Shuffle: Cost reduction does not solve the glaring issue with med vs heavy

React

The recent 15% COST reduction on shuffle does not fix the issue that has been central to the heavy vs medium imbalance for many patches now. Heavy armor is still more mobile than medium.. Forward momentum, even as a 4s duration immunity, still is more valuable of an ability than shuffle. Run in tandem with blade cloak & heavy armor, and you'll have more mobility than medium with the same AoE mitigation, more single target mitigation, more sustain than medium via heavy attacks & constitution/less resources spent on active healing and thus the ability to run a higher net damage combination of sets, which in many cases will allow you to equate your damage to a medium armor build with a similar amount of sustain.

Now, I'd like to emphasize that with a 4s duration snare immunity available to heavy in addition to the upcoming speed potion/expedition nerfs, heavy builds are essentially at the bare minimum in terms of mobility to be functional in pvp. Snares are applied to you literally every second fighting more than one target, and you end up being snared more often than not. In comparison, medium armor builds that are still forced to use a 2.5 second snare immunity that STILL costs more than FM, are essentially F*****. You're going to be snared all the time, with no viable access to anything near 100% uptime on major expedition (also, which developer was sitting in their office chair laughing to themselves saying "vitality and expedition are basically the same value buffs"? Asking for a friend). Viable kiting is going to become near impossible as you'll have no significant mobility advantage over any other spec despite wearing the armor weight designed to avoid damage and outmaneuver opponents, and overall heavy armor is going to become the most viable option for 90% of stamina builds in PvP.

If shuffle was increased to 5s snare immunity, there would be a clear trade off between heavy and medium. I really hope the devs choose to make the right decision before murkmire goes live.

Bitmun

There should be not only the increased snare immunity, but source of Major Expedition needs to be brought as well. If not, medium armor w/o a bow will become totally useless. Also, reverting the changes with pots and making Maj/MinE unstackable with Swift solves all the issues.

Maryal

Since I don't think the devs are going to re-work their change to evasion, how about removing evasion from shuffel and replacing it with a % reduction in both snare duration & snare strength AND give it a few seconds of knock back immunity. After all, medium armor is supposed to be about mobility, not about damage mitigation.

React

Maryal wrote: »

Making evasion an AOE damage mitigator was ... illogical.

Major evasion should provided a reduction in both snare duration and snare strength AND provide a few seconds immunity to knock back.

Or, if changing how evasion works is not an option, then at the very least rework shuffle to NOT provide major evasion (medium armor is supposed to be about mobility, not about damage mitigation), and, instead, have shuffle provided a % reduction in both snare duration & strength AND give it a few seconds of knock back immunity.

Not sure about the CC immunity portion, but I totally agree about the mitigation. They took an armor weight that is made to avoid damage through high mobility and kiting, reduced it's access to speed buffs and thus it's mobility, then increased it's mitigation. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I'd be totally happy if they removed evasion, increased the immunity to 5s, then gave it a longer duration buff that reduced the effectiveness of snares or the duration of snares (similar to the new light armor passive).

Ragnaroek93

It's more about the lack of survivability. Give Shuffle a small hot on it and it should be fine.

Zelos

there is no difference how medium and heavy armor survive right now in the game. Medium armor SHOULD relay on being evasive and sneaky.. however right now with so much undodgeable things in the game and the fact that snares and immobilization are still out of control too survive in medium armor you have to stack mitigation to survive. So the question is since the both survive the same way via mitigation stacking when they should survive in different ways, why not go heavy armor? No one really asked for the shuffle reduction as its not needed since if your smart you will cast it after a breakfree ALWAYS even if you dont think you need to YOU SHOULD so its already 80% reduced cost. Evasion needs more of a buff both morphs in my opinion Elude sucks there should be something more on it and shuffle snare immunity if far to short.

React

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's more about the lack of survivability. Give Shuffle a small hot on it and it should be fine.

It's not though. That's the whole point. Zenimax is misinterpreting the real issue, which is the lack of mobility, as a lack of survivability. They are essentially catering to the cries of less skilled players who are unable to survive in medium because they play it like heavy, by increasing the mitigation and sustain available to medium. However at the same time, they globally reduced mobility and still did not provide any better snare immunity option to medium.

