Minor Toughness aka forced diversity

FakeFox

With Murkmire Minor Toughness will become a more or less Warden exclusive buff, giving groups a reason to finally bring a Warden. I generally appreciate the idea of giving classes a unique benefit that makes them worth considering even if they underperform, however for me there is a point at which it becomes forced diversity, with the class being simply too weak or the unique buff too strong. And I’m currently wondering if this line has been crossed with this change to Warden.

A high uptime of Minor Toughness on the current PTS requires every player in the group to be healed by a Warden at least once every twenty seconds. This in my opinion makes healer the best role for the Warden providing this buff. And that is where I see the issue. Warden healer has currently a lot of problems leading to it barely being used in endgame PvE. A lack of unique benefits is one of them and I’m glad to see it being addressed. However it is the only problem getting addressed. The main reason I don’t play as a Warden healer in progress groups is it’s inconvenience and unreliability. It has a lot of skills with potential, but I can’t rely on skills that don’t consistently hit, as a heal not going off means somebody will probably die. If I have to use weapon and guild skills because the class abilities are just too weak, what is the point of even playing as this class in the first place? Warden Healer becomes pretty much a cheap version of Templar with the same bars, just without Templars actually good class abilities. I could provide Minor Lifesteal with Leeching Vines, too bad it’s targeting is so bad I can’t consistently apply it. Budding Seed gives a unique synergy that could provide additional Alkosh uptime, too bad the skill is so mechanically convoluted that it can’t replace Healing Springs and so I can’t fit it on my bar without dropping a important skill. And I also have some really good passives, just that they only trigger from the spells I can’t use because they are so unreliable.

I could go on with this but I guess you get the point by now and it starts losing comedic value as well. Addressing a single issue does not fix a whole class. This class is out for over a year now and nothing has been done to actually fix it, while other classes have gotten complete reworks, and now it is forced into raid groups with still no changes.

idk

The thread linked below puts it into perspective.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437636/minor-toughness-behind-paywall#latest

WrathOfInnos

I think there is also a big difference between what was requested and what was received. Warden was not given a new buff that would help groups complete content, instead this important group survival buff was simply removed from any player that is not a Warden.

Post patch, there will be groups that do not have a Warden that will suddenly find themselves unable to clear content that they previously could. I do not like this situation of forced negative progression. They would need to find or level a Warden just to get back to where they were before.

A new buff, on the other hand, like if Wardens were given a unique 5% health boost that stacked with Minor Toughness, would mean that groups without Wardens were not hurt by the change, but they would still have the motivation to get a Warden in group and make their team even better.

Taleof2Cities

idk wrote: »

The thread linked below puts it into perspective.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437636/minor-toughness-behind-paywall#latest

There are a lot of forum threads that complain about Warden participation in Trials too.

Has anyone actually tested a Warden Healer in a Trial Raid on PTS?

Or, is the aversion to this change coming from players that like the status quo and don't want to try something new?

MLGProPlayer

Wardens suck. So rather than buffing them to be more effective, ZOS is just forcing us to use them.

It's lazy "balancing".

FakeFox

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The thread linked below puts it into perspective.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437636/minor-toughness-behind-paywall#latest

There are a lot of forum threads that complain about Warden participation in Trials too.

Has anyone actually tested a Warden Healer in a Trial Raid on PTS?

Or, is the aversion to this change coming from players that like the status quo and don't want to try something new?

I'm constantly testing Warden Healer when something relevant changes, but the thing is absolutely nothing relevant has changed this PTS so far. The only change is the Minor Toughness, which doesn't need testing as it is mechanically still the same.

Liofa

I am copying this from the previous meeting notes.

"They want to prevent a scenario where a real-life issue caused the stamina Warden to drop raid and then they couldn’t do the trial because no other stamina Warden was available"

And now they give one of the best buffs to Warden only. There are many, many examples of wrong things they are doing. This is just a small fracture of it.

SodanTok

Unpopular opinion (or point of view) but why is Minor Toughness treated like buff needed to make people survive and not as buff allowing people to spec less health and gain more damage. Not that I disagree with general opinion about the strength or need for this buff, but losing this buff doesnt make less experienced groups suddenly unable to complete content. All those 15k-16k hp DD will just have to start being 17k hp dds again and not follow build advice of 'put 64 points into your main resource'

Obviously doesnt change how this was totally unnecessary change and didnt made DD wardens (those that needed help) any more wanted...

WrathOfInnos

SodanTok wrote: »

Unpopular opinion (or point of view) but why is Minor Toughness treated like buff needed to make people survive and not as buff allowing people to spec less health and gain more damage. Not that I disagree with general opinion about the strength or need for this buff, but losing this buff doesnt make less experienced groups suddenly unable to complete content. All those 15k-16k hp DD will just have to start being 17k hp dds again and not follow build advice of 'put 64 points into your main resource'

Obviously doesnt change how this was totally unnecessary change and didnt made DD wardens (those that needed help) any more wanted...

