The combat devs of this game are the single worst I have ever seen.

killahsin

idk wrote: »

Ironically Zos has hired one of the best players in the game, one that often gave critical feedback to Zos openly via his content creation. Via the forums I had seen he no longer raids at the high level anymore and seems to not be experiencing the latest mechanics in CR.

Seems though with the heavy weight addition things did not change.

kargen27 wrote: »

If this is the worst ever why are you still playing? If you are not playing why do you care?

Because it is go back to kindergarten with games like WoW and FF or stay here.

While Zos is tasked with trying to manage a much more complicated system than more MMORPGs have with all the skill line choices we all have access to, they do seem to lack a vision which seems to be the reason Zos makes such heavy handed changes.

I still say the issue is clearly at the top. The game launched over 4 years ago in a barely playable state which was clearly due to organizational issues and a lack of focus/vision.

We have seen very heavy handed changes starting with 1.6 through Morrowind and to this recent update. Each seemingly based on an incoherent vision.

But most of us stay because the alternatives are worse for now.

this is such a hilarious way of attacking someone for being employed by ZoS. Gillium is a mechanics god and suggesting because he now works for ZoS he is now 'out of the loop' is a rage against the machine reaction. ZoS employees are very well aware of how this game works on every level from pve to pvp. Some of the best players work for ZoS and you and others who suggest otherwise are rediculous. What you want is 2 seperate games one that evolves to a point where everything is 'ok' enough to be dumped on the public. The problem is historically in MMOs when this approach has been done when the changes are put into the games the community just abandons the product. As such the design doctrine has been the baby steps meta rotation ever since. Both blizzard and ZoS do this very well. And as always both communities complain whole heartedly about it but it is still the best way to iterate. Get over it.

iiYuki

Its clear they dont play their own game when they come out with comments like:
- "We want players to make interesting choices when making damage shield builds." [to make healers required / PVP nerf]
- "...another part of the reason that Nightblade DPS was too high" [compared with other classes DPS too high in a PVE game]
- "DPS was higher than intended" [compared with other classes, DPS too high in a PVE game]
- " Previously, if you didn’t use the Feral Guardian Ultimate, your damage was lower than other classes" [30% nerf instead of 30% buff to other ultimates]
- "providing too much power relative to other available choices" [so we nerfed it instead of buffing the other choices]

I don't think ZO$ realise that there will always be a BIS set, always be a best ultimate, best skill, best rotation, best class etc and there will always be people who follow these guides and setups to reach the top, do the best DPS possible, be the best healer and tank. honestly think ZO$ should just go with an idea and stick to it and make the class system rigid.

Hotdog_23

I think they are doing the best they can, after all they are human like me and you. So they are entitled to messed up. ESO is a big game with lots of parts. They at least are trying maybe not how or where you or I would like but at least the game is not static.

coletas

Balanced would be if me and my opponent would have to press the Q key just only one time instead of 10 times me and 12 him just to drink a potion. I dont mind playing vs any player if the Game reacts ok, but how is possible (or fun) to play when no skills working how and when intended?

killahsin

iiYuki wrote: »

Its clear they dont play their own game when they come out with comments like:
- "We want players to make interesting choices when making damage shield builds." [to make healers required / PVP nerf]
- "...another part of the reason that Nightblade DPS was too high" [compared with other classes DPS too high in a PVE game]
- "DPS was higher than intended" [compared with other classes, DPS too high in a PVE game]
- " Previously, if you didn’t use the Feral Guardian Ultimate, your damage was lower than other classes" [30% nerf instead of 30% buff to other ultimates]
- "providing too much power relative to other available choices" [so we nerfed it instead of buffing the other choices]

I don't think ZO$ realise that there will always be a BIS set, always be a best ultimate, best skill, best rotation, best class etc and there will always be people who follow these guides and setups to reach the top, do the best DPS possible, be the best healer and tank. honestly think ZO$ should just go with an idea and stick to it and make the class system rigid.

this is the exact example i am refering to in my above post. ZoS absolutely realizes there will be BIS and always the best ultimate and always the best this and that etc because they design these metas and then players evolve and max the metas and then zos adjusts the metas up or down based on the best players and the worst players. Had you personally been one of these players you would KNOW this. Yet here you are.

Vapirko

idk wrote: »

Ironically Zos has hired one of the best players in the game, one that often gave critical feedback to Zos openly via his content creation. Via the forums I had seen he no longer raids at the high level anymore and seems to not be experiencing the latest mechanics in CR.

Seems though with the heavy weight addition things did not change.

kargen27 wrote: »

If this is the worst ever why are you still playing? If you are not playing why do you care?

