[Class Reps] Update & Meeting Notes - Dec 7

TheYKcid

It's not just the BRP weapons that aren't useful. A LOT of old arena weapons (vMA, vDSA, vAS) don't see any use at all.

This is partly because of bad effects on some of them, but to a LARGE extent it's due to the lack of 1pc stat bonuses on them.

I've been raising this issue since the Summerset PTS in Q2. All items that occupy 2 slots now give 2 set bonuses. Whether a monster set, or a 2H weapon from a regular 5pc set.

All EXCEPT the old arena weps, which take two slots but only give a single bonus. This alone precludes them from usage on the frontbar of a majority of builds, simply due to the lack of raw stats.

They need to be given a standard 1pc stat bonus, just like the vBRP ones. Veteran arena content should not be awarding junk.

kaithuzar

@ClassReps

Serious question,

How many of you are currently playing magicka classes other than magdk?

Think hard about this before promoting nerfs/buffs.

Qbiken

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Searches for "taunt" in the notes... nothing found.

Seriously, why class reps simply ignored this in werewolf feedback ? Limiting WW to only pvp and stamina DPS in pve only lowers the WW play style & build diversity. There are numerous great ideas on how to implement taunt and enable WW as tank role already at Werewolf feedback thread... I thought class resp were supposed to listen to all feedback...

I don't want to say that but some class resp might be biased towards DPS... but well.. it might be the case...

Nice meme...

Iluvrien

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

Any chance to get a crafting rep?

Aliyavana wrote: »

Please give us a housing rep

We can look at something this for future programs, but the goal of the Class Rep Program specifically is to provide feedback on classes and abilities.

The fact that this is exclusively about classes and abilities concerns me.

Combat is not the only facet of play in ESO. If other facets exist, then there may be mileage in gathering feedback with regards to them. This isn't something that is referred to as being in the pipeline, or something that ZOS Is actively pursuing... but something that ZOS has yet to look into.

As has recently been pointed out, the Class Rep Program has been running for over half a year. Quite simply, why haven't the other aspects of play been looked at during this time?

frostz417

So, the class rep program has been out half a year... during that time, arguably the WORST balance/performance patch has hit us(murkmire) and the nobody is happy about the balance changes. Seems to me the class rep program is miserably failing to do what they’re supposed to do..... which is provide feedback from the community, us. But most of the feedback has been ignored. Speed was lazily nerfed when everyone SPECIFICALLY SAID the only issue with speed was 3 swift.

Seems like the class rep program is just a scape goat so zos doesn’t get the full brunt of the community outrage.

Hotdog_23

In theory a program like class reps sounds good and looks good on paper but not really. When it was first started, and everyone was like oh join discord for this and that etc. This concerned me because I thought that was what the OFFICAL forums where for and not discord. If you could not open and discuss issues here, then I figured we are in trouble.

Communication is lacking as everyone can agree on. Which is why I guess I cannot see where the program has helped any. Seems ZOS is going to do what ZOS does no matter what is said, and the program looks ZOS hey look at us we listen to our players we have a program for that. When everyday players would like to see some of the bugs fixed and UI worked on and not a dead wall of silence.

I have noticed the when on the rare times when we do get a response for ZOS everyone is like the heavens opened and we thank you so much for gracing us with you precious words, thank you Master for looking our way. When it should be more common.

Sorry to sound so negative but after rereading the notes I still fail to see where anything was really said.

It makes me fill like the average player voice does not matter. You wait or daily talk to the reps about your question and the reps are supposed to speak for us. Why can you just not ask these same questions you are asking them to us here in the forums?

We have a voice and opinion as well. I would hope ZOS is intelligent enough to sift there the BS like everyone else here does. Or is too much to ask that you be bother with engaging us in the official forums and not the choose ones who are to speak for us?

I don’t really see any of these reps on the forums much at all. I’m not trying to speak or sound bad about our rep, I’m sure they have worked hard and care about ESO and I am thankful for what they do but still ZOS should speak to us and not just to some of us. In my eyes the program is all fluff and feel good for ZOS so they can say they are listening to it’s player.

Another question I have is how many of the class reps play only on console?

Or is console the least played compared to computers? Because there are many ways the UI could be made better and is for computer players with the help of adds but who cares about console players as they are not worth our time trying to make the game better for them. I never see anything in any notes about addressing the biggest pains in the UI. Is it because we are not represented, or ZOS does not care to improve the quality of life items just combat and crown store stuff?

frostz417

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

In theory a program like class reps sounds good and looks good on paper but not really. When it was first started, and everyone was like oh join discord for this and that etc. This concerned me because I thought that was what the OFFICAL forums where for and not discord. If you could not open and discuss issues here, then I figured we are in trouble.

