4.2.2: No buff to shuffle?

React

If you do not extend the immunity duration on shuffle, even with the changes to forward momentum, most stamina builds are going to switch into heavy armor next patch. Heavy still has the better snare immunity option even with the decrease in immunity on it. Shuffle offers 2.5s of immunity at almost twice the cost of forward momentum, and now provides the exact same buff as blade cloak but requires 5 pieces of medium to use. By switching to heavy with blade cloak, you'll keep the aoe reduction of shuffle with an extra source of major expediton + damage without even losing a bar slot, as you'll simply remorph FM after replacing shuffle with BC. Heavy has better healing, more sustain, STILL MORE MOBILITY, (indirectly) an extra bar slot, and more mitigation than medium armor. Medium armor has slightly more WD and crit. In terms of the overall PvP toolkit next patch, heavy is going to much better satisfy the needs of stamina builds.

Edit: I should add that these patch notes just further increased the desirability of using quick cloak as it'll provide an extra source of expedition, which is seemingly going to become harder to access despite being a staple for most stam builds.

Please make the right changes before murkmire goes live.

revonine

They received feedback to buff Shuffle immunity to the level of Forward Momentum and instead they just nerfed Forward Momentum.

Just wow.

Crixus8000

revonine wrote: »

They received feedback to buff Shuffle immunity to the level of Forward Momentum and instead they just nerfed Forward Momentum.

Just wow.

Because there was a million more threads asking for a fm nerf rather than a shuffle buff. It seems most people don't want their stuff stronger, they just want to drag others down to their level.

olsborg

Since shuffle basicly costs double of what FM does, I feel it needs to be buffed to atleast 5s of snare immunity, comon zos..

BaylorCorvette

As a Stam only PvPer I agree that FM was too easy to keep up 100% of the time and what they're proposing on PTS now makes sense. However, Shuffle still needs a buff, otherwise heavy armor FM will still have amazing mobility.

bagon

They nerf forward. Dont buff shuffles immunity. Nerf all forms of major expedition and speed pots. (Even though swift stamsorcs were the issue. not speed pots) they stated this patch they wanted to push more players to build in medium and light, yet all im seeing in these patch notes are reasons to play in heavy

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revonine wrote: »

They received feedback to buff Shuffle immunity to the level of Forward Momentum and instead they just nerfed Forward Momentum.

Just wow.

This was expected unfortunately

.

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

As a Stam only PvPer I agree that FM was too easy to keep up 100% of the time and what they're proposing on PTS now makes sense. However, Shuffle still needs a buff, otherwise heavy armor FM will still have amazing mobility.

It's not even amazing mobility, it's just superior to shuffle even with the halved duration. 4 seconds immunity for heavy armor & magicka builds that run 2h is fine. Since that seems to be the baseline for snare immunity, shuffle should now be brought up to a minimum of 5s immunity, or have it's immunity increased for each piece of medium worn.

mojomood

25% AoE mitigation. That's 16,500 points of resistance against almost every utlimate, siege, sub assault, and jabs. I would like to see shuffle snare immunity at 4 seconds as well, but the new Major evasion is strong.

IF speed pots get a heavy nerf, like in the range of immovability length, then heavy loses the most. Players will be sprinting more and that will benefit medium in speed and cost.

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mojomood wrote: »

25% AoE mitigation. That's 16,500 points of resistance against almost every utlimate, siege, sub assault, and jabs. I would like to see shuffle snare immunity at 4 seconds as well, but the new Major evasion is strong.

IF speed pots get a heavy nerf, like in the range of immovability length, then heavy loses the most. Players will be sprinting more and that will benefit medium in speed and cost.

I'm happy that RNG dodge chance is gone from evasion; really I didn't think it needed the 25% mitigation whatsoever as a replacement - it simply needed to provide more snare immunity that it currently does, and that snare immunity needs to give it unique value over forward momentum. However, what you have to consider is that any medium armor build which previously ran blade cloak will actually be taking significantly higher damage than previously with the presence of RNG dodge. With dual wield being heavily favored in the stam pvp meta, the vast majority of builds will simply opt to have the superior snare purge option in heavy armor with quick cloak (as you said, sources of major expedition are gaining value - quick cloak is cheap OPTIMAL to run on heavy armor builds w/FM, and rather pointless on medium builds next patch) and thus increased mitigation against the extra single target damage they're taking.

We'll end up with heavy armor being the heavily favored option for most players, when it is supposedly ZoS's intent to push players to wear light & medium. There needs to be a duration increase to shuffle's immunity.

