The Stamina Sorceror and the Lack of Identity

Imperial_Voice

Before I begin Id like to stress two points. The first being that this is not a post regarding shield changes and the second being that this post is not an appeal for Sorceror buffs, at least not directly.

Id like to discuss, with hopes that ZoS takes into consideration, the severe pack of class identity currently afforded to Stamina Sorcerors. Each class is given its three class-locked skill trees which each have their own unique morphs to allow them to suit any playstyle, often this change is visible such as StamDKs getting emerald fire with their Stamina morphs and in many other cases the change is more about how the skill functions and carries little visble change. These abilities are what identify a class. If you see a golden javelin spearing an enemy in the chest you know its a Templar, if you see a player vanish in an instant its a Nightblade, a mighty storm of frozen winds is a Warden, and great infernos of raging flame are Dragonknights. Each of these have various morphs that allow them to fit these skills to either a Stamina or Magicka based playstyles. The StamSorc however lacks these sort of options and instead has only a small portion of abilities that make it feel unique among stamina players.

The Hurricane morph converts lightning form into a physical damage ability, the Bound Armaments empowers light attacks, and Dark Deal restores Health and Stamina and (unless Im forgetting an ability that has a morph exclusively for Stamina builds) thats about it. This means that most Stamina Sorcerors will instead use mostly general weapon skills like Steel Tornado or Reverse Slash instead of abilities that make the class genuinely fun, because most Sorceror skills are exclusive to Magicka builds.

Locked away from Stamina Sorcerors are our execute ability Mages Fury, any primary damage dealin ability (Crystal Shard has no physical morph) and all three of our ultimates. This means that we rely heavily on Weapon Skills when using a Stamina builds and since Hurricane is the only ability that has a real visual presence in combat we have almost nothing in the way of actually making us feel like Sorcerors.

What I would like ZoS to consider to remedy this is simply giving Sorcerors a few stamina morphs to give the class back its sense of self. Perhaps give mages fury a physical damage version, Crystal Shard a melee range (Remember Tes3/4 "touch" spells?) Instant physical damage morph, and for the love of the divines let Stamina Sorcerors have one of their ultimates, a hurricanesque version of Overload seems logical and reasonable.

Im hoping that we can get some community support here and hopefully ZoS will consider these small but desperately needed QoL changes for Stamina Sorceror to give it an actual sense of Identity.

TL;DR: StamSorcs have almost no morphs based on physical damage and out of all classes this makes them feel the most generic as they almost exclusively use non-sorc skills. I would like ZoS to look into changing that by simply adding a few physical damage morphs.

AhPook_Is_Here

It's a pretty boring, sta sorc, 2/3 of the passives don't help your game. How many sorc skills do you slot as a stam sorc, next patch one on each bar, hurricane and surge?

Imperial_Voice

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

It's a pretty boring, sta sorc, 2/3 of the passives don't help your game. How many sorc skills do you slot as a stam sorc, next patch one on each bar, hurricane and surge?

Currently I slot Hurricane on my main bar and Bound Armaments and Dark Deal on thr back bar on my StamSorc because i dont have many other options for my class.

TiZzA93

I main magden and stamsorc and i definitely feel just changing some visual on stamsorc could help like you said overload cud have a physical dmg morph with small twisters going up the arms and maybe mages wrath changed to a gust of wind slammed on top of them

nryerson1025

one thing that really irks me, i spent a lot of time on my outfit when that whole thing came out. however, i am n ever able to actually see it because of hurricane

AhPook_Is_Here

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

It's a pretty boring, sta sorc, 2/3 of the passives don't help your game. How many sorc skills do you slot as a stam sorc, next patch one on each bar, hurricane and surge?

Currently I slot Hurricane on my main bar and Bound Armaments and Dark Deal on thr back bar on my StamSorc because i dont have many other options for my class.

Are you going to use dark deal and bound armaments next patch? If you are going to use BA for the block bonus you won't be regenerating STA with DD (on the back side of the 50% stat restore) if you are blocking. If you are running a heavy armor build heavy attacks are going to be better at getting you sta back then DD. DD won't trigger any passive that you don't have with nothing in dark magic slotted, and all you get from BA is some sta and magicka regen from passives. Ult reduction you get with or without a skill slotted so it doesn't effect the cost of dawn breaker.

Seems like you are running a PVP build or a tanking build, not many options eh?

Ozazz

Its about to with no 3rd bar overload and a nerfed dark deal

Chilly-McFreeze

Hey, after murkmire we're nothing more but a minor buff and a RNG execute. Warrants for more nerfs, I guess.

Imperial_Voice

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

It's a pretty boring, sta sorc, 2/3 of the passives don't help your game. How many sorc skills do you slot as a stam sorc, next patch one on each bar, hurricane and surge?