Communication is lacking as everyone can agree on. Which is why I guess I cannot see where the program has helped any. Seems ZOS is going to do what ZOS does no matter what is said, and the program looks ZOS hey look at us we listen to our players we have a program for that. When everyday players would like to see some of the bugs fixed and UI worked on and not a dead wall of silence.

I have noticed the when on the rare times when we do get a response for ZOS everyone is like the heavens opened and we thank you so much for gracing us with you precious words, thank you Master for looking our way. When it should be more common.

Sorry to sound so negative but after rereading the notes I still fail to see where anything was really said.

It makes me fill like the average player voice does not matter. You wait or daily talk to the reps about your question and the reps are supposed to speak for us. Why can you just not ask these same questions you are asking them to us here in the forums?

We have a voice and opinion as well. I would hope ZOS is intelligent enough to sift there the BS like everyone else here does. Or is too much to ask that you be bother with engaging us in the official forums and not the choose ones who are to speak for us?

I don’t really see any of these reps on the forums much at all. I’m not trying to speak or sound bad about our rep, I’m sure they have worked hard and care about ESO and I am thankful for what they do but still ZOS should speak to us and not just to some of us. In my eyes the program is all fluff and feel good for ZOS so they can say they are listening to it’s player.

Another question I have is how many of the class reps play only on console?

Or is console the least played compared to computers? Because there are many ways the UI could be made better and is for computer players with the help of adds but who cares about console players as they are not worth our time trying to make the game better for them. I never see anything in any notes about addressing the biggest pains in the UI. Is it because we are not represented, or ZOS does not care to improve the quality of life items just combat and crown store stuff?

I’m 100% convinced that zos does not read the threads. Just monitor it for those who “break the rules” they have to be aware of all the issues but just deliberately ignore it. The class rep program is nothing but a scape goat. If they were actually doing their job. This atrocious balance patch known as murkmire wouldn’t have gone through this way. The pitiful server performance would have also been addressed. Im also convinced the reps themselves do not even play console. They’re all just popular streamers/youtubers on PC, who also don’t read the forums either. I only knew of ONE class rep who read the forums... and he has now left.

It just seems like a complete sham where reps will say suggestions that only they or their friends want and zos ignores most of it and still chooses to go through with such terrible changes.
Prime examples. Speed being overnerded, no addressing the snare/root meta and how easy it is to just snare people down with no effort, and the lack of snare/root immunities most mag classes have.
They just blindly nerf things without any second thought.
The combat team doesn’t know what PvP is, they all play stamblade snipe builds, for both PvP and pve.
Something needs to be changed or the future of this game will not be a long or good one.

aeowulf

paulsimonps wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

We changed Evasion to AoE damage reduction from dodge chance. Feedback on this for both PvP and PvE?

PvE – not a lot changed

ROFL , you guys destroyed most of NB tanks in PVE and said no problem . What a shame !

Check the data and analyze the distribution of tank in PVE , I bet 60% or above are DK , you will rare to see non DK / Warden tank in hard contents like VMOL / VHOF / VAS+2 / VCR+2 , I have no idea how you guys made things like this ?

To be honest, NB tanks were crap before that change anyway. This just made them worse still which as sad as it maybe didn't change a lot. Which is what they wrote. NB Tanks need a ton of changes to fix the terrible state they are in.

yeah, very sad. Underplayed class-role combinations are getting ignored, because they are underplayed. These are the areas that need most work & attention - people don't play them for a reason.

I am still just about holding on, just... mainly because I have hope they get an overhaul before something better comes along.

Derra

This seems awefully short - were things discussed more in dephs and we can´t know because of NDA?

Emma_Overload

I'm really shocked that reps were fine with the Swift nerfs. Surely 8% or even 7% at Gold would be more fair to all the players who golded out Swift rings? 6% is a joke... I'm THIS close to deconstructing all my Swift stuff, or at least changing traits.

Minno

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

We need a Major and Minor Snare debuff, and maybe change Bastion to reduce snares. That would bring a smile to my face

we have major/minor snare. Large overrides smallest.

At most you will be hit with a 70%, which is subtractive from your speed (which is mostly additive with some multiplied).
For example, ironblood gives you a 50% snare. When it is active, anything below 50% just doesnt apply to you but you used to be able to stack swift to "lower" this punishment (old purple swift 3x was 24%, so the 50% became a 26% snare without sprint).

Current snare system is fine, lack of speed/escape options isn't.

edit:
another way to ignore snares, gap closers or streak/NB shade all ignore snares.

Are we playing the same game? Have you tried playing bgs with a melee build against an ice warden, or ice anything for that matter? More speed doesn't change anything if you're snared all the time. It wasn't a problem last patch because there were maybe 2 ice wardens playing high mmr bgs, and when you played against those guys you already knew what was coming once people found out how strong ice staffs were.

I called it several times, eventually this is going to become meta and it will ruin the game for melee builds. 2-3 months later...

