What is with the ebon set?

JaselUmena

So I've been around for a while now and many of the tanking advice I read includes using the Ebon Armory set. I really can't see how is this set remotely useful when compared to other heavy sets, or even sanctuary jewelry + weapons.

Is 1'1k HP that important in a group to give up on an entire 5 piece set? Cause this one really is boring.

Sparr0w

1.1k + CP + racial passives + toughness from warden/warhorn.

The extra HP can really mean life or death in most cases and allows DD's to spec more into damage.

Also the HP boost allows you as a tank to put more into magicka/stamina.

EDIT: Say it's 1.5k per person, times that by 12 and you'll see that it's an effective set.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

JaselUmena wrote: »

So I've been around for a while now and many of the tanking advice I read includes using the Ebon Armory set. I really can't see how is this set remotely useful when compared to other heavy sets, or even sanctuary jewelry + weapons.

Is 1'1k HP that important in a group to give up on an entire 5 piece set? Cause this one really is boring.

yes.

JaselUmena

Sparr0w wrote: »

1.1k + CP + racial passives + toughness from warden/warhorn.

Thanks for the reply, but how does CP boost your max HP? I don't think I've seen a max HP star yet.

Side note, I can see how 10% HP on a 15k hp dd is useful, but this set really feels underwhelming for me as a tank when I could be wearing stuff like imperium instead. Is there any more interesting, yet viable set that a tank can wear?

witchdoctor

The first 300 CP or so boost attributes inherently. Its not a 'star' or anything that requires assignment of individual points.

Tank gear is 2 broad types: selfish and support.

Ebon is a classic, staple, all-round good support set. It fits exactly what tanks in ESO do: support the group.

Alkosh would be another example, as it provides added penetration helping the group do more overall DPS.

Plague Doctor would be a classic selfish set. It adds to your health and health taken. It benefits the tank, and the tank alone.

John_Falstaff

@JaselUmena , if you have Imperium on your mind, then you're thinking of tank doing the thing normally associating with tanks, and that's surviving. In ESO, situation is somewhat peculiar, because survivability is already good and so tanking is combined with support role. That's why you'll see tanks running Ebon (allowing DDs to spec for more damage or just be more survivable - it's flexible like that) or even medium Alkosh (which straight increases group damage). There probably are places that force tanks to fully gear up for 'selfish' defense (wouldn't know which - I'm not playing tank, just letting it be known), but not a whole lot.

witchdoctor

Tanks need multiple sets to deal with the circumstances at hand. Some trials need the tank to be selfish; others, not so much. Or, if the tank is new, then selfish allows them time to learn whilst having some give for errors.

There is no 'I have all the gear I need now' with tanks. Certainly not with just one set.

Streega

Ebon is the best base (not basic!) set, good for the tank, good for the group. You can pair it with other sets depending on a trial: Alkosh/Torugs for more support, Dragon/Galenwe for more damage, Plague Doctor/Imperium for more survivability (St Olms, axes in AA). But honestly you don't have to strictly follow BiS, just try all combinations and see what is best for you. I use heavy Kagrenac + War Maiden + Iceheart on my support Ice magTank (off tank), and I love it My main stamina tank wears Ebon though.

MaxJrFTW

It's for trials, useless otherwise.

With that said, as someone who comes from WoW i just don't see the value of the set. Increasing the HP of the group by 6-7% can't be more important than mitigating 20% more dmg right? Idk, i guess things don't work the same way in ESO.

JaselUmena

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's for trials, useless otherwise.

With that said, as someone who comes from WoW i just don't see the value of the set. Increasing the HP of the group by 6-7% can't be more important than mitigating 20% more dmg right? Idk, i guess things don't work the same way in ESO.

I come from a different mmo, and I was more of the opinon that higher hp on the tank = higher party shield (I am used to damage dealers being in range of support abilities in that other game), but I suppose that 10% hp is significant enough to not let it pass. I thank you all for your input.

