Battle spirit / TTK / Healing / Damage Discussion (Edited title)

IxSTALKERxI

Battlespirit currently adds 5k health when entering Cyrodiil. I think combat would be more meaningful if it added 10k. Cyrodiil is such a burst fest (damage and healing).

Thoughts?

Edit: +5k probs won't change much. I still think itemization / CP is making our characters too powerful though but solution is complicated.

VaranisArano

I don't play No CP much, so I can't really speak to your suggestion in BGs or Sotha Sil/Kyne.

I don't think its necessary in CP PVP, where players already have plenty of options for damage mitigation. Additionally, ZOS keeps trying to nerf tanky builds with high damage in PVP, so I dont expect them to increase player health in this manner.

Stratforge

pls no

NolaArch

Stratforge wrote: »

pls no

Seconded

IxSTALKERxI

VaranisArano wrote: »

Additionally, ZOS keeps trying to nerf tanky builds with high damage in PVP, so I dont expect them to increase player health in this manner.

Yeah, health ≠ damage mitigation. It just helps survive burst damage, which tanks don't die to anyway, and the tanky players would not be able to burst the squishy players so they wouldn't be able to kill anything because so many people crutch on burst. It also takes more healing to get to full health and more damage to die, it's basically the same effect as the 50% damage reduction / shield / healing.

IxSTALKERxI

Probably not the perfect solution tbh.

To give some context though, I have played a lot of pvp over the last few months on a squishy light armor build with dual wield... and 60k hp. The combat felt so much more interesting because when my health bar decreased I could actually react with a heal etc, rather than everything being pro-active like shields + hots etc. even though i was really squishy my health gave me enough time to fight back. It reminded me more of gameplay at launch. Felt more like MMO combat using an actual rotation and less like a FPS sprinting around pressing one button lol.

Not sure how many of you played 2014 and start of 2015, but just feels like combat is missing something imo.

Elong

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Probably not the perfect solution tbh.

To give some context though, I have played a lot of pvp over the last few months on a squishy light armor build with dual wield... and 60k hp. The combat felt so much more interesting because when my health bar decreased I could actually react with a heal etc, rather than everything being pro-active like shields + hots etc. even though i was really squishy my health gave me enough time to fight back. It reminded me more of gameplay at launch. Felt more like MMO combat using an actual rotation and less like a FPS sprinting around pressing one button lol.

Not sure how many of you played 2014 and start of 2015, but just feels like combat is missing something imo.

I know what you mean, I don't think the hp increase is the thing, perhaps 20% decrease in all damage abilities? (or 10%, I dunno).

zyk

IMO, the Time to Kill (TTK) is too high atm. From a PC/NA/Vivec/AD POV, I feel like most of my fights are against tanky opponents. I was a fan of the low TTK in 1.6.

I've only been back a few days, but I don't find burst to be a problem atm with heavy armor and 25k hp.

IxSTALKERxI

Elong wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Probably not the perfect solution tbh.

To give some context though, I have played a lot of pvp over the last few months on a squishy light armor build with dual wield... and 60k hp. The combat felt so much more interesting because when my health bar decreased I could actually react with a heal etc, rather than everything being pro-active like shields + hots etc. even though i was really squishy my health gave me enough time to fight back. It reminded me more of gameplay at launch. Felt more like MMO combat using an actual rotation and less like a FPS sprinting around pressing one button lol.

Not sure how many of you played 2014 and start of 2015, but just feels like combat is missing something imo.

I know what you mean, I don't think the hp increase is the thing, perhaps 20% decrease in all damage abilities? (or 10%, I dunno).

Healing to. Like, if you run light or medium armor, your health goes from like 25k to 2k and then straight back to 25k... lol like wtf. There is a reason why everyone loves heavy armor so much lol, it slows combat down to a more manageable pace.

Game would be more interesting if it took 2-3 seconds to drop to 0% and 2-3 seconds to heal back to full again. But yeah idk, same thing in PVE to, I feel like you're either 100% or 0%, if i was a healer i'd get pretty bored staring at people health bars lol. One of the things i love is seeing everyone's health bars in group slowly going up and down.