Snares need diminishing return. The 1st time you're snared for the full duration, say 8 seconds which is what elemental blockade lasts(just an example). If you get snared again within 20 seconds of the 1st snare, the time is reduced to 4 seconds, then to 2 seconds, and once that 2 sec snare expires you're automatically immune to snares for 10-20 seconds. That's how World of Warcraft deals with CC in PvP. This game desperately needs to apply diminishing return to snares.

You are getting hit with a 70% snare in a huge AOE ultimate and trying to rush in like he's the usual squishy light armor spec you are used to facing, of course it's going to suck lol.
But the problem isnt snares itself, its the options available to intelligently negate those snares.

That is why old swift was great. Sure the targeting SUCKED, but you traded max mag for speed to negate snares, which was the first time in ESO's history where speed was viable option to build for.

Jakx

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ClassReps

Serious question,

How many of you are currently playing magicka classes other than magdk?

Think hard about this before promoting nerfs/buffs.

This so much.

When we talk about snares and melee's inability to move.. thats called a counter. Its the only one a magicka player has largely. It seems like melee players want to have 100% up time on targets. Lets consider the environment too right now. Stamina is insanely more powerful than magicka currently. So Stamina should be way more powerful than magicka and have their counter taken away? No......

Any post I see championing Stamina users to have their movement restored should also include asking for their damage nerfed too. Tell me how you're ready to accept a nerf to unmitagable bleed stacking, a nerf to proc sets playing the game for you, and a nerf to spin-to-win steel tornado thats an undodgeable aoe execute. Then I'll be happy to talk movement restoration for Stamina.

Some of these posts really don't seem to consider the breath of gameplay balance.

Minno

aeowulf wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

We changed Evasion to AoE damage reduction from dodge chance. Feedback on this for both PvP and PvE?

PvE – not a lot changed

ROFL , you guys destroyed most of NB tanks in PVE and said no problem . What a shame !

Check the data and analyze the distribution of tank in PVE , I bet 60% or above are DK , you will rare to see non DK / Warden tank in hard contents like VMOL / VHOF / VAS+2 / VCR+2 , I have no idea how you guys made things like this ?

To be honest, NB tanks were crap before that change anyway. This just made them worse still which as sad as it maybe didn't change a lot. Which is what they wrote. NB Tanks need a ton of changes to fix the terrible state they are in.

yeah, very sad. Underplayed class-role combinations are getting ignored, because they are underplayed. These are the areas that need most work & attention - people don't play them for a reason.

I am still just about holding on, just... mainly because I have hope they get an overhaul before something better comes along.

NB tanks will probably see buffs when the NB dmg gets dropped hard.

ALOT of people would be happy so I approve of NB tank changes lol.

Joy_Division

Jakx wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ClassReps

Serious question,

How many of you are currently playing magicka classes other than magdk?

Think hard about this before promoting nerfs/buffs.

This so much.

When we talk about snares and melee's inability to move.. thats called a counter. Its the only one a magicka player has largely. It seems like melee players want to have 100% up time on targets. Lets consider the environment too right now. Stamina is insanely more powerful than magicka currently. So Stamina should be way more powerful than magicka and have their counter taken away? No......

Any post I see championing Stamina users to have their movement restored should also include asking for their damage nerfed too. Tell me how you're ready to accept a nerf to unmitagable bleed stacking, a nerf to proc sets playing the game for you, and a nerf to spin-to-win steel tornado thats an undodgeable aoe execute. Then I'll be happy to talk movement restoration for Stamina.

Some of these posts really don't seem to consider the breath of gameplay balance.

I am of the opinion that snares and roots are necessary evils for the game (I main a slow melee oriented class), but I also believe that counters should be available to help players deal with those snares and roots.

I do think people got a little too comfortable having 100% uptime at or near the speedcap and are pining for the days they could just out-run the zergs that chased them. ZOS had the correct instinct to reign that in. the issue was rather than using a "chisel" to try and attain that by identifying likely core issues (speed stacking not being subject to diminishing returns for example) they just blindsided the community with blanket nerfs to everything and swung the pendulum too far the other way.

I have seen numerous stamina users themselves criticize bleeds and "spin2win" as being too easy and strong. And I think most players would prefer proc sets not play the game for them. I think there is a middle ground here that we can shoot for in Update 21.

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jakx wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ClassReps

Serious question,

How many of you are currently playing magicka classes other than magdk?

Think hard about this before promoting nerfs/buffs.

This so much.

When we talk about snares and melee's inability to move.. thats called a counter. Its the only one a magicka player has largely. It seems like melee players want to have 100% up time on targets. Lets consider the environment too right now. Stamina is insanely more powerful than magicka currently. So Stamina should be way more powerful than magicka and have their counter taken away? No......

