The older Arena weapons (vMA, vDSA, vAS) — please don't neglect them again during this PTS cycle

TheYKcid

Disclaimer: I understand there are much bigger issues during the current PTS cycle (shields, mobility, etc), and this thread is not meant to diminish or take focus away from them in any way. It's a reminder to the devs about a long-standing issue and that people still care about it

Ever since Summerset went live, many Arena weapons (the unique, ability-altering items awarded from vMA, vDSA, and AS), have been severely underperforming. This is due to the fact that all 2H weapons now count as two set pieces, therefore one can always enjoy the full benefits of a 5/5/2 gear setup on their frontbar (monster set + two 5pc sets) regardless of weapon choice.

However, this change left the Arena weapons in the dust. This is because Arena weapons are a 2pc set—and therefore occupy two item slots—causing you to have to lose the 4th and 5th bonus of a 5pc set in order to run them on the frontbar, which is a huge sacrifice to your stats. Yet, these weapons only give one bonus... a bonus which only affects a single skill on that bar (compare this to a 5pc set giving a large amount of raw stats, which boosts all your offensive and healing abilities). These unique weapons, which come from very tough content behind an enormous grindwall, are actually performing worse than basic 5pc sets you can easily farm from normal LFG dungeons.

The simple and logical change to address this is to give a standardised 1pc stat bonus to these items. They take two slots, they give two bonuses. Just like monster sets. Just like the Blackrose weapons you're implementing in Murkmire (so we know you understand this issue).

To address balance concerns, this would absolutely not buff Arena weapons to outperform 5/5/2 in any way. Nor would it affect the backbar Arena weapons currently used to any consequential extent (see the threads linked below for proof and analyses).

I didn't want to put too many details in this thread, as it's merely a reminder of issues I have covered many times before. I have two older threads you can reference to find detailed information and comparisons to support the assertions I've made herein, as well as to see the immense amount of support received:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/411801/arena-weapons-desperately-need-a-1pc-stat-bonus-a-detailed-explanation/p1 - May 10th
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/433525/zos-please-do-not-neglect-the-older-arena-weapons-in-murkmire-vma-vdsa-etc/p1 - September 1st

Also, do note that the class reps support this idea too, as was mentioned in the most recent rep meeting notes!

Blackrose Weapons and other arena weapons: Did not have time to discuss. We will email our feedback about them as well as the proposal that all the arena weapon should receive a 1-piece bonus.

ZOS, please listen to your appointed reps and your playerbase! These hard-earned rewards have been mediocre for almost 5 months due to a simple oversight, but the remedy is just as simple!

Rukzadlithau

This must happen!

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RobGarrett

Zeromaz

Give us our bonuses bak

NordSwordnBoard

Please don't let them become obsolete. I'm OK with Murkmire arena weapons being better because they're new, but lets boost the old ones too.

Cronopoly

Carrot action here only for the new shiny. Good luck

Aliyavana

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

daedemrwb17_ESO

Beyond just adding a 1pc bonus can majority of the weapon effects be revisited? Only the Maelstrom Bow and Destro Staff, and maybe the Asylum Destro, Resto staff are actually used.

Silver_Strider

To be fair, even with the 2 bonuses on Perfect Blackrose Weapons, the majority are absolute garbage and don't even come close to any of the other Arena weapons even without their old bonuses (Resto Staff is the only exception and even then, Healing Ward won't benefit from it since it no longer has an upfront heal).

Make Blackrose weapons worth a damn and maybe other Arena Weapons can get their old bonuses back.

Nifty2g

Feel like they're not going to do this

Left4Daud

I’m glad you’re fighting for this, you’ve been very thorough and convincing with your threads.

At this point I can say, ZOS is either incredibly stubborn, or their hands are tied because they want the new weapons to be more appealing so their content will be more successful. (Yes I’m aware even with the latest patch notes, these weapons are still very underwhelming, but they still could receive further tweaks.)

I mean really what else could it be? It’s not feasible they are unaware the community has requested and suggested this.

