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Dear ZoS please reconsider the bear nerf

  • Arciris
    Arciris
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    Another solution is to buff Northen Stom damage a bit to put it on par with Bear, so a Warden Magika DPS could choose to slot one or the other without seeing any dps loss or increase.
    As for Stamdens they are already most likely slotting Dawnbreaker anyway
  • Kanar
    Kanar
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    I would like to see zos nerf the bear more. Wardens shouldn't be required to run a pet to reach good DPS.
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    Kanar wrote: »
    I would like to see zos nerf the bear more. Wardens shouldn't be required to run a pet to reach good DPS.

    Warden DPS without the bear would need huge buffa then. It's still way behind the other classes, even with the buffs in Murkmire.
  • EmEm_Oh
    EmEm_Oh
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    I never had problems fighting a Warden with Bear in PvP. Like any real life situation, I either avoided that player (if they were really good and used the bear accordingly) or got a few peeps to help me out. Problem solved. No nerf necessary.

    Nerfing is a massive action, which really only deals with specific and dynamic situations than change so much and so fast, nerfing actually invites more imbalanced skills to compensate. That in itself, is unbalanced...then results in the "need" for more nerfs.
    Edited by EmEm_Oh on October 1, 2018 7:24PM
  • MooseKnuckles88
    MooseKnuckles88
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    @stileanima

    First, I enjoy all your videos and if it weren't for you showing that wardens still could still deal decent dps with the right gear and rotation, I would have abandoned the class long ago.

    My feelings for the magden feel like they're on life support today. Stamdens have won out by a substantial margin, and I don't mind that. I have a stamden I've been working on for the past few weeks and nearly got that one where I want it to be. I've watched several of Likos vids and got some additional information from him on discord about the Stamden, so I'm good there. I just can't shake off how the devs actually made magdens worse instead of better yet again. The reasoning and logic even when they know the issues is beyond my comprehension on why they'll refuse to make a few adjustments just to keep the magden where it's at in live vs what it will be in Murkmire.

    From what I think I understand about what you're saying about magdens is that they are doing noticeably worse solo self buffed in pts, but doing better when in a group setting getting buffed by all other classes? I would expect that, but how bad is it? I see you're crushing the dummy completely buffed out, but what's the best solo you've gotten. I'm on console, so I don't have any knowledge outside of what you guys provide.

    I haven't seen the notes for myself yet, but I see people buzzing about no death pets in pve content? I don't know all the facts or more than what I've stated, but if it is true that the bear will no longer die in pve combat does this not make the Eternal Guardian morph completely useless now? I'm semi hopeful that the devs will catch this, but I can't help to believe that they'll cater any more to wardens then what they've already done.
  • pauli133
    pauli133
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    I just really, really don't like feeling compelled to run pets. Ever. If other people want to, that's fine, I just want to have viable builds for each class in each role without having to worry about managing a braindead bot next to me when I don't want to.
  • Nicko_Lps
    Nicko_Lps
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    Yes please please, listen to the tear META wardens have learned from nightblades. Let them be as op as them.


    Dont nerf wardens, buff them MORE
  • MooseKnuckles88
    MooseKnuckles88
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    Bumping this on the off chance a dev might actually see this
  • DanteYoda
    DanteYoda
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    Tasear wrote: »
    I agree with the intent of the change, to make Warden DPS less dependent on the bear. However the rest of the Warden’s toolkit was not buffed nearly enough to make up for this 30% nerf to the bear.

    We asked about this during the meeting, but what kind dps are you guys getting on pts?

    I cannot answer i do not use the PTS sorry..
    All ZoS need to do in my books is put the Bear and Sorc Combat Pets on a single skill bar to work and not make them both bars mandatory to keep up, exactly like Mend Wounds/Mend Spirit/Symbiosis.

    Or their own Third bar ;)
    I agree the initial image of the warden was the iconic bear, I actually do like the bear.
    What I don't like about the bear is how dps reliant wardens are on the bear. In my honest opinion, the bear should not be 100% dps oriented, it should offer buffs or debuffs to help make the warden stronger in a fight, not do the fight for the warden. If the devs let the bear be the provider for minor toughness, then I predict a huge out cry for bears, but since the bear are exclusively dps oriented then it'll just be a back and forth between buff or nerf dps circle.

    If going through with bears getting slapped 30% dps reduction then consider:

    +Add % dps to bear execute
    +Add dps to swarm
    +Add dps to Impaling Shards
    +Add % dps to piercing cold passive

    All these (except bear execute) would buff magden and not really stamden.

    Or leave everything as is and just reduce bear dps by 15% instead of 30%.

    Add Dot back to Arctic blast base skill..
    max_only wrote: »
    pauli133 wrote: »
    I just really, really don't like feeling compelled to run pets. Ever. If other people want to, that's fine, I just want to have viable builds for each class in each role without having to worry about managing a braindead bot next to me when I don't want to.

