Minor Toughness aka forced diversity

ccmedaddy

db0ssman wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

db0ssman wrote: »

I don't mind that much if wardens get a monopoly on one skill. I mean right now Templars have a monopoly on purge. Currently the only replacement for the templar purge is the far inferior purge in alliance war. You can play circle of protection for a far inferior version of the minor protection. Now we just need exclusives for the other healers. It could look like:

Buff twighlight matriarch - exclusive healing pet that gives free heals over an extended time

Buff refreshing path to have major evasion & not drop until unsummon - NB exclusive major expedition & evasion

Give dk a regular multi-proc shield - exclusive access to shielding others

I know it's not 100% accurate (like sorc has an ult based purge, but that means few casts, eating an ult slot, poor dk has an ult based shield) I guess this means that something like rapid manuevers would need major evasion too.

.... No.

Every class except Warden already has a unique minor buff built into their kit. ZOS is simply leveling the playing field by giving Warden Minor Toughness, although in my opinion that buff is still less useful for end-game PvE than the other buffs.

There seems to be some confusion on the forums to which buff they are getting, because some say protection (-8% damage) and some say toughness (+8% health), but you are kidding yourself if you don't think either to be exclusive isn't open. Look at the NB one, slight increase to stam crit when you crit yourself. That is laughably bad in comparison. In a vet dungeon the tank and maybe 1 DPS (though with the heavy mag focus in pve prob just the tank) will get a small crit chance increase vs the whole team being able to sustain 8% more damage. How can you compare the two?

If you think 6% extra crit chance or 10% extra spell/weapon damage is useless in endgame PvE scenarios then I guess we must be playing different games. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

db0ssman

NB doesn't add minor berserk to the group, and it is way less than 6% and only for stam toons. Compared to adding damage mitigation which is important for surviving lethal damage beyond what healing can do, it is way stronger than a small crit chance for an underplayed class (in pve). Keep in mind, this was couched in saying different healers should have class exclusive abilities. So, this is from a healer's perspective, not DPS.

ccmedaddy

db0ssman wrote: »

NB doesn't add minor berserk to the group, and it is way less than 6% and only for stam toons. Compared to adding damage mitigation which is important for surviving lethal damage beyond what healing can do, it is way stronger than a small crit chance for an underplayed class (in pve). Keep in mind, this was couched in saying different healers should have class exclusive abilities. So, this is from a healer's perspective, not DPS.

You're the one that's confused. I'm not talking about Minor Berserk, I'm talking about these minor buffs:

Templar: Minor Sorcery (10% spell dmg)
DKs: Minor Brutality (10% wpn dmg)
NB: Minor Savagery (6% wpn crit)
Sorc: Minor Prophecy (6% spell crit)

Every class bar Warden already has a unique buff, so your idea that these classes should get some extra perks in their kit to compensate for Warden getting Minor Toughness is ridiculous.

Maura_Neysa

...

db0ssman wrote: »

There seems to be some confusion on the forums to which buff they are getting, because some say protection (-8% damage) and some say toughness (+8% health), but you are kidding yourself if you don't think either to be exclusive isn't open. Look at the NB one, slight increase to stam crit when you crit yourself. That is laughably bad in comparison. In a vet dungeon the tank and maybe 1 DPS (though with the heavy mag focus in pve prob just the tank) will get a small crit chance increase vs the whole team being able to sustain 8% more damage. How can you compare the two?

Dah fluke?
Minor Protection isn't unique buff, you can get that from many sources
Minor Toughness is 10% Health, not 8%
Warden is STILL behind every other Class because EVERY OTHER class only needs to cast a skill from a skill line, Warden still has to heal you with it, meaning a Warden running Lotus wont cut it. Only a Warden Healer or Tank will be able to maintain this group buff. We will look at the NB one, When dealing Critical Damage you give your group Minor Savagery for 20sec. A NB Tank running Mediate and Block Tanking is still going to Crit once every 20 seconds. A Warden DPS with a perfect weave still wont heal everyone once per every 20 seconds reliably.

