Do you think argonians are going to get changes next patch?

Sharee

[nevermind]

Tommy_The_Gun

templesus wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Anyone who thinks argonian shouldn’t be nerfed probably plays as an argonian.

#1 race for Healers. #1 race for Tanks. Most common race in PvP. The race is overperforming.

If you have played on max leveled argonian character at least once you would know that their "Resourceful" passive is not as strong as people say (ok don't get me wrong - it is a strong passive... But it is not as strong as people say it is). People simply tend to overrate things - especially if they don't play much using specific race / class and once they read passive description on some eso wiki they are like.. IT IS SUPER OP ! ! !

It is even hard to call it a passive as it is not a "passive" passive. Instead it is a proc - passive and sure - you get "burst" recovery but in order for this to work in pvp you need 3x infused jewelry with potion cooldown. In other words - you have to build for it and make sacrefices for it to be strong. And btw. - you can achive similar result with any race if you use tri-stat pots & 3x infused jewelry with potion cooldown enchant.

I would also like to point out that relying solely on "Recorcfull" pssive is a double headed axe and you will often end up in a situation when you are low on stamia, your potions are on cooldown and you are getting stunned & die.
Races that have constant "passive" bonus to recovery don't have that problem.
The only reason people pick argonian as a tank or for pvp is you get slighly more stamina while blocking and weapon disease enchant can't proc minor defile on you (just like bosmer, argonians have disease resistance bonus).

As for the "bis" healers it is debatable. Altmer & breton seems to be better choices as they have 10% bonus to max magicka vs argonian 5% healing done.

As someone who played this game since 2014 I can tell you this: Argonian resourcefull is not op or anything when you take into account that argonias have no % bonus to recovery. This passive has a potenial to be strong when you use 3x infused jewelry with potion cooldown enchant.
If something needs to be looked into next update it is the infused jewelry or potion cooldown enchants - not argonian passive.

You realize resourceful isn’t the only passive they have right? This is why I can’t debate with people on these forums, they are so twisted in thinking they’re right that they actively use logical fallacies and cherry-pick data.

Resourceful alone isn’t enough to make argonian OP. It’s that, with the 9% HP, 3% Max Magicka, 5% healing done and 5% healing taken and immunity to poisoned and disease status effects that makes the race so good for Tanks and Healers, and exceptional in PvP.

Seriously, those of you who cherry-pick data need to stop. Nowhere in my original comment did I say resourceful was OP, but you immediately harp on it as if that’s the only passive they have. That’s ridiculous.

You are saying it as if altmers, redguards, dunmers, bretons, orcs, imperials, khajits, bosmer & nords had only one racial passive...
This topic is about resourceful passive (read OP post). And just like I and many other people said argonian passives are not OP or anything. Those passives simply make argonians good at sustain - and pretty much nothing else. If any racial passives require changes those would be nord ones.

Shraar

Sharee wrote: »

[nevermind]

lmao get off my avatar @Sharee

Sharee

Shraar wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

[nevermind]

lmao get off my avatar @Sharee

Your avatar, eh?

Username
Shraar
Joined
August 6

Username
Sharee
Joined
February 2014

Tan9oSuccka

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

If they gut my Argonian Magplar PVE healer....I'm going to be very unhappy if Altmer aren't brought in line with other classes.

Isnt dunmer used more than altmer because most players like that 3% more fire damage along with larger stamina pools? I use altmer purely for the 2% more frost damage than dunmer. Otherwise i would be a dunmer.

People like Dunmer because original Morrowind.

Sadly, all the yolo swag streamer mag builds are centered around Altmer.

Kurat

Sadly pvp kids are ruining the game. 90% of nerfs happen because their whining. You know there's also pve right?

ESO_Nightingale

Emmagoldman wrote: »

The idea of buffing everything is so ridiculous. Not worried about power Creep? There are too many pvers that don’t care for balance and just want to power through everything. Wonder why healers aren’t needed..........

I’m fine with different class set ups having a race that may pull slightly ahead as long as others have viability or are bis with different set ups. Zos did a decent job of rebalancing and I hope they are wise enough to build off of that and make tiny adjustments. There is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Argonian is pulling head and makes for the best tank across all classes. It needs a slight nerf. Slight, as in tiny adjustment. Maybe a decrease to the amount for potion restore and a 1 percent decrease to healing done and received. Nothing drastic, nothing that would warrant saltiness

Nord needs a buff. It’s passives should make it a good choice for warden, as dmg mitigation and minor protection should stack with the minor protection built into the class.