Any post I see championing Stamina users to have their movement restored should also include asking for their damage nerfed too. Tell me how you're ready to accept a nerf to unmitagable bleed stacking, a nerf to proc sets playing the game for you, and a nerf to spin-to-win steel tornado thats an undodgeable aoe execute. Then I'll be happy to talk movement restoration for Stamina.

Some of these posts really don't seem to consider the breath of gameplay balance.

I am of the opinion that snares and roots are necessary evils for the game (I main a slow melee oriented class), but I also believe that counters should be available to help players deal with those snares and roots.

I do think people got a little too comfortable having 100% uptime at or near the speedcap and are pining for the days they could just out-run the zergs that chased them. ZOS had the correct instinct to reign that in. the issue was rather than using a "chisel" to try and attain that by identifying likely core issues (speed stacking not being subject to diminishing returns for example) they just blindsided the community with blanket nerfs to everything and swung the pendulum too far the other way.

I have seen numerous stamina users themselves criticize bleeds and "spin2win" as being too easy and strong. And I think most players would prefer proc sets not play the game for them. I think there is a middle ground here that we can shoot for in Update 21.[/quote]




Make it happen, cap'n!

Varana

Aren't "inexperienced" and "PUGs" self-explaining enough? Why is this even a concern?

They are the largest part of the player base, I'd think, and part of playing even for experienced players, so making sure that balance changes also keep low- to mid-tier players, solo play and PUGs in mind is very important.

Ragnarock41

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jakx wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ClassReps

Serious question,

How many of you are currently playing magicka classes other than magdk?

Think hard about this before promoting nerfs/buffs.

This so much.

When we talk about snares and melee's inability to move.. thats called a counter. Its the only one a magicka player has largely. It seems like melee players want to have 100% up time on targets. Lets consider the environment too right now. Stamina is insanely more powerful than magicka currently. So Stamina should be way more powerful than magicka and have their counter taken away? No......

Any post I see championing Stamina users to have their movement restored should also include asking for their damage nerfed too. Tell me how you're ready to accept a nerf to unmitagable bleed stacking, a nerf to proc sets playing the game for you, and a nerf to spin-to-win steel tornado thats an undodgeable aoe execute. Then I'll be happy to talk movement restoration for Stamina.

Some of these posts really don't seem to consider the breath of gameplay balance.

I am of the opinion that snares and roots are necessary evils for the game (I main a slow melee oriented class), but I also believe that counters should be available to help players deal with those snares and roots.

I do think people got a little too comfortable having 100% uptime at or near the speedcap and are pining for the days they could just out-run the zergs that chased them. ZOS had the correct instinct to reign that in. the issue was rather than using a "chisel" to try and attain that by identifying likely core issues (speed stacking not being subject to diminishing returns for example) they just blindsided the community with blanket nerfs to everything and swung the pendulum too far the other way.

I have seen numerous stamina users themselves criticize bleeds and "spin2win" as being too easy and strong. And I think most players would prefer proc sets not play the game for them. I think there is a middle ground here that we can shoot for in Update 21.

I'm a stamina player, I very often criticize bleeds,procs and spin-to-win builds, but how they're handled makes all the difference. I don't want to be robbed of my already low ability and build choices, I just want those tools to be viable without killing off the competing tools. Devs should consider creating alternative solutions for players they hurt with nerfs. With a potential steel tornado nerf, buffing the other morph would be justifiable for example. It has a cooler animation anyways.

BretonMage

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Shields feel strong in PvE

Who are the class reps speaking for here? I seriously doubt most players would agree that shields are strong.

technohic

Roots and snares are either OP or useless depending on if you have immunity. I think they should serve a purpose in ranged vs melee but that's rarely how they are used with gap closers and some ranged hitting as hard as melee. It's become just a group spam to bomb in stead.

Fiktius

Varana wrote: »

Aren't "inexperienced" and "PUGs" self-explaining enough? Why is this even a concern?

They are the largest part of the player base, I'd think, and part of playing even for experienced players, so making sure that balance changes also keep low- to mid-tier players, solo play and PUGs in mind is very important.

Of course when balancing the game, it's important to keep all sides of the player base in mind, but c'moon, do developers really have to balance the game based on "pugs"?

If that extra HP which Warden brings with minor toughness is so important that pugs can't survive without it, I would dare to say that there is much bigger problems in their own builds and they could check those flaws out.
Or simple solution: learn from it and next time queue with someone who plays with Warden.

Saying "PUGS and inexperienced players don't always have a Warden in group" being a concern and "inexperienced groups therefore often miss out on the extra health, causing them to struggle" sounds to me as silly as this would sound:
"PUGs and inexperienced players don't always bring a real tank with a taunt and that causes them to struggle."

Valykc

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

Any chance to get a crafting rep?

Aliyavana wrote: »

Please give us a housing rep

We can look at something this for future programs, but the goal of the Class Rep Program specifically is to provide feedback on classes and abilities.

