Will we ever see Dwemers? Possible 11th race for ESO?

MaisonNaevius

No, too many choices already

Lore.

Kevin_of_Devinshire

Umm, you would actually end up playing as the falmor as they are what the Dwemer turned into. It was never explained why, but they are now foul-blind creatures that live in caves.

TheShadowScout

Kevin_of_Devinshire wrote: »

Umm, you would actually end up playing as the falmor as they are what the Dwemer turned into. It was never explained why, but they are now foul-blind creatures that live in caves.

It was explained why.

Those falmer are not descendants of the dwemer, but the leftovers from the snow elves - and its all the dwemers fault!

When the atmorans drove the snow elves from skyrim, they sought refugee with the subterrean deep elves... which fed them a mushroom that made them blind, so they could easily enslave them for cheap labor.

Eventually the falmer revolted, and started a uprising... which the dwemer were busy fighting when they themselves all went -pop- with the battle at red mountain.

Thus the falmer were left, and mutated further until they became the blind, nasty creatures we fight in TES-V:Skyrim.

Thogard

Kevin_of_Devinshire wrote: »

Umm, you would actually end up playing as the falmor as they are what the Dwemer turned into. It was never explained why, but they are now foul-blind creatures that live in caves.

No, the falmer are the remnants of the snow elves that were driven underground by the Nords. That’s one mystery that has been definitively solved and explained in-game.

IMO the dwemer tried to use the tools on the heart but did not understand the mantling process. They didn’t mantle a god because there is no entire race of gods, nor did they perform actions in line with the God’s history... so since they technically mantled nothing, the tools transformed them into nothing.

Vivec, sotha, and almalexia mantled the actions of 3 of the Daedra - Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala. They betrayed and slew the Nerevar, with the nerevar metaphorically representing Lorkhan. This allowed them to use the heart to steal power from azura boethiah and mephala. Or from the mundus or something.

But yeah.. the dwarves tried to elevate their whole race. But there is no whole race of gods... so they mantled “nothingness” and thus ceased to exist.

LadyNalcarya

No, too many choices already

No. It wouldnt make sense to have a bunch of dwemers running around.
However, I can see a quest involving "flashbacks" to the time when dwemers werent extinct (kinda like flashback quests from Stonefalls and Rivenspire, when you see the events as a character from the past).

Ajaxandriel

Yes, Dwemers would do nice or...

Playable dwemer?
Since the lore enthusiasts are quite conservative, I wouldn't advise ZoS to do that!
But I bet this might happen if ESO is still up in 2028.

For one, I would love to play a Dwemer, thanks to a "soft retcon"/revision (like a lost colony in a small realm of Oblivion or a planet, doomed to disappear by the time of previous TES games).

To be fair, it seems more legit than some "fancy" mounts of these last years.

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

They will not pull a Blizzard, retcon the lore, and turn the elder scrolls franchise into a circus. Take your nonsense somewhere else please.

Don't you say?
NOTHING can reach the Void Elf & New Mag'har nonsense X')

117Dios wrote: »

Neoealth wrote: »

This poll is stupid really. If you knew anything about the TES lore you would know the Dwemer zero summed and vanished for good. They no longer exist. I think one survived because he was in oblivion at the time.

So unless you want to be the only dwemer player and be fat and have metal robot legs, then sure.


https://orig00.deviantart.net/2045/f/2014/108/7/4/yagrum_bagarn_by_himura_mechniza-d7ey3zc.jpg

Where does it say that they zero-summed? AFAIK when the Heart was struck they just disappeared into nothingness, without a clue. I often see people say that they became the skin of the Numidium but haven't found anything in regards to that either.

This is the Power Of Fanon, dude

neverwalk

Zos doesn't have rights to the Lore, that belongs to Beth...

Starlock

Yes, Dwemers would do nice or...

I've already played a dwemer (or is it a delusional high elf? ...we're not quite sure) through using RP and my imagination in various Elder Scrolls games anyway. I don't really need a race added to it, but it's neat when available. I'd rather get an artificer class, though. Which is another thing that will never happen.