I’d like to see a slight increase to its overall dmg mitigation. It has cold dmg resists, why not give it dmg for using frost abilities? It would allow a niche for nord to fit in and give it slightly better use with all tanking roles.

Buff healing

templesus

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Anyone who thinks argonian shouldn’t be nerfed probably plays as an argonian.

#1 race for Healers. #1 race for Tanks. Most common race in PvP. The race is overperforming.

If you have played on max leveled argonian character at least once you would know that their "Resourceful" passive is not as strong as people say (ok don't get me wrong - it is a strong passive... But it is not as strong as people say it is). People simply tend to overrate things - especially if they don't play much using specific race / class and once they read passive description on some eso wiki they are like.. IT IS SUPER OP ! ! !

It is even hard to call it a passive as it is not a "passive" passive. Instead it is a proc - passive and sure - you get "burst" recovery but in order for this to work in pvp you need 3x infused jewelry with potion cooldown. In other words - you have to build for it and make sacrefices for it to be strong. And btw. - you can achive similar result with any race if you use tri-stat pots & 3x infused jewelry with potion cooldown enchant.

I would also like to point out that relying solely on "Recorcfull" pssive is a double headed axe and you will often end up in a situation when you are low on stamia, your potions are on cooldown and you are getting stunned & die.
Races that have constant "passive" bonus to recovery don't have that problem.
The only reason people pick argonian as a tank or for pvp is you get slighly more stamina while blocking and weapon disease enchant can't proc minor defile on you (just like bosmer, argonians have disease resistance bonus).

As for the "bis" healers it is debatable. Altmer & breton seems to be better choices as they have 10% bonus to max magicka vs argonian 5% healing done.

As someone who played this game since 2014 I can tell you this: Argonian resourcefull is not op or anything when you take into account that argonias have no % bonus to recovery. This passive has a potenial to be strong when you use 3x infused jewelry with potion cooldown enchant.
If something needs to be looked into next update it is the infused jewelry or potion cooldown enchants - not argonian passive.

You realize resourceful isn’t the only passive they have right? This is why I can’t debate with people on these forums, they are so twisted in thinking they’re right that they actively use logical fallacies and cherry-pick data.

Resourceful alone isn’t enough to make argonian OP. It’s that, with the 9% HP, 3% Max Magicka, 5% healing done and 5% healing taken and immunity to poisoned and disease status effects that makes the race so good for Tanks and Healers, and exceptional in PvP.

Seriously, those of you who cherry-pick data need to stop. Nowhere in my original comment did I say resourceful was OP, but you immediately harp on it as if that’s the only passive they have. That’s ridiculous.

You are saying it as if altmers, redguards, dunmers, bretons, orcs, imperials, khajits, bosmer & nords had only one racial passive...
This topic is about resourceful passive (read OP post). And just like I and many other people said argonian passives are not OP or anything. Those passives simply make argonians good at sustain - and pretty much nothing else. If any racial passives require changes those would be nord ones.

“Do you think argonian will get changes next patch?” I answered the question. It says nothing about resourceful. I clicked on this post to talk about argonian, not a singular passive by itself. And again, you use yet another logical fallacy by assuming that I’m commenting as if the other races only have one passive, which I’m not, because i actually like to have intelligent discussion.

Just prove your ignorance more and more.

xaraan

The only thing sort of OP about Argonians is the potion passive and that is only in certain situations and requires a consumable. Most they should honestly change about it is let battle spirit cut it in half b/c it's mostly whined about in PvP.

I have changed all of my characters to argonians, not for the passives, but b/c I love them. I've seen a big difference in damage output on things like my mag-dk who used to be dunmer, or my sorc that used to be high-elf. BUT, at least you get like a little health or stam back which can be handy in a dungeon or trial when you drink a magicka pot - that makes up for the no damage or significant stat buffs. Or like on my stam warden, who used to be bosmer - not as strong as Redguards sure, but the extra stam back on top of the stam pot makes up for losing the massive regen from bosmer.