The real issue is and has always been shuffle is a bad snare immunity, while forward is a good snare immunity. They need to increase the immunity duration on shuffle to 5s, so there is a reason to choose medium over heavy. Turning medium armor into heavy armor with cost reduction and weapon damage but STILL LESS MOBILITY is just completely nonsensical.

Maryal

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's more about the lack of survivability. Give Shuffle a small hot on it and it should be fine.

Heavy armor is about survivability. Medium armor is about mobility. That's why the change in evasion (the major component of shuffle) is unhelpful to medium armor builds. Shuffle needs a buff that is in line with helping sustain medium armor mobility.

BaylorCorvette

Agreed that the biggest problem is heavy armor being more mobile than medium. Giving all stam classes regardless of armor choice a snare cleanse and immunity (via FM) is a good thing. HOWEVER it shouldn't be better than the snare cleanse and immunity from only wearing Medium armor. IMO (and I think almost everyone agrees with this), Shuffle should have the superior snare immunity since you're giving up armor mitigation.

Sun7dance

Just put Momentum into the medium armor tree and shuffle goes to two-handed.
Problem solved!

Finally there would be a real hard decision between running medium or heavy.
Exactly what we want!

SodanTok

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

(not that I disagree that medium still doesnt feel more mobile than heavy)

React

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

susmitds

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

@Liam12548 You must be a templar main. Templar undodgeable AoE spammables are one of the reason medium armor is so lacking on live.

SodanTok

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

I dont disagree with you, but there is 99% of other players worse than you that need to have reason to play medium. Getting 25% reduction to spin to win, dawn breakers, jabs, ballgroups or sieges is going help with that much more than 2s of snare immunity. There is still huge amount of PVP outside of some 1vX around tree.

React

susmitds wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

@Liam12548 You must be a templar main. Templar undodgeable AoE spammables are one of the reason medium armor is so lacking on live.

Oh yes, I am a stamplar main. However, I have very significant playtime on every stam class and truthfully I enjoy most of them equally. It is laughable to say that biting jabs and puncturing sweeps are the reason medium is lacking. Undodgeable abilities sure, they're tough to deal with in medium and most of them are AOE's. But jabs? You can land maybe 2 out of 5 jabs on any target that is moving, less if it's lagging (and it always lags on XB). I've got 3,000 hours on my stamplar, with AT LEAST 2,500 hours directly in PvP. EVEN WITH THE AOE REDUCTION ON EVASION NEXT PATCH, I'll NET MORE DAMAGE BECAUSE OF THE UPDATED TARGETING SYSTEM ALLOWING ME TO ACTUALLY LAND MY JABS (plus the 8% base damage increase).. Try a different argument.

React

SodanTok wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

I dont disagree with you, but there is 99% of other players worse than you that need to have reason to play medium. Getting 25% reduction to spin to win, dawn breakers, jabs, ballgroups or sieges is going help with that much more than 2s of snare immunity. There is still huge amount of PVP outside of some 1vX around tree.

Ah yes. Let's lower the skill floor every patch, increase mitigation even further despite the fact that healing and mitigation vastly outperform damage, then reduce mobility severely so players can't get away from the zergs that chase them down 10v1 or 30+v4

It's gonna be a real fun patch. /s

Kanar

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

I wonder sometimes if PvP-only players like this have ever even used medium armor? Are you aware that medium armor is a melee armor and dodge roll does NOTHING vs aoes? Medium armor gets eaten alive by the current popular aoe builds - spin2win, shalks, dbos, hurricane. And also by bleeds (worse than heavy). Medium needs a way to survive vs aoe damage in both PvP and PvE (where stam is excluded from some trials due to it's squishiness and lack of range).

React

Kanar wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

I wonder sometimes if PvP-only players like this have ever even used medium armor? Are you aware that medium armor is a melee armor and dodge roll does NOTHING vs aoes? Medium armor gets eaten alive by the current popular aoe builds - spin2win, shalks, dbos, hurricane. And also by bleeds (worse than heavy). Medium needs a way to survive vs aoe damage in both PvP and PvE (where stam is excluded from some trials due to it's squishiness and lack of range).

Interestingly enough, all those AoE's you listed can be moved out of/away from with proper mobility, which doesn't exist currently for medium. I play medium on every class and have since 1T, but I'll be switching to heavy next patch on multiple builds unless ZoS does something to fix medium's mobility.

