Nightblade tanking with damage shields - LF feedback on 2 possible builds

Jim_Pipp

Can you please help me choose or improve one of the builds below. Ever since the first PTS patch notes I've been obsessed with finding a way to save Nightblade tanking, which was amazing because it plays more like a damage dealer than a tank. My (soon to be ex) NB tank used Ebon and Bahara's curse, and magicka sustain was the main pain point. With the upcoming changes I
have come up with something new built around high stamina regeneration and the damage shields which cost stamina.

While built around some of the strengths and weaknesses of Nightblades, the principles of these builds translate to any other class (and may work better there). The principles of these build ideas are
1) Ready for Nerfmire, able to run VET dlc dungeons with PUGS, so self-sustaining and self-healing.
2) You can have less health if you have enough stam recovery to spam damage shields. Who needs Magicka?
3) If you are spamming damage shields you only need to block the really big hits. Who needs block cost reduction?
4) 30k health, 30k stam, 3.5k+ stam recovery, and near the resistance cap.

Maximise Stam regen
Race is Bosmer, werewolf. Mundus stone is Serpent with 4 pieces of divines. Drink is dubious cameron throne. Major endurance comes from stamina potions.

Build 1 - The fortified stamblade - it's pretty selfish
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=89975

2H/5M/0L - We get major ward and major resolve from the monster helm, because it would be awful trying to maintain those essential buffs in medium armour.

5 x Fortified Brass
5 x BonePirates tatters
2 x Mighty Chudan

Build 2 - The Ebon Pirate - A bit less selfish, but also less able to sustain or add damage.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=89127

5H/1M/1L - this is because we actually need a bit of magicka regen to cast a shadow ability (Dark cloak) every 14 seconds to maintain the major ward and major resolve.

5 x Ebon armory
5 x Bone pirates tatters
1 x Mighty Chudan
1 x Pirate skeleton

Skills - The skills are the same for both builds.

Bar 1 - Sword and shield - Infused weakening enchant. Sturdy trait on shield (because we will try to only block on this bar).
Pierce Armor
Shielded assault (in tougher fights this will heroic slash, but I absolutely love gap closers and the 4.5k damage shield fits the build)
Spiked bone shield (may go for the other morph?)
Dark Cloak (nice heal, but perhaps vigor for more group support?)
Introspection (we need a psiijic ability for the free damage shield when blocking, and this ability helps if we have depleted stamina after a period of sustained blocking).

Ultimate - Aggressive warhorn... obviously

Bar 2 - 2 Handed greatword - Infused crusher enchant
Razor caltrops (effectively an AoE taunt and a little crowd control and damage)
Forward momentum (this was going to be for snare removal, but the recent nerf notes make me wonder if it is worth it)
Brawler (an underappreciated ability which is cheap, can give an amazing damage shield and applies a Dot which will ensure the crusher enchant procs on cooldown,
Relentless focus (our source of minor endurance, although the bow proc and minor beserk are also nice)
Dark Shade (source of minor maim. In tough fights this will be swapped to the ranged taunt inner fire, and heroic slash added to front bar, but I love the shade!)

Ultimate - Pack Leader - this is mostly for the passive stam regen, but against bosses that cannot be taunted or where there are lots of trash mobs (like the beginning of most dungeons) then going werewolf and adding more DPS is gonna be hella fun.

Other gearsets
I experimented with Alkosh, powerful assault and Hircines Veneer, but I found it too hard to reach the target health, stam, recovery and resistance stats I wanted.

Known issues
Very little crowd control
Very low ultigen (for a nightblade)

Thanks so much for reading till here. I would love any and all feedback on these suggested builds, whether about skills, gear, CP or just to say you would vote to kick any tank that dares to turn into a werewolf!

Peekachu99

Leeching and Bahraha’s still can’t be beat for solo tanking, provides passive snare, and the sets fit really well within the NB theme. With a stamina Mundus and Dubious, you’ll have more than enough sustain for shields and you’ll never need a heal. Even works well enough in PVP so long as you fight on your circles (adjust the color to something garish and it’s super easy to see where to stand). Use whatever monster helm you like for flavour.

Also, Bahraha’s still comes in Medium, you just have to search hard for it. So you have more flexibility with that setup.

If you’re determined to use shields and offer more group support, then swap one set (Leeching, tbh) for Imperium.