Currently I slot Hurricane on my main bar and Bound Armaments and Dark Deal on thr back bar on my StamSorc because i dont have many other options for my class.

Are you going to use dark deal and bound armaments next patch? If you are going to use BA for the block bonus you won't be regenerating STA with DD (on the back side of the 50% stat restore) if you are blocking. If you are running a heavy armor build heavy attacks are going to be better at getting you sta back then DD. DD won't trigger any passive that you don't have with nothing in dark magic slotted, and all you get from BA is some sta and magicka regen from passives. Ult reduction you get with or without a skill slotted so it doesn't effect the cost of dawn breaker.

Seems like you are running a PVP build or a tanking build, not many options eh?

Youre correct in that I currently run a PvP build on my StamSorc and no, come November I likely wont run BA any more.

Swomp23

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

These abilities are what identify a class. If you see a golden javelin spearing an enemy in the chest you know its a Templar, if you see a player vanish in an instant its a Nightblade, a mighty storm of frozen winds is a Warden, and great infernos of raging flame are Dragonknights. Each of these have various morphs that allow them to fit these skills to either a Stamina or Magicka based playstyles. The StamSorc however lacks these sort of options and instead has only a small portion of abilities that make it feel unique among stamina players.

I think you forget to mention crit surge. This spell, with hurricane is what defines stam sorc. Being able to heal every time your crit makes sorc the most survivable of the stam classes, imo.

That beign said, those are buffs and DoTs. I agree that stam sorc lacks a spammable. But stam DK lacks one too, having 2 DOTs plus FoO. I don't really know wardens, but the 3 other classes seem to have good spammables.

So the question is, should every class have a stam spammable? Personnally, I think that for fun reasons, the answer should be yes. But if they do, what's the point of hidden blades anymore? Won't sorc and DK, which already have really good buffs and DoTs become way too strong?

The answer to your question is easy, but I'm afraid that the solution isn't.

AcadianPaladin

I run a solo PvE bow/bow stamsorc.
Class skills: BA on both bars, Surge, Hurricane, Dark Deal.
Weapon skills: Hail, Bombard, PI, Lethal Injection.
Other skills: Caltrops, Flawless Dawnbreaker on both bars.

I think the signature Surge + Hurricane gives her plenty of class identity.
Her biggest challenge is sustain. She is built to deal with it but that remains her biggest challenge.

Imperial_Voice

Swomp23 wrote: »

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

These abilities are what identify a class. If you see a golden javelin spearing an enemy in the chest you know its a Templar, if you see a player vanish in an instant its a Nightblade, a mighty storm of frozen winds is a Warden, and great infernos of raging flame are Dragonknights. Each of these have various morphs that allow them to fit these skills to either a Stamina or Magicka based playstyles. The StamSorc however lacks these sort of options and instead has only a small portion of abilities that make it feel unique among stamina players.

I think you forget to mention crit surge. This spell, with hurricane is what defines stam sorc. Being able to heal every time your crit makes sorc the most survivable of the stam classes, imo.

That beign said, those are buffs and DoTs. I agree that stam sorc lacks a spammable. But stam DK lacks one too, having 2 DOTs plus FoO. I don't really know wardens, but the 3 other classes seem to have good spammables.

So the question is, should every class have a stam spammable? Personnally, I think that for fun reasons, the answer should be yes. But if they do, what's the point of hidden blades anymore? Won't sorc and DK, which already have really good buffs and DoTs become way too strong?

The answer to your question is easy, but I'm afraid that the solution isn't.

I left Surge out intentionally because while youre right in that works so well with Hurricane, it isnt specifically morphed for Stamina builds.

I can also see your point about spammables though I dont agree with it since Sorc are the only class without one, but even so much as a physical damage morph for Overload would go a looooooong way to making the class feel more whole. As it stands, almost every StamSorc build you find requires you to slot Dawnbreaker for an Ult.

BigBragg

I wouldn't mind a little TLC for stam sorcs. I haven't played mine indepth in a while, honestly.

Imperial_Voice

nryerson1025 wrote: »

one thing that really irks me, i spent a lot of time on my outfit when that whole thing came out. however, i am n ever able to actually see it because of hurricane

I know how you feel. I remember at launch the Bound Armor skill converted all your armor in a light blue set of medium Daedric and it irked me to no end that I never saw my armor.

Although now that I think of it giving Bound Armaments a visual of replacing your weapons with the "Conjured" equivalent would be a nice way to represent your Sorceror.