Ragnaroek93

I think at this point that the "buff to medium armor" was the nerf Piercing Mark.

At least ZOS should be fair enough to not sell medium and light armor nerfs as buffs, because overall this aren't buffs, this is heavy armor favouring garbage. Man, the freaking game was much more fun when heavy armor was just outright *** in PvP.

revonine

Forward Momentum is still the best option. All this nerf even served was making it literally more irritating to use as you have to spam it more often.

Shuffle is still far too cost prohibitive. Course with this feedback they'll probably just increase the cost of Forward Momentum

BlackLabel

Just buff shuffle already @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_BillE

Nicko_Lps

Liam12548 wrote: »

If you do not extend the immunity duration on shuffle, even with the changes to forward momentum, most stamina builds are going to switch into heavy armor next patch. Heavy still has the better snare immunity option even with the decrease in immunity on it. Shuffle offers 2.5s of immunity at almost twice the cost of forward momentum, and now provides the exact same buff as blade cloak but requires 5 pieces of medium to use. By switching to heavy with blade cloak, you'll keep the aoe reduction of shuffle with an extra source of major expediton + damage without even losing a bar slot, as you'll simply remorph FM after replacing shuffle with BC. Heavy has better healing, more sustain, STILL MORE MOBILITY, (indirectly) an extra bar slot, and more mitigation than medium armor. Medium armor has slightly more WD and crit. In terms of the overall PvP toolkit next patch, heavy is going to much better satisfy the needs of stamina builds.

Edit: I should add that these patch notes just further increased the desirability of using quick cloak as it'll provide an extra source of expedition, which is seemingly going to become harder to access despite being a staple for most stam builds.

Please make the right changes before murkmire goes live.

Most stamina builds are already switched to heavy armor since LAST patch with jewelery being able to be re-traited.

Except those gankblades im medium designed to be the perfect killer of afk-or low cp ppl that when they fail to gank a good magsorc ask for shield nerfs because they did not discovered heavy armor bleedBlade yet

Kadoin

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

If you do not extend the immunity duration on shuffle, even with the changes to forward momentum, most stamina builds are going to switch into heavy armor next patch. Heavy still has the better snare immunity option even with the decrease in immunity on it. Shuffle offers 2.5s of immunity at almost twice the cost of forward momentum, and now provides the exact same buff as blade cloak but requires 5 pieces of medium to use. By switching to heavy with blade cloak, you'll keep the aoe reduction of shuffle with an extra source of major expediton + damage without even losing a bar slot, as you'll simply remorph FM after replacing shuffle with BC. Heavy has better healing, more sustain, STILL MORE MOBILITY, (indirectly) an extra bar slot, and more mitigation than medium armor. Medium armor has slightly more WD and crit. In terms of the overall PvP toolkit next patch, heavy is going to much better satisfy the needs of stamina builds.

Edit: I should add that these patch notes just further increased the desirability of using quick cloak as it'll provide an extra source of expedition, which is seemingly going to become harder to access despite being a staple for most stam builds.

Please make the right changes before murkmire goes live.

Most stamina builds are already switched to heavy armor since LAST patch with jewelery being able to be re-traited.

Except those gankblades im medium designed to be the perfect killer of afk-or low cp ppl that when they fail to gank a good magsorc ask for shield nerfs because they did not discovered heavy armor bleedBlade yet

There literally is still zero disadvantage to using heavy over light and medium. Well, unless you love being punished...

eDIT: half-typed

Nicko_Lps

Kadoin wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

If you do not extend the immunity duration on shuffle, even with the changes to forward momentum, most stamina builds are going to switch into heavy armor next patch. Heavy still has the better snare immunity option even with the decrease in immunity on it. Shuffle offers 2.5s of immunity at almost twice the cost of forward momentum, and now provides the exact same buff as blade cloak but requires 5 pieces of medium to use. By switching to heavy with blade cloak, you'll keep the aoe reduction of shuffle with an extra source of major expediton + damage without even losing a bar slot, as you'll simply remorph FM after replacing shuffle with BC. Heavy has better healing, more sustain, STILL MORE MOBILITY, (indirectly) an extra bar slot, and more mitigation than medium armor. Medium armor has slightly more WD and crit. In terms of the overall PvP toolkit next patch, heavy is going to much better satisfy the needs of stamina builds.

Edit: I should add that these patch notes just further increased the desirability of using quick cloak as it'll provide an extra source of expedition, which is seemingly going to become harder to access despite being a staple for most stam builds.