That being said, I don’t think a 1 pc bonus will ever come back to these old sets. If anything, we should be campaigning for a 2 pc bonus, so they are in line with the Blackrose weapons. A small distinction, but an important one nonetheless.

lucky_dutch

vDSA weapons are still BiS for many PvP builds and vMA are still widely used in PvE at trials. I don't really see what your complaint is tbh. If they further buff them they'll just be OP rather than "a strong option"

ccfeeling

lucky_dutch wrote: »

vDSA weapons are still BiS for many PvP builds and vMA are still widely used in PvE at trials. I don't really see what your complaint is tbh. If they further buff them they'll just be OP rather than "a strong option"

ZOS should return VMA & VDSA 1pcs bonus after Summerset .

Risk vs Reward .

TheYKcid

Left4Daud wrote: »

That being said, I don’t think a 1 pc bonus will ever come back to these old sets. If anything, we should be campaigning for a 2 pc bonus, so they are in line with the Blackrose weapons. A small distinction, but an important one nonetheless.

That's fine with me. Benefit would be the same, and makes it more consistent with existing content, too. In fact someone in my older thread suggested the same thing on the grounds that it would prevent people from stacking two 1pc items (vMA 1H + vDSA 1h, for example) in order to get a bunch of raw stats while ignoring the special effects (although people can already do this with 1pc monster sets, do I didn't see the big deal personally).

lucky_dutch wrote: »

vDSA weapons are still BiS for many PvP builds and vMA are still widely used in PvE at trials. I don't really see what your complaint is tbh. If they further buff them they'll just be OP rather than "a strong option"

I'd recommend checking-out my two older threads where I go over this issue in greater detail. To summarize, The Arena weapons that are currently considered viable/BiS are specifically the ones that are run on the backbar. This is because your raw stats on the backbar matter very little, as most of your abilities will scale-off the frontbar where you have 5/5/2 active.

For the same reason, adding a small stat bonus to these backbar weapons will also not affect builds to any large extent.

Masel

I literally annoyed them with it (I included the phrase 1 piece old arena weapons after everything I posted in the last days) in our Dev discord, but I never got an answer on this.

And I don't think you can have high hopes for this pts cycle, since their priorities are seemingly other things, where they wasted a lot of resources on unnecessary major expedition and shield changes (here I mean the cast time).

There's only so much I can do. I promised many players that I'd pursue this and force a debate but if I am ignored, what can I do...

TheYKcid

Masel92 wrote: »

I literally annoyed them with it (I included the phrase 1 piece old arena weapons after everything I posted in the last days) in our Dev discord, but I never got an answer on this.

And I don't think you can have high hopes for this pts cycle, since their priorities are seemingly other things, where they wasted a lot of resources on unnecessary major expedition and shield changes (here I mean the cast time).

There's only so much I can do. I promised many players that I'd pursue this and force a debate but if I am ignored, what can I do...

No problem Masel, I never doubted your word on it (and I was really happy to see it mentioned in the rep notes). I understand there are much bigger issues in the focus for this cycle, I just hoped ZOS would spare some time to address this since the fix is so simple and they already have a template in the form of Blackrose weps.

I really appreciate what you and the other reps have been doing! It can't be easy being the go-between for the community and devs during this chaotic period, but you guys have been really on the ball with bringing our concerns into the spotlight.

lucky_dutch

TheYKcid wrote: »

I'd recommend checking-out my two older threads where I go over this issue in greater detail. To summarize, The Arena weapons that are currently considered viable/BiS are specifically the ones that are run on the backbar. This is because your raw stats on the backbar matter very little, as most of your abilities will scale-off the frontbar where you have 5/5/2 active.

For the same reason, adding a small stat bonus to these backbar weapons will also not affect builds to any large extent.

What's wrong with them being BiS back bar weapons?

Also, my magblade uses it front bar for the enormous boost to destructive reach.

A stat boost (without a corresponding nerf to their active effects) would make these OP.

I know you've invested a lot of time into acquiring one and want it to be the best thing since sliced bread but it's not good for the health of the game for them to be must-haves for every build.

TheYKcid

What's wrong with them being BiS back bar weapons?

Nothing, and no one is saying there's a problem. It's the fact that almost every other Arena weapon aside from the 4 that can be successfully backbarred is close to useless.

Also, my magblade uses it front bar for the enormous boost to destructive reach.

It really doesn't. Master Destro + Flame Reach pales in comparison to Force Pulse with basic 5/5/2. And that's even when you consider that the slot it saves can be used for inner light. It's not even close—Master destro builds are heavily gimped by losing the 2 slots.

Bear in mind the 5/5/2 build not only has a better spammable, but every other skill on their bar is also buffed.