Personally, I think the biggest issue is the way tanks are just screwed for resources. The potion passive and DK regen passive are huge deals because of how they took cost reduction out of CP. We see any benefit to tankiness bleed over in PvP because anything that helps tanks can help any build in PvP. ZoS should use battle spirit more and nerfs/buffs less in some situations. Sure, high end guild tanks will say it's no problem for them, but when runs are stacked with max dps and wiped and started over every mistep, you aren't talking about a run most players will see. Fact is resources are a big deal for tanking and the more it is attacked, the more boring the job has become. Sometimes it gets harder sure, but I think the boredom of the tanking job is what has really driven some away. I know I look to tank less every often I get when I have a chance, even though I've mostly tanked in the game.

Honestly, I think they should offer racial morphs - so you can direct your character in a certain way and I think, to break the mold - there should be three morphs of each. One support, One Stamina, and One magicka. For example, they could still offer a potion passive like they do now, but it could be a version that gives you a bit of each still for support (just less) or gives you a a heavier dose of stam or mag back depending on morph and less of others. This could still be solid for pvp, could even see magicka based characters still taking the stam morph or support morph, but they'd be giving up the extra bit for PvE dps.

My concern is 1. ZoS isn't good at balancing, as we've seen since launch. So I worry not that things will be corrected in a smart way, but that things will become worse. (ie, take away the passive all together and then not give them anything to equal what makes the strongest races strong) and 2. I worry more that they will not only be worse, but first they will post a bunch of horrible changes like the Shield nerfs last patch, to get everyone riled up, then act like they are listening and walk back the changes to something still horrible, but just less horrible than the first offering. Then everyone will just live with it because hey, it's not as bad as what they were going to do.

But knowing they essentially have people balancing that don't know the game, and they are listening (maybe) to players who might not even know the races intimately, but just have perceptions of what is strong because something something they've seen or heard worries me. Until you've done some of the exact same stuff in pvp and pve that I've done on the exact same build and just gone from one race to Argonian (as I've done for all my characters by now - going from some of the strong races for a given build to argonian without changing any gear or CP or anything else) and seen the real difference in power level between losing bonus stats and regen and other damage bonuses to getting the potion passive, then you really don't know what you are talking about when you go on about argonians and this passive. I don't think I've ever been able to more clearly see changes when nothing else is changed, not the team, not the content, not a patch, not gear, not CP, just one day you are dunmer magDK and next day Argonian, to really get a feel for the difference between races. In fact, this is one of the few passives that at least offers something to make up for not getting those huge buffs and other races need more of that for various roles, definitely not to just take it away all together.

In the end, if they do anything to ding this passive, then no matter what they replace it with or how little they adjust it, then they deserve equal damage buffs to what any of the high end races have now. Because if you don't get the same extra damage a high elf or dark elf gets in magicka, or the same buffs a redguard gets in stam, and you don't get some other side benefit on the level they get, then it is not balanced. Getting enough stam from a mag pot to dodge roll one more time or block, or a little health to take one more hit is the only thing that really makes up for all you give up in playing the race vs races that get huge state and damage buffs. (and even with players calling the passive OP - you still don't see people choosing to play it in PvE over redguard for stam, or high-elf or dunmer for mag - so I guess it's not that OP - and if you have a problem that is PvP only, then you should look at battle spirit, not screwing up PvE balance) And this goes for all the other races too. (I know Nord needs the most love).

I really think the best thing for balancing this passive and the game would be to take another hard look at resources. Not saying they have to go back to the cost reduction they had before, but if you lowered the cost of skills across the board by a hand picked amount, then every build, every player and every race would benefit and passives that offer resources would become less powerful without a nerf. And god forbid, the game might even be more fun to play like it used to be.

Snit

The "Best in Slot" races are generally considered to be Redguard, Argonian, Altmer and (sometimes) Khajit or Dunmer. I hope none of them is nerfed. The resulting disruption and drama would not be healthy for the game.

Instead, the other races need a buff (some more than others). Part of that is sheer 'power,' part of it is scaling (Breton and Nord bonuses are currently subject to diminishing returns), but most of it is options. Races should be less pigeonholed than they currently are.