Because it is go back to kindergarten with games like WoW and FF or stay here.

While Zos is tasked with trying to manage a much more complicated system than more MMORPGs have with all the skill line choices we all have access to, they do seem to lack a vision which seems to be the reason Zos makes such heavy handed changes.

I still say the issue is clearly at the top. The game launched over 4 years ago in a barely playable state which was clearly due to organizational issues and a lack of focus/vision.

We have seen very heavy handed changes starting with 1.6 through Morrowind and to this recent update. Each seemingly based on an incoherent vision.

But most of us stay because the alternatives are worse for now.

People should stop blaming things on Gilliame. The guy gave us all a *** ton of his time and energy over the years and improved the gaming experience of many. And understandably he made the choice to move on in his career. That all aside he’s been working there like what, a year now? It’s highly unlikely he even has all that much say. For all we know he may in fact be responsible for some of the better changes. And even if he does have a lot of say he’s still part of the same team that’s been doing this the same way for years. Anyway just seems pretty disrespectful and jerky.

Zer0oo

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ironically Zos has hired one of the best players in the game, one that often gave critical feedback to Zos openly via his content creation. Via the forums I had seen he no longer raids at the high level anymore and seems to not be experiencing the latest mechanics in CR.

Seems though with the heavy weight addition things did not change.

kargen27 wrote: »

If this is the worst ever why are you still playing? If you are not playing why do you care?

Because it is go back to kindergarten with games like WoW and FF or stay here.

While Zos is tasked with trying to manage a much more complicated system than more MMORPGs have with all the skill line choices we all have access to, they do seem to lack a vision which seems to be the reason Zos makes such heavy handed changes.

I still say the issue is clearly at the top. The game launched over 4 years ago in a barely playable state which was clearly due to organizational issues and a lack of focus/vision.

We have seen very heavy handed changes starting with 1.6 through Morrowind and to this recent update. Each seemingly based on an incoherent vision.

But most of us stay because the alternatives are worse for now.

People should stop blaming things on Gilliame. The guy gave us all a *** ton of his time and energy over the years and improved the gaming experience of many. And understandably he made the choice to move on in his career. That all aside he’s been working there like what, a year now? It’s highly unlikely he even has all that much say. For all we know he may in fact be responsible for some of the better changes. And even if he does have a lot of say he’s still part of the same team that’s been doing this the same way for years. Anyway just seems pretty disrespectful and jerky.

Many saw in the hiring a big chance that the combat changes will get better but the last update was one of the worst the game has ever seen. I really hope the will get their sh*** together and improve the game till then the best would be to take a break from this game

killahsin

@vapirko it's more the case design doctrines in games like this are generally 6 months or more at a time over the course of one iterative process to reach a long term design change goal. It is extremly hard for a player inside the ecosphere to see the vision of the sphere as a whole as such this type of disenfranchisement can take hold of players, especially in meta games that combine nerf design styles. Ebb and flow principles of balancing the war with power creep vs power reduction while also moving forward in iterative design. There is a reason i decided to build rollercoasters and theme parks instead of making virtual games. Because managing metas is a headache.

red_emu

It is like brand new game every time. Every 3 months your class becomes weaker and more useless.

Few years down the line, we will all be so nerfed that all you will need it one light attack to kill another player.

Vapirko

killahsin wrote: »

@vapirko it's more the case design doctrines in games like this are generally 6 months or more at a time over the course of one iterative process to reach a long term design change goal. It is extremly hard for a player inside the ecosphere to see the vision of the sphere as a whole as such this type of disenfranchisement can take hold of players, especially in meta games that combine nerf design styles. Ebb and flow principles of balancing the war with power creep vs power reduction while also moving forward in iterative design. There is a reason i decided to build rollercoasters and theme parks instead of making virtual games. Because managing metas is a headache.

Well don’t get me wrong, I think that the overall direction of ZOS towards PvP in particular has been remarkably short sighted, even taking into account how difficult it must be. I’m just saying it’s not fair to keep dragging Gilliame into this. But yes I’m sure it’s a headache to keep everyone happy.

killahsin

Vapirko wrote: »

killahsin wrote: »

@vapirko it's more the case design doctrines in games like this are generally 6 months or more at a time over the course of one iterative process to reach a long term design change goal. It is extremly hard for a player inside the ecosphere to see the vision of the sphere as a whole as such this type of disenfranchisement can take hold of players, especially in meta games that combine nerf design styles. Ebb and flow principles of balancing the war with power creep vs power reduction while also moving forward in iterative design. There is a reason i decided to build rollercoasters and theme parks instead of making virtual games. Because managing metas is a headache.