Rex-Umbra

Leeching imperium and baharas are all fun nb tank sets but feel weak compared newer sets.

josiahva

I have a shield spamming tank using Plague Doctor, Imperium, and Chudan(I could probably swap Chudan for Blood Spawn if I didnt think that Igneous shield was a better use of magicka than continually casting a spell that does the same thing as Chudan). I wouldnt touch a shield-tank if you arent a DK though, shields on yourself are virtually worthless as tank....the point of my shield spamming tank is that it spams shields on the entire group using Igneous, Bone Surge(to use bone surge the most effectively your group must have the presence of mind to hit the spinal surge synergy...which is a rarity in pugs), The Imperium proc, and Barrier as front bar ultimate...in the right situations I can hit 50k+ shields on the entire group if they are on top of the spinal surge synergy, and the Imperium proc is nice because it will proc when you are otherwise disabled(pinned by Dranos in vCoS as an example). Plague doctor is required for this build though because all your shields are based off of health, so you want to hit 50k health to be effective(not because you need 50k health too often, but because it strengthens your group spammed shields). The nice thing is that with this build you constantly have shields of 20k+ up on yourself so you only need to block dangerous attacks, in the meantime you can light attack, heavy attack for resource and ult generation, chains in enemies, etc etc. It isnt a damage build by any means...but the fact is, if you want a tank capable of difficult content of vet DLC dungeons or trials....stop trying to do damage with it. I have a tank capable of dishing out 20k+ damage while tanking....the downside is he isnt capable of vet DLC dungeons

Sparr0w

You know regen is disabled while blocking right?...

I run ebon/alkosh, 1pc warden 1pc chokethorn, S&B/Lightning (both crusher). Jewellery all triune 2x shield play 1x mag regen.

25 health/11 magicka/28 stamina

Pierce/Heroic/Cloak/Funnel(might change to Absorb next patch probably)/Leash//Soul Harvest
Blockade/Inner/Refreshing/Siphoning/Mirage//War Horn

At the minute I run Crushing both bars, after this patch I'm going to swap back bar enchant to absorb stamina.

Tanked every dungeon normal and vet hardmode (apart from new ones), every trial normal (AA/SO/HRC vet, MoL up to twins vet).

Definitely still going to be viable, just losing any form of edge we had over other classes.

Jim_Pipp

josiahva wrote: »

I have a shield spamming tank using Plague Doctor, Imperium, and Chudan(I could probably swap Chudan for Blood Spawn if I didnt think that Igneous shield was a better use of magicka than continually casting a spell that does the same thing as Chudan). I wouldnt touch a shield-tank if you arent a DK though, shields on yourself are virtually worthless as tank....the point of my shield spamming tank is that it spams shields on the entire group using Igneous, Bone Surge(to use bone surge the most effectively your group must have the presence of mind to hit the spinal surge synergy...which is a rarity in pugs), The Imperium proc, and Barrier as front bar ultimate...in the right situations I can hit 50k+ shields on the entire group if they are on top of the spinal surge synergy, and the Imperium proc is nice because it will proc when you are otherwise disabled(pinned by Dranos in vCoS as an example). Plague doctor is required for this build though because all your shields are based off of health, so you want to hit 50k health to be effective(not because you need 50k health too often, but because it strengthens your group spammed shields). The nice thing is that with this build you constantly have shields of 20k+ up on yourself so you only need to block dangerous attacks, in the meantime you can light attack, heavy attack for resource and ult generation, chains in enemies, etc etc. It isnt a damage build by any means...but the fact is, if you want a tank capable of difficult content of vet DLC dungeons or trials....stop trying to do damage with it. I have a tank capable of dishing out 20k+ damage while tanking....the downside is he isnt capable of vet DLC dungeons

That was the definition of insightful!

@josiahva You clearly know your builds! Can you tell me more about why you said "shields on yourself are virtually worthless on a tank," because once I understand that there is no point continuing down this theorycrafting path... I've never tried this kind of tanking before.

When shields start having resistances in the new patch I was imagining that they are like an extra 10k health bar with max resistances stopping most damage from reaching my actual health bar. Effectively it is an extension to my health bar that I can burst heal, and with enough stam regen I can recast it every second if necessary.

The feedback so far has definitely made me decide to dig out my set of imperium and do some testing with it; I had overlooked it because I don't imagine it procs if all the damage was mitigated by a damage shield, so I thought it would only be useful if something went wrong and I wasn't able to maintain shields.

Peekachu99

Sparr0w wrote: »

You know regen is disabled while blocking right?...

I run ebon/alkosh, 1pc warden 1pc chokethorn, S&B/Lightning (both crusher). Jewellery all triune 2x shield play 1x mag regen.

25 health/11 magicka/28 stamina

Pierce/Heroic/Cloak/Funnel(might change to Absorb next patch probably)/Leash//Soul Harvest
Blockade/Inner/Refreshing/Siphoning/Mirage//War Horn

At the minute I run Crushing both bars, after this patch I'm going to swap back bar enchant to absorb stamina.