Sparr0w

JaselUmena wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

1.1k + CP + racial passives + toughness from warden/warhorn.

Thanks for the reply, but how does CP boost your max HP? I don't think I've seen a max HP star yet.

Side note, I can see how 10% HP on a 15k hp dd is useful, but this set really feels underwhelming for me as a tank when I could be wearing stuff like imperium instead. Is there any more interesting, yet viable set that a tank can wear?

@JaselUmena The first 100cp you assign into each colour CP tree increases your max stats by up to 20% (e.g. 100 points into red tree = 20% more health, blue = 20% magicka, green = 20% stamina)

Donny_Vito

Ebon is a good support set. I also like some selfish sets (Ironblood, Warrior Poet, Green Pact) because they allow for extreme survive-ability. But you can usually get max damage reduction from support sets, CP, and a good monster set. Try looking at https://woeler.eu/ as it has a lot of good info about tanking and builds.

Rungar

as a tank, as long as your alive its not selfish. As a dk tank your group shield is dependent on your health, not theirs so if your spamming that, and everyone does, plague doctor will give a similar result as ebon. Just a thought.

ebon is a trial set and isn't needed for dungeons at all. Same with alkosh and torugs. Those that wear those sets have much more support in a trial than you will ever have in a random pug.

plan accordingly.

VaranisArano

Ebon is useful because of the benefits it gives your group, which goes beyond the extra health.

1. 1kish extra health per player.

2. Its the cheapest way to get health for a DD. The ideal health for a DD is about 18k ish. This lets them (barely) survive some mechanics. So DDs want about 18k health. Either They can get 1k of that from one tabk wearing Ebon...or they have to make sacrifices with their build to get to 18k, which means less DPS.

So essentially, one tank wearing Ebon is the most efficient way for players in the group to reach the optimum health without having to give up DPS potential in order to get there.



Now, Ebon is best in trials. Its good in dungeons, but not essential. Basically 12k extra health instead of 4k, and the DD build requirements arent so min-maxed in dungeons. So if you want to run a damage mitigation set in a dungeon, go for it. But for trials, the vast majority of DDs will build with the expectation that at least one tank is running Ebon so they dont have to sacrifice DPS potential to make up that 1k health.

I run Ebon in dungeons anyway because I have it and I often run with a rather squishy DD friend who appreciates it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Easiest way to think about it. In this game, support players (tanks and healers) typically wear sets that support/boost DPS as much as possible because DPS ends up being the limiting factor on score. DPS want to go as glassy as possible, i.e., do as much damage while still being able to survive. Well, a truly min/maxed DPS has health at a level that is borderline scary. The 1.1k health might not seem like a lot, but its enough to get out of the scary range, and ends up being 8.8k of health for all your DPS before modifiers. So, you can have one tank wear one set, or have all 8 of your damage dealers slide 1k or so out of magic into health. Once you compare it across a whole trial group, you can see that this does actually does act as a damage buff.

db0ssman

As a general rule, be careful about relying on META sets/builds in most content in the game. META sets tend to make certain assumptions about the group you are in, like that they have certain builds, can utilize those builds perfectly, and that you can utilize the set you have on perfectly. Ebon is most impactful with skilled groups doing a trial because it is a small bonus to everyone. If you end up with a dungeon pug, it is pretty unlikely they will utilize ebon that well. When a pug dps messes up in a dungeon, it is very likely going to be a severe mistake where 1 to 1.5k health won't matter. Healers can use more expensive single point heals in a dungeon like Breath of Life or Healthy Offering which means they are going to be less strained on resources to heal a dungeon and pushing low health situations less.