Well don’t get me wrong, I think that the overall direction of ZOS towards PvP in particular has been remarkably short sighted, even taking into account how difficult it must be. I’m just saying it’s not fair to keep dragging Gilliame into this. But yes I’m sure it’s a headache to keep everyone happy.

Thankfully the game is not designed around PvP but rather PVE Solo-Group-Raid and RvR utility and more recently 4v4v4.

kargen27

idk wrote: »

Ironically Zos has hired one of the best players in the game, one that often gave critical feedback to Zos openly via his content creation. Via the forums I had seen he no longer raids at the high level anymore and seems to not be experiencing the latest mechanics in CR.

Seems though with the heavy weight addition things did not change.

kargen27 wrote: »

If this is the worst ever why are you still playing? If you are not playing why do you care?

Because it is go back to kindergarten with games like WoW and FF or stay here.

While Zos is tasked with trying to manage a much more complicated system than more MMORPGs have with all the skill line choices we all have access to, they do seem to lack a vision which seems to be the reason Zos makes such heavy handed changes.

I still say the issue is clearly at the top. The game launched over 4 years ago in a barely playable state which was clearly due to organizational issues and a lack of focus/vision.

We have seen very heavy handed changes starting with 1.6 through Morrowind and to this recent update. Each seemingly based on an incoherent vision.

But most of us stay because the alternatives are worse for now.

Well that kind of contradicts the OP. If the alternatives are worse then just probably the combat devs are not the worst ever. Worst ever means no matter what other choice you make it would be better. Obviously that isn't the case. Sure there is room for improvement but we gotta be honest if there was better we would be moving on. Well some of us would anyway.

Kadoin

I honestly might prefer One Tamriel and the "Proctacalypse" over this patch for PvP. It may be the worst time to ever wear light armor. I want the devs to go to Cyrodil in light armor without max resist and see what happens.

EDIT: They should live stream it too!

Vapirko

killahsin wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

killahsin wrote: »

@vapirko it's more the case design doctrines in games like this are generally 6 months or more at a time over the course of one iterative process to reach a long term design change goal. It is extremly hard for a player inside the ecosphere to see the vision of the sphere as a whole as such this type of disenfranchisement can take hold of players, especially in meta games that combine nerf design styles. Ebb and flow principles of balancing the war with power creep vs power reduction while also moving forward in iterative design. There is a reason i decided to build rollercoasters and theme parks instead of making virtual games. Because managing metas is a headache.

Well don’t get me wrong, I think that the overall direction of ZOS towards PvP in particular has been remarkably short sighted, even taking into account how difficult it must be. I’m just saying it’s not fair to keep dragging Gilliame into this. But yes I’m sure it’s a headache to keep everyone happy.

Thankfully the game is not designed around PvP but rather PVE Solo-Group-Raid and RvR utility and more recently 4v4v4.

Well as many others have pointed out, PvP was in fact a main selling point for this game at release and for some time afterwards. A lot of people come into this game thinking that PvPers should just shut up because it’s a PvE game. But that is and has been a misconception it seems. PvP still represents a fair portion of players, especially dedicated players and deserves more than it gets.

Sylosi

ak_pvp wrote: »

They are completely and utterly incapable of making a balanced game.

That you expect a game like ESO to be balanced simply illustrates you have unrealistic expectations and don't really understand balance in games.

killahsin

Sylosi wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

They are completely and utterly incapable of making a balanced game.

That you expect a game like ESO to be balanced simply illustrates you have unrealistic expectations and don't really understand balance in games.

This is a balancing act in and of itself. Balancing what the gameplay loops are vs what the gameloop is percieved to be.

ScardyFox

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I think they are doing the best they can, after all they are human like me and you. So they are entitled to messed up.

If I "messed up" as much as they do with such alarming frequency I would have been fired ages ago and sued several times over now. This level of mismanagement is chronic.

killahsin

thankfully mmo design is all about making the most of what players perceive as mess ups.

Elsonso

While the OP doesn't have anything I can quote, it is not completely wrong.

I am sure that the Combat Team works very hard, and has lots of data and figures that support every change that they make, but there has been a problem on the Combat Team since the beginning. I don't know what the problem is, to be precise about it, but there is something "off" about what they are doing.

In the past, I have noticed that they seem to be directionless. Lately, they seem to be trying to standardize things, but I would have certainly hoped that was something they started with, not something worked in 4 years later. I fear that what this resulted in was "spreadsheet-driven change", where they make a change on a spreadsheet or whiteboard that shows wonderful things, then try to figure out a way to wedge that into the game somehow. Lacking a clear plan, with limits, we get strange things popping up. Some of these are approved of by the community, so I won't mention specifics, but popularity does not make it fit into the puzzle any better.