Loves_guars

May Red Mountain's fire cleanse this heresy!!

DMuehlhausen

No! Just give me new a class!

Missing an option of No, cause it's out of Lore context.

The Dwemer are already gone, and no where (except like one in Morrowind I think) there are Dwemer in the future games/world. The only way would be if they do a time travel type quest/chapter and have them there.

Ertosi

Yes, Dwemers would do nice or...

Thogard wrote: »

Kevin_of_Devinshire wrote: »

Umm, you would actually end up playing as the falmor as they are what the Dwemer turned into. It was never explained why, but they are now foul-blind creatures that live in caves.

No, the falmer are the remnants of the snow elves that were driven underground by the Nords. That’s one mystery that has been definitively solved and explained in-game.

To elaborate further, the original Falmer (Snow Elves) were driven underground by the Nords, then enslaved by the Dwemer of that region. Their Dwemer overlords poisoned them all over time, over generations, to keep them subservient which cased them to degenerate into the misshapen, blind monsters now know as falmer.

Edit: Fixed some broken bb script.

Ertosi

Yes, Dwemers would do nice or...

There are two big things in ESO often forgotten by the peach-fuzz "lorebeards".

Unreliable Narrators: The concept of an unreliable Narrator runs deeply through all ESO lore. The story is always told through the eyes of a strong perspective and history is written by the winners. We, as players, never know the whole story.

Dragon Breaks: Phenomenon where time is broken. They are the realignment of time and space in response to events which makes the normal continuity of reality impossible. The cause is often attributed to mortals manipulating divine matters and often involves the Heart of Lorkhan. Many of the events happening during a dragon break will be forgotten to history after the dragon break's resolution, as if they had never happened.

Throw all-powerful daedric princes into the mix and these two concepts mean that literally anything could happen in the world of Nirn no matter how contradictory it might seem us. Did the story change? No, we just didn't know the correct or full story originally.


We know the Dwemer race disappeared when they tinkered with the Heart of Lorkhan. We don't, for certain, if they were transported elsewhere or outright destroyed (although there is very strong evidence of both possibilities). If something was transported away there is always the possibility that one day it could be transported back. But if they've been elsewhere, what has happened to their race? … What returns could very well be quite different that what originally left (although the amount of time that passed for them could be very different than the time that passed for Nirn; heck, maybe even no time passed for them at all!).

Well guess what, sunshines? Any story involving the return of the Dwemer would most certainly involve someone tinkering with the Heart of Lorkhan again, which means the strong possibility of a dragon break. One of the few things we know for sure is the Dwemer as a race don't exist in future times and history doesn't record their return, which would require a dragon break to keep the overall lore continuity. So if they were to return, it would need to be a temporary event and they would be, as a race, doomed to failure - at least on the long term. That resolution need not be finished in whatever story brings them back; it could certainly be left open-ended enough to allow them as a playable race in ESO without any breaks from the larger lore of Nirn.

All of this sounds like the perfect stage for an epic dragon break event caused by their attempted return, be it as friends or foes to the current races. I've always imagined their return including two factions of Dwemer. The main faction would be those in charge who have been changed by whatever happened to them or wherever they've been, and they are hellbent on dominating all of Nirn. The counter faction would be those who remained truly Dwemer, some wanting to stop their twisted brethren, others just glad to be back and wanting to survive in "modern" times; they would include playable Dwemer characters. Picture a massive chapter, The Return of the Dwemer, were massive automaton armies are rising out of the ground all across Nirn (like dolmens and geysers), and we the players must stop them to ensure that they don't take over and change the future of Nirn!

And what deliciously bittersweet stories we all would have with our Dwemer toons living their hopeful lives, fighting so hard side by side with their brothers and sisters of the other races, knowing in our player hearts no matter how hard they battle they are doomed to be utterly forgotten as a whole (immediately after the time period of ESO).