Can I be the fashion rep?!?!?! 😁

NyassaV

Bring back healing ward heal plz. Blessing of protection actually misses me a lot and takes even more time to hit me and it's so terrible and clunky and just eww

Varana

Fiktius wrote: »

Of course when balancing the game, it's important to keep all sides of the player base in mind, but c'moon, do developers really have to balance the game based on "pugs"? ...

Or simple solution: learn from it and next time queue with someone who plays with Warden.

No, but they have to keep in mind that their decisions don't only affect pre-selected groups and players who can work around a nerf. So trhe intention of removing a very useful survivability buff from a widely used skill may have been to make the few end-game groups use more Wardens but the actual effect was making the life of many other groups harder. And in such a case, it is important to ask whether the intended goal is worth the cost of the side-effects.

Answering concerns about a PUG (as in 4 random players) with essentially "then don't PUG" is ... not helpful, I believe. PUGging is a way of playing that should be supported with similar attention as premade groups.

Fiktius

Varana wrote: »

Answering concerns about a PUG (as in 4 random players) with essentially "then don't PUG" is ... not helpful, I believe. PUGging is a way of playing that should be supported with similar attention as premade groups.

Lets be real here: That's exactly the case!
If you are willing to queue with pugs, you deal with everything what's waiting for you there, including more or less preferable group combination.
What if you get a team of DDs who pull out so horrible damage that Tank feels miserable need of adding more DPS in order to complete the dungeon and beat the boss?
Are developers supposed to now buff Tank DPS much higher, just because Tank players sometimes did not have too great luck with DD players with random pug? Of course not. Just because you do not get ideal team which you wanted does not mean that developers are supposed to balance game just for that.
But I agree to disagree with you, opinion for each.

Roboplus

Fiktius wrote: »

Are developers supposed to now buff Tank DPS much higher...

Yes. What a strange world it would be if the DPS next to me wasn't dealing 10x more damage than I could, even though I can't survive 10x more damage than they can.

How odd it would be if the healer behind me wasn't dealing 4x more damage than me while effortlessly healing everyone in a city block for 10k.

What an odd notion, that maybe if players received some sort of buff to their offense after being hit for so much raw, unavoidable damage per second that maybe Tanks might be more enjoyable and proactive to play.

Mad thoughts, those are.

DoobZ69

ccfeeling wrote: »

We changed Evasion to AoE damage reduction from dodge chance. Feedback on this for both PvP and PvE?

PvE – not a lot changed

ROFL , you guys destroyed most of NB tanks in PVE and said no problem . What a shame !

Check the data and analyze the distribution of tank in PVE , I bet 60% or above are DK , you will rare to see non DK / Warden tank in hard contents like VMOL / VHOF / VAS+2 / VCR+2 , I have no idea how you guys made things like this ?

The class reps deny that there is an issue within the tanking spread. You'll be told you are a trial non-experienced player and all tanks are fine and the only reason everyone plays DK is Engulfing Flames even if you spell out all the deficiencies the other classes actually have. And then they have the audacity to ask you for a (1000th time) solutions list for the problems they just denied exist.
The real problem is that the class reps have a single vision for the classes. DK thinks he's only meant to be for tanking, Templar for healing, Sorcs run pets, etc. and some reps are obviously better than others in their spread. The real need is for each Role Rep because that is the only consistent thing in this game. But its too late now. If you care about performance just bow your head and roll with the mandatory meta.
There is a slight glimmer of hope with this racial passives review but if they screw it up then its just the final nail in the coffin the way I see it.
I don't tank on my (old main) Sorc anymore. I don't tank on my new DK main either, just not interesting. I'm levelling a Warden tank and hating it. Really only playing because I can without a sub, haven't found a decent replacement game yet and some of my online friends just got the game on the massive Steam discounts. Holding out hope for a positive turn in the direction.

GreatGildersleeve

I’ve read a few of these class rep meeting notes now and they always amaze me.

Most, not all but most, of what I read on the forums is players griping about this, and complaining about that. There’s a few positive posts but they’re few and far between.

These meeting notes always make the state of ESO seem like sunshine and rainbows and pink fluffy unicorns.

I’m not expecting ZoS to admit anything’s wrong (I’m too cynical) but there’s a big disconnect somewhere. Maybe that’s the magical ‘better communication’ thing I’ve heard rumours about.

IAVITNI

Minno wrote: »

Didnt think this was getting posted lol. I am adding my thoughts based on the list.

Speed:
- I dare say swift was fine before the nerf. It was the only counter to zerging for some classes. It should have been a speed cap drop so slow classes (templar, DK) could move around zergs while other more mobile classes (NB, Sorc, Warden) wouldnt see any changes or abuse the extra speed. Swift could also get extra snare reduction to compensate for the nerfs as another idea (or small regen similar to how steed mundas works). You trade ALOT of max mag for running 3x swift, but current swift values do not justify the transmute/crafting.
- major expedition sources nerfed was too much with magden taking the full hit.
- immunity duration was fine.