I'm glad they are revisiting this, and I hope they do so effectively and without making players feel driven to the Crown Shop for race changes.

frostz417

Hippity hoppity argonians are property

BahometZ

Best not be touching my lizard.

_Ahala_

Emmagoldman wrote: »

The idea of buffing everything is so ridiculous. Not worried about power Creep? There are too many pvers that don’t care for balance and just want to power through everything. Wonder why healers aren’t needed..........

I’m fine with different class set ups having a race that may pull slightly ahead as long as others have viability or are bis with different set ups. Zos did a decent job of rebalancing and I hope they are wise enough to build off of that and make tiny adjustments. There is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Argonian is pulling head and makes for the best tank across all classes. It needs a slight nerf. Slight, as in tiny adjustment. Maybe a decrease to the amount for potion restore and a 1 percent decrease to healing done and received. Nothing drastic, nothing that would warrant saltiness

Nord needs a buff. It’s passives should make it a good choice for warden, as dmg mitigation and minor protection should stack with the minor protection built into the class.

I’d like to see a slight increase to its overall dmg mitigation. It has cold dmg resists, why not give it dmg for using frost abilities? It would allow a niche for nord to fit in and give it slightly better use with all tanking roles.

How would increased damage with frost abilities be a buff to warden when the good Magden damaging abilities do generic magic damage and winters embrace (the potential ice damage tree) is infested with abilities that have both morphs exclusively designed for tanks

ESO_Nightingale

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Emmagoldman wrote: »

The idea of buffing everything is so ridiculous. Not worried about power Creep? There are too many pvers that don’t care for balance and just want to power through everything. Wonder why healers aren’t needed..........

I’m fine with different class set ups having a race that may pull slightly ahead as long as others have viability or are bis with different set ups. Zos did a decent job of rebalancing and I hope they are wise enough to build off of that and make tiny adjustments. There is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Argonian is pulling head and makes for the best tank across all classes. It needs a slight nerf. Slight, as in tiny adjustment. Maybe a decrease to the amount for potion restore and a 1 percent decrease to healing done and received. Nothing drastic, nothing that would warrant saltiness

Nord needs a buff. It’s passives should make it a good choice for warden, as dmg mitigation and minor protection should stack with the minor protection built into the class.

I’d like to see a slight increase to its overall dmg mitigation. It has cold dmg resists, why not give it dmg for using frost abilities? It would allow a niche for nord to fit in and give it slightly better use with all tanking roles.

How would increased damage with frost abilities be a buff to warden when the good Magden damaging abilities do generic magic damage and winters embrace (the potential ice damage tree) is infested with abilities that have both morphs exclusively designed for tanks

This man knows!

Lumenn

Honestly I just wish they'd reverse the sustain nerfs and leave races alone. Then racials could go back to being flavors and not such a big deal. One nerf squeezed sustain and next thing I know I'm seeing dozens of argonian clones. I actually got tired of seeing them and quit playing mine bleh.

Seeing as zos probably won't do that just remove racials and let each character "unlock" a passive based on play style or maybe even a series of quests. Say level 10-30-and last one at 50.

Banana

Hopefully

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

zyk wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

They shouldnt be.

The other races just need buffs, the Argonian passives make sense lore wise. Genetically they are incredible and their racial passives show it.

Argonians should really just be the bar for everyone else imo no need to bring them down

If 1/10 races is OP, the correct approach is to adjust the OP race, not buff the 9 others. The 'buff everything else' approach to game balance is nonsensical and only results in a faster rate of power creep.

Argonians are actually far from OP we are just well rounded. Orcs make great Heavy stamina builds, Altmer, Breton and Dummer top tier Mages. Bosmer and Redguard the best stamina races no question. Argonians are just a middle ground race with sustain for all three stats. Which only works better then other races sustain if you chain chug your potions.

thankyourat

There is no need to nerf argonians. your already make pretty big sacrifices to run the race in the first place. At one point and time I was giving up almost 4k worth on Magicka because I was an argonian instead of a high elf. That's a huge amount of damage that can't be made up else where. If I was going to duel argonian would probably never be my desired race for anything other than templar. The other races just have bigger stat pools and better primary stat recovery.

