Battle spirit / TTK / Healing / Damage Discussion (Edited title)

NBrookus

redspecter23 wrote: »

They could go the opposite way and remove the 5k health bonus completely. Players may then be encouraged to put some stats into health to compensate and bring overall damage down. Raising health past a point where any outside investment needs to be made just makes the low time to kill problem worse by enabling min/max damage stats.

That'd be pretty severe in no CP.

It's also be a huge buff to NB gankers who can still usually shade/cloak to get away but now their targets have less resources to chase them with.

susmitds

NBrookus wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

They could go the opposite way and remove the 5k health bonus completely. Players may then be encouraged to put some stats into health to compensate and bring overall damage down. Raising health past a point where any outside investment needs to be made just makes the low time to kill problem worse by enabling min/max damage stats.

That'd be pretty severe in no CP.

It's also be a huge buff to NB gankers who can still usually shade/cloak to get away but now their targets have less resources to chase them with.

Exactly why giving more HP would be a huge nerf to NBs.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

scale max dmg you can do per hit to 40% of your hp

redspecter23

NBrookus wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

They could go the opposite way and remove the 5k health bonus completely. Players may then be encouraged to put some stats into health to compensate and bring overall damage down. Raising health past a point where any outside investment needs to be made just makes the low time to kill problem worse by enabling min/max damage stats.

That'd be pretty severe in no CP.

It's also be a huge buff to NB gankers who can still usually shade/cloak to get away but now their targets have less resources to chase them with.

Yeah, it would definitely cause issues. The problem facing any balance changes is that it has to currently work in both CP and non CP as soon as pvp is a consideration. ZOS has got quite the mess to balance around right now.

VaranisArano

susmitds wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

They could go the opposite way and remove the 5k health bonus completely. Players may then be encouraged to put some stats into health to compensate and bring overall damage down. Raising health past a point where any outside investment needs to be made just makes the low time to kill problem worse by enabling min/max damage stats.

That'd be pretty severe in no CP.

It's also be a huge buff to NB gankers who can still usually shade/cloak to get away but now their targets have less resources to chase them with.

Exactly why giving more HP would be a huge nerf to NBs.

Er, they are talking about removing the 5k health bonus and that being a buff to NB gankers. Which either makes players squishier (easier targets) or the player has to devote more parts of their build to compensate for the lost health, meaning they have less resources to spend fighting and chasing after the NB ganker.

The only reason I can think that more health is a nerf for NB gankers is that more health = more burst damage needed to take down a target, but that's kinda meh.

Syhae

People are already way too tanky and can stack resists/health to levels which shouldn't be in the game. 5k more health on everybody would be insane.

Sacredx

Sounds like people are arguing for both sides = game is balanced as is!

ATomiX96

nah adding another 5k isnt the solution, it would just buff "having number advantage" and encourage zerging even further than it already is. removing 5k from battlespirit isnt the solution either because then all cyrodiil will be is a gankfiesta and way too bursty for most new people to manage. Battlespirit and Time-to-Kill are perfect the way they are right now. But there are many other problems which should be investigated (zergs, server performance, AP economy and many more...)

IZZEFlameLash

susmitds wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

They could go the opposite way and remove the 5k health bonus completely. Players may then be encouraged to put some stats into health to compensate and bring overall damage down. Raising health past a point where any outside investment needs to be made just makes the low time to kill problem worse by enabling min/max damage stats.

That'd be pretty severe in no CP.

It's also be a huge buff to NB gankers who can still usually shade/cloak to get away but now their targets have less resources to chase them with.

Exactly why giving more HP would be a huge nerf to NBs.

How is it a nerf that class can get away with low health already due to their powerful defensive ability while they retain their burst to kill people with one shot? If everyone in Cyrodiil not NBs ran with 13k~20k my NB would be happy to gank them because regardless of their resist stats, I can kill them before they can react.

Morgul667

Id rather not, I dislike 1v1 combats that last for 5 minutes due to nobody being able to kill the other one

killahsin

I absolutely agree with mojar.

FloppyTouch

Last thing we need is 24 man groups running around with 40k health most are already at 30k+ now. I say when ur group is past 12 you lose the 5k from battle spirit .

IZZEFlameLash

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Last thing we need is 24 man groups running around with 40k health most are already at 30k+ now. I say when ur group is past 12 you lose the 5k from battle spirit .

Those groups can only kill bad players with bad gears. Besides, his other suggested changes would balance the added 5k health out.

Biro123

I've suggested the opposite in the past - removing that 5k health buff..

Think about it. It would force people to build more health to avoid constant 1-shots - and in doing so, their damage stats would have to reduce to compensate - so less damage/weaker healing = a slower rate of change to that health-bar.

IxSTALKERxI

I think it's the ratio of the base stats vs added/distributed stats.

