Swift Trait Nerf: 6% (5% at purple) does not justify the stat loss any more.

HackTheMinotaur

Hello,

Let me start by saying that I play both stamina and magicka based builds in PVP. I am not biased towards any play style. Previously, the only traits I considered using, beyond arcane or robust, were Swift and Infused. On specific builds the loss of stats was justified for both traits. If I wanted to build a character specifically for speed (magicka or stamina) I could do so by using the swift trait. This provided an interesting choice in theory crafting, and I had to make a decision based on the kind of character I wanted: Speed or stats. If I had enough stats to spare I could supplement my build by sacrificing some stats for greater speed. I recently created a Magplar build (featured in the community guides last month no less) which took this approach. At the time I thought ZOS featured me because they were interested in unique theory crafting - with the Murkmire update I am not so sure anymore.

I agree that 10% at gold was too much. However, 6% will make this trait no longer usable. There needs to be a middle ground.

Consider:
1. Most players still cannot afford gold jewelry, making the nerf more equivalent to 5% speed per piece.
2. A build must give up 1200-1400 magicka or stamina to gain 5-6% movement speed per piece.
3. At 5-6% the difference in movement speed is negligible for running just one piece. Before, the greater movement speed meant you could run 1-2 swift and notice a different. Now, you will have to run all 3 to get a very small 15% increase before noticing any difference.
4. Stamina and Magicka pools are at a premium in No CP and battle grounds. To run 3 swift you would need to drop 4k+ of your max resource. On some of my stamina toons this would drop my max stamina to around 24k - this is an impossible drop to maintain competitive in BG's. No one will want to make this sacrifice - yet that is the only way to get any noticeable boost from Swift.
5. Consider what this drop would look like with another useful trait: Infused. As it currently stands, infused will raise your weapon/spell damage on a single piece from 174 to 279: an increase of 105 points. If the same nerf were to happen to the infused trait, the glyph would raise from 174 to 237, or an increase of only 63 WD. Would you sacrifice 1200-1400 max stats for a mere 63 WD or SD? I wouldn't.

A fairer cut would be 8% speed at gold, 7% at purple. I would still use the trait if this were the case.

Emma_Overload

I could have lived with 8% or even 7%, but 6% is just brutal. The value isn't there for 6%!

Nox_Noir

Completely agree. I think 10% were a really fair deal for the stats loss, but can also get behind why people think that made too much total speed available.

Another possible middle ground could be to add a small secondary bonus to Swift, in addition to the 6% speed, to make the trait worth slotting.
Things that would go well with the swift theme could be a small stat bonus of say ~300 stam, a little extra regen, or a small roll dodge cost or srpint cost reduction.

Kram8ion

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

Tonturri

Seconded. I was gonna try out Swift on my jewelry traits, but thank goodness I put it off so long if they don't un-nerf swift at least a little.

brandonv516

I have a few builds that run two blue quality Swift rings. That 16% increase will now be down to 8%. With the update, I'll spend the gold to make them purple. That will be a final 10%.

On my Magplar specifically I've already phased 1 ring out so I'm currently running 8%. I will put the other ring back on after the update and it will be a 2% increase once upgraded to purple.

On my Magblade I've done the same thing but after the update I'll go from 2 blue to 3 purple and get a 1% increase in speed.

I would suggest others try to make adjustments now and get used to less speed so when it hits you aren't completely thrown off.

The people who will be hurt the most are those currently running 3 gold Swift pieces (30% down to a maximum of 18%).

But will it be worth it after the patch? For me, yes.

Morgul667

Swift is now useless compared to other traits... i believe it got nerfed because of peoples complain so it was trendy to do so.. going back to triune and protective

Not a big deal but a shame we cannot play speedballs playstyle

VaranisArano

If the swift trait is messing with targeting other players, I dont expect ZOS to revert the nerf. I'll keep using it for my PVE farmer, but won't bother in PVP.

Morgul667

VaranisArano wrote: »

If the swift trait is messing with targeting other players, I dont expect ZOS to revert the nerf. I'll keep using it for my PVE farmer, but won't bother in PVP.