On a side note, what could they offer as a playable race? They should have passives that increase their damage to automatons, as well as buff any of theirs. They should also receive crafting/researching bonus, perhaps similar to Orcs. A racial affinity for shock damage would also be very fitting as well as provide some good racial opportunities with various classes.

Big chapters should include new skills so a Return of the Dwemer chapter should come with an Artificer skill line, complete with skills and passives that would mesh particularly well with Dwemer. The skills should mostly be summons for various automatons, with the passives mostly boosting them.

idk

No, too many choices already

neverwalk wrote: »

Zos doesn't have rights to the Lore, that belongs to Beth...

Right hand, left hand.

Ertosi wrote: »

Big chapters should include new skills so a Return of the Dwemer chapter should come with an Artificer skill line,

We received nothing similar with Morrowind outside of a class. I do not think Zos shares your thoughts. Just an observation.

Ertosi

Yes, Dwemers would do nice or...

idk wrote: »

We received nothing similar with Morrowind outside of a class. I do not think Zos shares your thoughts. Just an observation.

You say that like a new class wasn't a massive addition to the game on its own lmao

Edit: Plus seeing how classes each have 3 skill lines built in, Yes, ZOS did share my thoughts.

UrQuan

Ertosi wrote: »

There are two big things in ESO often forgotten by the peach-fuzz "lorebeards".

Unreliable Narrators: The concept of an unreliable Narrator runs deeply through all ESO lore. The story is always told through the eyes of a strong perspective and history is written by the winners. We, as players, never know the whole story.

The fact that virtually all Elder Scrolls lore comes from unreliable narrators is what makes it so great, and you're absolutely right that it's something that tons of TES fans just don't seem to understand.

I can't count the number of times I've seen people arguing "this book from this game said XYZ therefore it's fact, and anything that contradicts it is lorebreaking!" Well no, it's fact that the in-game book said that. It's not fact that the book was right. Just like in the real world, you have to consider the biases and agenda of the author, as well as whether they could have simply been wrong and/or misinterpreting things.

I love the fact that there are in-game sources that directly contradict other in-game sources - sometimes in very obvious ways (like a book that explicitly says that a different source is wrong or lying), and sometimes in much less obvious ways.

Interpreting TES lore and trying to sort out what is likely to be true from what is likely to be false (and, due to your second point below, what is likely to be both true and false simultaneously) is fun and in many ways is like doing real world historical research from primary and secondary sources.

Ertosi wrote: »

Dragon Breaks: Phenomenon where time is broken. They are the realignment of time and space in response to events which makes the normal continuity of reality impossible. The cause is often attributed to mortals manipulating divine matters and often involves the Heart of Lorkhan. Many of the events happening during a dragon break will be forgotten to history after the dragon break's resolution, as if they had never happened.

Throw all-powerful daedric princes into the mix and these two concepts mean that literally anything could happen in the world of Nirn no matter how contradictory it might seem us. Did the story change? No, we just didn't know the correct or full story originally.

This is true, but there's a huge caveat to dragon breaks. That caveat is that you can't explain everything away with dragon breaks.

As a narrative device, dragon breaks need to be used extremely sparingly, because if ZOS/Bethesda rely on them too much to explain away inconsistencies, people interested in the lore lose a lot of that interest. It becomes a lazy narrative device that devalues existing lore in a way that the unreliable narrator device does not. Possibly more importantly, if too much of the Elder Scrolls universe is explained by dragon breaks, the setting would become virtually incomprehensible for players new to the series.

Additionally, we know that dragon breaks are heavily commented on by in-universe sources as they are huge world-changing events. In-universe sources may not be entirely clear on the specifics of any dragon break (largely because the very nature of a dragon break makes it impossible to be entirely clear on the specifics), but they certainly notice when they happen, and that gets passed down through the ages.

It is unlikely (but not impossible) that by the time of Skyrim there had been any more dragon breaks than the ones that we already know of. Specific things that may have both happened and not happened during a dragon break will have been forgotten, but the fact that a dragon break happened is unlikely to have been forgotten.