I don't think they are incompetent, and I don't think they ignore what the players say, but something is off. The best that I can come up with is that they don't have a plan that they feel comfortable sticking to, so they keep tossing the plan out and making a new one. They seem disorganized. Flibbertigibbet. Scatterbrained. Lacking in concentration.

I am sure they are none of those things, but even when reading the Developer Comments in the patch notes, it seems that way. My hope is that @ZOS_RobGarrett sees this and is helping fix it. Maybe it is his hand that is driving the "standardization" work.

I do want to add one thing though. It is a puzzle, as many have noticed, and a lot of people forget that whatever suggestions that they have need to fit into the puzzle. ZOS "listening" to people is as much of a problem as ZOS not listening to people, if they don't have a master architecture that defines what pieces can be in the puzzle. It is that last part that I don't think is quite solidly there.

eliisra

I've seen worse a few times to be honest. But imbalance and extremely broken builds is ofc a huge problem after every major update in ESO. So while wouldn't say it's the worse, it's definitely top 3 in terms of bad balance and combat changes.

But at least in ESO, it's pretty doable to adapt and apply current most broken and unbalanced builds without to much effort.

In other games, it's usually harder, more time-consuming and more expensive to re-roll and change gear and build. So when combat changes absolutely ruins your build+class in many other mmorpgs, you're screwed if casual.

In ESO you can always join the dark side. But not entirely sure if that's a good thing though, when like 80% of the PvP population is running full cheese for months

killahsin

lordrichter wrote: »

While the OP doesn't have anything I can quote, it is not completely wrong.

I am sure that the Combat Team works very hard, and has lots of data and figures that support every change that they make, but there has been a problem on the Combat Team since the beginning. I don't know what the problem is, to be precise about it, but there is something "off" about what they are doing.

In the past, I have noticed that they seem to be directionless. Lately, they seem to be trying to standardize things, but I would have certainly hoped that was something they started with, not something worked in 4 years later. I fear that what this resulted in was "spreadsheet-driven change", where they make a change on a spreadsheet or whiteboard that shows wonderful things, then try to figure out a way to wedge that into the game somehow. Lacking a clear plan, with limits, we get strange things popping up. Some of these are approved of by the community, so I won't mention specifics, but popularity does not make it fit into the puzzle any better.

I don't think they are incompetent, and I don't think they ignore what the players say, but something is off. The best that I can come up with is that they don't have a plan that they feel comfortable sticking to, so they keep tossing the plan out and making a new one. They seem disorganized. Flibbertigibbet. Scatterbrained. Lacking in concentration.

I am sure they are none of those things, but even when reading the Developer Comments in the patch notes, it seems that way. My hope is that @ZOS_RobGarrett sees this and is helping fix it. Maybe it is his hand that is driving the "standardization" work.

I do want to add one thing though. It is a puzzle, as many have noticed, and a lot of people forget that whatever suggestions that they have need to fit into the puzzle. ZOS "listening" to people is as much of a problem as ZOS not listening to people, if they don't have a master architecture that defines what pieces can be in the puzzle. It is that last part that I don't think is quite solidly there.

This is a post i agree with in principle. The team needs to broadcast the long term goals better and why they are iterating the way they are at various stages. There also will be fundamental issues with giving a view like this to the community though is that the theoretical maximums will abuse this insight even further. In the og days ZoS did this to a degree with the top tier guilds but the community complained about that. And so the silence began, now the approach is the reps and the community is now complaining about that as well. It is a fundamental no win situation. What I hope is that Garret can bring a better set of over-reaching design principle to the table that change the way in which the end user perceives the changes which is by no means an easy task. As far as the standardization of things that has been ongoing for almost all 4 years now as the players have cried that into being. The homogenization of the player base is not something i like at all in a game that has RvR in it.

jcm2606

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I think they are doing the best they can, after all they are human like me and you. So they are entitled to messed up. ESO is a big game with lots of parts. They at least are trying maybe not how or where you or I would like but at least the game is not static.

That would have been the case 3-4 years ago when the game first released, but 4, going on 5 years in? They should have had this *** sorted ages ago, with fine adjustments being made now, being careful not to disrupt the direction they chose 3-4 years ago.

What's actually happening is they're changing directions each patch, applying constant, heavy-handed nerfs, disrupting balance on a major scale.

ZOS_Ragnar

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