Chilly-McFreeze

Swomp23 wrote: »

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

These abilities are what identify a class. If you see a golden javelin spearing an enemy in the chest you know its a Templar, if you see a player vanish in an instant its a Nightblade, a mighty storm of frozen winds is a Warden, and great infernos of raging flame are Dragonknights. Each of these have various morphs that allow them to fit these skills to either a Stamina or Magicka based playstyles. The StamSorc however lacks these sort of options and instead has only a small portion of abilities that make it feel unique among stamina players.

I think you forget to mention crit surge. This spell, with hurricane is what defines stam sorc. Being able to heal every time your crit makes sorc the most survivable of the stam classes, imo.

That beign said, those are buffs and DoTs. I agree that stam sorc lacks a spammable. But stam DK lacks one too, having 2 DOTs plus FoO. I don't really know wardens, but the 3 other classes seem to have good spammables.

So the question is, should every class have a stam spammable? Personnally, I think that for fun reasons, the answer should be yes. But if they do, what's the point of hidden blades anymore? Won't sorc and DK, which already have really good buffs and DoTs become way too strong?

The answer to your question is easy, but I'm afraid that the solution isn't.

There is more to this game than spammables and I'd even say that not every class needs everything. But that's it: not everything but at least something.

Would a spammable be nice? Sure, no denying here. But a physical dmg ultimate would be nice as well. From my PvP perspective I'd even take a physical damage curse. Just something class intern to complement the rest of our toolkit (read: weapon and guild skills).

Chilly-McFreeze

Well, my PTS update goes a little slow. So someone who's download already finished might tell us what the dark deal patch notes mean. Is the initial return back to how it is on live or is it at 75%?

BlackLabel

Swomp23 wrote: »

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

These abilities are what identify a class. If you see a golden javelin spearing an enemy in the chest you know its a Templar, if you see a player vanish in an instant its a Nightblade, a mighty storm of frozen winds is a Warden, and great infernos of raging flame are Dragonknights. Each of these have various morphs that allow them to fit these skills to either a Stamina or Magicka based playstyles. The StamSorc however lacks these sort of options and instead has only a small portion of abilities that make it feel unique among stamina players.

I think you forget to mention crit surge. This spell, with hurricane is what defines stam sorc. Being able to heal every time your crit makes sorc the most survivable of the stam classes, imo.

That beign said, those are buffs and DoTs. I agree that stam sorc lacks a spammable. But stam DK lacks one too, having 2 DOTs plus FoO. I don't really know wardens, but the 3 other classes seem to have good spammables.

So the question is, should every class have a stam spammable? Personnally, I think that for fun reasons, the answer should be yes. But if they do, what's the point of hidden blades anymore? Won't sorc and DK, which already have really good buffs and DoTs become way too strong?

The answer to your question is easy, but I'm afraid that the solution isn't.

Is it most survivable Stam class for pve; but for pvp it is considered a squishy class next to nightblade due to weak healing and mitagation

Imperial_Voice

BlackLabel wrote: »

Swomp23 wrote: »

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

These abilities are what identify a class. If you see a golden javelin spearing an enemy in the chest you know its a Templar, if you see a player vanish in an instant its a Nightblade, a mighty storm of frozen winds is a Warden, and great infernos of raging flame are Dragonknights. Each of these have various morphs that allow them to fit these skills to either a Stamina or Magicka based playstyles. The StamSorc however lacks these sort of options and instead has only a small portion of abilities that make it feel unique among stamina players.

I think you forget to mention crit surge. This spell, with hurricane is what defines stam sorc. Being able to heal every time your crit makes sorc the most survivable of the stam classes, imo.

That beign said, those are buffs and DoTs. I agree that stam sorc lacks a spammable. But stam DK lacks one too, having 2 DOTs plus FoO. I don't really know wardens, but the 3 other classes seem to have good spammables.

So the question is, should every class have a stam spammable? Personnally, I think that for fun reasons, the answer should be yes. But if they do, what's the point of hidden blades anymore? Won't sorc and DK, which already have really good buffs and DoTs become way too strong?

The answer to your question is easy, but I'm afraid that the solution isn't.

Is it most survivable Stam class for pve; but for pvp it is considered a squishy class next to nightblade due to weak healing and mitagation

True but im only discussing the lack of stamina skills for Sorcs not how they perform.

BaylorCorvette

I absolutely agree with this. If you haven't already seen this thread, check it out. We've discussed a physical damage morph for Overload. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5475701#Comment_5475701

I'll echo here what I posted in that thread.

The StamSorc is my main character that I play and I have been PvPing & PvEing for the past two years on this character. The class identity of StamSorc has been mobility and utility via third Overload bar. With Swift Jewelry the mobility aspect is very limited (no point in even running Streak on a StamSorc due to issues streaking on elevation changes). Furthermore the third bar via Overload is being eliminated in this PTS cycle and as a result the main identity of StamSorc is being all but eliminated.