Example:


Base stats for fresh naked character:

Health 8744
Magicka7958
Stamina7958
Health Recovery 309
Magicka Recovery 514
Stamina Recovery 514
Spell Damage 0
Weapon Damage 0

Stats after player puts gear on and cp in for their desired build:

Magicka 39684
Health 28029
Stamina 10121

Magicka Recovery 1524
Health Recovery 166
Stamina Recovery 786

Spell Damage 5571
Spell Critical4 5.8%
Weapon Damage 3625
Weapon Critical 23.4%

Spell Resistance 16936
Physical Resistance 15121
Critical Resistance 2531

In this example the tooltip of an ability went from 848 to 18742 (22x increase) while health only increased by 3.2x. I think players have too much freedom to build in one direction or another.



Instead I think it should look more like this:

Base stats for fresh naked character:

Health 20000
Magicka 12000
Stamina 12000

Stats after player puts gear on and cp in for their desired build:

Health 30000
Magicka 28000
Stamina 13000


like idk, basically the base stats people start with have a greater influence, and the stats from gear + CP which distingishes players apart from each other needs to be less than what it is currently, so people have a higher health pool vs the damage & healing power that we are currently seeing in both pvp and in pve. Champion system is to blame for a lot of this, along with itemization. Softcaps back in the day helped a lot with the balance to.



Edit: Also these numbers aren't to be taken literally, i'm just making them up to try and illustrate what i mean.

MerlinPendragon

There are enough people who are already nearly unkillable. Buffing battle spirit would only make it worse.

VaranisArano

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Last thing we need is 24 man groups running around with 40k health most are already at 30k+ now. I say when ur group is past 12 you lose the 5k from battle spirit .

1. Cyrodiil is intended for groups of 2 to 24, says so right in the tooltip, originally groups of 8 to 24.

2. Organized groups would adapt with different gear and healers. So the large organized groups would still dominate over disorganized zergs and small scale groups.

So while I agree that we dont need 5k extra health, I think your suggestion is contrary to the design of Cyrodiil and unlikely to seriously impact the large organized groups, thus making them even stronger compared to disorganized or semi-organized PUG raids,

fastolfv_ESO

there are too many tanks already, average player seems to wear 5 heavy aswell more health would be very unhealthy for pvp

IcyDeadPeople

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Battlespirit currently adds 5k health when entering Cyrodiil. I think combat would be more meaningful if it added 10k. Cyrodiil is such a burst fest (damage and healing).

Thoughts?

Hmm...how about the opposite, remove the battle spirit 5k and make people sacrifice damage to spec into high health or more mitigation

Bashev

@IxSTALKERxI In the past we had soft caps on the stats. This was the key to balance the stats. The devs removed it with the CP system, though that the whole CP system is based on soft caps and hard caps itself.

Aerrimus

How about making battle spirit 6k max, but tie it to faction loyalty. Add 3k for each week playing the same faction. If you've been playing the same faction for 2 weeks you'll start at 6k so most new players won't be hurt. I've you decide to change factions, it will take 2 weeks to get back to max.

This would be a way to reward faction loyalty and still allow people to switch factions with little consequence.

Rake

add extra 2500 for nonCP

Elong

Aerrimus wrote: »

How about making battle spirit 6k max, but tie it to faction loyalty. Add 3k for each week playing the same faction. If you've been playing the same faction for 2 weeks you'll start at 6k so most new players won't be hurt. I've you decide to change factions, it will take 2 weeks to get back to max.

This would be a way to reward faction loyalty and still allow people to switch factions with little consequence.

What is up with everyone banging the faction loyalty drum lately?

(And I played EP for the majority of 4 years).

IxSTALKERxI

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Battlespirit currently adds 5k health when entering Cyrodiil. I think combat would be more meaningful if it added 10k. Cyrodiil is such a burst fest (damage and healing).

Thoughts?

Hmm...how about the opposite, remove the battle spirit 5k and make people sacrifice damage to spec into high health or more mitigation

Yeah a few people have mentioned this, here and in another thread. The problem with this is that abilities don't just scale off magicka and stamina. They scale off a combination of max stats plus weapon damage and spell power. This suggestion
doesn't address the power creep in weapon + spell power. You could probably put a lot of points into health and still stack 6000 weapon power and do decent damage.

Another point is you can make the same argument in reverse. Instead of 'make people sacrifice damage' you could 'make people sacrifice tankyness (heavy armor) in order to do enough damage to secure a kill as it is now harder to burst someone down, you might actually need to wear light armor etc in order to do so.

Bashev wrote: »

@IxSTALKERxI In the past we had soft caps on the stats. This was the key to balance the stats. The devs removed it with the CP system, though that the whole CP system is based on soft caps and hard caps itself.

Yes, the CP system has soft caps / hard caps. But your character stats don't. The caps within CP don't stop someone from equipping a item that grants them 10,000 weapon damage, but soft caps on your actual character stats would.