A stat boost (without a corresponding nerf to their active effects) would make these OP.

It won't. I've covered the point extensively not only in my previous reply to you, but in the two threads on the issue I made in previous months.

I know you've invested a lot of time into acquiring one and want it to be the best thing since sliced bread but it's not good for the health of the game for them to be must-haves for every build.

Not very fair to accuse me of a personal agenda when I've provided ample and objective arguments for the case in a decidedly impersonal manner. Once again I'd direct you to my previous threads where I made clear numerical comparisons to prove my point. Attack my arguments, not my character.

ccfeeling

Masel92 wrote: »

I literally annoyed them with it (I included the phrase 1 piece old arena weapons after everything I posted in the last days) in our Dev discord, but I never got an answer on this.

And I don't think you can have high hopes for this pts cycle, since their priorities are seemingly other things, where they wasted a lot of resources on unnecessary major expedition and shield changes (here I mean the cast time).

There's only so much I can do. I promised many players that I'd pursue this and force a debate but if I am ignored, what can I do...

Thank you

ezio45

honestly this would be such an easy win for zos it shocks me it hasnt been done yet.

Masel

ezio45 wrote: »

honestly this would be such an easy win for zos it shocks me it hasnt been done yet.

Exactly. Instead they implement changes that aren't requested and not liked. We're gonna have these short expedition buffs for a few months now...

ezio45

Masel92 wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

honestly this would be such an easy win for zos it shocks me it hasnt been done yet.

Exactly. Instead they implement changes that aren't requested and not liked. We're gonna have these short expedition buffs for a few months now...

Ya i mean i think it would at least give players who wouldnt normally engage in vet a reason to spend time with the content

and a lot of the nerfs this patch do kinda suck or are at least poorly executed. The expedition on is a good example. Like yes did something need to be done about movement speed on some builds, yes, but them just blanket nerfing all movement speed duration's was lazy. Boundless for instance is kinda stupid, magsorcs clearly wasnt the type of build were having to much movement speed on was a problem with.

lucky_dutch

TheYKcid wrote: »

It really doesn't. Master Destro + Flame Reach pales in comparison to Force Pulse with basic 5/5/2. And that's even when you consider that the slot it saves can be used for inner light. It's not even close—Master destro builds are heavily gimped by losing the 2 slots.

I can't speak to PvE builds using it as I don't use it there but in PvP the damage + cc for reasonably low mag-cost is amazing. That's also what I meant when saying they'd be OP if they also carried a stat boost.

Master bow is in the same spot.

I wouldn't try to correct you on PvE viability as I'm no expert there but you also have to consider PvP knock-on effects. If they have to be sub-standard PvE weapons in order to be balanced PvP weapons I think that's OK so long as there are other good PvE weapons to chose from.

Apologies if I'm off-base about you having an agenda but I'd have to question why you wouldn't just pick a different weapon to use as there's plenty of selection. These ones do have viability in certain situations so they're not completely useless so I don't really see the need to change them.

Lord-Otto

lucky_dutch wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

It really doesn't. Master Destro + Flame Reach pales in comparison to Force Pulse with basic 5/5/2. And that's even when you consider that the slot it saves can be used for inner light. It's not even close—Master destro builds are heavily gimped by losing the 2 slots.

I can't speak to PvE builds using it as I don't use it there but in PvP the damage + cc for reasonably low mag-cost is amazing. That's also what I meant when saying they'd be OP if they also carried a stat boost.

Master bow is in the same spot.

I wouldn't try to correct you on PvE viability as I'm no expert there but you also have to consider PvP knock-on effects. If they have to be sub-standard PvE weapons in order to be balanced PvP weapons I think that's OK so long as there are other good PvE weapons to chose from.

Apologies if I'm off-base about you having an agenda but I'd have to question why you wouldn't just pick a different weapon to use as there's plenty of selection. These ones do have viability in certain situations so they're not completely useless so I don't really see the need to change them.

It's only amazing in PvP when you have no other choice, see magsorc. If you do have the choice, magblade for example, wasting two slots for a single skill buff is terrible. You're better off with a Willpower staff buffing ALL your skills.

Master bow is a different topic. It's backbar-only, and it's OP as ship.

TheYKcid

Yep, the only time Master destro is even meta is on a Sorc. And that's only because they have no other viable CC options anymore, not because Master Destro is strong in any capacity.