Please make the right changes before murkmire goes live.

Most stamina builds are already switched to heavy armor since LAST patch with jewelery being able to be re-traited.

Except those gankblades im medium designed to be the perfect killer of afk-or low cp ppl that when they fail to gank a good magsorc ask for shield nerfs because they did not discovered heavy armor bleedBlade yet

There literally is still zero disadvantage to using heavy over light and medium. Well, unless you love being punished...

eDIT: half-typed

Elder Stamina Online my friend, welcome aboard.

BlackLabel

A shame because medium could be so fun to play in.

Haashhtaag

mojomood wrote: »

25% AoE mitigation. That's 16,500 points of resistance against almost every utlimate, siege, sub assault, and jabs. I would like to see shuffle snare immunity at 4 seconds as well, but the new Major evasion is strong.

IF speed pots get a heavy nerf, like in the range of immovability length, then heavy loses the most. Players will be sprinting more and that will benefit medium in speed and cost.

You fail to realize that snares and roots are the biggest issue in pvp.

Universe

In the end everyone will wear heavy armor LOL

React

revonine wrote: »

Forward Momentum is still the best option. All this nerf even served was making it literally more irritating to use as you have to spam it more often.

Shuffle is still far too cost prohibitive. Course with this feedback they'll probably just increase the cost of Forward Momentum

This is what worries me the most, for good reason. TIME AND TIME AGAIN zenimax has interpreted "this ability is under performing" as "please nerf the better option down to the under performing option's level". I'm totally okay with FM being cut in half as it was necessary, but now shuffle needs to become the better option. 4 seconds is a perfect baseline for snare immunity available to any spec (FM & mist form can be run by any class, in theory). Shuffle requires 5 pieces of medium and thus can only be run by squishier stamina builds, and therefore should be MORE effective than the base line, available to any class immunities. At the absolute minimum, shuffle should be 5 seconds immunity. 6 or 7 seems far more reasonable all things considered, or potentially .75s or 1s additional immunity per piece of medium as a passive morph effect of shuffle. Elude could then become a 3s immunity with a significantly longer major evasion duration.

ak_pvp

Doesn't need it. Was already buffed with the new evasion. You mentioned blade cloak on heavy but you said yourself, another bar slot, and then you have to cast both so costs more.

There needs to be a fair mobility balance for heavy, med needs to be move speed buff instead of sprint. Ta daa. You get your niche without being more immune to control mechanics and screwing control based classes.

React

ak_pvp wrote: »

Doesn't need it.

Okay MagDK main PC/EU.

What is your argument against it?

ak_pvp

Liam12548 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Doesn't need it.

Okay MagDK main PC/EU.

What is your argument against it?

Read again, author of solo-outnumbered-pvp-medium-stam-classes-only-summerset, its been updated.

Zelos

Shuffle needs to double its immunity time so I dont have to cast it every 3 seconds. Way more people will be in heavy armor next patch if shuffle doesnt get a buff, its going to be great more heavy armor [removed profanity] terrific.

React

ak_pvp wrote: »

Doesn't need it. Was already buffed with the new evasion. You mentioned blade cloak on heavy but you said yourself, another bar slot, and then you have to cast both so costs more.

There needs to be a fair mobility balance for heavy, med needs to be move speed buff instead of sprint. Ta daa. You get your niche without being more immune to control mechanics and screwing control based classes.

Okay. Let's go over your points.

1) "It's already been buffed with new evasion"

>Any medium armor build that previously ran blade cloak is actually recieving a nerf due to this change. Obviously they will be receiving single target that was passively dodged in previous patches. I'm fine with the removal of passive dodge, rng has no place in PvP - but let's not skew the perspective. With this change and FM being more effective than shuffle, it doesn't make sense to run medium armor when you could run heavy with both evasion and a better snare immunity. The issue with medium never was the mitigation available, it's the fact that heavy was (and still will be) more mobile.

2)"You said yourself, another bar slot, and then you have to cast both so costs more"

Actually, what I said was it does not cost an extra bar slot to switch into heavy, as you are dropping shuffle for blade cloak (not the heavy armor skill, immovable) and remorphing rally to forward for your immunity. Casting both forward & blade cloak will cost approximately 1.5x what casting shuffle costs, and the immunity on forward is 1.5s longer than shuffle. thus in theory it can be cast less frequently. Assuming all the expedition nerfs go through, and speed pots become a poor option for expedition, your choices will become using a bow and dodge rolling, running quick cloak (which doesn't make sense unless you run heavy), or running channeled acceleration (which most stam classes will struggle to balance with their magicka utility abilities & buffs). The clear winner in the majority of cases is going to be forward, blade cloak, and heavy armor. The opposite of ZoS's supposed intentions of putting more players in light and heavy.