___________________

As for the rest of the thread... After giving it more thought the 5k hp thing probably isn't really gonna do much. The problem lies with itemization and CP itself. The potential stats that can be gained from itemization greatly exceeds the stats gained from distributing your attribute points which is completely backwards... The best fix is to do a balance pass of all itemization in the game and tuning down in comparison to attributes or making the attributes worth more in comparison to the itemization.


Edit:

Took some screenshots real quick from PTS as an example off attribute points vs itemiation + CP. This screenshot is from in cyrodiil... as you can see the stats without any attributes isn't actually that bad and gear is giving me more stats than attributes are lol. At launch the attributes mattered quite a bit more than they do now.

Derra

I have no idea what game you play but on pc EU prettymuch everyone you meet is a tank that´s entirely immune to any kind of burst dmg.

IxSTALKERxI

Derra wrote: »

I have no idea what game you play but on pc EU prettymuch everyone you meet is a tank that´s entirely immune to any kind of burst dmg.

Yeah same thing on NA. There is a huge gap between tanks and glass cannons. The meta is really suited to tanky people. Trying to think of a way to close the gap between the two. I think itemization / CP is creating a large gap between those who choose to be tanks and those who choose to be glass cannon. Each end of the spectrum needs to be brought closer together somehow.

Edit: another issue is how much weapon/spell power people can stack while wearing heavy armor.

IcyDeadPeople

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Edit: another issue is how much weapon/spell power people can stack while wearing heavy armor.

I think it would help to put light & med on a bit higher tier of damage compared to heavy, for example give med armor passive to light (add spell damage) and give light penetration passive to medium (add phys pen). Then if you are going for heavy you miss out on the damage and penetration but you still have decent sustain passives. maybe wrath passive needs some adjustment as well?

zyk

Derra wrote: »

I have no idea what game you play but on pc EU prettymuch everyone you meet is a tank that´s entirely immune to any kind of burst dmg.

PC/NA/Vivec is very mixed. Almost all experienced players run tanky builds now, but we have a steady influx of new players who melt. There are certain time intervals that are known to have more squishy players.

Also, our factions aren't really balanced. The way the culture evolved on PC/NA, I'd guess that 90% of the players in the small scale community play for DC and/or EP. So AD players tend to be less tanky in general; especially compared to DC.

IMO, the TTK in fights between experienced players is way too high. It reminds me of late 1.5. I very much miss 1.6-2.2 gameplay which was much faster.

So burst/layered damage is a problem if you don't build to survive it, and building to survive it creates other problems like fights that drag on for too long.

I agree with Stalker that the problem is itemization. Master DW builds, in particular, are way too strong. But on the other side of the coin, there are defensive sets that are also very strong.

The main reason I switched from medium to heavy on stam builds is lag. Heavy allows one to survive getting ZOS'd. The game is way too clunky for reactive playstyles. There are many times a night I am stuck in a stun spamming break-free with sufficient stam and am bailed out by wearing heavy armor.

With that said, I think a contributing factor to lag is the high TTK. In that way, the heavy armor meta is feeding itself.

It will be interesting to see if the 4.2 mobility changes have an impact on build variety. I don't they will. I think they will further inhibit solo play and there will be more tanks that won't be able to kill each other without bleeds than ever.

Aerrimus

Elong wrote: »

Aerrimus wrote: »

How about making battle spirit 6k max, but tie it to faction loyalty. Add 3k for each week playing the same faction. If you've been playing the same faction for 2 weeks you'll start at 6k so most new players won't be hurt. I've you decide to change factions, it will take 2 weeks to get back to max.

This would be a way to reward faction loyalty and still allow people to switch factions with little consequence.

What is up with everyone banging the faction loyalty drum lately?

(And I played EP for the majority of 4 years).

I guess some of us are tired of people jumping to the winning faction, when their faction starts getting behind, and causing population issues. The whole, can't beat em, join em, crap is getting old.

It wouldn't be so bad if they could figure out how to deal with population imbalance, but that's a little above their skill set apparently..

Elong

Aerrimus wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Aerrimus wrote: »

How about making battle spirit 6k max, but tie it to faction loyalty. Add 3k for each week playing the same faction. If you've been playing the same faction for 2 weeks you'll start at 6k so most new players won't be hurt. I've you decide to change factions, it will take 2 weeks to get back to max.

This would be a way to reward faction loyalty and still allow people to switch factions with little consequence.

What is up with everyone banging the faction loyalty drum lately?

(And I played EP for the majority of 4 years).

I guess some of us are tired of people jumping to the winning faction, when their faction starts getting behind, and causing population issues. The whole, can't beat em, join em, crap is getting old.

It wouldn't be so bad if they could figure out how to deal with population imbalance, but that's a little above their skill set apparently..

A lot of the good players jump on the losing team. The people on the bandwagon for the win are an issue though I agree on that.