If the healer is using off meta sets (so not a templar), they are going to have a suite of tools that could make such a small bonus less needed. The DD also could just have given themselves 20k+ health if they are joining a PUG with no idea what each person is going to have. In that case, it could be better to have a more impactful set with abilities that could be redundant with META builds. Also, as pointed out above, if you are just learning the role, it is probably better to have a selfish build that helps you survive than a META build which could be better in high-level play that gets you killed.

profundidob16_ESO

JaselUmena wrote: »

So I've been around for a while now and many of the tanking advice I read includes using the Ebon Armory set. I really can't see how is this set remotely useful when compared to other heavy sets, or even sanctuary jewelry + weapons.

Is 1'1k HP that important in a group to give up on an entire 5 piece set? Cause this one really is boring.

in a trial: YES
in a 4-man dungeon: no but still useful. Often better sets exist

Keep in mind that a so called "selfish" set like plague doctor gives the extra 3K health to you instead of spreading it out into 1K to each other group member but may prove to be still prove more benefitial to the group.

If the dps come into a tough vet hm DLC dungeon with reasonable health or turn out to be survivable through whatever means while you as a tank are getting 1-shot...please swap out ebon for plague doctor by all means.

there are a few essential tank sets you want to be farming to be able to mix and match on the fly for any given situation:

ebon: trial support (extra health for others)
plague doctor : make yourself beefy (extra health for yourself)
torugs pact : trial support. (max debuffing of enemies). Note that before Murkmire the "Roar of Alkosh" set is considered BIS for this exact purpose but that set becomes obsolete the second Murkmire drops so don't bother starting to farming it now. Soon all tanks will stash their alkosh set in the bank to collect dust while Torugs you can craft yourself in 10min right now

combine with the monster set of choice.

There are more 'useful' sets but these 3 above are quite essential, to be combined with whatever flavor set depending on the situation. If you are starting out and want to complete one 'golden outfit' that gets you through any content in the game and serve's as a ticket into any raid: 5piece ebon +5piece torug's pact + 2piece monster set

John_Falstaff

@profundidob16_ESO , it's a little off topic, but this thing you mentioned have caught my eye, and I often skim over tanking threads too fast to catch last changes - what will Murkmire change to make Alkosh obsolete?

Sparr0w

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Easiest way to think about it. In this game, support players (tanks and healers) typically wear sets that support/boost DPS as much as possible because DPS ends up being the limiting factor on score. DPS want to go as glassy as possible, i.e., do as much damage while still being able to survive. Well, a truly min/maxed DPS has health at a level that is borderline scary. The 1.1k health might not seem like a lot, but its enough to get out of the scary range, and ends up being 8.8k of health for all your DPS before modifiers. So, you can have one tank wear one set, or have all 8 of your damage dealers slide 1k or so out of magic into health. Once you compare it across a whole trial group, you can see that this does actually does act as a damage buff.

Can agree, I run with 15.1k most of the time, unless mechanics will one shot me with that, then I swap to valkyn or blue food & a regen glyph.

profundidob16_ESO

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@profundidob16_ESO , it's a little off topic, but this thing you mentioned have caught my eye, and I often skim over tanking threads too fast to catch last changes - what will Murkmire change to make Alkosh obsolete?

in trials that typically require 2 tanks there are alot of situations where the bigger torugs crusher enchants gets 'overwritten' by the other tanks non-torugs crusher echant, effectively killing its benefit at least partially. For this reason Alkosh is bis currently since it does not suffer from that. Murkmire mechanics will prevent this overwriting, making Torugs BIS meta

this will be awesome btw as new tank players will be able to gear up properly from the start with minimal effort

Sparr0w

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

JaselUmena wrote: »

So I've been around for a while now and many of the tanking advice I read includes using the Ebon Armory set. I really can't see how is this set remotely useful when compared to other heavy sets, or even sanctuary jewelry + weapons.

Is 1'1k HP that important in a group to give up on an entire 5 piece set? Cause this one really is boring.

in a trial: YES
in a 4-man dungeon: no but still useful. Often better sets exist

Keep in mind that a so called "selfish" set like plague doctor gives the extra 3K health to you instead of spreading it out into 1K to each other group member but may prove to be still prove more benefitial to the group.