Shields:
- some classes can sustain these shields, some can't.
- weird lag causes weird shield clunky casting. Some players think its reported to be the animation change from instant cast to cast time (which never got reversed).
- shields drop fast due to inflated crit hit dmg versus crit resist modifiers. Unless you run impreg/trans, most builds are receiving 1.36+ modifiers (turning 15k/20k easy to get burst dmg into 20k/27200. I think adding crit resist jewel traits will help offset this or increase build diversity, while having the same "do I pick max stat/dmg or utility" drawback.)

Evasion:
- 15% for shuffle? Why bother using this ability lol. Shuffle needs a rework if that goes live; 10 seconds of major expedition on cast will do well for alot of classes that need it (stamplar)!
- agreed that evasion impacts alot of classes/builds with no drawback. Agreed on changes, just rework shuffle (PVE can use a weapon for their trials for this buff)

Light Armor:
- agreed that problem is mag toons don't have immunity/reduction outside vampire (id like to see two hander take 15% extra damage from dawnbreakers/fire + forward momentum requiring you to be stuck in a zero stam regen channel if anyone thinks mag having to slot vamp for immunity/removal is fair lol)
- snare reduction is a nice idea, but overall lack of speed options and defensive options outside shields makes light weaker for solo play.
- vamp requirement makes LA spell resist passive take on heavy loads from fire dmg. Outside mobility options will fix this, and mist form is still powerful to justify slotting it. Diversity!
- we already had CP snare reduction, problem is a percentage reduction off a percentage, leads to terrible gains. The old CP only gave like 2 seconds off at 10% (30 points mind you) and was only possible when we had tumbling give both break free + dodge reduction. CP is not the answer.
- snare rework required; no way around it. But major/minor system will not solve issues (we already have this system with the largest snare overriding the lowest). Snare values might need to be dropped or speed increased!

Sets:
- too much work for little benefits. Bright is a nice set because it gives you stats with a clear drawback (drinks and 5pc always on). Similar sets needed.
- need more stat based monster sets. We still don't have speed, crit resist, penetration, mobility, and could use more unique defensive/regen/healing options.
- unique sets for each area of play, with more crossing as well (so PVE crowd has incentive to go into PVP once in awhile, same for PVP going into PVE.)


BGs:
- add group dueling options.
- turn BG's into solo or 2-man group ques only.
- CP creep needs to be reduced and power placed back to classes.
- additional crit resist options outside trans/impreg would help
- additional major protection sources are helping, but most are too niche to run on certain mag specs.


Cyro,
- new map changes are refreshing. But after playing appear too linear/obtuse in map play.
- issue in cyro is lack of speed options and lack of enjoyment outside the zerglanes. But I think lag is causing players to not do much, as they don't want to ride to an empty area to fight no one for zero AP gains when they can spam heals/aoes/seige in lag and get 10-15k AP per keep lose/win.
- turn off bot protection in cyro; it's not needed as the players are the anti-bot protection lol.
- look into additional UI systems causing performance issues/lag (example the guild roster using up resources checking player statuses). Willing to bet the cyro map is updating too much.


That is all I have!

First of all, shame on every single person that did not like this post.

Second, I'm going to quote the whole thing unbroken so that people will have to read it again and give them a chance to redeem themselves by going back and liking the original post.

Third, I do disagree with 1 single point and only with the current state of magicka as a whole, and even then, I agree more than I disagree.

Minno wrote: »

I think adding crit resist jewel traits will help offset this or increase build diversity, while having the same "do I pick max stat/dmg or utility" drawback.)"

More sources of impen is 100% welcome and will definitely increase build diversity. However, I disagree (and for the sole reason that this was mentioned in relation to shields) that this would actually help offset shields dropping to fast. As most builds will be trading arcane for impen, players are trading shield strength for shield strength. General strength for niche strength at that. The only way impen jewelry would help shields is if the values are so stupid OP that stamina becomes immune to crit.

Light armor shield builds are already starved for stats as it is.

• Destro heavy attacks are unrealiable meaning mag needs more sustain than stam
• High mag costs for skills across the board compared to stamina
• Previous benefit of ability to ignore mitigation stats is no longer true, and light armor actually requires higher resistances due to less access to dodge, block and HoTs like Vigor. Stats that were previously used for damage/sustain must now be invested into mitigation, and at a greater rate than stamina
• Requirement to invest into off stat, something that most stamina builds can completely ignore. Bone Pirate is a guaranteed benefit to any stam build, even if it is not BiS. Bright-Throat can be detrimental due to the necessity of stamina in a PvP environment

The point is, light armor needs an internal buff, not complimenting gear sets and stats. Now I'm not saying double everything. This isn't Diablo 3. But some things that arguably NEED to happen for light armor to be viable in PvP