Having said that, the pre-existing lore (as in: the lore that existed before the launch of ESO) about the time period in which ESO is set is fragmentary at best, and speaks of a time of turmoil and chaos. It's not impossible that a dragon break occurred during the interregnum, and that secondary sources writing about the time period at a later date misinterpreted accounts that would indicate a dragon break as just being confused due to the political chaos and wars of the time.

casparian

All of Alinor will see the Dwemer relatively soon after the events of ESO conclude -- when Walk-Brass marches in wearing them as his skin.

ghastley

No, too many choices already

I wish I could vote no three times: No Dwarves, No extra race, No extra class.

Even though race is changeable if you reconsider, unlike class, I don't see the benefit of having another. I'm not tempted to buy Imperial, because it doesn't add anything useful to my game. Ditto for Warden. And while Yagrum Bagarn is around at this point, the only other Dwemer should be ghosts.

Jayman1000

Im more interested in will we ever learn what actually made them disappear? This mystery seems so grown into the Elder Scrolls lore that it could be perceived as blapshemy to reveal it. Still I want to know what happened to them, and then I probably want to forget it again and go back to the mystery.

gro_drum

No! Just give me new a class!

Snow Elves (Aldmeris: Falmer), occasionally referred to as Ice Elves or Ancient Falmer, are a race of Mer that has nearly completely disappeared. During the Merethic Era, they were the main inhabitants of Skyrim, and had a very advanced society. It is commonly believed that centuries of underground living and Dwemer slavery twisted the race into becoming the blind, merciless and savage Falmer.

a missing link between Snow Elf and Falmer would be cool! ...but i'm definitely in the "new class" camp.

Siohwenoeht

No, too many choices already

Ertosi wrote: »

There are two big things in ESO often forgotten by the peach-fuzz "lorebeards".

Unreliable Narrators: The concept of an unreliable Narrator runs deeply through all ESO lore. The story is always told through the eyes of a strong perspective and history is written by the winners. We, as players, never know the whole story.

Dragon Breaks: Phenomenon where time is broken. They are the realignment of time and space in response to events which makes the normal continuity of reality impossible. The cause is often attributed to mortals manipulating divine matters and often involves the Heart of Lorkhan. Many of the events happening during a dragon break will be forgotten to history after the dragon break's resolution, as if they had never happened.

Throw all-powerful daedric princes into the mix and these two concepts mean that literally anything could happen in the world of Nirn no matter how contradictory it might seem us. Did the story change? No, we just didn't know the correct or full story originally.


We know the Dwemer race disappeared when they tinkered with the Heart of Lorkhan. We don't, for certain, if they were transported elsewhere or outright destroyed (although there is very strong evidence of both possibilities). If something was transported away there is always the possibility that one day it could be transported back. But if they've been elsewhere, what has happened to their race? … What returns could very well be quite different that what originally left (although the amount of time that passed for them could be very different than the time that passed for Nirn; heck, maybe even no time passed for them at all!).

Well guess what, sunshines? Any story involving the return of the Dwemer would most certainly involve someone tinkering with the Heart of Lorkhan again, which means the strong possibility of a dragon break. One of the few things we know for sure is the Dwemer as a race don't exist in future times and history doesn't record their return, which would require a dragon break to keep the overall lore continuity. So if they were to return, it would need to be a temporary event and they would be, as a race, doomed to failure - at least on the long term. That resolution need not be finished in whatever story brings them back; it could certainly be left open-ended enough to allow them as a playable race in ESO without any breaks from the larger lore of Nirn.

All of this sounds like the perfect stage for an epic dragon break event caused by their attempted return, be it as friends or foes to the current races. I've always imagined their return including two factions of Dwemer. The main faction would be those in charge who have been changed by whatever happened to them or wherever they've been, and they are hellbent on dominating all of Nirn. The counter faction would be those who remained truly Dwemer, some wanting to stop their twisted brethren, others just glad to be back and wanting to survive in "modern" times; they would include playable Dwemer characters. Picture a massive chapter, The Return of the Dwemer, were massive automaton armies are rising out of the ground all across Nirn (like dolmens and geysers), and we the players must stop them to ensure that they don't take over and change the future of Nirn!