If the dps come into a tough vet hm DLC dungeon with reasonable health or turn out to be survivable through whatever means while you as a tank are getting 1-shot...please swap out ebon for plague doctor by all means.

there are a few essential tank sets you want to be farming to be able to mix and match on the fly for any given situation:

ebon: trial support (extra health for others)
plague doctor : make yourself beefy (extra health for yourself)
torugs pact : trial support. (max debuffing of enemies). Note that before Murkmire the "Roar of Alkosh" set is considered BIS for this exact purpose but that set becomes obsolete the second Murkmire drops so don't bother starting to farming it now. Soon all tanks will stash their alkosh set in the bank to collect dust while Torugs you can craft yourself in 10min right now

combine with the monster set of choice.

There are more 'useful' sets but these 3 above are quite essential, to be combined with whatever flavor set depending on the situation. If you are starting out and want to complete one 'golden outfit' that gets you through any content in the game and serve's as a ticket into any raid: 5piece ebon +5piece torug's pact + 2piece monster set

What? Alkosh = 3010 resistance debuff. Torug = 633 resistance debuff...

Sparr0w

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@profundidob16_ESO , it's a little off topic, but this thing you mentioned have caught my eye, and I often skim over tanking threads too fast to catch last changes - what will Murkmire change to make Alkosh obsolete?

@John_Falstaff Currently Crusher enchant can be overwritten by a weaker one (Infused crusher vs Infused torugs crusher, for example is 633 difference, but if the non torugs gets applied first it will likely be active through the whole fight), next patch they're making it so a weaker enchant cannot overwrite a stronger enchant, it will instead just refresh it. This means only one tank can wear Torugs and it will be like both tanks are wearing it.

However I really don't see it making Alkosh obsolete since Alkosh still gives about 2.5k more resistance debuff, albeit less tanky (since it's really a stam DD set) but the extra group dps from 2.5k penetration imo is worth the trade off.

John_Falstaff

@profundidob16_ESO , ah - yup, I do remember that change, and it's awesome one (plus, with crusher proc'd by weapon abilities, it'll be even easier to keep full uptime from backbar). But I just didn't get how it would relate to Alkosh; tank can run it alongside with Torug's because Alkosh's bonus isn't named and will stack with crusher, no?

@Sparr0w , yes, I did recall that change; it's the part where Alkosh gets obsolete that I didn't get. ^^

profundidob16_ESO

Sparr0w wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

JaselUmena wrote: »

So I've been around for a while now and many of the tanking advice I read includes using the Ebon Armory set. I really can't see how is this set remotely useful when compared to other heavy sets, or even sanctuary jewelry + weapons.

Is 1'1k HP that important in a group to give up on an entire 5 piece set? Cause this one really is boring.

in a trial: YES
in a 4-man dungeon: no but still useful. Often better sets exist

Keep in mind that a so called "selfish" set like plague doctor gives the extra 3K health to you instead of spreading it out into 1K to each other group member but may prove to be still prove more benefitial to the group.

If the dps come into a tough vet hm DLC dungeon with reasonable health or turn out to be survivable through whatever means while you as a tank are getting 1-shot...please swap out ebon for plague doctor by all means.

there are a few essential tank sets you want to be farming to be able to mix and match on the fly for any given situation:

ebon: trial support (extra health for others)
plague doctor : make yourself beefy (extra health for yourself)
torugs pact : trial support. (max debuffing of enemies). Note that before Murkmire the "Roar of Alkosh" set is considered BIS for this exact purpose but that set becomes obsolete the second Murkmire drops so don't bother starting to farming it now. Soon all tanks will stash their alkosh set in the bank to collect dust while Torugs you can craft yourself in 10min right now

combine with the monster set of choice.

