So I just had an epiphany about tanking(or the lack of it)

Gulnagel

First of all tanks and healers are always mentioned as "support roles" the definition of support is: assistance or a thing that bears the weight of something.

Damage dealers are never mentioned as "support" even tho there is a holy trinity tank, healer and damage dealer there is some underlying acceptance that damage dealer is the "normal" even tho tanks are needed and very rare, so is healers and for hard content they need eatchother, they are equally in demand, yet only 1 gets the "normal" status and the other two stand in the corner as "support".

What really gets to me is the fact that not only are tanks and healers in demand - especially tanks, but when you choose to go the "support route" you automatically say: I've just taken away the enjoyment of doing overland solo content and questing, I now do damage like a wet noodle and the only meaningfully existence I have is to be of use to spoiled glass-cannons in dungeons and trials and if I'm lucky I might get a damage dealer that do more than just lightattack

It goes beyond me how poorly and utterly horrid this game caters to tanks and healers and it's an imploding system since you get dps queuing as tanks, they end upp in dlc content and ruin it for the damage dealers that actually waited 20-60 min for their spot. Usually the group disbands because you all know it when you are in a PUG and you have to fill a tank spot, it can take a while and a few kicking fake ones that joins.

What I'm implying here is; I have so much understanding now for the lack of tanks and healers in this game, I played healers and tanks in other mmos and when you where a tank you felt like a king. Never had any issues with overland content and you felt needed.

I've tried every role in this game and as a damage dealer I've had the most fun since I also enjoy questing and there are so many damage dealers that can't put out the numbers that's why I started one because my first character was a templar healer back when eso released and after a while I just got tired of the low dps Pugs, started a sorcerer and carried a lot of players through vet dungeons, soloed every worldboss, got praised for my "high deeps". As a healer I've never felt whole, I felt dependant on others to enjoy the game, and soon no one needed healers anyway.

Don't get me started on tanking since the attributes need to be even more balanced = no dps at all, if you are not in a group you might aswell log into another character since killing a troll takes longer than killing a WB solo on a damage dealer

And the worst part is it costs gold to respec, a damage dealer never have to respec CP or change skills, you go from trial to solo and questing. A "support role" need to switch skills, gear and CP.

Of course the majority of players play damage dealers(or try to)

I play on console so there is no quick swapping gear or pre-saved settings. If that would exsist for "support roles" and be free or charge there would be a better balance - more tanks and healers.

I'm just so disappointed..

Royaji

There are no tanks, healers or DDs in solo content. Those roles make sense only in context of a group. So why would you try to be a tank while soloing? Who are you tanking for?

ESO has great build freedom. And it is not hard to switch your full support tank build to something more suitable for solo in (brain dead easy) overland. And please, stop with that story about respecing attributes, CPs and skills. You do not need any of that.

1) take off your heavy armor and sword and shield, put on the most simple DD set - I'm talking Hundings/Spriggans or even Night Mother's (they are stupidly cheap, even CP 150 works).
2) drop tri-food for max stam + stam recovery food
3) slot some damage skills. Hail, rending, claw/sub assault/whatever. Even slot a two-hander and spam Dizzying. All of that is more than enough. And skillpoints are abundant in the game, just grab some skyshards.

Now you can have a 20k DPS build. You will melt through everything in overland. Is it really that hard?

Kikke

My tanks just got a set of crafted dps gear when they do solo stuff.
Same with my healers...

jrgray93

If your healer isn't doing damage, they're doing it wrong.

AcadianPaladin

Healer. My main is a magplar healer and I love her. Though she is spec’d and equipped as a healer, she benefits from the fact that spell damage (to boost her heals) also contributes to her damage. Secondly, several of her heal/support skills do ‘incidental damage’ or boost damage (shards, purifying light, elemental drain, etc). Therefore, she’s capable of enough dps to comfortably run solo quest/overland content. And, naturally, as a healer she is pretty durable. So, no problem there. Yet, there is a shortage of healers. I think this is more due to the nature of the role rather than specific mechanics/ability shortcomings. The reason my main is a healer is because she has a very nurturing/supportive nature. She prides herself on being a good ‘follower’ and reacting to what her group is doing. She is never going to impress anyone with her awesome damage. In fact, when she is doing well, her group rarely realizes the value she adds with her buffs/debuffs/HoTs/Area heals/Burst heals and even some dps. Yet if someone in her group dies (for any reason) she readily accepts the blame since her job is to keep everyone alive. This role suits her to a tee but is clearly a path less chosen.