You are correct in the situation where a long term progression group chose to optimize around not having a Warden for Minor Toughness. They would need to rebalance attributes and effectively lower damage to still meet minimum health thresholds for some mechanics.

The difference is for a situation where a group with a Warden healer ends up with a Templar sub for a trial. Most likely 11 people will not respec their attributes, and their damage will be fine while their survivability will suffer.

Either way, there are both DPS minimums and health minimums that must be met to complete content. If either is suddenly reduced it will affect what content groups can clear, especially for those that were already struggling.

ccmedaddy

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

WrathOfInnos

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

It’s slightly better than the others, but that’s not really the point. In fact I think people are taking this change pretty well. There would be a lot more complaining about this if it had been a damage buff moved to Wardens.

For example, imagine if Major Courage had been removed from Olorime and SPC (available to all classes) and replaced by nothing. Then Major Courage was added to Enchanted Growth as a Warden exclusive buff. Suddenly healers of other classes wouldn’t be wanted, and the forums would be exploding with threads about it. I would argue that Minor Toughness is nearly as beneficial as Major Courage.

Edit: To put it another way. Most of the community thought that there should be a benefit to bring Wardens to raids, instead we received a detriment to leaving Wardens out of raids. 1/5 classes asked for a carrot, got nothing new, and the other 4/5 classes got the stick.

ccmedaddy

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

It’s slightly better than the others, but that’s not really the point. In fact I think people are taking this change pretty well. There would be a lot more complaining about this if it had been a damage buff moved to Wardens.

For example, imagine if Major Courage had been removed from Olorime and SPC (available to all classes) and replaced by nothing. Then Major Courage was added to Enchanted Growth as a Warden exclusive buff. Suddenly healers of other classes wouldn’t be wanted, and the forums would be exploding with threads about it. I would argue that Minor Toughness is nearly as beneficial as Major Courage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 258 spell/wpn damage you get from Major Courage is less than what the typical PvE DPS will get from Minor Brutality/Sorcery next patch, no?

And just to clarify, my comment about people being melodramatic wasn't really about this thread per se; there are multiple threads on this topic in which people are calling the Warden class "P2W" now because of Minor Toughness. Apologies to the OP and everyone else in this thread who are discussing this issue in a reasonable manner.

I am willing to bet $$$ most end-game trial groups who actually care about stuff like Minor Toughness would much rather have the minor buffs that buff group DPS, rather than group health. It's too bad that ZOS was too lazy to come up with a new unique buff for Warden that could help them in both DPS and support roles instead of taking away an existing buff from everyone else, but I really don't understand why people are acting like this will make Warden any more of a requirement than other classes in PvE.

WrathOfInnos

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 258 spell/wpn damage you get from Major Courage is less than what the typical PvE DPS will get from Minor Brutality/Sorcery next patch, no?

@ccmedaddy It can be pretty close. With Siroria and Spell Strategist many builds will exceed 4K Spell damage before any % multipliers, so Templar’s Minor Sorcery for example will give 10% or 405 Spell Damage. Realistically Major Courage gives 322 Spell damage after buffs, so only slightly less.

As for toughness, many groups ignore it for most trials, but for things like vCR+3 the health is very important.

Edit: Fixed mistake in Minor Sorcery values

ccmedaddy

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 258 spell/wpn damage you get from Major Courage is less than what the typical PvE DPS will get from Minor Brutality/Sorcery next patch, no?

@ccmedaddy It can be pretty close. With Siroria and Spell Strategist many builds will exceed 4K Spell damage before any % multipliers, so Templar’s Minor Sorcery for example will give 6% or 243 Spell Damage. Realistically Major Courage gives 322 Spell damage after buffs, so still slightly more.

But minor buffs are getting doubled next patch so it's like ~400 spell damage, right?

*laughs in magplar

WrathOfInnos

@ccmedaddy You’re right, I was thinking Minor Sorcery was going to 6%, but it’s actually 10%, which makes it worth 405 Spell damage. It is better than Major Courage. I’ll fix my last post to reflect this.

Maura_Neysa

Minor Toughness is still behind every other class group buff.
Now ever class has access to two sources of those buffs. Every other class the second sources is a crappy poison. Minor Toughness can still be obtained through a so-so Armor set. Though it is also behind a paywall Note: Warden is not really behind a pay wall anymore since its now Crowns. Either way though Minor Toughness was un-blanced, now it is.

Give Warden some other Group Utility buff and I am fine with that too, but this solution is also good

OrphanHelgen

They should remove all group synergy each class give and just make every class unique and selfish. Problem solved.
Seriously.