There are more 'useful' sets but these 3 above are quite essential, to be combined with whatever flavor set depending on the situation. If you are starting out and want to complete one 'golden outfit' that gets you through any content in the game and serve's as a ticket into any raid: 5piece ebon +5piece torug's pact + 2piece monster set

What? Alkosh = 3010 resistance debuff. Torug = 633 resistance debuff...

look up the old threads from the past where the tanking guru's have calculated the effective difference between both sets while taking into account ALL factors such as uptime etc, not just 1 blank resistance debuff number. You'll see they came to the conclusion that both sets are comparable with Alkosh only marginally better and circumstancial and depending on perfect synergy support and usage.

profundidob16_ESO

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@profundidob16_ESO , ah - yup, I do remember that change, and it's awesome one (plus, with crusher proc'd by weapon abilities, it'll be even easier to keep full uptime from backbar). But I just didn't get how it would relate to Alkosh; tank can run it alongside with Torug's because Alkosh's bonus isn't named and will stack with crusher, no?

@Sparr0w , yes, I did recall that change; it's the part where Alkosh gets obsolete that I didn't get. ^^

you can run both yes but that means no ebon support and less survivability for the tank. I don't see that as a typical set for the hardest endgame content but for easy stuff sure, why not ?

Sparr0w

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

JaselUmena wrote: »

So I've been around for a while now and many of the tanking advice I read includes using the Ebon Armory set. I really can't see how is this set remotely useful when compared to other heavy sets, or even sanctuary jewelry + weapons.

Is 1'1k HP that important in a group to give up on an entire 5 piece set? Cause this one really is boring.

in a trial: YES
in a 4-man dungeon: no but still useful. Often better sets exist

Keep in mind that a so called "selfish" set like plague doctor gives the extra 3K health to you instead of spreading it out into 1K to each other group member but may prove to be still prove more benefitial to the group.

If the dps come into a tough vet hm DLC dungeon with reasonable health or turn out to be survivable through whatever means while you as a tank are getting 1-shot...please swap out ebon for plague doctor by all means.

there are a few essential tank sets you want to be farming to be able to mix and match on the fly for any given situation:

ebon: trial support (extra health for others)
plague doctor : make yourself beefy (extra health for yourself)
torugs pact : trial support. (max debuffing of enemies). Note that before Murkmire the "Roar of Alkosh" set is considered BIS for this exact purpose but that set becomes obsolete the second Murkmire drops so don't bother starting to farming it now. Soon all tanks will stash their alkosh set in the bank to collect dust while Torugs you can craft yourself in 10min right now

combine with the monster set of choice.

There are more 'useful' sets but these 3 above are quite essential, to be combined with whatever flavor set depending on the situation. If you are starting out and want to complete one 'golden outfit' that gets you through any content in the game and serve's as a ticket into any raid: 5piece ebon +5piece torug's pact + 2piece monster set

What? Alkosh = 3010 resistance debuff. Torug = 633 resistance debuff...

look up the old threads from the past where the tanking guru's have calculated the effective difference between both sets while taking into account ALL factors such as uptime etc, not just 1 blank resistance debuff number. You'll see they came to the conclusion that both sets are comparable with Alkosh only marginally better and circumstancial and depending on perfect synergy support and usage.

@profundidob16_ESO @John_Falstaff
https://woeler.eu/alkosh-vs-torugs-pact/



I'm aware, but as you can see from the graph, if Torugs had a 100% crusher uptime & Alkosh had a 75% crusher up time, the Alkosh proc would only need 40% uptime to out perform it.

Next patch with Crusher basically being up 100% with either blockade or a weapon dot (even without 90%+ isn't hard to get) Alkosh will need about what 30% up time to out perform Torugs, which even in dungeons isn't hard to accomplish just from 1 synergy.

EDIT: Just adding, the best tank I know tanks all content wearing Torugs/Alkosh, vAS+x, vCR+x etc...