IxSTALKERxI

zyk wrote: »

IMO, the Time to Kill (TTK) is too high atm. From a PC/NA/Vivec/AD POV, I feel like most of my fights are against tanky opponents. But I was a fan of the low TTK in 1.6.

I've only been back a few days, but I don't find burst to be a problem atm with heavy armor and 25k hp.

Yeah players can be tanky and you can survive burst in heavy and still do enough damage to kill everyone in medium and light lol.

Idealy I would like damage & healing slightly less effective in comparison to player health pools, and the mitigation gap between tanks and squishies brought a little closer together.

So many 30% major buffs going round now to like major vitality and protection etc, there is huge power creeps each patch in comparison to players health pools. I feel like balance could be a lot better, should be less extremes. Less extremes with snares to, you can either move or you can't. Why can't we have something in between?

idk

Elong wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Probably not the perfect solution tbh.

To give some context though, I have played a lot of pvp over the last few months on a squishy light armor build with dual wield... and 60k hp. The combat felt so much more interesting because when my health bar decreased I could actually react with a heal etc, rather than everything being pro-active like shields + hots etc. even though i was really squishy my health gave me enough time to fight back. It reminded me more of gameplay at launch. Felt more like MMO combat using an actual rotation and less like a FPS sprinting around pressing one button lol.

Not sure how many of you played 2014 and start of 2015, but just feels like combat is missing something imo.

I know what you mean, I don't think the hp increase is the thing, perhaps 20% decrease in all damage abilities? (or 10%, I dunno).

This is what I was thinking with OPs post. Increasing the TTK increases the skill required as well.

Sacredx

I think from a pug's perspective 5k extra hp would be of huge benefit. Gives them a higher chance to survive rather than a 1s burst, blink and dead. For groups it would have a very small effect as they rely on group effects, which are way stronger than 5k hp. So it that case it's not a bad idea.

IxSTALKERxI

Defile is another stupid one. You can either heal or you can't. I honestly think a lot of the 30% major buffs in the game should be 20% instead. Champion points should all be 15% max. Sprint cost reduction is OP on PTS to, you can literally sprint in light armor for a couple of minutes without running out of stam lol.

Lol now that i'm going off on a tangent this thread is probably in the wrong section haha.

#less extremes

End rant.

Elong

Sacredx wrote: »

I think from a pug's perspective 5k extra hp would be of huge benefit. Gives them a higher chance to survive rather than a 1s burst, blink and dead. For groups it would have a very small effect as they rely on group effects, which are way stronger than 5k hp. So it that case it's not a bad idea.

Pugs already have too much going for them in the last 12 months with easier Xv1 sets .

I think decreasing the healing and damage battle spirit by another 15-20% would make fights longer and more skillful instead of a bigger chunk of HP to whittle away at.

susmitds

Every idea in here, would just make ganking impossible.

Elong

susmitds wrote: »

Every idea in here, would just make ganking impossible.

Whilst I also agree with you, I don't think you'll find much sympathy

Sacredx

Elong wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

I think from a pug's perspective 5k extra hp would be of huge benefit. Gives them a higher chance to survive rather than a 1s burst, blink and dead. For groups it would have a very small effect as they rely on group effects, which are way stronger than 5k hp. So it that case it's not a bad idea.

Pugs already have too much going for them in the last 12 months with easier Xv1 sets .

I think decreasing the healing and damage battle spirit by another 15-20% would make fights longer and more skillful instead of a bigger chunk of HP to whittle away at.

Pugs get wiped by burst proc stacking. Giving them more hp will make it harder to burst them.

Reducing damage/heal will only help tanks and 1vxers and groups. Pugs will be worse off which means most players will get nerfed in the process.

Elong

Sacredx wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

I think from a pug's perspective 5k extra hp would be of huge benefit. Gives them a higher chance to survive rather than a 1s burst, blink and dead. For groups it would have a very small effect as they rely on group effects, which are way stronger than 5k hp. So it that case it's not a bad idea.

Pugs already have too much going for them in the last 12 months with easier Xv1 sets .

I think decreasing the healing and damage battle spirit by another 15-20% would make fights longer and more skillful instead of a bigger chunk of HP to whittle away at.

Pugs get wiped by burst proc stacking. Giving them more hp will make it harder to burst them.

