never going to happen.
    But the stamina crowd already has so many abilities.
  • TheShadowScout
    TheShadowScout
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    I’ll use just one example. Say I wanted my magsorc to have a Shock damage, single target, instant spammable damage skill...
    ...and for some reason you do not like Mages Fury or Force Shock with a lightning staff??? :p ;) :trollface:
    The crafted skill would have to hit harder than force pulse for a typical build (since it has no splash damage) and harder than crushing shock (since no interrupt).
    ...and this is where your idea falls apart. When you want something to be "better" then the standard... so everyone "has" to use the crafted skills to be competetive.
    Also, remember, those two are -morphed- versions of the basic Force Shock. Why should your crafted skill be better then an advanced version of a basic skill? If anything, the crafted skills would have to trade off effectiveness for the increased flexibility of custom-building your skills as you like...

    And then there are other consioderations, like abilities that are balanced for a class... like some classes have an edge in one area, but balance that by shortcomings in another area... if everyone could have everything per spellcrafting... well, I said it before:
    Personally I always thought Spellcrafting sounded nice, but had the potential for -disaster- for an MMO, with everyone ending up running the exact same "super-effective" combination of selfmade spells...
    ...and that is still the main trouble to be avoided.
    Just to remind everyone that there is a "Spell-Crafting" system already made...
    -snip-
    Made? Hah!
    You know how much development work is in between a preview like that and an actual complete and working system?
    Still, interesting info! :)
    It does sound to me like they recycled part of this idea for the Psijic skill line (the "search for otherwise invisible stuff to interact with" concept...)

    Thinking more about it, I see two ideas I really would like to grow from the ashes of "Spellcrafting"... one, as mentioned:
    "Scrollcrafting", where you can craft consumable spellscrolls from your active abilities to trade with other classes to use as items?
    ...and I mean exactly that, basically putting your basic class skills on a scroll for other classes which don't have them to use in form of a consumable. Possibly options for guild skills too, so a newbie who doesn't have their mages guild maxed yet would still use a meteor scroll and such.
    This could come in various quality levels, that bring various percentages of the "max power" of such a spell... like, for example...make it in green quality, have the maximum effect be set at a level 20 NPC, make it in purple, have the maximum effect set at level 50 with no CP boosts, make it in gold, level 50 plus 10% allowance for CP boostings... something like that... and then have the materials to make such be rare enough to have people farmalot for it... could be similar to how Jewelry crafting shared material nodes with blacksmithing, this could come from the same source as leather... sometimes you get leather suitable for clothes, other times parchment stock suitable for scrolls... (oh, and don't I wish I could have some of my eeeevvvvil! characters take that from humanoid opponents? Skin those bandits for scrollcrafting materials! But maybe I am watching too much "Overlord" anime...)

    There could even be "scroll only" magical effects you could find -exactly- like in the teaser video posted, as forgotten runes in some dwelve (which would be a bit "Skyrim", remember how you find all those dragon shouts?) or maybe learned from various NPC mages... doubly so if those were not combat skills, but support skills. Who here has wished they might have a "Alohomora" spell to bypass that pesky (to them) lockpicking? After all, not everyone masters that minigame, right? Or a "teleport to outlaw refugee NOW" scroll, to evade that guard who spotted you grabbing an imperial motiv from the treasure chest in the bank and is about to stop you and confiscate your loot for those who are not professional thieves that can try clemency? And of course, there are a great many NPC abilities they could let us have this way...