• Reduce costs of skills, especially shields. The high costs was validated by the fact that they ignored offensive stats. They no longer do this, so now shields require both heavy stat and resource investments
• Return the heal to Healing Ward or provide magblade and magsorc with better reliable heals. BoL, Spores and Cauterize will work on any build. Dark Cloak and Dark Deal will not. Does ZoS not like Dark things?
• Shields cannot crit but can be crit themselves. A "necessary" change I suppose. Shields needed a change but Murkmire changes killed shield identity and light armor play style. If my shields drop its ok because I'm still tanky underneath. Shields could still use some innate reduction to crit damage. Maybe extra impen with a shield or just a flat crit reduction. Something to offset the nigh impossibility of surviving crit builds w/o impregnable/trans but still small enough that crits still hurt.

To clarify, all the above changes would be very very small changes. Like a 3% cost reduction across the board (probably greater for shields-like 5%-6%), Healing Ward providing a heal when it expires (not on cast) and 5% crit reduction or an extra impen trait.

Captain_Slaymore

So, they aren't fixing something when they nerf speed too much or evasion too much, they aren't helping 'Balance" anything until they fix the core issues of things that just don't work in the game. The class Reps are talking Class and Abilities, many of them stream PvP action and know the game dynamics and make a living off of basically exploiting the broken dynamics to ensure their success in game. SO, unless they have their notepads out, and see what the folks who are subbing have to say and take the PLAYER input into consideration, not just what a handful of Reps have to say into account, this is just gonna be the same Zos treadmill it has always been.

A lot of us play multiple toons and classes, but some are underplayed because they just aren't worth rolling, leveling or gearing. So, anytime the Dev team or Reps say things like "excited" "changes" and "we" you know they aren't gonna fix anything really and there is going to be more things broken that have to be "balanced" later.

If they would just Move the team that develops the crown store stuff and marketing over to game development, hell, we would get a patch every 10 days. Got all this time to make new Mounts and "Exclusive" stuff, but we have to wait years for them to say fix the snare / cc issues. They can make add in game items like they are on fire, but refuse to even address our concerns. So, the thing for me is that i honestly believe the Class Rep thing is just a portal to use YouTube folks to promote the game to increase sales cause they aren't repping us, the folks who play the classes.

Sorry if i come across as salty, but i find it annoying that they have a design contest, an event, and i get a code for an exclusive t-shirt created by a community member that they want me to pay $15.00 dollars for. Then, in game i am greeted with "Send a gift worth 1000 crowns to a friend and get this new mount!!!" Oh hey, look over here at the new holiday items and this super adorable snow globe house!!! Don't forget the new Crown Crates available in the Crown Store!!! If all of this can be done, then surely to god they can figure out how to "balance" the game and classes.

Minno

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Didnt think this was getting posted lol. I am adding my thoughts based on the list.

Speed:
- I dare say swift was fine before the nerf. It was the only counter to zerging for some classes. It should have been a speed cap drop so slow classes (templar, DK) could move around zergs while other more mobile classes (NB, Sorc, Warden) wouldnt see any changes or abuse the extra speed. Swift could also get extra snare reduction to compensate for the nerfs as another idea (or small regen similar to how steed mundas works). You trade ALOT of max mag for running 3x swift, but current swift values do not justify the transmute/crafting.
- major expedition sources nerfed was too much with magden taking the full hit.
- immunity duration was fine.

Shields:
- some classes can sustain these shields, some can't.
- weird lag causes weird shield clunky casting. Some players think its reported to be the animation change from instant cast to cast time (which never got reversed).
- shields drop fast due to inflated crit hit dmg versus crit resist modifiers. Unless you run impreg/trans, most builds are receiving 1.36+ modifiers (turning 15k/20k easy to get burst dmg into 20k/27200. I think adding crit resist jewel traits will help offset this or increase build diversity, while having the same "do I pick max stat/dmg or utility" drawback.)

Evasion:
- 15% for shuffle? Why bother using this ability lol. Shuffle needs a rework if that goes live; 10 seconds of major expedition on cast will do well for alot of classes that need it (stamplar)!
- agreed that evasion impacts alot of classes/builds with no drawback. Agreed on changes, just rework shuffle (PVE can use a weapon for their trials for this buff)

Light Armor:
- agreed that problem is mag toons don't have immunity/reduction outside vampire (id like to see two hander take 15% extra damage from dawnbreakers/fire + forward momentum requiring you to be stuck in a zero stam regen channel if anyone thinks mag having to slot vamp for immunity/removal is fair lol)
- snare reduction is a nice idea, but overall lack of speed options and defensive options outside shields makes light weaker for solo play.
- vamp requirement makes LA spell resist passive take on heavy loads from fire dmg. Outside mobility options will fix this, and mist form is still powerful to justify slotting it. Diversity!
- we already had CP snare reduction, problem is a percentage reduction off a percentage, leads to terrible gains. The old CP only gave like 2 seconds off at 10% (30 points mind you) and was only possible when we had tumbling give both break free + dodge reduction. CP is not the answer.
- snare rework required; no way around it. But major/minor system will not solve issues (we already have this system with the largest snare overriding the lowest). Snare values might need to be dropped or speed increased!