3) "There needs to be a fair mobility balance for heavy, med needs to be move speed buff instead of sprint. Ta daa. You Get your niche without being more immune to control mechanics and screwing control based classes"

Let's talk about control mechanics vs movement speed buffs & snare immunity. There is no cooldown on roots. Classes like magDK can root player's indefinitely, and the ONLY counter to this is snare immunity. The LONGEST SNARE IMMUNITY AVAILABLE is 4 seconds, the duration of magDK's main root (talons). Snares are unique to skills and passives, meaning that they stack with every other snare in the game. You can effectively reduce someone's movement speed to 0% just by using skills you'd already use, while that person can only increase their movement speed by making sacrifices such as dropping jewelry traits (nerfed in murkmire), running speed pots for major expedition (nerfed in murkmire), running a stam sorc OR gryphons ferocity for minor expedition, sacrificing a mundus for steed, or running a skill or passive specifically for major expedition (main sources nerfed in murkmire), and ultimately there is a cap on the potential speed they CAN reach.

The "Balance" you're saying we need, does not exist. Heavy armor, in both stam and magick specs, has access to the BEST immunity options available. If by balance you mean heavy should have more mobility, then I'm afraid your idea of balance is not correct. Medium SHOULD have the best immunity option, as they are the designated "kite and movement" oriented weight, and does not have the mitigation options that heavy and light have. You suggested movement speed, but the changes to swift were to directly combat the problematic "movement speed" issues exemplified by heavy armor, swift, forward momentum builds.

Overall, I think your perspective is heavily biased as someone who SEEMINGLY uses heavy armor on a class with access to the highest mitigation & the best snare immunity option.

katorga

So its going to be a snare meta. Fun.

The costs of countering snares/roots will roughly double: major expedition and immunity duration cut to 4 seconds, roughly about 50% on average. Potions likely going down to 10-15 seconds. Swift taking a 40% cut.

The cost to apply snares and keep them up 100% on a target is essentially zero, a by product of a skill you would use anyway.

ak_pvp

Liam12548 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Doesn't need it. Was already buffed with the new evasion. You mentioned blade cloak on heavy but you said yourself, another bar slot, and then you have to cast both so costs more.

There needs to be a fair mobility balance for heavy, med needs to be move speed buff instead of sprint. Ta daa. You get your niche without being more immune to control mechanics and screwing control based classes.

Okay. Let's go over your points.

1) "It's already been buffed with new evasion"

>Any medium armor build that previously ran blade cloak is actually recieving a nerf due to this change. Obviously they will be receiving single target that was passively dodged in previous patches. I'm fine with the removal of passive dodge, rng has no place in PvP - but let's not skew the perspective. With this change and FM being more effective than shuffle, it doesn't make sense to run medium armor when you could run heavy with both evasion and a better snare immunity. The issue with medium never was the mitigation available, it's the fact that heavy was (and still will be) more mobile.

2)"You said yourself, another bar slot, and then you have to cast both so costs more"

Actually, what I said was it does not cost an extra bar slot to switch into heavy, as you are dropping shuffle for blade cloak (not the heavy armor skill, immovable) and remorphing rally to forward for your immunity. Casting both forward & blade cloak will cost approximately 1.5x what casting shuffle costs, and the immunity on forward is 1.5s longer than shuffle. thus in theory it can be cast less frequently. Assuming all the expedition nerfs go through, and speed pots become a poor option for expedition, your choices will become using a bow and dodge rolling, running quick cloak (which doesn't make sense unless you run heavy), or running channeled acceleration (which most stam classes will struggle to balance with their magicka utility abilities & buffs). The clear winner in the majority of cases is going to be forward, blade cloak, and heavy armor. The opposite of ZoS's supposed intentions of putting more players in light and heavy.