    ...and the other thing I would love to see... is an option to modify existing class abilities in visual effects and maaaayybe with some small alterations, like damage type shifts...
    There could be "aspects" that can be collected in various ways (Achievement rewards? Aspect stone bossfight drops? Crown store?) and fitted to each ability... like for example...
    ...keep the effect for your wardens "Dive", but change the summoned animal to "dive" from a cliff racer to, say, a hawk with the "nature" aspect! Or a wasp with the "poison" aspect! Or a vampire bat with the "blood" aspect! Or a ice wraith with the "frost" aspect. Or a fire imp with the "flame" aspect. Or whatever!
    ...keep the general effect of your sorcerors "Mages Fury" but change the visuals from a normal white-blue lighting bolt to a purple-black daedric-cursed-looking lightning strike with the "daedric" aspect. Or a golden "zeus" looking lightning bolt with the "aedric" aspect. Or a "green electricity" lightning as the elf hero uses in the trailer movies with the "nature" aspect. Or a ruby lighting with the "blood" aspect.
    ...keep the general effect of your dragonknights "Dark Talons", but change the visual effects from the claws to a fist made of mud grabbing the target with the "earth" aspect. Or vine tentacles wrapping around them with the "nature" aspect. Or spectral minions grabbing on with the "spirit" aspect. Or whatever.

    It would be... like an outfit system for our abilities! ;)
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  • Lord_Dexter
    Lord_Dexter
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    Dracane wrote: »
    But during the focus part of the crafting you can adjust the cost and adjust what abilities it is tied to, like morphs have stam or magicka choices.

    That would likely be the case. But spells costing stamina would make little sense. We need to stay a bit realistic.

    If spell crafting comes out, it will definitely have stamina spells not limited to magicka
  • josiahva
    josiahva
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    Dracane wrote: »
    The stamina crowd would enrage if Magicka gets new abilities. So this is probably never going to happen.

    Spells are NOT limited to magicka. Every ability, based on stamina or magicka, is a spell. Whats the difference between rally and rapid regen? not much(aside from the fact one is self target only and draws from stamina rather than magicka)
  • josiahva
    josiahva
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    mairwen85 wrote: »
    @josiahva you can already create strange, niche builds... Viability is always dubious though :wink:

    Read my post again, you'll see our views don't differ that much, just in regards to viability and balance.

    Skill expansion is better served with a third (morphable) tier, not craftable abilities imo.

    I suppose it depends on what you mean by viability...considering you can complete trials in white garbage gear if you are good enough, but really, ZOS does their best to pigeonhole people into certain builds...which is why DKs are a "tank class", the amount of strange niche builds is pretty limited as it stands currently, I just want to see other options open up, I am well aware that the vast majority of players in this game are going to be sheep and follow the Meta regardless, this is how it is in all games. I honestly dont care how we get more skills as long as we do, maybe they could do gear-based skills...equip 5 pieces of such and such a set and gain this particular skill, or maybe an entire skill line of some type, or mundus-stone based skill lines, or faction based skill lines, or skill lines based on a certain number of hours devoted to certain activities(get fishing skills if you spend 100 hours fishing, or crafting, etc) Get fire resist passives if you have died to fire 1000 times. Weapon based skill lines that only apply if you have a certain weapon type equipped, there are any number of ways they could do it...so to me "skillcrafting" just means more skills and more skills means more variety in builds for people who DONT play the Meta
  • wenchmore420b14_ESO
    wenchmore420b14_ESO
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    Also, Spellcrafting would re-introduce the "Schools of Magika" to ESO, like we had in previous TES titles and give the game a more Elder Scrolls feel, maybe????
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  • Ertosi
    Ertosi
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    Also, Spellcrafting would re-introduce the "Schools of Magika" to ESO, like we had in previous TES titles and give the game a more Elder Scrolls feel, maybe????

    Their old QuakeCon teaser for ESO's Spellcrafting system, before it was shelved, directly showed it including all of the classic Elder Scrolls schools of magic. For example, the first time you learn a variant of the Muffle spell it unlocks the Illusion skill line for your character, or learning a variant of Oakflesh would unlock the Alteration skill line.

    I feel this explains why ZOS would never add a Necromancer class, as Necromancy is just a subschool of Conjuration. If they ever do add Spellcrafting to ESO, having a necromancer class would be as redundant as having an Illusionist or other school specialist added as a separate class.
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