Tank. I run a DK main tank as an alt. His dps is abysmal but he is darn near unkillable. He has been a main tank since his tutorial. Yes, every individual wolf or mudcrap gets their half dozen light attack to kill. Though I accept this, he is not as ‘exciting’ or fast to play in solo quest content. What could help would be allowing skills from the one hand and shield skill to scale based on health rather than stamina. Simply boosting his dps from ~4k to ~9k this way would make solo questing much smoother. I worry though what such a change might mean to PvP though since during my rare visits to Cyrodiil I seem to see plenty of very scary heavy armor/s&b pvp monsters already. I also think tanking requires a certain mentality (like healing) but very different. My tank wants to lead, initiate pulls, control the battlefield and gets frustrated when a group thwarts that by having squishies open fire early and creating a mess to ‘salvage’. He is also routinely frustrated by boss/mob mechanics in dungeons that seem designed to thwart tanks and make them feel useless (bosses that ignore taunt for example). When all is going well in a dungeon, it can be an exhilarating feeling of almost godlike power but there is plenty working against that. I am not surprised that tanks are so rare and those who do choose tank often avoid pugging.

DPS. Sexy, fun and abundantly supported by almost everything about the game. Like OP, I’m not surprised that dps comprise the vast majority of character types.

Linaleah

the problem with lack of tanks is not lack of damage in overland, as it was already pointed out - slotting a few damage skills, solves that problem. the problem is the same as its in every other multiplayer game that relies on trinity. its a thankless job. you have all the responsibility and none of the glory.

mind you, some people do enjoy the role, but they are few and far in between.

BejaProphet

What was the epiphany?

richo262

I think if they scrapped the Attribute system and upped the enchants on body armor that would make swapping configurations much easier.

So 7 Body pieces of Stam = Current 7 Body pieces of Stam + 64 points.

That way, changing sets / enchants on sets can equate to the same output but it is an easy swap on the fly.

Changing from Healer to DPS or Tank to DPS could just be the items in your inventory and skills you might have rather than mess about with the attribute system.

The next step from that would be an armory to store armor.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

richo262 wrote: »

I think if they scrapped the Attribute system and upped the enchants on body armor that would make swapping configurations much easier.

So 7 Body pieces of Stam = Current 7 Body pieces of Stam + 64 points.

That way, changing sets / enchants on sets can equate to the same output but it is an easy swap on the fly.

Changing from Healer to DPS or Tank to DPS could just be the items in your inventory and skills you might have rather than mess about with the attribute system.

The next step from that would be an armory to store armor.

You don't really need to worry about attributes, just set them to health the make up the difference in food. There is a food that is max stat/regen for both Stam and mag. Though i don't really see the need to change food, I recently was completing the main story to unlock the passive for filling soul gems on weapon skill kills on my full time tank, with ~36k health and 20k Stam in ebon/alkosh/lord warden, 6 heavy 1 medium, and I all did is swap out my ice staff for a two hander, then changed my bar to a dps one(flame of Oblivion, rally, reverse slice, brawler, dizzying swing, Dawnbreaker). ended up with a around 2.5k weapon damage and 38% weapon critical and stuff died in a reasonable amount of time. No cp change or anything.

FrancisCrawford

There is no serious problem swapping between healing and damage dealing. Attribute points go into magicka either way. The same champion point allocation can get you within 10% of perfect DPS and 10% of perfect HPS alike. Many of the same sets are good for both roles. Etc.

Many tank builds, however, do call for piling attribute points into health. That's a bigger hit to damage. Also, a tank makes the same small damage sacrifices in blue champion points that a healer does.

Tasear

jrgray93 wrote: »

If your healer isn't doing damage, they're doing it wrong.

What are the damage dealers doing then? O..o

Thalidar

Tasear wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

If your healer isn't doing damage, they're doing it wrong.

What are the damage dealers doing then? O..o

Like most dungeons I run when I pug with my tank and healers,they're at the back using a bow and arrow or light attacking with a staff....

Bhaji

I use a build swapping addon like https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1812-AlphaGear2.html or https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1911-DressingRoomReborn.html,

my DK tank currently runs 5 x https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Fortified+Brass+Set,
5 x https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Ebon+Armory+Set and https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Blood+Spawn+Set

2 x sword and shield

Giving health 55k+ and resistances 30k

Then swap to
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Hunding's+Rage+Set
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Thunderbug's+Carpace+Set
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Selene+Set or https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Ilambris+Set

with Greatsword on front bar and bow on backbar for solo content

And watch the groups of mobs melt away

The addons allow me to try different combinations, and to make dungeon specific builds that can be swapped via a hot key.

There are lots of build combinations to try and the build swapping addons make it easy to assemble combinations to try according to your preferred play style

Hope this helps

drkfrontiers

Damage Dealers are "supporting" Healers and Tanks... by killing stuff better.