Tanked every dungeon normal and vet hardmode (apart from new ones), every trial normal (AA/SO/HRC vet, MoL up to twins vet).

Definitely still going to be viable, just losing any form of edge we had over other classes.

Block tanks have become increasingly unnecessary in any and all content. They have some place in PVP, but even there you can wear them down pretty quick with aoes (can no longer be dodged) and light attacks. Next patch with the removal of dodge will accelerate this decay.

As a tank, I find you should be weaving and using abilities. Damage mitigation is so high that you’re wasting GCDs by just standing there like a meatbag. If you’re set on traditional tanking, you can even Mediate-tank now for near 100% major prot uptime, then block cancel when charge attacks hit. Really, the only thing you need to block are boss charge attacks—even in Trials. Regen from a Netch (if you’re a Warden) continues while blocking, too, btw. So not all regen is affected. Witchman can provide a similar bonus, but needs corpses. Overall problem with block tanking is you’re utterly useless if it comes down to you and needing to execute a boss or to provide utility other than meat-bagging and rezzing (which is a time waster and dps loss). Building a bit into dps/ utility is super easy these days with CP and gear. Most tanks can do 15K without trying or sacrificing anything. And more dps means less margin for error, especially in four mans.

Food for thought! (I’ve cleared every vet and HM in the game save CR—skin is too ugly to bother—without block tanking).

Peekachu99

Re: Imperium. Anyone on PTS test whether it’s the tank or the recipients’ defences that now affect shield mitigation? Could make the set somewhat interesting in Murkmire if it’s the former. This would be the same mechanic as with Igneous or Barrier if anyone has tested that.

code65536

I'm going to repost what I had posted in another thread:

As a tank, your biggest, most important source of mitigation is your BLOCK, and shields do not benefit from block mitigation.

Here's a test that I did on the PTS. My tank is wearing its general PvE tanking gear (Ebon/Alkosh/Earthgore) with 29K spell resist with Major Ward up. I'm dueling a testing partner who hits me with Funnel Health, and here are what the non-crit hits look like:

• Damage with no shield and no block: 1038 to health
• Damage with a shield: 1038 absorbed by shield (as expected, shield damage is now equal to health damage)
• Damage with a shield while blocking: 1038 absorbed by shield
• Damage with no shield while blocking: 291 to health
• Damage naked: 1427 (with mitigation from just my CP and Scaled Armor class passive; Major Ward was not up)

So first, block mitigation does not apply to shields.

Second, getting all that resistance by putting on my tank armor and activating my Major Ward buff only reduced the damage by 27% compared to taking the hit while naked (but I still had CP). When you hear experienced tanks tell you that resistance numbers aren't that important and that you don't need to worry about hitting the resist cap, this is why.

Third, activating block reduced the damage taken by 72% compared to taking the hit while armored but not blocking, but it only works on damage that hits your health...

Shield tanking works fine in older content. Then again, pretty much anything works fine in older content. But in vet DLC dungeons, shield tanking is laughably bad. When you're holding the three copies of Earthgore in vBRF, and each of them will do a heavy attack on you with a base damage value in the ballpark of 100K and are all must-block attacks, you'll find that shields will do very little to help you survive.

jypcy

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I have a shield spamming tank using Plague Doctor, Imperium, and Chudan(I could probably swap Chudan for Blood Spawn if I didnt think that Igneous shield was a better use of magicka than continually casting a spell that does the same thing as Chudan). I wouldnt touch a shield-tank if you arent a DK though, shields on yourself are virtually worthless as tank....the point of my shield spamming tank is that it spams shields on the entire group using Igneous, Bone Surge(to use bone surge the most effectively your group must have the presence of mind to hit the spinal surge synergy...which is a rarity in pugs), The Imperium proc, and Barrier as front bar ultimate...in the right situations I can hit 50k+ shields on the entire group if they are on top of the spinal surge synergy, and the Imperium proc is nice because it will proc when you are otherwise disabled(pinned by Dranos in vCoS as an example). Plague doctor is required for this build though because all your shields are based off of health, so you want to hit 50k health to be effective(not because you need 50k health too often, but because it strengthens your group spammed shields). The nice thing is that with this build you constantly have shields of 20k+ up on yourself so you only need to block dangerous attacks, in the meantime you can light attack, heavy attack for resource and ult generation, chains in enemies, etc etc. It isnt a damage build by any means...but the fact is, if you want a tank capable of difficult content of vet DLC dungeons or trials....stop trying to do damage with it. I have a tank capable of dishing out 20k+ damage while tanking....the downside is he isnt capable of vet DLC dungeons

That was the definition of insightful!