    There are 3 classes that don’t have pets at all. Have you tried them?

    How many of those classes run ice magic?
    Edited by DanteYoda on October 3, 2018 11:40PM
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    pauli133 wrote: »
    I just really, really don't like feeling compelled to run pets. Ever. If other people want to, that's fine, I just want to have viable builds for each class in each role without having to worry about managing a braindead bot next to me when I don't want to.

    I like the pets - because they're run server-side so unlike my girls the pets don't have lag. Sometimes that's all that keeps my girls alive.

    2 second lag is a serious killer. Literally. Nope, this sort of game isn't ideal for my connection. But I do love it, and I do have fun, even when I die because I can't get an ulti off, and a defense or heal gets caught in my sort-of-spastic rotation (I had WoW and RIFT keyboarding down to a fine science because I played WoW from '06 to '13, and RIFT which was almost identical as far as rotations, from '13 to '16) but I haven't got that much time here yet.

    Hopefully I'll get things figured out better soon.

    @Zathras: thanks, that was a masterful summation. With 2 second lag, I don't group. My wardens aren't going to be surviving solo looks like.
    Edited by Sylvermynx on October 4, 2018 12:44AM
  • max_only
    max_only
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    Ice staves only taunt if you spend points in that passive, and considering how ice dps is apparently against zos’s vision any class is going to be just as good an ice mage as a warden currently is. You might as well be a sorcerer with an ice staff at this point if one doesn’t like the bear.
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 900 || PC/NA ||
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • xshatox
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    Bear is annoying in PVP. Seen lot warden hide behind their bear.
    Not really powerful but they can keep spawn the bear. There is this guy that keep spamming bear from above keep wall while snipe us from above.
  • Zathras
    Zathras
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    xshatox wrote: »
    Bear is annoying in PVP. Seen lot warden hide behind their bear.
    Not really powerful but they can keep spawn the bear. There is this guy that keep spamming bear from above keep wall while snipe us from above.

    There are a lot of annoyances in PvP. That said, "annoying" isn't lethal. It certainly isn't OP either.

    I remember the joy of sending my Cabalist pet after someone in DAoC. Utterly relentless. And, if you didn't deal with it, it would pound you into paste. The bear? Meh.
    Edited by Zathras on October 4, 2018 1:49PM
    For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. - Douglas Adams

    It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too. - Douglas Adams
  • Kuwhar
    Kuwhar
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    Maybe they can some different utilities to the bear to offset the loss in DPS.

    Fear/stuns/buffs whatever. Just a blanket nerf is very odd
  • MooseKnuckles88
    MooseKnuckles88
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    xshatox wrote: »
    Bear is annoying in PVP. Seen lot warden hide behind their bear.
    Not really powerful but they can keep spawn the bear. There is this guy that keep spamming bear from above keep wall while snipe us from above.

    In my experiences as far as pvp goes, I have seen way more wardens without bears than wardens with bears both magdens and stamdens. Stamdens out number magdens easily 10 to 1 in cyrodiil. As for bgs, the only time I mostly saw wardens with bears is below lv50 battle grounds where people are probably trying to get the xp bonus doing their randoms. These are just my observations in both bgs and cyrodiil.

    And wardens don't really hide behind their bear since the bear charges right into the enemies face, as opposed to sorcs where they can surround themselves with pets making a pet shield lol
    Edited by MooseKnuckles88 on October 4, 2018 2:18PM
  • josiahva
    josiahva
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    Do you people see yet why pet classes are terrible? They are dependent on their pets. This is why I think a necromancer class is a terrible idea...it would just end up as another class you "have" to have this pet or that active to do competitive DPS. ZOS is all about pigeonholing people into builds.
  • LanceFoxMcCloud
    LanceFoxMcCloud
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    I honestly feel Zo$ just doesn't want anyone playing Magden and just won't outright admit it.
    Instead, they're dropping little hints with each patch that we should just give up and join the Elder Blades Online community.
  • Zathras
    Zathras
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    josiahva wrote: »
    Do you people see yet why pet classes are terrible? They are dependent on their pets. This is why I think a necromancer class is a terrible idea...it would just end up as another class you "have" to have this pet or that active to do competitive DPS. ZOS is all about pigeonholing people into builds.

    I have a pet class in every game I've played. Love them. In ESO, they were just terribly implemented, which is a shame because Matt Firor came from DAoC which did pets extremely well. I was hoping some of that would have rubbed off here.

    I would even be happy to have a single slot dumbfire pet. Cast it, it lives for 3 minutes, and you don't have to micromanage it.