And Again Minor Protection isn't a Group Buff, never has been. Just a skill buff the Warden has, as well as Fighters Guild Ability: Circle of Protection+Morphs, Templar Restoring Light Ability: Restoring Focus (Morph of Rune Focus) (going away), Nightblade Shadow Ability: Dark Cloak (Morph of Shadow Cloak), Warden Winter's Embrace Ability: Ice Fortress (Morph of Frost Cloak), Psijic Order Ultimate: Temporal Guard (Morph of Undo), Alchemy Potion/Poison: Protection (Nightshade, Mudcrab Chitin, Beetle Scuttle), Armor Set: Vampire Cloak (Loot)

db0ssman

Believe me when I say Templars don't need extra exclusive abilities. I meant each class should have exclusive healing abilities to make them worth playing. You can argue that wardens have a cheap high heal ult, special ult gen, & toughness (which now isn't even available via any other means). There is a huge asymetry between the usefulness of those perks. For example savagery is worthless in most small groups (in pve at least). Toughness, & sorcery will help any group in any content. I was just trying to point out that if they really want any class/ any role they need each class healer to have supior versions of shared abilities like warden/(and especially)Templars already have. Otherwise dk/sorc/NB are only going to viable as chasing crappy versions of Templar.

Maura_Neysa

db0ssman wrote: »

Believe me when I say Templars don't need extra exclusive abilities. I meant each class should have exclusive healing abilities to make them worth playing. You can argue that wardens have a cheap high heal ult, special ult gen, & toughness (which now isn't even available via any other means). There is a huge asymetry between the usefulness of those perks. For example savagery is worthless in most small groups (in pve at least). Toughness, & sorcery will help any group in any content. I was just trying to point out that if they really want any class/ any role they need each class healer to have supior versions of shared abilities like warden/(and especially)Templars already have. Otherwise dk/sorc/NB are only going to viable as chasing crappy versions of Templar.

Who is saying Templars need any exclusive ability? Templar need some DPS love and a AoE Root skill.

Actually Minor Toughness still has another more useful source than every other classes Minor group buff. The armor set Warrior Poet, which is actually pretty good if not for the easily accessible 5 Piece....

Every Healer can have Shards via Orbs, Templars are BiS Healer because of Purge and mindless BoL spam covering up mediocre skill.
Sorcs have the most powerful heal in the game
NB bring high DPS along with the heals
DK are really the only one lacking an identity, which would be easily solved via giving the class a synergy to offer, or Buffing Fragmented Shield to a decent shield for allies (make it scale on healing strength)

db0ssman

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

db0ssman wrote: »

Believe me when I say Templars don't need extra exclusive abilities. I meant each class should have exclusive healing abilities to make them worth playing. You can argue that wardens have a cheap high heal ult, special ult gen, & toughness (which now isn't even available via any other means). There is a huge asymetry between the usefulness of those perks. For example savagery is worthless in most small groups (in pve at least). Toughness, & sorcery will help any group in any content. I was just trying to point out that if they really want any class/ any role they need each class healer to have supior versions of shared abilities like warden/(and especially)Templars already have. Otherwise dk/sorc/NB are only going to viable as chasing crappy versions of Templar.

Who is saying Templars need any exclusive ability? Templar need some DPS love and a AoE Root skill.

Actually Minor Toughness still has another more useful source than every other classes Minor group buff. The armor set Warrior Poet, which is actually pretty good if not for the easily accessible 5 Piece....

Every Healer can have Shards via Orbs, Templars are BiS Healer because of Purge and mindless BoL spam covering up mediocre skill.
Sorcs have the most powerful heal in the game
NB bring high DPS along with the heals
DK are really the only one lacking an identity, which would be easily solved via giving the class a synergy to offer, or Buffing Fragmented Shield to a decent shield for allies (make it scale on healing strength)

I think this is getting past the original point I was making, but you are more or less saying things in line with my OP. My point isn't that they have exclusive use of those functions, they have exclusive use of the superior versions of those abilities. Templar purge > regular purge, shards > orbs (AND they can use both). Warden is getting the superior version of pancea with having exclusive access to toughness (with toughness being better for healers than the other 'free' passives. With the closest being templar's prophecy and worst being NB savagery). My point is that I think it's fine for warden to have this,but then NB, sorc, & dk need exclusive access to superior versions of useful abilities. (Also on the PTS they are either greatly reducing or even removing the DPS from NB healer spells. They don't want them doing damage anymore, but didn't offer any utility in exchange).

I basically said this could be accomplished by buffing NB to give major evasion and speed in refreshing path (but they would need to buff rapid man to make the worse version) give dk a multi-shield ability that is better than ward Ally and buff twighlight matriarch to be a better hot than others could have.