3) "There needs to be a fair mobility balance for heavy, med needs to be move speed buff instead of sprint. Ta daa. You Get your niche without being more immune to control mechanics and screwing control based classes"

Let's talk about control mechanics vs movement speed buffs & snare immunity. There is no cooldown on roots. Classes like magDK can root player's indefinitely, and the ONLY counter to this is snare immunity. The LONGEST SNARE IMMUNITY AVAILABLE is 4 seconds, the duration of magDK's main root (talons). Snares are unique to skills and passives, meaning that they stack with every other snare in the game. You can effectively reduce someone's movement speed to 0% just by using skills you'd already use, while that person can only increase their movement speed by making sacrifices such as dropping jewelry traits (nerfed in murkmire), running speed pots for major expedition (nerfed in murkmire), running a stam sorc OR gryphons ferocity for minor expedition, sacrificing a mundus for steed, or running a skill or passive specifically for major expedition (main sources nerfed in murkmire), and ultimately there is a cap on the potential speed they CAN reach.

The "Balance" you're saying we need, does not exist. Heavy armor, in both stam and magick specs, has access to the BEST immunity options available. If by balance you mean heavy should have more mobility, then I'm afraid your idea of balance is not correct. Medium SHOULD have the best immunity option, as they are the designated "kite and movement" oriented weight, and does not have the mitigation options that heavy and light have. You suggested movement speed, but the changes to swift were to directly combat the problematic "movement speed" issues exemplified by heavy armor, swift, forward momentum builds.

Overall, I think your perspective is heavily biased as someone who SEEMINGLY uses heavy armor on a class with access to the highest mitigation & the best snare immunity option.

How many people use blade cloak on live. Not too many. Builds running FM alone, which is the majority take a nerf, builds running FM+blade cloak, take a nerf. In medium, builds running shuffle alone get a buff, and builds running shuffle/blade cloak get a nerf. It doesn't make heavy more attractive, its just the fact that ZOS can't pinpoint nerf.

I completely agree medium should be the fastest there is. That doesn't mean buff them to the point they ignore all the mechanics just because FM could. The current speed meta was an obvious problem, what ZOS should have done is change the heavier ones to be slower, so that medium shines better instead of blanket nerfing everything. Shuffle is already a very good ability and needs no buffs.

Also, your analysis of control mechanics is laughably wrong:

"Classes like magDK can root player's indefinitely."
Yes, classes with no removals and low stam pools.
This isn't good. But classes like Magden/MagDK can also be directly useless when faced vs someone with immunity.I already suggested a change for that. No pre-emptive immunity, but a longer post removal one. After using FM/Shuffle/Roll/Purge/Wings to remove a root, you should get 4s immunity to them, longer than the current roll immunity. But you should not get it before.

"Snares are unique to skills and passives, meaning that they stack with every other snare in the game. You can effectively reduce someone's movement speed to 0% just by using skills you'd already use."
Snares don't stack. The highest one overwrites the lower ones, as such MagDK doesn't even have the best snares, a S/B build would, with heroic's 60%. As for roots, you only use them for rooting as the secondary effect is kind of mediocre, not lowering their speed a "skill you'd already use." They sacrifice resources to do nothing to someone with immunity. Whilst that immunity lasts long and in combination with speed is the best defense mechanic in the game. Its not like you sacrifice soooo much to deal with the big scary snares, as it technically should be (counter v counter) its just that speed is so good.

Your idea of making medium look good is total immunity to any control mechanics because you don't like them. That is terrible ZOS tier balancing. Also, DK doesn't have best mitigation, that goes to warden and tied with templar, nor the best snare removal, FM>Shuffle>Wings after patch.

TL;DR: Medium doesn't need a buff, heavy need a nerf in mobility so each get their niche without being too overpowered or weakening other builds. And snares/roots as a whole need a balance change so that they aren't so oppressive when not removed, and aren't so useless when removed.

lucky_dutch

revonine wrote: »

They received feedback to buff Shuffle immunity to the level of Forward Momentum and instead they just nerfed Forward Momentum.

Just wow.

Because Stam classes are utterly dominant in nerfmire at the moment. They do not need more buffs.

Nicko_Lps

lucky_dutch wrote: »

revonine wrote: »

They received feedback to buff Shuffle immunity to the level of Forward Momentum and instead they just nerfed Forward Momentum.

Just wow.

Because Stam classes are utterly dominant in nerfmire at the moment. They do not need more buffs.

The worked hard Mr Dutch for that dominance, many years of forum tears and their master forum warrior nightblade have taught them that tears=buff

Ariades_swe

It's funny how allmost all heavy users actually ran shuffle and rally over forward momentum before they made shuffle 5 medium only.

Emma_Overload

BOTH Shuffle and FM need to be nerfed into the ground.

Morgul667

Zos logic:

reduce snare duration at update 1
Reduce snare immunity duration at update 2