Agreed but once again zos just uses bandaids

PathwayM

Ya'll are nuts, 3x10% swift is double the 5 piece medium armor passive bonus lol... Swift was clearly over performing and is now more in line.

Silver_Strider

I only ever used it for Stealing anyways. I never felt the speed was worth the lost stats unless you build fully for speed, in which case, this nerf was justified because those builds were straight cancer.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

Waffennacht

PathwayM wrote: »

Ya'll are nuts, 3x10% swift is double the 5 piece medium armor passive bonus lol... Swift was clearly over performing and is now more in line.

In line with the other useless traits?

Edit: where 1600 Stam/mag was worth giving up for 20% increase, 1600 mag/Stam for minor expedition is not a wise decision

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

I think that Swift as a trait needed adjustment because it was getting beyond a joke. When someone is literally in your face and melee range skills will not target them correctly because of the constant movement at speed, then adjustment was needed.

Was what is essentially a 40% hit on the trait the right move? Probably a little too far.

My issue is that they hit skill based sources of expedition that were essential to survival. Then even hit the expedition from chains.... because we all know them super speedy MagDK's everywhere were a problem /sarcasm.

My solutions for this. Fix the targetting, put swift at gold to 8%, revert the expedition skill changes and then hit Rapids and speed pots so no permanent up time on major or no permanent use of rapids in ball groups.

Slight adjustments required..... NOT dropping rocks on one side to tip the scales.

WeyounTM

I totally agree with the OP. After this brutal nerf to the trait it hardly feels worth it at all. Which essentially leaves us with only the infused trait as a real alternative to anything that has been in the game since launch. And that might get a huge nerf hammer down the line too....because Argonians and infused potion cool down, right?

A much better way to go at it would have been to leave the trait as is and just don't let it stack with major expedition at all. This would leave people with the choice to either use speed pots ad nauseam or people like me that are just to "bad" or "stingy" to give up some stats to actually move faster.
With the current change it sucks all the fun out of the trait and as said by the OP it kills DIVERSITY.

SaucyMcSauceface

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

they are buffing the steed, not nerfing it.

"General:

- Your character will now have a faster knock-down animation when being dismounted.
- Increased the movement speed bonus from the Steed Mundus Stone to 10% from 5%.
- Combat pets will now take 0 damage while in a Dungeon, Trial, or Group Arena.
- Pets now inherit the caster’s Critical Resistance.
- The Swift Jewelry Trait now increases movement speed by 6% at max quality, previously 10%."

Zeromaz

If its not worth the stat loss, then go with the stats... duh

Fur_like_snow

Jewelry crafting was already ham fisted at launch with the 10-1 ratio of dust to plating making it expensive to create and upgrade set jewelry. I don’t see the point in the other traits in PvP except maybe blood thirsty and infused.

Now they devalue jewelry crafting more by nerfing swift to 6%. So either I take a 12% movement speed loss or pickup steed mundus or just spend more crystals to change to infused weapon damage. But how long before that is OP and needs changed?

On the flip side I’ll still be faster than most players even in heavy with the right build. Gotta wait and see what they’re gonna do with speed pots either way.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

SaucyMcSauceface wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

they are buffing the steed, not nerfing it.

"General:

- Your character will now have a faster knock-down animation when being dismounted.
- Increased the movement speed bonus from the Steed Mundus Stone to 10% from 5%.
- Combat pets will now take 0 damage while in a Dungeon, Trial, or Group Arena.
- Pets now inherit the caster’s Critical Resistance.
- The Swift Jewelry Trait now increases movement speed by 6% at max quality, previously 10%."

My bad. Reading comprehension is hard sometimes. Thanks for the correction.

ku5h

It was OP.

Minno

And it's not going to stop them all. There are already of speedy builds with minimal stat trade-off. They could run one Swift and be really fast .
So it punishes the classes that liked the build diversity Swift offered making mag versus stamina a deeper divide.