    At the end of the day, you simply don't nuke a pet by 30%. Everyone but management seems to see that.
    Edited by Zathras on October 4, 2018 6:57PM
    For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. - Douglas Adams

    It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too. - Douglas Adams
  • Mephisto939
    Mephisto939
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    I only use the bear in PvE personally. For PVP I use storm. I think it's the same for most people.
    Why did the Dunmer cross the road?
    Apparently to get stuck in an eternal load screen!
  • Zardayne
    Zardayne
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    josiahva wrote: »
    Do you people see yet why pet classes are terrible? They are dependent on their pets. This is why I think a necromancer class is a terrible idea...it would just end up as another class you "have" to have this pet or that active to do competitive DPS. ZOS is all about pigeonholing people into builds.

    Pet classes are not terrible when done right, and many in past MMOs have been awesome. For some reason ZOS just takes the lazy way to pet controls and abilities. I love my GW2 ranger pets. I actually have a pet control bar that enables me to control my pet and fire off each animals special abilities. Anyone remember Masterminds from City of Heroes/Villains. That was an awesome pet class. The WoW pets were done just fine too. For some reason "this" company doesn't get it.
  • Zardayne
    Zardayne
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    Zathras wrote: »
    josiahva wrote: »
    Do you people see yet why pet classes are terrible? They are dependent on their pets. This is why I think a necromancer class is a terrible idea...it would just end up as another class you "have" to have this pet or that active to do competitive DPS. ZOS is all about pigeonholing people into builds.

    I have a pet class in every game I've played. Love them. In ESO, they were just terribly implemented, which is a shame because Matt Firor came from DAoC which did pets extremely well. I was hoping some of that would have rubbed off here.

    I would even be happy to have a single slot dumbfire pet. Cast it, it lives for 3 minutes, and you don't have to micromanage it.

    At the end of the day, you simply don't nuke a pet by 30%. Everyone but management seems to see that.

    I too would like to go a "dumbfire" temp pet if it's the only way ZOS can handle it. I mentioned that on the Warden Class boards since in EQ 2 the Warden had summoned temporary wolves that worked. If we had that you could even use them in PVP.

    Here I dug up the old EQ2 vid of the wolves
    Here's a link to the EQ2 Warden's Summon Wolves clips (Starts at 1:44) that really got me thinking about the temporary summons route. Of course this is an older MMO so it could look even better than this.
    Edited by Zardayne on October 4, 2018 7:30PM
  • max_only
    max_only
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    Keep bear topics up front
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 900 || PC/NA ||
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • LanceFoxMcCloud
    LanceFoxMcCloud
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    Wonder if it's time to investigate refund proceedings since we purchased a product that was clearly falsely advertised.
  • Zathras
    Zathras
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    Zardayne wrote: »
    Zathras wrote: »
    josiahva wrote: »
    Do you people see yet why pet classes are terrible? They are dependent on their pets. This is why I think a necromancer class is a terrible idea...it would just end up as another class you "have" to have this pet or that active to do competitive DPS. ZOS is all about pigeonholing people into builds.

    I have a pet class in every game I've played. Love them. In ESO, they were just terribly implemented, which is a shame because Matt Firor came from DAoC which did pets extremely well. I was hoping some of that would have rubbed off here.

    I would even be happy to have a single slot dumbfire pet. Cast it, it lives for 3 minutes, and you don't have to micromanage it.

    At the end of the day, you simply don't nuke a pet by 30%. Everyone but management seems to see that.

    I too would like to go a "dumbfire" temp pet if it's the only way ZOS can handle it. I mentioned that on the Warden Class boards since in EQ 2 the Warden had summoned temporary wolves that worked. If we had that you could even use them in PVP.

    Here I dug up the old EQ2 vid of the wolves
    Here's a link to the EQ2 Warden's Summon Wolves clips (Starts at 1:44) that really got me thinking about the temporary summons route. Of course this is an older MMO so it could look even better than this.

    Aww you made me miss EQ2 for a minute. I played that for years. I was actually thinking of going back, but Daybreak is such a clusterf I don't even want to make the attempt again.

    Anyway, they managed pets exceedingly well, and the game is 14 years old. It stuns me that we haven't built on all that knowledge, improving them even further given our current technology. It boils down to laziness, imho. And, with the bear being even further marginalized in ESO, it really bold and underscores that they simply don't want to deal with it any more.

    For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. - Douglas Adams

    It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too. - Douglas Adams
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    The closer nerfmire comes to release the sadder I am. The only classes that work reliably for me are pet classes (that hasn't changed since WoW/RIFT), and major changes to both are like a one-two punch to my ability to play much at all.

    It's sad - I love Elder Scrolls, and I really wanted to enjoy ESO. I have so far been happy playing, mostly because I could jump on my wardens or sorcerers when playing other classes showed me that my ping is far too high to make much of anything else really work.

    I'm not leaving.... and I'm not unsubbing.... but we'll see how far it goes. I'll give both "new nerf areas" time to see how they work. The bear is really heartbreaking for me though - because the wardens remind me of all the years I played hunters in earlier games.

    "Adapt or quit" I guess.
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