@josiahva You clearly know your builds! Can you tell me more about why you said "shields on yourself are virtually worthless on a tank," because once I understand that there is no point continuing down this theorycrafting path... I've never tried this kind of tanking before.

When shields start having resistances in the new patch I was imagining that they are like an extra 10k health bar with max resistances stopping most damage from reaching my actual health bar. Effectively it is an extension to my health bar that I can burst heal, and with enough stam regen I can recast it every second if necessary.

The feedback so far has definitely made me decide to dig out my set of imperium and do some testing with it; I had overlooked it because I don't imagine it procs if all the damage was mitigated by a damage shield, so I thought it would only be useful if something went wrong and I wasn't able to maintain shields.

Shields, last I checked, don’t receive block mitigation, which is a major source of mitigation. The resists added to them definitely do make them more effective on a tank (which likely had high resists anyway), though. I think depending on how much you rely on block will determine how much worth shields have to a tank now. Shields might be decently potent when you can play as a dps tank and never/rarely block, but they won’t really be a sufficient mitigation/survival mechanism while tanking some of the newer dlc content that features many and frequent attacks that should be blocked.

Only comment I’d add is that because stam regen is disabled/reset while blocking, focusing on stam regen might not be the way to go to sustain both damage skills and shields. Again, this depends on how often you block. For situations I need to/builds I want to, I tend to build more for stam cost redux (e.g., glyphs, armor traits) and stam procs (e.g., witchman, mazzatun) instead of stam regen. I believe your net stam return can be highest from building into stam regen, but if you’re blocking too often (including getting bashes or block cancelling animations) then you won’t be getting as much out of your stam regen.

josiahva

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I have a shield spamming tank using Plague Doctor, Imperium, and Chudan(I could probably swap Chudan for Blood Spawn if I didnt think that Igneous shield was a better use of magicka than continually casting a spell that does the same thing as Chudan). I wouldnt touch a shield-tank if you arent a DK though, shields on yourself are virtually worthless as tank....the point of my shield spamming tank is that it spams shields on the entire group using Igneous, Bone Surge(to use bone surge the most effectively your group must have the presence of mind to hit the spinal surge synergy...which is a rarity in pugs), The Imperium proc, and Barrier as front bar ultimate...in the right situations I can hit 50k+ shields on the entire group if they are on top of the spinal surge synergy, and the Imperium proc is nice because it will proc when you are otherwise disabled(pinned by Dranos in vCoS as an example). Plague doctor is required for this build though because all your shields are based off of health, so you want to hit 50k health to be effective(not because you need 50k health too often, but because it strengthens your group spammed shields). The nice thing is that with this build you constantly have shields of 20k+ up on yourself so you only need to block dangerous attacks, in the meantime you can light attack, heavy attack for resource and ult generation, chains in enemies, etc etc. It isnt a damage build by any means...but the fact is, if you want a tank capable of difficult content of vet DLC dungeons or trials....stop trying to do damage with it. I have a tank capable of dishing out 20k+ damage while tanking....the downside is he isnt capable of vet DLC dungeons

That was the definition of insightful!

@josiahva You clearly know your builds! Can you tell me more about why you said "shields on yourself are virtually worthless on a tank," because once I understand that there is no point continuing down this theorycrafting path... I've never tried this kind of tanking before.

When shields start having resistances in the new patch I was imagining that they are like an extra 10k health bar with max resistances stopping most damage from reaching my actual health bar. Effectively it is an extension to my health bar that I can burst heal, and with enough stam regen I can recast it every second if necessary.

The feedback so far has definitely made me decide to dig out my set of imperium and do some testing with it; I had overlooked it because I don't imagine it procs if all the damage was mitigated by a damage shield, so I thought it would only be useful if something went wrong and I wasn't able to maintain shields.

Ok, self-shielding on a tank isnt worthless per-se, with or without resistances...but it doesn't do anything to help the group. This is why a shield tank should be a DK(igneous) with high health. As a tank you don't need shields to survive yourself, heavy armor and blocking is enough, and some self-heals, and not having shields means you don't have to put any CP into Bastion. If you feel you must have some type of self-shield, slot a Psyjiic ability and use the Psyjiic passive, that on its own should be enough to supplement your defenses. You could make a self-shielding unkillable tank without a problem with virtually any class, but to focus that much on your own survival you give up too much group utility. What good does an extra 8k damage shield on yourself do when you arent having any trouble surviving to begin with when you could be wearing Alkosh and increasing group DPS, or Ebon and increasing group health? There is nothing wrong with a shield tank, but it should be focused on sharing shields with the group...and for that role Nightblade just doesnt bring as much utility as a DK. If you wanted to add a bit of passive damage on a shield build though, you could always use infernal guardian as the monster set.

jypcy

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Re: Imperium. Anyone on PTS test whether it’s the tank or the recipients’ defences that now affect shield mitigation? Could make the set somewhat interesting in Murkmire if it’s the former. This would be the same mechanic as with Igneous or Barrier if anyone has tested that.