And what deliciously bittersweet stories we all would have with our Dwemer toons living their hopeful lives, fighting so hard side by side with their brothers and sisters of the other races, knowing in our player hearts no matter how hard they battle they are doomed to be utterly forgotten as a whole (immediately after the time period of ESO).


On a side note, what could they offer as a playable race? They should have passives that increase their damage to automatons, as well as buff any of theirs. They should also receive crafting/researching bonus, perhaps similar to Orcs. A racial affinity for shock damage would also be very fitting as well as provide some good racial opportunities with various classes.

Big chapters should include new skills so a Return of the Dwemer chapter should come with an Artificer skill line, complete with skills and passives that would mesh particularly well with Dwemer. The skills should mostly be summons for various automatons, with the passives mostly boosting them.

I hadn't actually thought about the dwemer in this way. We already know time manipulation is possible, even without a dragon break ala the ancient nords sending alduin forward in time when they couldn't defeat him. I'd say for eso, dwemer could not show up but perhaps in a game set after tesV timeline.

Red_Feather

Yes, Dwemers would do nice or...

Gargath wrote: »

We already see one in the Dwarven ruin of Rkindaleft. Sadly, he doesn't look like a dwarf.


I prefer leaving Dwemers unexplored, they may prove a total disappointment and that would be a complete disaster for the lore and spoil all around their mystery.

I was in a group that rushed that area. I remember reading the dialogue faster than it was being spoken and glazing over words because I could hear the group fighting monsters suddenly in the background. I wish I cold replay that whole area solo.

Tucker3711

No, too many choices already

Dwemer are dead

El_Borracho

No, too many choices already

How about making Nords a race worth playing instead?

OrdoHermetica

No! Just give me new a class!

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about making Nords a race worth playing instead?

Hey, they're acceptable tanks!

...not great, but acceptable...

OrdoHermetica

No! Just give me new a class!

UrQuan wrote: »

Having said that, the pre-existing lore (as in: the lore that existed before the launch of ESO) about the time period in which ESO is set is fragmentary at best, and speaks of a time of turmoil and chaos. It's not impossible that a dragon break occurred during the interregnum, and that secondary sources writing about the time period at a later date misinterpreted accounts that would indicate a dragon break as just being confused due to the political chaos and wars of the time.

The problem with that is that Dragon Breaks leave a mark on time itself, even after the break is mended - that's how people know they happened, even if all memory of the event is wiped as has happened before. It would be very difficult to justify why no one would be able to detect a Dragon Break happening in the Interregnum period after the fact, especially since schools of magic that specifically deal with time (like the Psijics) are still around by the 4th Era. That would be a pretty big thing to paper over.

starkerealm

UrQuan wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

There are two big things in ESO often forgotten by the peach-fuzz "lorebeards".

Unreliable Narrators: The concept of an unreliable Narrator runs deeply through all ESO lore. The story is always told through the eyes of a strong perspective and history is written by the winners. We, as players, never know the whole story.

The fact that virtually all Elder Scrolls lore comes from unreliable narrators is what makes it so great, and you're absolutely right that it's something that tons of TES fans just don't seem to understand.

I can't count the number of times I've seen people arguing "this book from this game said XYZ therefore it's fact, and anything that contradicts it is lorebreaking!" Well no, it's fact that the in-game book said that. It's not fact that the book was right. Just like in the real world, you have to consider the biases and agenda of the author, as well as whether they could have simply been wrong and/or misinterpreting things.

I love the fact that there are in-game sources that directly contradict other in-game sources - sometimes in very obvious ways (like a book that explicitly says that a different source is wrong or lying), and sometimes in much less obvious ways.