Reducing damage/heal will only help tanks and 1vxers and groups. Pugs will be worse off which means most players will get nerfed in the process.

The burst from unskilled players is the worst thing about this game at the moment though. Adding more HP won't make fights much longer at all for someone who's already eating 15k damage a second.

However if they added more HP like your suggestion I would still be ok with that.

Sacredx

it's hard to balance especially when tank builds are about as strong as you want them to be, any more and some players would be unkillable. hp does not effect mitigation so that's one way to modify the balance.

IZZEFlameLash

Stalker stoking the fire I see. Do you not fear the wrath of forumblades?

zyk

idk wrote: »

This is what I was thinking with OPs post. Increasing the TTK increases the skill required as well.

How so?

IxSTALKERxI

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Stalker stoking the fire I see. Do you not fear the wrath of forumblades?

I am your fearless leader. I also don't mind criticism.


Not really about skill, it's just more about fun game play and more build diversity. People tend to get caught up on skill etc and forget that they are meant to be having fun .

When discussing TTK it's important to differentiate between TTK while just standing there or going on offense without a hot, and TTK whilst going on defense / having hots running.

I am of the opinion that the TTK whilst not doing anything is too low, and the TTK whilst stacking hots and playing defensively is too high.

This is why healing & shields need to be nerfed equally as hard as damage, so that tanks don't get even tankier. Yet people who don't have a hot active have 1 second to activate the hot or apply a shield without instantly going to 0. I mean I guess you could argue that makes it less skillful but I don't think any of this has to do with skill. What I think it does is shift the meta from heavy armor / light armor shield stack into other viable builds and makes the game less about burst and maybe people will run dots etc. DK's would be indirectly buffed for example and stam wardens would be indirectly nerfed.

I think needing to have shields up 100% of the time or having vigor stacks rolling 100% of the time and dropping dead in 1 second if you don't do either of those things is a little silly and ruins build diversity and benifits certain armor types and classes more than others.

O_LYKOS

Definitely no lol

Anrose

susmitds wrote: »

Every idea in here, would just make ganking impossible.

And force those players to learn to do something other than a short burst combo from a broken stealth mechanic?

Oh noes!!

adirondack

Anrose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Every idea in here, would just make ganking impossible.

And force those players to learn to do something other than a short burst combo from a broken stealth mechanic?

Oh noes!!

Lurker

Anrose

adirondack wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Every idea in here, would just make ganking impossible.

And force those players to learn to do something other than a short burst combo from a broken stealth mechanic?

Oh noes!!

Lurker

Hey, I might log in again soon(tm)

frozywozy

@IxSTALKERxI - Personally I see the way to address burst / tanking in PvP as followed :

Now : Tankyness <==================================================> Burst
Fixed : Tankyness <==========================> Burst

Increasing HPs would mean that you increase the gap between the amount of tankyness VS the amount of burst. So if we add extra HPs, it means you would have to nerf tankyness quite alot somewhere else imo. And also nerf bursting aswell.

#less extremes - as you pointed out in another of your post.

redspecter23

They could go the opposite way and remove the 5k health bonus completely. Players may then be encouraged to put some stats into health to compensate and bring overall damage down. Raising health past a point where any outside investment needs to be made just makes the low time to kill problem worse by enabling min/max damage stats.

IxSTALKERxI

redspecter23 wrote: »

They could go the opposite way and remove the 5k health bonus completely. Players may then be encouraged to put some stats into health to compensate and bring overall damage down. Raising health past a point where any outside investment needs to be made just makes the low time to kill problem worse by enabling min/max damage stats.

Yeah that's a good point tbh. There isn't really a simple solution.

I do feel like the ratio of max health : damage : healing is completely out of whack though, from a number of things such as cp, major vitality/protection, burst combo's, sets giving high raw stats. Almost to the point of like an attribute rebalance is in order or co-effienents nerfed etc. Like i dunno, I'm not even sure having sets with 4 of the same stat was a good idea either like plague doctor vs necro etc.

Elong

Agree that time to kill is currently too short. On the flipside time to recover is too quick too. It's very easy to go from 10% to 100% health and that's why burst is a common pvp setup.
How to balance though? Well zos have been trying for years now.

crazy_catman21

Just gear up for more health lol