I sincerely doubt that zos would’ve done the coding to make the shield’s resists depend on who casted it instead of who it’s on. I’ve not tested it so it’s an open question, but I’m guessing it’s the latter of your scenarios.

code65536

jypcy wrote: »

I think depending on how much you rely on block will determine how much worth shields have to a tank now. It sounds like you’re not planning on relying on block too often, so shields might be pretty potent for your playstyle.

That's a fine playstyle if you're in vWGT. It'll fail in places like vMHK or vBRF. And it'll be comically bad in the new vBRP arena.

jypcy

code65536 wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

I think depending on how much you rely on block will determine how much worth shields have to a tank now. It sounds like you’re not planning on relying on block too often, so shields might be pretty potent for your playstyle.

That's a fine if you're in vWGT. It'll fail in places like vMHK or vBRF. And it'll be comically bad in the new vBRP arena.

That’s true, I forgot about the criterion for running in vet dlc dungeons. Clarified original post.

Jim_Pipp

A huge thanks to all who gave feedback, I like to hear people's ideas about my novel builds before I make them, and in the past feedback like this made me fundamentally rethink my ideas.

In this case I have really heard that there is no substitute for blocking, so I will look at compromising between Stam Regen and block cost reduction instead of naively hoping damage shields can almost replace blocking.

I still have faith in this build, maybe just because I really want to believe nightblade tanks are not going to be as obsolete as I think they will be next patch.

Sparr0w

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

You know regen is disabled while blocking right?...

I run ebon/alkosh, 1pc warden 1pc chokethorn, S&B/Lightning (both crusher). Jewellery all triune 2x shield play 1x mag regen.

25 health/11 magicka/28 stamina

Pierce/Heroic/Cloak/Funnel(might change to Absorb next patch probably)/Leash//Soul Harvest
Blockade/Inner/Refreshing/Siphoning/Mirage//War Horn

At the minute I run Crushing both bars, after this patch I'm going to swap back bar enchant to absorb stamina.

Tanked every dungeon normal and vet hardmode (apart from new ones), every trial normal (AA/SO/HRC vet, MoL up to twins vet).

Definitely still going to be viable, just losing any form of edge we had over other classes.

Block tanks have become increasingly unnecessary in any and all content. They have some place in PVP, but even there you can wear them down pretty quick with aoes (can no longer be dodged) and light attacks. Next patch with the removal of dodge will accelerate this decay.

As a tank, I find you should be weaving and using abilities. Damage mitigation is so high that you’re wasting GCDs by just standing there like a meatbag. If you’re set on traditional tanking, you can even Mediate-tank now for near 100% major prot uptime, then block cancel when charge attacks hit. Really, the only thing you need to block are boss charge attacks—even in Trials. Regen from a Netch (if you’re a Warden) continues while blocking, too, btw. So not all regen is affected. Witchman can provide a similar bonus, but needs corpses. Overall problem with block tanking is you’re utterly useless if it comes down to you and needing to execute a boss or to provide utility other than meat-bagging and rezzing (which is a time waster and dps loss). Building a bit into dps/ utility is super easy these days with CP and gear. Most tanks can do 15K without trying or sacrificing anything. And more dps means less margin for error, especially in four mans.

Food for thought! (I’ve cleared every vet and HM in the game save CR—skin is too ugly to bother—without block tanking).

Agreed, just pointing out that if you build for stamina recovery and go into a fight where you're blocking a lot you're screwed, but building for magicka recovery you cant go wrong.

Regen from Siphoning, Netch, DK Passives, Rune Focus will all continue whilst blocking since they're not your character regen but recovery from skills, your character regen is completely disabled while holding block and up to 2 seconds after.

Not necessarily I play a traditional block tank most of the time since I'm lazy (even on a nb, but I weave all skills and heavy attack when there's nothing to do), can still do about 5-8k dps from blockade, path & weaving at all times, then when needed drop a soul harvest and weave funnel on top of that. Another reason for that is I run 5/1/1 for more stats & 2x regen monster sets rather than warden so my resistance sits around 24-25k.