Interpreting TES lore and trying to sort out what is likely to be true from what is likely to be false (and, due to your second point below, what is likely to be both true and false simultaneously) is fun and in many ways is like doing real world historical research from primary and secondary sources.

I'm just going to jump in here and make the somewhat obvious point. TES's lore is filled with unreliable narrators. Nearly every book we read needs to be carefully evaluated.

If you're familiar with real scholarly research, the same process applies. Identify the author, determine their position, experience, and knowledge, then evaluate accordingly.

You can find a book in TES5 saying that Alduin is the Nord version of Akatosh, written by Alexandre Simon, a priest of Akatosh from Wayrest. Now, we know the book is factually incorrect, but you can already get a hint of that by the fact that it was written by someone who is neither an accomplished scholar, nor an expert on cross-cultural studies.

(In Alexandre's defnese, this was a mistake also made by Mikhael Karkuxor of the Imperial College (in a book you can find back in TES3.) So he has some basis, even if it's still incorrect.)

What unreliable narrators don't affect, AT ALL, is what you, as the player, experience.

There's no, "unreliable narrator," to the Dwarven absence. There are questions about exactly what they did, or where they went (if anywhere), but the part where they all either vaporized or beamed up isn't in dispute. They're not around. Full stop.

UrQuan wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Dragon Breaks: Phenomenon where time is broken. They are the realignment of time and space in response to events which makes the normal continuity of reality impossible. The cause is often attributed to mortals manipulating divine matters and often involves the Heart of Lorkhan. Many of the events happening during a dragon break will be forgotten to history after the dragon break's resolution, as if they had never happened.

Throw all-powerful daedric princes into the mix and these two concepts mean that literally anything could happen in the world of Nirn no matter how contradictory it might seem us. Did the story change? No, we just didn't know the correct or full story originally.

This is true, but there's a huge caveat to dragon breaks. That caveat is that you can't explain everything away with dragon breaks.

As a narrative device, dragon breaks need to be used extremely sparingly, because if ZOS/Bethesda rely on them too much to explain away inconsistencies, people interested in the lore lose a lot of that interest. It becomes a lazy narrative device that devalues existing lore in a way that the unreliable narrator device does not. Possibly more importantly, if too much of the Elder Scrolls universe is explained by dragon breaks, the setting would become virtually incomprehensible for players new to the series.

Additionally, we know that dragon breaks are heavily commented on by in-universe sources as they are huge world-changing events. In-universe sources may not be entirely clear on the specifics of any dragon break (largely because the very nature of a dragon break makes it impossible to be entirely clear on the specifics), but they certainly notice when they happen, and that gets passed down through the ages.

It is unlikely (but not impossible) that by the time of Skyrim there had been any more dragon breaks than the ones that we already know of. Specific things that may have both happened and not happened during a dragon break will have been forgotten, but the fact that a dragon break happened is unlikely to have been forgotten.

Having said that, the pre-existing lore (as in: the lore that existed before the launch of ESO) about the time period in which ESO is set is fragmentary at best, and speaks of a time of turmoil and chaos. It's not impossible that a dragon break occurred during the interregnum, and that secondary sources writing about the time period at a later date misinterpreted accounts that would indicate a dragon break as just being confused due to the political chaos and wars of the time.

The short version with Dragon Breaks is, they exist to reconcile the utter chaos a player may cause during the course of playing through one of the games. There are Dragonbreaks for games that don't exist, but primarily it's there so that there can be some kind of continuity after each of the games. "Time stopped working right for a few years there because the ****ing Dragonborn kept pressing F9 every time they wiped out a village in a fit of pique."

Elsonso

starkerealm wrote: »

The short version with Dragon Breaks is, they exist to reconcile the utter chaos a player may cause during the course of playing through one of the games. There are Dragonbreaks for games that don't exist, but primarily it's there so that there can be some kind of continuity after each of the games. "Time stopped working right for a few years there because the ****ing Dragonborn kept pressing F9 every time they wiped out a village in a fit of pique."