So you're telling me that PvE stam builds use shuffle, huh? Interesting, I didn't know that. I thought they used blade cloak. /s

Just for the record, I've completed all crag vet trials, all vet HM 4 man content, 46k DSA, 520k+ VMA score, etc. I also PvP with some of the top-tier PvE players on my server. I understand how stamina functions (or does not) in PvE. Shuffle has nothing to do whatsoever with that, and this thread is about changing shuffle.

SodanTok

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

I dont disagree with you, but there is 99% of other players worse than you that need to have reason to play medium. Getting 25% reduction to spin to win, dawn breakers, jabs, ballgroups or sieges is going help with that much more than 2s of snare immunity. There is still huge amount of PVP outside of some 1vX around tree.

Ah yes. Let's lower the skill floor every patch, increase mitigation even further despite the fact that healing and mitigation vastly outperform damage, then reduce mobility severely so players can't get away from the zergs that chase them down 10v1 or 30+v4

It's gonna be a real fun patch. /s

You are making awfully wrong conclusions here. I am arguing against your idea that evasion isnt needed, not about ZoS making bad balance choices. Fact is new evasion will improve lives of every medium armor build in the game. And skill floor to kill those was already pretty low. There are many ways (and many mentioned in past) how to make medium armor good outside of nightblades and you dont have to pick the way that improves your way of playing and tells everyone get good or go heavy. That just moves heavy armor meta from 50-100% skill level range to 45-95%

(And we all know the correct solution in this example is to make other morph of Evasion - Elude - better)

Kanar

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

I dont disagree with you, but there is 99% of other players worse than you that need to have reason to play medium. Getting 25% reduction to spin to win, dawn breakers, jabs, ballgroups or sieges is going help with that much more than 2s of snare immunity. There is still huge amount of PVP outside of some 1vX around tree.

Ah yes. Let's lower the skill floor every patch, increase mitigation even further despite the fact that healing and mitigation vastly outperform damage, then reduce mobility severely so players can't get away from the zergs that chase them down 10v1 or 30+v4

It's gonna be a real fun patch. /s

Templars crying about major evasion seems to be a trend today. Did you guys get together on discord and all agree to come here and cry up a storm?

I mean, you're seriously saying medium mitigation + healing outperforms damage so I guess it's impossible to kill medium armor users? Sounds like floor is not low enough for you.

Ragnaroek93

Liam12548 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's more about the lack of survivability. Give Shuffle a small hot on it and it should be fine.

It's not though. That's the whole point. Zenimax is misinterpreting the real issue, which is the lack of mobility, as a lack of survivability. They are essentially catering to the cries of less skilled players who are unable to survive in medium because they play it like heavy, by increasing the mitigation and sustain available to medium. However at the same time, they globally reduced mobility and still did not provide any better snare immunity option to medium.

The real issue is and has always been shuffle is a bad snare immunity, while forward is a good snare immunity. They need to increase the immunity duration on shuffle to 5s, so there is a reason to choose medium over heavy. Turning medium armor into heavy armor with cost reduction and weapon damage but STILL LESS MOBILITY is just completely nonsensical.

The whole point is that med armor has very few ways to deal with undodgeable stuff and pressure (outside of spamming Cloak or playing with grossly overperforming defensive sets). So yes, giving it a bit more survivability is the easiest way to go. 2s longer imunity won't change much.

React

Kanar wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

I dont disagree with you, but there is 99% of other players worse than you that need to have reason to play medium. Getting 25% reduction to spin to win, dawn breakers, jabs, ballgroups or sieges is going help with that much more than 2s of snare immunity. There is still huge amount of PVP outside of some 1vX around tree.

Ah yes. Let's lower the skill floor every patch, increase mitigation even further despite the fact that healing and mitigation vastly outperform damage, then reduce mobility severely so players can't get away from the zergs that chase them down 10v1 or 30+v4

It's gonna be a real fun patch. /s

Templars crying about major evasion seems to be a trend today. Did you guys get together on discord and all agree to come here and cry up a storm?

I mean, you're seriously saying medium mitigation + healing outperforms damage so I guess it's impossible to kill medium armor users? Sounds like floor is not low enough for you.