Argonian is however perfect for a solo player because it has some of the things you need for solo play built in to class like a bigger health pool, and off stat sustain and a small heal when you pop a potion. So you are basically giving up damage for survivability which I don't see a problem with. It's really only the best race for solo PvPers and only for a few classes

GiggleGoat

I know this backfired hard on my poor sorc last time... But I'll give them a chance to see what they do first before sharpening my pitchfork.

I'm also hoping with the reps able to get into the discussion earlier than U20 that maybe they can advise them on not just gutting races but making good adjustments.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Something has to be nerfed next patch in order to continue to support power creep via champion system and strong gear in the new content. The cycle continues till there is nothing good left.

Mayrael

And maybe Altmer, Bretons, Dunmers, Redguards, Bosmers and Orcs need a slight nerf, nothing to big, just 1% here and there? Hmm?

From what I saw in Cyrodiil during last year Argonians are not even close to be top choosen class. The most often seen are Redguards, Bosmers and Orcs when it goes to stam classes. Magicka ones are Dunmers, Altmer and a bit less often Bretons. Then we have Khajiits and Argonians, last one are Nords.

These are just my observations, but I can sacrifice my self and spend some time collecting data (very useful in that matter will be Miats add-on that collects data about every character ever seen). I'm not afraid of results, TBH I'll do it either way, but I expect that narration will change from "Argonians are OP because it's most played race" to "class popularity isn't the indicator of its strength"

munster1404

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

1. If Argonians resourceful gets nerfed so the Redguards adrenaline rush should be.
2. While you're so concerned about races balance and want "adjustments" you better prepare those race change tickets for yourself. This is what ZOS wants, they will never balance races, they will just shift meta from one race to another in the name of the holy balance so we all will be forced to buy those darn tickets.

ZOS proven many times they are unable or unwilling to do things right, they leave more things broken than fixed with each patch.

When players are afraid of next update and they are most excited because of bugs fixing from previous updates, something is seriously bad.

The problem is that some players hate 'tanky' races. Those players need to go straight to oblivion and stay there.

@ZOS_RobGarrett

"Tanky" races are antithetical to a good PvP experience. I don't care about PvP at all. Hate it, despise it. Only doing it for Vigour/Caltrops/Warhorn. But apparently the PvP community finds hordes of Argonians running around in Cyrodill is not conducive to diversity.

I suck at sustain. Argonians make it less tedious. Race is ugly? Don't care since I always wear a full face helm. And there are plenty of costumes that I buy from the crown store which can hide that scaly face.

There's no doubt that Lizards will be nerfed. Hope that it's not too harsh though. I am still betting on that slim 0.0001% chance that ZOS would elect buffs over nerfs. In reality, good players are rare, average/mediocre players needing that advantage in racial passives are a dime a dozen. The latter will just find the next mathematically efficient race to play. And race change tokens will continue to sell. I know it will because I have already spent 2 of them converting my characters to Argonians after Morrowind sustain nerfs plus another 2 after Infused Jewellery (it's so good when combined with potion glyphs) was made available.

I still have 5 more tokens waiting. Please prove me wrong.

MartiniDaniels

I wanna bag and shoes from leather of sorry lizard backside

HappyLittleTree

I hope so!
Like more body markings, choose if you're a naga, brightthroat or any of the other known tribes, additional feathers/horns. Maybe add a reed style House like the ones in Murkmire.

That would be neat!

dodgehopper_ESO

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I think it is inevitable that Argonian racials are going to get some balance changes. When it comes to self-healing they're just streets ahead of everyone else.

If they take away the healing received bonus and replaced it with a 5%/10% Poison damage bonus I will not be complaining.

5%/10% poison damage? Are you joking or serious?

Tbh that sounds like bosmers thing id add it to them.

That's just lore ignorance. Argonians are known to be some of the best alchemists in the series, and they are innately immune to poisons at least historically in the series. The devs for ESO decided to go more with the healing/healthy theme of the class and less with the skirmisher style of the class.

At a certain point though I think its pretty selfish of people wanting to get Argonian destroyed when it would make more sense to simply deal with things like improving Nord/Imperial.

ESO_Nightingale

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I think it is inevitable that Argonian racials are going to get some balance changes. When it comes to self-healing they're just streets ahead of everyone else.

If they take away the healing received bonus and replaced it with a 5%/10% Poison damage bonus I will not be complaining.