ArchMikem

Yup. My poor tank basically exists exclusively for group content. I have figured out a build where all i have to do is swap gear and maybe my mundus stone and i have enough damage to make overland questing not tedious. No more spending gold on respecs. But even then i don't have a desire to quest on that character. She exists because i wanted to experience what Tanking was like.

I DID have this StamKnight poison dps which was really fun once upon a time, but then ZOS nerfed sets and skills and CP stats and i trashed her. I tried rebuilding it with my Tank character but it wasnt the same. I actually miss those days.

arun_rajputb16_ESO

I've said it before, over and over, and I'll say it again. There are too few tanks because it's, for the majority, boring. I've spoken to dozens of people that tanked in the past and the overwhelming reason they binned their tank is because it's boring - most common comment is "I got bored just having to go around poking things".

I'll get flamed again for saying it, but have an aoe taunt and you free up tanks to do more thus making it more enjoyable.

The dlc vet dungeons and vet trials are fun as they are for a tank, but that's a small % of the group content.

The sets have a psychological effect too - we're forced to use sets that aren't necessarily the best for us but really good for everyone else. Makes the tank not feel like it's an important role but there to help the others; a side part. E.g. ebon armoury set... It's not got the best stats for a tank per say but you have to have it. Or Alkosh... It's still a medium armour set and gives you the slayer buff which is useless for a tank.

I know people, including myself, that have had a healer since day one and continue to actively and regularly heal. But I don't know anyone that's had a tank since then and continues to regularly tank - I only do the pledges for transmute crystals. There is a good reason for that... It's boring and unrewarding.

This won't get addressed because as soon as tanking is mentioned in a thread, the very few that do enjoy running around poking enemies come in and, understandably, defend it.

Royaji

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

This won't get addressed because as soon as tanking is mentioned in a thread, the very few that do understand that running around poking enemies is not how you tank in ESO come in and, understandably, defend it.

Fixed that for you.

malicia

Personally I don't feel that tanking is boring. Keeping up buffs, debuffs, controlling the battlefield - if I'm tired and low on focus I rather join the DD stack. I can cause less problems there than as tank.

I think what puts many people off tanking is not that it is boring but how exposed it is. Mess up as a DD and you get ressed. Mess up as a tank and you often wipe the group.

There's a certain anomity in the DD stack that a tank can never have.

Both roles are fun and interesting, but a tank is permanently in the spotlight.

VaranisArano

I love the battlefield control aspect of tanking in ESO. If people want tanking to be like it is in other games, I can see why they dislike it. Taunt is important, but so is buffing, debuffing, and crowd control.

I was fortunate to learn to tank in a relatively low pressure situation by tanking for my IRL friends as we learned the dungeons. So by the time I joined the regular population, I knew what I was doing as a tank.

MartiniDaniels

Overland content is so easy so you may just snap on molag kena or tremorscale and la weave your puncture and everything will die reasonably fast.

And it’s interesting to play as tank since aside from vet trials you may try ton of builds and you are not pingeonholed to stack one stat as pve dps or healers. You have important role to be a shepherd to mobs gathering them for sacrifice and you are actually a group leader, you are running in front, you decide initiation, you decide if you wanna bother with small
mobs which must be nuked without taunting or to help your weak dos teammates. You decide to slot ranged interrupt or not, you decide will it be hm or not etc etc etc

Jimmy

@Gulnagel Good post.

Gulnagel

I've read what many of you have said, and to break it down it comes down to this; overland content, so easy, justput on DPS sets that you have to carry around and just switch out the skills.

What I am hearing is this; As a tank you have to accept that you need to carry around sets that take up your inventoryspace and you need more skillpoints on abbillities to switch around instead of for example - putting them in crafting. You are a class in demand, but you need to accept that you have to manually change gear and skills and still be weaker than a lightattacking dps in relequen for solo play.

I'm going to go out if my way and guess that the people suggesting this are experienced players, that have alot of hours into this game. But what if you are new or an average joe? First impressions last, how can a new player know that he needs to carry around gear that takes up inventory space and the only gold he makes is from questing, it costs to upgrade your bag. Skillpoints are easy to get but tedious to constantly switch out inbetween group content and on top of that you are weaker in solo content.

Even tho you are a role in the highest demand, you get the short stick.

It's like going to a restaurant with 2 friends, we sit down by the table and the waiter takes their order, not mine, and the friends say "just go to the counter and order" and then my glass is dirty "just bring your own dishbrush, jeez what is the problem?" and when it's time to pay I have to pay more even tho I had it harder and more tedious.

Is that fun? Is it rewarding? Will I go back to that restaurant?

It is not about what I can do, it's about what I shouldn't have to do.

Salvas_Aren

Not to mention that all chars get raised as DDs.

Raising a tank as tank from the start is so much harder. Those who try it will regret it, those who go for DD in the first place have little intent to change anything.