You misunderstand me; I'm saying that the mitigation and healing available in the game through CP, heavy armor, racial choices, and sets VASTLY outperforms the damage capabilities available through the same channels. Giving medium builds even more mitigation doesn't add incentive to be in it, it simply furthers the issue of the TTK being way too high in general. In addition to this, the mitigation change doesn't actually FIX the mobility issue that is the primary reason stamina builds move to heavy armor. It just shows that the developers do not actually understand the issues with medium vs heavy and why players choose one or the other.

If you think I don't understand the game, go check out some of my gameplay or my build guides. I guarantee my perspective is more informed than your own. Good attempt at a bait, though.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's more about the lack of survivability. Give Shuffle a small hot on it and it should be fine.

It's not though. That's the whole point. Zenimax is misinterpreting the real issue, which is the lack of mobility, as a lack of survivability. They are essentially catering to the cries of less skilled players who are unable to survive in medium because they play it like heavy, by increasing the mitigation and sustain available to medium. However at the same time, they globally reduced mobility and still did not provide any better snare immunity option to medium.

The real issue is and has always been shuffle is a bad snare immunity, while forward is a good snare immunity. They need to increase the immunity duration on shuffle to 5s, so there is a reason to choose medium over heavy. Turning medium armor into heavy armor with cost reduction and weapon damage but STILL LESS MOBILITY is just completely nonsensical.

The whole point is that med armor has very few ways to deal with undodgeable stuff and pressure (outside of spamming Cloak or playing with grossly overperforming defensive sets). So yes, giving it a bit more survivability is the easiest way to go. 2s longer imunity won't change much.

Medium armor isn't supposed to be tanky. Medium armor doesn't need mitigation to cover it's damage counters. Medium armor needs mobility to be the most mobile armor weight, as it is designated as the most mobile armor weight. Currently heavy armor is the most mobile armor weight, because 90% of what makes up mobility is the ability to remove snares and FM outperforms shuffle.

Kanar

Liam12548 wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

The thing is, medium armor isn't designed to be tanky. Inherently giving it 25% aoe mitigation was a poor choice on zeni's behalf. You're SUPPOSED to kite and avoid damage in medium, not sit there and tank like heavy. Like I said, ZoS is catering to low tier players with this change, and not actually FIXING the issue with the armor weight.

I suggested 5s, which is 1s stronger than forward and double the current immunity, and any GOOD player will read that suggestion and understand the value of a longer immunity time in medium armor.

It's okay though, if ZoS doesn't buff shuffle's immunity we can all just run heavy + fm + blade cloak with the steed + an infused WD glyph + channeled acceleration and enjoy a nice long heavy armor meta (because that was SOO much fun back in the black rose days, imagine what it'll be like with 810 cp!).

I wonder sometimes if PvP-only players like this have ever even used medium armor? Are you aware that medium armor is a melee armor and dodge roll does NOTHING vs aoes? Medium armor gets eaten alive by the current popular aoe builds - spin2win, shalks, dbos, hurricane. And also by bleeds (worse than heavy). Medium needs a way to survive vs aoe damage in both PvP and PvE (where stam is excluded from some trials due to it's squishiness and lack of range).

Interestingly enough, all those AoE's you listed can be moved out of/away from with proper mobility, which doesn't exist currently for medium. I play medium on every class and have since 1T, but I'll be switching to heavy next patch on multiple builds unless ZoS does something to fix medium's mobility.

So you're telling me that PvE stam builds use shuffle, huh? Interesting, I didn't know that. I thought they used blade cloak. /s

Just for the record, I've completed all crag vet trials, all vet HM 4 man content, 46k DSA, 520k+ VMA score, etc. I also PvP with some of the top-tier PvE players on my server. I understand how stamina functions (or does not) in PvE. Shuffle has nothing to do whatsoever with that, and this thread is about changing shuffle.

So much flies over your head, it's hard to know where to start to make you informed. The change to Major Evasion has been done in part to make more builds viable in PvE, for example bow/bow in CR and AS where range is needed, the aoe mitigation may now be enough to make that playstyle viable. This addresses the complaint of these trials being magicka-only. Likewise 2h build in PvE can get aoe protection.