5%/10% poison damage? Are you joking or serious?

Tbh that sounds like bosmers thing id add it to them.

That's just lore ignorance. Argonians are known to be some of the best alchemists in the series, and they are innately immune to poisons at least historically in the series. The devs for ESO decided to go more with the healing/healthy theme of the class and less with the skirmisher style of the class.

At a certain point though I think its pretty selfish of people wanting to get Argonian destroyed when it would make more sense to simply deal with things like improving Nord/Imperial.

Yeah i think that argonians dont need to be destroyed. I think people are assuming that i want that. I just wanted to know what the community felt. But maybe both bosmer and argonians could have a poison damage increase. The thing with argonian is that the increase of poison damage with them would make sense lore wise, however it would be odd on a class that is healing/tank based. Bosmer would fit right in.

dodgehopper_ESO

xaraan wrote: »

The only thing sort of OP about Argonians is the potion passive and that is only in certain situations and requires a consumable. Most they should honestly change about it is let battle spirit cut it in half b/c it's mostly whined about in PvP.

I have changed all of my characters to argonians, not for the passives, but b/c I love them. I've seen a big difference in damage output on things like my mag-dk who used to be dunmer, or my sorc that used to be high-elf. BUT, at least you get like a little health or stam back which can be handy in a dungeon or trial when you drink a magicka pot - that makes up for the no damage or significant stat buffs. Or like on my stam warden, who used to be bosmer - not as strong as Redguards sure, but the extra stam back on top of the stam pot makes up for losing the massive regen from bosmer.

Personally, I think the biggest issue is the way tanks are just screwed for resources. The potion passive and DK regen passive are huge deals because of how they took cost reduction out of CP. We see any benefit to tankiness bleed over in PvP because anything that helps tanks can help any build in PvP. ZoS should use battle spirit more and nerfs/buffs less in some situations. Sure, high end guild tanks will say it's no problem for them, but when runs are stacked with max dps and wiped and started over every mistep, you aren't talking about a run most players will see. Fact is resources are a big deal for tanking and the more it is attacked, the more boring the job has become. Sometimes it gets harder sure, but I think the boredom of the tanking job is what has really driven some away. I know I look to tank less every often I get when I have a chance, even though I've mostly tanked in the game.

Honestly, I think they should offer racial morphs - so you can direct your character in a certain way and I think, to break the mold - there should be three morphs of each. One support, One Stamina, and One magicka. For example, they could still offer a potion passive like they do now, but it could be a version that gives you a bit of each still for support (just less) or gives you a a heavier dose of stam or mag back depending on morph and less of others. This could still be solid for pvp, could even see magicka based characters still taking the stam morph or support morph, but they'd be giving up the extra bit for PvE dps.

My concern is 1. ZoS isn't good at balancing, as we've seen since launch. So I worry not that things will be corrected in a smart way, but that things will become worse. (ie, take away the passive all together and then not give them anything to equal what makes the strongest races strong) and 2. I worry more that they will not only be worse, but first they will post a bunch of horrible changes like the Shield nerfs last patch, to get everyone riled up, then act like they are listening and walk back the changes to something still horrible, but just less horrible than the first offering. Then everyone will just live with it because hey, it's not as bad as what they were going to do.

But knowing they essentially have people balancing that don't know the game, and they are listening (maybe) to players who might not even know the races intimately, but just have perceptions of what is strong because something something they've seen or heard worries me. Until you've done some of the exact same stuff in pvp and pve that I've done on the exact same build and just gone from one race to Argonian (as I've done for all my characters by now - going from some of the strong races for a given build to argonian without changing any gear or CP or anything else) and seen the real difference in power level between losing bonus stats and regen and other damage bonuses to getting the potion passive, then you really don't know what you are talking about when you go on about argonians and this passive. I don't think I've ever been able to more clearly see changes when nothing else is changed, not the team, not the content, not a patch, not gear, not CP, just one day you are dunmer magDK and next day Argonian, to really get a feel for the difference between races. In fact, this is one of the few passives that at least offers something to make up for not getting those huge buffs and other races need more of that for various roles, definitely not to just take it away all together.