Sets:
- too much work for little benefits. Bright is a nice set because it gives you stats with a clear drawback (drinks and 5pc always on). Similar sets needed.
- need more stat based monster sets. We still don't have speed, crit resist, penetration, mobility, and could use more unique defensive/regen/healing options.
- unique sets for each area of play, with more crossing as well (so PVE crowd has incentive to go into PVP once in awhile, same for PVP going into PVE.)


BGs:
- add group dueling options.
- turn BG's into solo or 2-man group ques only.
- CP creep needs to be reduced and power placed back to classes.
- additional crit resist options outside trans/impreg would help
- additional major protection sources are helping, but most are too niche to run on certain mag specs.


Cyro,
- new map changes are refreshing. But after playing appear too linear/obtuse in map play.
- issue in cyro is lack of speed options and lack of enjoyment outside the zerglanes. But I think lag is causing players to not do much, as they don't want to ride to an empty area to fight no one for zero AP gains when they can spam heals/aoes/seige in lag and get 10-15k AP per keep lose/win.
- turn off bot protection in cyro; it's not needed as the players are the anti-bot protection lol.
- look into additional UI systems causing performance issues/lag (example the guild roster using up resources checking player statuses). Willing to bet the cyro map is updating too much.


That is all I have!

First of all, shame on every single person that did not like this post.

Second, I'm going to quote the whole thing unbroken so that people will have to read it again and give them a chance to redeem themselves by going back and liking the original post.

Third, I do disagree with 1 single point and only with the current state of magicka as a whole, and even then, I agree more than I disagree.

Minno wrote: »

I think adding crit resist jewel traits will help offset this or increase build diversity, while having the same "do I pick max stat/dmg or utility" drawback.)"

More sources of impen is 100% welcome and will definitely increase build diversity. However, I disagree (and for the sole reason that this was mentioned in relation to shields) that this would actually help offset shields dropping to fast. As most builds will be trading arcane for impen, players are trading shield strength for shield strength. General strength for niche strength at that. The only way impen jewelry would help shields is if the values are so stupid OP that stamina becomes immune to crit.

Light armor shield builds are already starved for stats as it is.

• Destro heavy attacks are unrealiable meaning mag needs more sustain than stam
• High mag costs for skills across the board compared to stamina
• Previous benefit of ability to ignore mitigation stats is no longer true, and light armor actually requires higher resistances due to less access to dodge, block and HoTs like Vigor. Stats that were previously used for damage/sustain must now be invested into mitigation, and at a greater rate than stamina
• Requirement to invest into off stat, something that most stamina builds can completely ignore. Bone Pirate is a guaranteed benefit to any stam build, even if it is not BiS. Bright-Throat can be detrimental due to the necessity of stamina in a PvP environment

The point is, light armor needs an internal buff, not complimenting gear sets and stats. Now I'm not saying double everything. This isn't Diablo 3. But some things that arguably NEED to happen for light armor to be viable in PvP

• Reduce costs of skills, especially shields. The high costs was validated by the fact that they ignored offensive stats. They no longer do this, so now shields require both heavy stat and resource investments
• Return the heal to Healing Ward or provide magblade and magsorc with better reliable heals. BoL, Spores and Cauterize will work on any build. Dark Cloak and Dark Deal will not. Does ZoS not like Dark things?
• Shields cannot crit but can be crit themselves. A "necessary" change I suppose. Shields needed a change but Murkmire changes killed shield identity and light armor play style. If my shields drop its ok because I'm still tanky underneath. Shields could still use some innate reduction to crit damage. Maybe extra impen with a shield or just a flat crit reduction. Something to offset the nigh impossibility of surviving crit builds w/o impregnable/trans but still small enough that crits still hurt.

To clarify, all the above changes would be very very small changes. Like a 3% cost reduction across the board (probably greater for shields-like 5%-6%), Healing Ward providing a heal when it expires (not on cast) and 5% crit reduction or an extra impen trait.

I agree with your post!

Don't undervalue crit resists though; their value, even on shields, is better due to their order in the dmg mitigation equation.

We might have to do the exact math, but Id wager adding crit resists to be closer to 4k with jewels+CP would be balanced by the ability to use 2 5pc sets for extra dmg/regen and the fact that you turn a 1.36-1.46 modifer into a 1.15-1.20. That 20k attack , instead of an even worse 27200, you turn it into a 23000 (4200 dmg difference, which is probably more than the size of your shield gain running 3x arcane. )