I have been the unwitting cause of many Dragon Breaks. My apologies to all the people who never existed, and those who do, but wish they didn't.

UrQuan

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Having said that, the pre-existing lore (as in: the lore that existed before the launch of ESO) about the time period in which ESO is set is fragmentary at best, and speaks of a time of turmoil and chaos. It's not impossible that a dragon break occurred during the interregnum, and that secondary sources writing about the time period at a later date misinterpreted accounts that would indicate a dragon break as just being confused due to the political chaos and wars of the time.

The problem with that is that Dragon Breaks leave a mark on time itself, even after the break is mended - that's how people know they happened, even if all memory of the event is wiped as has happened before. It would be very difficult to justify why no one would be able to detect a Dragon Break happening in the Interregnum period after the fact, especially since schools of magic that specifically deal with time (like the Psijics) are still around by the 4th Era. That would be a pretty big thing to paper over.

Difficult (if not impossible) to justify that nobody would know about such a dragon break in the 4th era, yes. The Psijics would definitely know about it, but they're pretty damn reclusive and don't go around spilling a lot of their secrets. The Moth Priests would also pretty much definitely know about it, because they'd find a period that the Elder Scrolls couldn't penetrate. Other very knowledgeable magic-users would have a decent chance of knowing about it, and anyone still alive who actually lived through it (Divayth Fyr, for one) would definitely know about it.

That doesn't necessarily mean that knowledge of such a dragon break would have spread outside that very small segment of the population of Tamriel though. The very people who would be most likely to know about it are the very people who tend to be the most reclusive and mysterious. So it wouldn't be that difficult to justify why we'd never heard of it in any of the lore.

I don't consider it likely, but it's possible.

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

There are two big things in ESO often forgotten by the peach-fuzz "lorebeards".

Unreliable Narrators: The concept of an unreliable Narrator runs deeply through all ESO lore. The story is always told through the eyes of a strong perspective and history is written by the winners. We, as players, never know the whole story.

The fact that virtually all Elder Scrolls lore comes from unreliable narrators is what makes it so great, and you're absolutely right that it's something that tons of TES fans just don't seem to understand.

I can't count the number of times I've seen people arguing "this book from this game said XYZ therefore it's fact, and anything that contradicts it is lorebreaking!" Well no, it's fact that the in-game book said that. It's not fact that the book was right. Just like in the real world, you have to consider the biases and agenda of the author, as well as whether they could have simply been wrong and/or misinterpreting things.

I love the fact that there are in-game sources that directly contradict other in-game sources - sometimes in very obvious ways (like a book that explicitly says that a different source is wrong or lying), and sometimes in much less obvious ways.

Interpreting TES lore and trying to sort out what is likely to be true from what is likely to be false (and, due to your second point below, what is likely to be both true and false simultaneously) is fun and in many ways is like doing real world historical research from primary and secondary sources.

I'm just going to jump in here and make the somewhat obvious point. TES's lore is filled with unreliable narrators. Nearly every book we read needs to be carefully evaluated.

If you're familiar with real scholarly research, the same process applies. Identify the author, determine their position, experience, and knowledge, then evaluate accordingly.

I was a history major in Univeristy. Maybe that's why I love this aspect of TES lore so much.

starkerealm wrote: »

You can find a book in TES5 saying that Alduin is the Nord version of Akatosh, written by Alexandre Simon, a priest of Akatosh from Wayrest. Now, we know the book is factually incorrect, but you can already get a hint of that by the fact that it was written by someone who is neither an accomplished scholar, nor an expert on cross-cultural studies.

(In Alexandre's defnese, this was a mistake also made by Mikhael Karkuxor of the Imperial College (in a book you can find back in TES3.) So he has some basis, even if it's still incorrect.)

What unreliable narrators don't affect, AT ALL, is what you, as the player, experience.

There's no, "unreliable narrator," to the Dwarven absence. There are questions about exactly what they did, or where they went (if anywhere), but the part where they all either vaporized or beamed up isn't in dispute. They're not around. Full stop.