In the end, if they do anything to ding this passive, then no matter what they replace it with or how little they adjust it, then they deserve equal damage buffs to what any of the high end races have now. Because if you don't get the same extra damage a high elf or dark elf gets in magicka, or the same buffs a redguard gets in stam, and you don't get some other side benefit on the level they get, then it is not balanced. Getting enough stam from a mag pot to dodge roll one more time or block, or a little health to take one more hit is the only thing that really makes up for all you give up in playing the race vs races that get huge state and damage buffs. (and even with players calling the passive OP - you still don't see people choosing to play it in PvE over redguard for stam, or high-elf or dunmer for mag - so I guess it's not that OP - and if you have a problem that is PvP only, then you should look at battle spirit, not screwing up PvE balance) And this goes for all the other races too. (I know Nord needs the most love).

I really think the best thing for balancing this passive and the game would be to take another hard look at resources. Not saying they have to go back to the cost reduction they had before, but if you lowered the cost of skills across the board by a hand picked amount, then every build, every player and every race would benefit and passives that offer resources would become less powerful without a nerf. And god forbid, the game might even be more fun to play like it used to be.

You really put together my own sentiments quite well. I have been playing an Argonian since the start of the game and that race has gone through so many different iterations, and worse still my original Argonians class went through some very major changes. The amount of times I have COMPLETELY changed that build are phenomenal (Ruining my Tavas is yet another example of this). ESO needs to know when to stop. I love playing Argonians as well and I have experience between something like a Dunmer DK vs. an Argonian one and I agree with you the differences are clear. In my view the greater issue is Imperials and Nords (which are more or less the same) and get shown up by Argonian nowadays. That is not Imperial/Nord's fault by the change in the design of the system that made max stats less important. The nerf to Health regeneration also significantly hurt Nord, Orc, and Khajiit. In my view Health regeneration is not high enough, particularly on the races that have it, and the Red Diamond passive is not good enough.

Notice that the maximum stats on an Argonian are not as good as any other tanking races but they make up for it with the capacity to ACTIVELY recover. The suggestions a lot of people have made are really going to ruin this race, which seems a really stupid thing to do during the big Argonian patch. I for one hope that the Developers are not so stupid that they ruin Argonian, but rather think about how they can enhance and make more useful the other tank races. I believe this to be the greater issue. Nords could stand to have either higher health regeneration or a 10% Stamina. Imperials should get red diamond converted into health regen or an adrenaline rush type mechanic -or- they could go with something to convey that Lucky/Jack of All Trades theme Imperials had and give them a +Crit or +Magic. Honestly the DD races have no cause to complain about Argonian.

ayu_fever

i am against nerfs.
they should buff other things to make other choices relevant.

BUT... given how things have gone the last few years, something thats really good will get nerfed.
IMO the resourceful passive is very useful and maybe they should tune it down, as it does kinda become the “win button” for sustain issues and it has become a crutch for whiny punks who are too entitled to heavy attack.

i do have 1 argonian (shes a warden trials tank or healer. i change CP gear and such depending on my mood for the role i play her), but the warden sustain is enough on its own. if resourceful did get gutted i wouldnt notice or complain because warden master race. netch and heavy attacks are your friends! learn to manage resources better.

however it would be hard to nerf the lizard racials because the lizard fans/mains try to get other races nerfed too even if just for spite.

MartiniDaniels

ayu_fever wrote: »

i am against nerfs.
they should buff other things to make other choices relevant.

BUT... given how things have gone the last few years, something thats really good will get nerfed.
IMO the resourceful passive is very useful and maybe they should tune it down, as it does kinda become the “win button” for sustain issues and it has become a crutch for whiny punks who are too entitled to heavy attack.

i do have 1 argonian (shes a warden trials tank or healer. i change CP gear and such depending on my mood for the role i play her), but the warden sustain is enough on its own. if resourceful did get gutted i wouldnt notice or complain because warden master race. netch and heavy attacks are your friends! learn to manage resources better.

however it would be hard to nerf the lizard racials because the lizard fans/mains try to get other races nerfed too even if just for spite.

ZOS wasn’t afraid to nerf shields used by 75% of playerbase, so don’t hope they will hesitate to rebalance argonian used by 10% of exploiters. Your only chance is that rebalance will be good and with useful perks which are relative to current meta.

rabidmyers

too many fake argonians who play them for the passives and not because of the race, nerfs will weed em out