SirDopey

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

Yep, Minor Brutality for DK's that will increase weapon damage by 10% as well.

People are just pissed that it's been given to warden's and not the class they like playing...

Maura_Neysa

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

They should remove all group synergy each class give and just make every class unique and selfish. Problem solved.
Seriously.

Umm yeah, no. That would kill the game, see current Trial meta if you have doubts

SirDopey wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

Yep, Minor Brutality for DK's that will increase weapon damage by 10% as well.

People are just pissed that it's been given to warden's and not the class they like playing...

Being encourage to have to bring 1DK, 1 Templar, 1 Sroc, 1 Warden, and 8 NB is not exactly "game breaking"

FakeFox

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

It probably isn't, but it behaves differently and that is where I think the problem lies. First it is a defensive buff that requires a group to optimize around. Second it is not provided by the class simply being present, but by performing a specific action bound to a role. Third it is the only reason to have a otherwise under performing build in a raid group.

SirDopey

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

They should remove all group synergy each class give and just make every class unique and selfish. Problem solved.
Seriously.

Umm yeah, no. That would kill the game, see current Trial meta if you have doubts

SirDopey wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

Yep, Minor Brutality for DK's that will increase weapon damage by 10% as well.

People are just pissed that it's been given to warden's and not the class they like playing...

Being encourage to have to bring 1DK, 1 Templar, 1 Sroc, 1 Warden, and 8 NB is not exactly "game breaking"

Agree'd. I really don't see what all the fuss is about

Nifty2g

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

They should remove all group synergy each class give and just make every class unique and selfish. Problem solved.
Seriously.

Umm yeah, no. That would kill the game, see current Trial meta if you have doubts

SirDopey wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

Yep, Minor Brutality for DK's that will increase weapon damage by 10% as well.

People are just pissed that it's been given to warden's and not the class they like playing...

Being encourage to have to bring 1DK, 1 Templar, 1 Sroc, 1 Warden, and 8 NB is not exactly "game breaking"

It's not exactly that, it's more so that the Warden is not part of the base game, and the fact that this is the start of a buff category moving to a paywall. No matter how you can get it with gold or whatever, just remember that for quite a strong buff category will be a small fee, ALL buff categories should be base game.

Kikke

Removing something everyone have had access too for years and giving is exclusively to wardens. Just lazy, and goes against previous said statements from ZOS.

idk

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The thread linked below puts it into perspective.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437636/minor-toughness-behind-paywall#latest

There are a lot of forum threads that complain about Warden participation in Trials too.

Has anyone actually tested a Warden Healer in a Trial Raid on PTS?

Or, is the aversion to this change coming from players that like the status quo and don't want to try something new?

Outside of the new arena I doubt anyone is working on grouped content.

But it does raise a solid issue in that one Warden would be challenged to keep MT up on an entire group in many fights.

vMoL twins is one fight at the top of my head that a Warden would not be healing the entire group yet WH can reach the entire group on live being many keep the bosses somewhat near the middle just for that reason.

FakeFox

idk wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The thread linked below puts it into perspective.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437636/minor-toughness-behind-paywall#latest

There are a lot of forum threads that complain about Warden participation in Trials too.

Has anyone actually tested a Warden Healer in a Trial Raid on PTS?

Or, is the aversion to this change coming from players that like the status quo and don't want to try something new?

Outside of the new arena I doubt anyone is working on grouped content.

But it does raise a solid issue in that one Warden would be challenged to keep MT up on an entire group in many fights.

vMoL twins is one fight at the top of my head that a Warden would not be healing the entire group yet WH can reach the entire group on live being many keep the bosses somewhat near the middle just for that reason.

If the Warden applying it is a healer this is not problematic. It basically works the same way Olorime works for fights with split up groups. I think the only fight where it is actually impossible are the second bosses in HRC

Maura_Neysa

FakeFox wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

It probably isn't, but it behaves differently and that is where I think the problem lies. First it is a defensive buff that requires a group to optimize around. Second it is not provided by the class simply being present, but by performing a specific action bound to a role. Third it is the only reason to have a otherwise under performing build in a raid group.

I agree why is t it just cast a Nature skill like every other classes group buff?

Maura_Neysa

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

They should remove all group synergy each class give and just make every class unique and selfish. Problem solved.
Seriously.

Umm yeah, no. That would kill the game, see current Trial meta if you have doubts

SirDopey wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

Yep, Minor Brutality for DK's that will increase weapon damage by 10% as well.

People are just pissed that it's been given to warden's and not the class they like playing...