The bold part is an important point that I really should have brought up. Anything that we explicitly see in any TES game simply cannot be explained away by the unreliable narrator. There is hard, indisputable evidence of it. The only thing that can really be used to explain a discrepancy between what we witnessed in one TES game and what we witnessed in another is some sort of hand-wave.

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Dragon Breaks: Phenomenon where time is broken. They are the realignment of time and space in response to events which makes the normal continuity of reality impossible. The cause is often attributed to mortals manipulating divine matters and often involves the Heart of Lorkhan. Many of the events happening during a dragon break will be forgotten to history after the dragon break's resolution, as if they had never happened.

Throw all-powerful daedric princes into the mix and these two concepts mean that literally anything could happen in the world of Nirn no matter how contradictory it might seem us. Did the story change? No, we just didn't know the correct or full story originally.

This is true, but there's a huge caveat to dragon breaks. That caveat is that you can't explain everything away with dragon breaks.

As a narrative device, dragon breaks need to be used extremely sparingly, because if ZOS/Bethesda rely on them too much to explain away inconsistencies, people interested in the lore lose a lot of that interest. It becomes a lazy narrative device that devalues existing lore in a way that the unreliable narrator device does not. Possibly more importantly, if too much of the Elder Scrolls universe is explained by dragon breaks, the setting would become virtually incomprehensible for players new to the series.

Additionally, we know that dragon breaks are heavily commented on by in-universe sources as they are huge world-changing events. In-universe sources may not be entirely clear on the specifics of any dragon break (largely because the very nature of a dragon break makes it impossible to be entirely clear on the specifics), but they certainly notice when they happen, and that gets passed down through the ages.

It is unlikely (but not impossible) that by the time of Skyrim there had been any more dragon breaks than the ones that we already know of. Specific things that may have both happened and not happened during a dragon break will have been forgotten, but the fact that a dragon break happened is unlikely to have been forgotten.

Having said that, the pre-existing lore (as in: the lore that existed before the launch of ESO) about the time period in which ESO is set is fragmentary at best, and speaks of a time of turmoil and chaos. It's not impossible that a dragon break occurred during the interregnum, and that secondary sources writing about the time period at a later date misinterpreted accounts that would indicate a dragon break as just being confused due to the political chaos and wars of the time.

The short version with Dragon Breaks is, they exist to reconcile the utter chaos a player may cause during the course of playing through one of the games. There are Dragonbreaks for games that don't exist, but primarily it's there so that there can be some kind of continuity after each of the games. "Time stopped working right for a few years there because the ****ing Dragonborn kept pressing F9 every time they wiped out a village in a fit of pique."

^like this lol
The very concept of a dragon break is a narrative excuse that Bethesda came up with to hand-wave away differences that players saw between the canonical ending they saw to Daggerfall with the post-Daggerfall Tamriel.

Ertosi

Yes, Dwemers would do nice or...

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

It would be very difficult to justify why no one would be able to detect a Dragon Break happening in the Interregnum period after the fact, especially since schools of magic that specifically deal with time (like the Psijics) are still around by the 4th Era. That would be a pretty big thing to paper over.

The Interregnum period (2E 430-854) was much larger compared to when ESO takes place (2E 583), which is the specific time we're looking at. During the events of ESO, a little thing called the Planemeld took place. Something like the Planemeld could easily hide or confuse the events of a dragon break for scholars coming afterwards. Most researchers looking back would probably have a very hard time separating the two events. So I would disagree and state it would be very easy to justify why such an event wasn't recorded (at least not as common knowledge) in the times to come.

MLGProPlayer

mague wrote: »

Lore will prevent this forever

The lore doesn't say what happened to them, only that they disappeared because of... magic. Where they went is a mystery. They could just as easily return one day if Bethesda wants them to. It can't happen in ESO because of its place in the timeline, but there is certainly nothing in the lore preventing their return from happening in future TES games.