I'm not saying the speed sources. Zos will have to figure out for themselves lol.

technohic

The speed cap was OP with how the game cannot keep up with it. Not any of the means of getting there. Should have left swift as an option for slower classes to make a fair trade to get decent speed and just capped it lower to where it couldnt get to MC Hammer level of "Cant touch this."

I will say that even buffing the steed, it just puts it on about a level trade off of stats for swift, but I still dont think it worth while either way.

Kikke

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

Dude, they are buffing steed from 5% too 10%... Please check your facts before crying.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

kikkehs wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

Dude, they are buffing steed from 5% too 10%... Please check your facts before crying.

Read above or below.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaucyMcSauceface wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

they are buffing the steed, not nerfing it.

"General:

- Your character will now have a faster knock-down animation when being dismounted.
- Increased the movement speed bonus from the Steed Mundus Stone to 10% from 5%.
- Combat pets will now take 0 damage while in a Dungeon, Trial, or Group Arena.
- Pets now inherit the caster’s Critical Resistance.
- The Swift Jewelry Trait now increases movement speed by 6% at max quality, previously 10%."

My bad. Reading comprehension is hard sometimes. Thanks for the correction.

Real question, does this 10% get amped by divines? Because last I heard, only the health recovery got amped. If it did, this is a great move. You can almost get back the speed you lost by the Swift nerf by sacrificing a bit more stats and using divines. Only 2% difference.

Derra

Pretty quick to dismiss triune or defending in the initial post...

Then also the comparison to infused vs arcane/robust is pretty lacking. You can compare the value of weapon/spelldmg very easily to the value of stats. It´s not as easy to measure the value of something like movespeed. I think with the buff to steed at the same time zos is pretty close to achieving a good compromise.

Maryal

If someone wants a speed build, they will still build it regardless of the nerf to swift. The speed buff nerfs on skills/abilities was too harsh IMO for a variety of reasons. Even without a speed build, ball groups can keep speed buffs up with Retreating Maneuvers simply by having a few guildies dedicated to spamming it in strategic locations.

They nerfed swift too much ... 8% at gold would have been fine.

Stacking speed beyond 30% is what they should have focused on, at least in pvp.

GreenHere

I am convinced that the right way to handle the player move speed problem is a non-Sprint speed cap. Nerfing Swift and Expedition hurts the game and the players overall more than it helps; it takes away enjoyable aspects while adding nothing that couldn't be achieved more sensibly by other means.

Imagine if the "not-Sprinting soft cap" existed, but Swift was left at 10% and Expedition was left untouched. You could bring down the ridiculous and game-breaking in-combat speeds we're facing now, BUT you wouldn't be kicking people in the nuts for trying to get up to said speed cap. The same result is achieved, only without harming Sprint speeds (which already have a cap that works fine, btw) or taking away so much in trait/buff tradeoffs. AND you could always adjust the soft cap up/down in the future as was necessary, without having to go around individually tweaking sets/skills/buff/traits/mundus/whatnot...

Maryal

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

Dude, they are buffing steed from 5% too 10%... Please check your facts before crying.

Read above or below.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaucyMcSauceface wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

they are buffing the steed, not nerfing it.

"General:

- Your character will now have a faster knock-down animation when being dismounted.
- Increased the movement speed bonus from the Steed Mundus Stone to 10% from 5%.
- Combat pets will now take 0 damage while in a Dungeon, Trial, or Group Arena.
- Pets now inherit the caster’s Critical Resistance.
- The Swift Jewelry Trait now increases movement speed by 6% at max quality, previously 10%."

My bad. Reading comprehension is hard sometimes. Thanks for the correction.

Real question, does this 10% get amped by divines? Because last I heard, only the health recovery got amped. If it did, this is a great move. You can almost get back the speed you lost by the Swift nerf by sacrificing a bit more stats and using divines. Only 2% difference.

Right now on live the Steed 5% speed buff increases to 7% with all divines gold gear (I just checked). That would make a 10% Steed speed buff 14% ... yeah, I just might dust off my twice born star.