Also maybe you missed the fact that most medium armor users are melee and therefore must be in melee range? I guess your leet 520k vMA score let's you weave in and out between steel tornado spins to get those kills, maybe you crutch on swift to make it happen.

Amdar_Godkiller

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It's more about the lack of survivability. Give Shuffle a small hot on it and it should be fine.

It's not though. That's the whole point. Zenimax is misinterpreting the real issue, which is the lack of mobility, as a lack of survivability. They are essentially catering to the cries of less skilled players who are unable to survive in medium because they play it like heavy, by increasing the mitigation and sustain available to medium. However at the same time, they globally reduced mobility and still did not provide any better snare immunity option to medium.

The real issue is and has always been shuffle is a bad snare immunity, while forward is a good snare immunity. They need to increase the immunity duration on shuffle to 5s, so there is a reason to choose medium over heavy. Turning medium armor into heavy armor with cost reduction and weapon damage but STILL LESS MOBILITY is just completely nonsensical.

The whole point is that med armor has very few ways to deal with undodgeable stuff and pressure (outside of spamming Cloak or playing with grossly overperforming defensive sets). So yes, giving it a bit more survivability is the easiest way to go. 2s longer imunity won't change much.

the bigger issue to me is that shuffle lost a fairly unique buff and now provides one that you can get from weapon skill lines. While I do think the fact that FM provides superior mobility is laughably poor design, the viability of medium armor going forward depends in large part on making shuffle a must-slot skill for medium armor builds. It is very far from being that presently.

susmitds

Liam12548 wrote: »

If you think I don't understand the game, go check out some of my gameplay or my build guides. I guarantee my perspective is more informed than your own. Good attempt at a bait, though.

Gentlemen, we have a self-proclaimed pro narcissist in here.

Maryal

susmitds wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

If you think I don't understand the game, go check out some of my gameplay or my build guides. I guarantee my perspective is more informed than your own. Good attempt at a bait, though.

Gentlemen, we have a self-proclaimed pro narcissist in here.

LOL! Good catch!

Silver_Strider

The issue isn't that Heavy Armor is more mobile than Medium (both can use FT so that argument holds no real weight to begin with). The issue was that Heavy Armor provides much more benefits than Medium. Between the higher damage mitigation, the better sustain and the better Weapon Damage sets available in Heavy Armor, there was little reason to wear Medium Armor apart from the passive dodge from Shuffle unless you could supplement the discrepancies between HA and MA with something else, such as Cloak to mitigate damage.

The AoE mitigation on Shuffle on top of the cost reduction might make it more useful for medium armor builds since it should give a higher mitigation than using Heavy with Blade Cloak after factoring in diminishing returns on resistances but it still won't be enough to get people to use it on the grounds that Heavy still has tons of benefits that Medium Armor can't replace. Give Medium Armor some decent damage sets that aren't pure cheese and maybe we'll see some more uses for Medium Armor in PvP.

bagon

As the comments to this post show, players without a clue greatly outnumber players with one, and this is how we end up with patches like nerfmire.

ccfeeling

Med pve
Heavy pvp

No diversity

leepalmer95

SodanTok wrote: »

No thank you. I will trade 1-1.5s of snare immunity for over 20s of 25% damage reduction on undodgable AoE every day of the year.

Why is every 'solution to medium armor problem' so nuclear with people like you. Medium must feel good to play in even if you arent god player. Second or 2 of longer snare immunity wont help anyone in medium to survive longer

(not that I disagree that medium still doesnt feel more mobile than heavy)

5s of immunity will help immensely, id be able to get out of range easier, los easier etc... Mobility is way to survive longer.

susmitds wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

If you think I don't understand the game, go check out some of my gameplay or my build guides. I guarantee my perspective is more informed than your own. Good attempt at a bait, though.

Gentlemen, we have a self-proclaimed pro narcissist in here.

No you have a good long term player responding to someone saying they don't understand the game, thats all there is.

Now if people like you and half this thread played the game more than then spend on the forum getting solo/ small scale nerfed the game would be in a far better state.

IZZEFlameLash

I think this is one of the more reasonable solution. Tbh, I liked my passive dodge chance. Now that it is AoE mitigation (which tbf belongs to HA weight as it is tanking related), I think increase in snare immunity would be in the order.