AcadianPaladin

I raised my tank as a full main DK tank right of the box. It was somewhat tedious but not too bad - mostly a mental adjustment of slowly killing trash who could not even scratch me. I agree with OP. My tank has a mindset and I know I would struggle to get my head around flipping him from dps to tank for soloquestibits. I struggle enough when a character only has one job/set of gear & skills. Lol.

arun_rajputb16_ESO

malicia wrote: »

Personally I don't feel that tanking is boring. Keeping up buffs, debuffs, controlling the battlefield - if I'm tired and low on focus I rather join the DD stack. I can cause less problems there than as tank.

I think what puts many people off tanking is not that it is boring but how exposed it is. Mess up as a DD and you get ressed. Mess up as a tank and you often wipe the group.

There's a certain anomity in the DD stack that a tank can never have.

Both roles are fun and interesting, but a tank is permanently in the spotlight.

Honestly and seriously... Ask people that don't tank or did tank and don't anymore. I have, for 4 years and overwhelmingly the answer is "it's boring".

AcadianPaladin

Regarding tanks being boring. Though I don't agree I can certainly see that some would feel that way when running solo/quest content. When tanking for a group vs significant foes (+500K hp) my tank has never ever been bored. The trouble is that his fun meter only pegs when in that mode (tanking bosses) which tends to limit what he does.

John_Falstaff

@Gulnagel , long story short; yes, it's how you describe. People did point out, and rightly so, that (I'm not saying it's the only or even best state of things, but it's how it is) in solo overland, there are no roles. Role - tank, healer, dd - exist within a group context, and overland, you're just a character without defined role, and it's up to you how you solve solo overland tasks and kill overland mobs. Yes, killing mobs takes some damage, but you know, it's game about fighting bad things, and outside of group, there's nobody else to fight them but your own self. It's up to you if you bash them to death, heal them until they pop, or smack them with something sharp and heavy. Because outside, nobody is tank, nobody is dd, and nobody is healer, they're one man (or woman) orchestra. Overland is designed in such a way that it doesn't need 50k DPS to be enjoyable.

Mind, no build can afford same set of gear for everything. I'm not complaining that I have to carry 'sustain & survival' gear for arenas or general exploration, while for a dungeon I'll put on gear that makes me much closer to a glass cannon. I'm not complaining that I have to swap gear to bump health higher for vMA because inside arena, I'm not a damage dealer (which implies I also need healer and tank to complement me), I have to be a self-sufficient thing, a bit of everything.

arun_rajputb16_ESO

Royaji wrote: »

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

This won't get addressed because as soon as tanking is mentioned in a thread, the very few that do understand that running around poking enemies is not how you tank in ESO come in and, understandably, defend it.

Fixed that for you.

Okay so according to you, taunting is not tanki...... Ah forget it. You single taunt "battlefield control" tank fan boys!

Protossyder

An idea: Just add a npc companion to each zone (that disappears, when you enter a city/dungeon(trial ofc) who helps you during combat and deals more dmg the higher your resistances are (and maybe negative correlation to your weapon/spellpower, idk). Some skills are aready recognized as healing/tank/dd specific skills, they could also take that into account (if you have tank/healer specific skills slotted, the companion deals more dmg)

kathandira

Gulnagel wrote: »

snip

What I like is even as a Tank or Healer, you can still get enough skill points to pick up some DPS Skills if you want to play solo.

You might not be able to completely plow through things as we as a dedicated Dps character, but you will be perfectly fine if you farm some skyshards, finish a some public dungeons, and do some main story quests to get the extra skill points you need to invest into 3-4 DPS skills. After that, crafy or pick up some overland gear, or some dungeon or trials gear and build an alt set to ensure you can handle yourself solo.

Or, create multiple characters if you don't want to split a character up like that. This game is way too flexible for this concern to be a reality.

kathandira

Royaji wrote: »

There are no tanks, healers or DDs in solo content. Those roles make sense only in context of a group. So why would you try to be a tank while soloing? Who are you tanking for?

ESO has great build freedom. And it is not hard to switch your full support tank build to something more suitable for solo in (brain dead easy) overland. And please, stop with that story about respecing attributes, CPs and skills. You do not need any of that.

1) take off your heavy armor and sword and shield, put on the most simple DD set - I'm talking Hundings/Spriggans or even Night Mother's (they are stupidly cheap, even CP 150 works).
2) drop tri-food for max stam + stam recovery food
3) slot some damage skills. Hail, rending, claw/sub assault/whatever. Even slot a two-hander and spam Dizzying. All of that is more than enough. And skillpoints are abundant in the game, just grab some skyshards.

Now you can have a 20k DPS build. You will melt through everything in overland. Is it really that hard?

^ Yeah, what they said.