Whether Master Bow is OP is debatable (I'm of the opinion that it's not), but either way, it's a backbar weapon so it doesn't care about a 1pc bonus. In fact, poison injection is a unique DoT as it updates to your current bar's stats every tick, so it literally gets zero benefit from added stats on the backbar.

P.S @lucky_dutch I am almost exclusively a PvP player, and have been maining magsorc on and off since CWC, so I'm well-aware of how the Master destro works in this environment and the closest alternative setups. It's an issue of raw stats and efficiency-per-slot, and the Master's always loses out. Even moreso when your class has a good spammable (swallow soul in the context of magblade), there is no way to justify the Master destro setup—it's objectively inferior.

John_Falstaff

TheYKcid wrote: »

In fact, poison injection is a unique DoT as it updates to your current bar's stats every tick, so it literally gets zero benefit from added stats on the backbar.

I don't think it's unique in that regard; starting Summerset I think, or even earlier, all DoTs behave exactly like this - they recalculate damage based on current stats per each damage tick. It was in patch notes.

Also, about Master bow in PvE, I think it could use a slight bump. Somebody tested it thoroughly side by side with vMA bow (I think @Masel92 did, though I may be mistaken), and they're almost in line with one another, with the caveat of Master being single target.

grannas211

daedemrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Beyond just adding a 1pc bonus can majority of the weapon effects be revisited? Only the Maelstrom Bow and Destro Staff, and maybe the Asylum Destro, Resto staff are actually used.

Master Destro, Dual Wield (meta AF right now), and and Bow are all used in PVP to be fair

TheYKcid

@John_Falstaff You're thinking of ground-based AoE DoTs like blockade, volley, etc. Those do, and always have, updated to current stats each tick.

Sticky DoTs always take a snapshot of your stats at the moment of impact, and all ticks thereafter retain these stats (although changing your %-based modifier, eg. minor berserk, can still affect the final value). Poison inject is unique in this regard.

I've retested all this during Wolfhunter so this is up-to-date info.

Masel

John_Falstaff wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

In fact, poison injection is a unique DoT as it updates to your current bar's stats every tick, so it literally gets zero benefit from added stats on the backbar.

I don't think it's unique in that regard; starting Summerset I think, or even earlier, all DoTs behave exactly like this - they recalculate damage based on current stats per each damage tick. It was in patch notes.

Also, about Master bow in PvE, I think it could use a slight bump. Somebody tested it thoroughly side by side with vMA bow (I think @Masel92 did, though I may be mistaken), and they're almost in line with one another, with the caveat of Master being single target.

Especially in comparison to the new spell strategist set... It gives 500 sd on light attacks that do not cost

lucky_dutch

TheYKcid wrote: »

It's an issue of raw stats and efficiency-per-slot, and the Master's always loses out. Even moreso when your class has a good spammable (swallow soul in the context of magblade), there is no way to justify the Master destro setup—it's objectively inferior.

Disagree with this. Magblades don't use Destructive Reach as a spammable but as a CC to burn through stam bars at range so when you close in for the Incap -> Bow combo, they've not got the resources to roll or break the incap. The fact that it adds dps pressure in the process is just a sweetener.

Destructive Reach doesn't compete with Swallow Soul for bar space, it competes with fear and it's a range & dmg vs more reliable cc debate.

In cyro I tend to opt for fear but in BGs, Reach is very useful.

John_Falstaff

@TheYKcid , possibly - I can't for the life of me find the place in patch notes where I remember it was mentioned, and if you tested the sticky DoTs, then I suppose I've misremembered the wording. Surprising that those dots aren't unified as there are so many of them.

@Masel92 , indeed, when I saw description of that new set, I had a little shock. It was... way too good to feel that it's true.

TheYKcid

I'm aware of that. I was under the impression you were saying you used Master reach as a spammable and responded as such.

Prior to Summerset many magblades actually were using Master destro is the way you described. Back then it was still valuable because you needed a 1pc set to fill the 11th "dead" slot in a destro/resto build. That changed drastically in Summerset.

Now you're far better off using 5/5/2 even if you running swallow+reach (for reasons already covered by myself and other posters). I'm not bashing on your build, and i'm sure you do well on it, but that's not an argument against buffing an underperforming set. It's far from optimal and that's a fact.