CP passive 2% movement speed (windrunning)

1 or 2 purple pieces of purple swift jewelry was what most people wearing swift wore. People gave up damage for mobility because damage didn't matter when you couldn't hit someone because your toon kept getting frozen as a result of root spams and snare spams on a laggy server. But, now that there has been so much attention drawn to speed as a result of these nerfs, people will actively look for (and be able to achieve) different ways of getting the same or better speed buff results.

The problem was never about having brief periods of major expedition, the problem was/is people who can actively pvp while sustaining speeds at or above 30% all the time.

jcm2606

GreenHere wrote: »

I am convinced that the right way to handle the player move speed problem is a non-Sprint speed cap. Nerfing Swift and Expedition hurts the game and the players overall more than it helps; it takes away enjoyable aspects while adding nothing that couldn't be achieved more sensibly by other means.

Imagine if the "not-Sprinting soft cap" existed, but Swift was left at 10% and Expedition was left untouched. You could bring down the ridiculous and game-breaking in-combat speeds we're facing now, BUT you wouldn't be kicking people in the nuts for trying to get up to said speed cap. The same result is achieved, only without harming Sprint speeds (which already have a cap that works fine, btw) or taking away so much in trait/buff tradeoffs. AND you could always adjust the soft cap up/down in the future as was necessary, without having to go around individually tweaking sets/skills/buff/traits/mundus/whatnot...

Agree.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Maryal wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

Dude, they are buffing steed from 5% too 10%... Please check your facts before crying.

Read above or below.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaucyMcSauceface wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

they are buffing the steed, not nerfing it.

"General:

- Your character will now have a faster knock-down animation when being dismounted.
- Increased the movement speed bonus from the Steed Mundus Stone to 10% from 5%.
- Combat pets will now take 0 damage while in a Dungeon, Trial, or Group Arena.
- Pets now inherit the caster’s Critical Resistance.
- The Swift Jewelry Trait now increases movement speed by 6% at max quality, previously 10%."

My bad. Reading comprehension is hard sometimes. Thanks for the correction.

Real question, does this 10% get amped by divines? Because last I heard, only the health recovery got amped. If it did, this is a great move. You can almost get back the speed you lost by the Swift nerf by sacrificing a bit more stats and using divines. Only 2% difference.

Right now on live the Steed 5% speed buff increases to 7% with all divines gold gear (I just checked). That would make a 10% Steed speed buff 14% ... yeah, I just might dust off my twice born star.

That is great, though it would be 15%. 10*1.525 (7.5%*7).

Maryal

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

Dude, they are buffing steed from 5% too 10%... Please check your facts before crying.

Read above or below.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaucyMcSauceface wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

It's just made swift trait useless now and steed mundus more appealing and therefore twice born star will probably get more use because who wants to go back to slow

They are halfing the steed from 10% toc5% as well.

they are buffing the steed, not nerfing it.

"General:

- Your character will now have a faster knock-down animation when being dismounted.
- Increased the movement speed bonus from the Steed Mundus Stone to 10% from 5%.
- Combat pets will now take 0 damage while in a Dungeon, Trial, or Group Arena.
- Pets now inherit the caster’s Critical Resistance.
- The Swift Jewelry Trait now increases movement speed by 6% at max quality, previously 10%."

My bad. Reading comprehension is hard sometimes. Thanks for the correction.

Real question, does this 10% get amped by divines? Because last I heard, only the health recovery got amped. If it did, this is a great move. You can almost get back the speed you lost by the Swift nerf by sacrificing a bit more stats and using divines. Only 2% difference.

Right now on live the Steed 5% speed buff increases to 7% with all divines gold gear (I just checked). That would make a 10% Steed speed buff 14% ... yeah, I just might dust off my twice born star.

That is great, though it would be 15%. 10*1.525 (7.5%*7).

Your math is probably right ... I just guestimated after I saw the 5% Steed Speed buff go to 7% once I put on all divine gold armor. But, even at 14%, that plus a 2% from windrunning would put the buff at 16% and I'm happy with that.