Royaji

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

JaselUmena wrote: »

So I've been around for a while now and many of the tanking advice I read includes using the Ebon Armory set. I really can't see how is this set remotely useful when compared to other heavy sets, or even sanctuary jewelry + weapons.

Is 1'1k HP that important in a group to give up on an entire 5 piece set? Cause this one really is boring.

in a trial: YES
in a 4-man dungeon: no but still useful. Often better sets exist

Keep in mind that a so called "selfish" set like plague doctor gives the extra 3K health to you instead of spreading it out into 1K to each other group member but may prove to be still prove more benefitial to the group.

If the dps come into a tough vet hm DLC dungeon with reasonable health or turn out to be survivable through whatever means while you as a tank are getting 1-shot...please swap out ebon for plague doctor by all means.

there are a few essential tank sets you want to be farming to be able to mix and match on the fly for any given situation:

ebon: trial support (extra health for others)
plague doctor : make yourself beefy (extra health for yourself)
torugs pact : trial support. (max debuffing of enemies). Note that before Murkmire the "Roar of Alkosh" set is considered BIS for this exact purpose but that set becomes obsolete the second Murkmire drops so don't bother starting to farming it now. Soon all tanks will stash their alkosh set in the bank to collect dust while Torugs you can craft yourself in 10min right now

combine with the monster set of choice.

There are more 'useful' sets but these 3 above are quite essential, to be combined with whatever flavor set depending on the situation. If you are starting out and want to complete one 'golden outfit' that gets you through any content in the game and serve's as a ticket into any raid: 5piece ebon +5piece torug's pact + 2piece monster set

What? Alkosh = 3010 resistance debuff. Torug = 633 resistance debuff...

look up the old threads from the past where the tanking guru's have calculated the effective difference between both sets while taking into account ALL factors such as uptime etc, not just 1 blank resistance debuff number. You'll see they came to the conclusion that both sets are comparable with Alkosh only marginally better and circumstancial and depending on perfect synergy support and usage.

Really?

Alkosh + Torugs will probably make a come back for main tanks. But no one is dropping Alkosh anytime soon.

John_Falstaff

@profundidob16_ESO , yes, I didn't have the cases with a lot of incoming damage in mind and team not happening to be glass cannons. And @Sparr0w , that's a nice comparison - thanks for bringing it. I'll shamelessly relay all that to growing guild tanks and let them decide. ^^

profundidob16_ESO

yes, those are base graph used on the threads where it became clear that in reality they become comparable in most fights

but I see your point and you're right, 'stashing Alkosh' was putting it too strong as the set will remain useful. I take that part back and rephrase:

'both sets become valid options now as of Murkmire'

Royaji

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

yes, those are base graph used on the threads where it became clear that in reality they become comparable in most fights

but I see your point and you're right, 'stashing Alkosh' was putting it too strong as the set will remain useful. I take that part back and rephrase:

'both sets become valid options now as of Murkmire'

Alkosh outperforming Torug's at 40% uptime (with odds weighted towards Torug's) is not comparable. Alkosh is objectively better.

What will become more viable is an Alkosh + Torug's setup for main tank since off-tank will not overwrite torug's crusher anymore. But even now two of the most used setups for tanks in trials are Alkosh + Torug's/Alkosh + Ebon and Alkosh + Ebon/Alkosh + Dragon (Powerful Assault)

One case where I can see a tank using Torug's over Alkosh is when he is less experienced and requires a bit of extra "padding" Alkosh can not provide. But perfomance wise it's Alkosh or go home.

Sparr0w

Liofa wrote: »

MT > Ebon/Alkosh, OT > Dragon/Alkosh. OT should swap Dragon with PA whenever possible. That's what we are doing in my group. There may or may not be some other setups that is better but this definitely works great.

Just make sure you know how to apply Crusher with 100% uptime without Torug's. If you don't know it yet, check this video or you can read this.

Just now I see main tank running Torugs over Ebon and off tank running Ebon/Dragon with the option to swap for Alkosh or PA.