Being encourage to have to bring 1DK, 1 Templar, 1 Sroc, 1 Warden, and 8 NB is not exactly "game breaking"

It's not exactly that, it's more so that the Warden is not part of the base game, and the fact that this is the start of a buff category moving to a paywall. No matter how you can get it with gold or whatever, just remember that for quite a strong buff category will be a small fee, ALL buff categories should be base game.

Because this is so much different than Prismatics behind a paywall, Swift, Bloodthirsty, Earthgore, Soira?
Your logic does not compute.

Taleof2Cities

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

They should remove all group synergy each class give and just make every class unique and selfish. Problem solved.
Seriously.

Umm yeah, no. That would kill the game, see current Trial meta if you have doubts

SirDopey wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I'm not convinced that Minor Toughness as a unique buff is any more important than the minor buffs that all other classes have (e.g. 10% extra spell dmg that Templars provide to group). People are being so melodramatic about this lol.

Yep, Minor Brutality for DK's that will increase weapon damage by 10% as well.

People are just pissed that it's been given to warden's and not the class they like playing...

Being encourage to have to bring 1DK, 1 Templar, 1 Sroc, 1 Warden, and 8 NB is not exactly "game breaking"

It's not exactly that, it's more so that the Warden is not part of the base game, and the fact that this is the start of a buff category moving to a paywall. No matter how you can get it with gold or whatever, just remember that for quite a strong buff category will be a small fee, ALL buff categories should be base game.

Because this is so much different than Prismatics behind a paywall, Swift, Bloodthirsty, Earthgore, Soira?
Your logic does not compute.

I know right?

Some players have an extremely difficult time grasping changes. Even if it’s a minor buff that itself is unchanged and just moving to a different role.

db0ssman

I don't mind that much if wardens get a monopoly on one skill. I mean right now Templars have a monopoly on purge. Currently the only replacement for the templar purge is the far inferior purge in alliance war. You can play circle of protection for a far inferior version of the minor protection. Now we just need exclusives for the other healers. It could look like:

Buff twighlight matriarch - exclusive healing pet that gives free heals over an extended time

Buff refreshing path to have major evasion & not drop until unsummon - NB exclusive major expedition & evasion

Give dk a regular multi-proc shield - exclusive access to shielding others

I know it's not 100% accurate (like sorc has an ult based purge, but that means few casts, eating an ult slot, poor dk has an ult based shield) I guess this means that something like rapid manuevers would need major evasion too.

ccmedaddy

db0ssman wrote: »

I don't mind that much if wardens get a monopoly on one skill. I mean right now Templars have a monopoly on purge. Currently the only replacement for the templar purge is the far inferior purge in alliance war. You can play circle of protection for a far inferior version of the minor protection. Now we just need exclusives for the other healers. It could look like:

Buff twighlight matriarch - exclusive healing pet that gives free heals over an extended time

Buff refreshing path to have major evasion & not drop until unsummon - NB exclusive major expedition & evasion

Give dk a regular multi-proc shield - exclusive access to shielding others

I know it's not 100% accurate (like sorc has an ult based purge, but that means few casts, eating an ult slot, poor dk has an ult based shield) I guess this means that something like rapid manuevers would need major evasion too.

.... No.

Every class except Warden already has a unique minor buff built into their kit. ZOS is simply leveling the playing field by giving Warden Minor Toughness, although in my opinion that buff is still less useful for end-game PvE than the other buffs.

db0ssman

ccmedaddy wrote: »

db0ssman wrote: »

I don't mind that much if wardens get a monopoly on one skill. I mean right now Templars have a monopoly on purge. Currently the only replacement for the templar purge is the far inferior purge in alliance war. You can play circle of protection for a far inferior version of the minor protection. Now we just need exclusives for the other healers. It could look like:

Buff twighlight matriarch - exclusive healing pet that gives free heals over an extended time

Buff refreshing path to have major evasion & not drop until unsummon - NB exclusive major expedition & evasion

Give dk a regular multi-proc shield - exclusive access to shielding others

I know it's not 100% accurate (like sorc has an ult based purge, but that means few casts, eating an ult slot, poor dk has an ult based shield) I guess this means that something like rapid manuevers would need major evasion too.

.... No.

Every class except Warden already has a unique minor buff built into their kit. ZOS is simply leveling the playing field by giving Warden Minor Toughness, although in my opinion that buff is still less useful for end-game PvE than the other buffs.

There seems to be some confusion on the forums to which buff they are getting, because some say protection (-8% damage) and some say toughness (+8% health), but you are kidding yourself if you don't think either to be exclusive isn't open. Look at the NB one, slight increase to stam crit when you crit yourself. That is laughably bad in comparison. In a vet dungeon the tank and maybe 1 DPS (though with the heavy mag focus in pve prob just the tank) will get a small crit chance increase vs the whole team being able to sustain 8% more damage. How can you compare the two?