The lack of stamina morphs for damage skills or ults has always been a problem for StamSorc and I believe with the current change to Overload, this is the perfect time to make a change to one of the Overload morphs to be physical damage. As it sits right now there is no good Sorc Ult (Negate is great but only in group situations) for a StamSorc. As @StaticWave has demonstrated in the video in the above thread I linked, Overload weaves really well but would be extremely beneficial to have a physical damage morph. This would really bring StamSorc to StamWarden levels of burst damage.

It has already been mentioned in this thread, but a very large portion of StamSorc passives aren't even applicable to the class.

The Stam morph for Bound Armaments is so dumb, it would be nice to see that ability give something like Major Savagery or some other type of buff.

Hexys

I would like to see a air attronach ultimate instead of the AOE strom atro morph, it fits perfectly in the AoE/storm-wind identity of stamsorc. Also overload can be physical dmg.

NyassaV

The lack of identity is part of it's identity at this point.

JiKama

I kind of like classes having a stam/Magicka morph for their main attack. Like Templars have their jabs, nightblades have their slash, and wardens have their pigeons. I think DKs having a stam poison whip morph could be cool. Maybe crystal frags could have a stam morph that procs with crit damage... idk... When it comes to some abilities I always choose 1 morph, because it just seems better than the other option.

Imperial_Voice

NyassaV wrote: »

The lack of identity is part of it's identity at this point.

Thats my fear with this class at the moment.

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I absolutely agree with this. If you haven't already seen this thread, check it out. We've discussed a physical damage morph for Overload. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5475701#Comment_5475701

I'll echo here what I posted in that thread.

The StamSorc is my main character that I play and I have been PvPing & PvEing for the past two years on this character. The class identity of StamSorc has been mobility and utility via third Overload bar. With Swift Jewelry the mobility aspect is very limited (no point in even running Streak on a StamSorc due to issues streaking on elevation changes). Furthermore the third bar via Overload is being eliminated in this PTS cycle and as a result the main identity of StamSorc is being all but eliminated.

The lack of stamina morphs for damage skills or ults has always been a problem for StamSorc and I believe with the current change to Overload, this is the perfect time to make a change to one of the Overload morphs to be physical damage. As it sits right now there is no good Sorc Ult (Negate is great but only in group situations) for a StamSorc. As @StaticWave has demonstrated in the video in the above thread I linked, Overload weaves really well but would be extremely beneficial to have a physical damage morph. This would really bring StamSorc to StamWarden levels of burst damage.

It has already been mentioned in this thread, but a very large portion of StamSorc passives aren't even applicable to the class.

The Stam morph for Bound Armaments is so dumb, it would be nice to see that ability give something like Major Savagery or some other type of buff.

An excellent post.

Chilly-McFreeze

What do you guys think of bound armor as it's mostly a dead slot on your bars but still somehow mandatory? It also contradicts ZOS' new philosophy of either being an offensive or a defensive skill? A philosophy I find quite lame btw. So I posted something similar in the Sorcerer Feedback thread but it drowned there, as expected.

I think they should add something more universally useful to it. Just a few thoughts:

I'd opt for something healing related, like a player-only vigor/ dark cloak, a burst heal or a good boost to health regen, which would synergyze well with the current Daedric Protection. Maybe even convey that to pets, as I don't know how petsorcs surviability will be hit. But this thread isn't about them anyways. This would benefit PvE and PvP builds but doesn't help too much with the upcomming bar space issues as our 3rd bar gets taken away.

Or sorcs need to become more mobile now (with shields taking a nerf) and swift (+ pots) allowing even the most immobile classes to walk (!) around at 160% movement speed, which effectively robs us of our outlier position of being faster than everyone else thanks to minor expedition. Not to mention how every gap closer counters streak far to easily and that nerfs to Forward Momentum are already in the making.

Although I'd love to see a snare & root cleanse/immunity on Bolt Escape (+ short gap closer immunity, it's already the mobility/escape skill, so it would make sense), I think the second best option to add it would be this skill. You already get nearly mandatory benefits from slotting it, now a snare immunity would make it's active part actual worthwile as well in PvP. Although it would still remain a dead slot in PvE.

But that wouldn't solve the self-contradiction of offense or defense. So since this skill already gives offensive buffs, maybe it should become our (semi-)spamable skill instead?

It probably sounds strange at first. So many great passives and then damage on top of it? But look at what other classes have as spamables, just a few examples:

NB get a stun & off balance (dmg boost) from sneak + major fracture (2nd dmg buff) or sneak speed + 438 crit rating (passives)
StamPlar get AoE & snare + major savagery (dmg boost) or healing + Burning Light proc chance (2nd dmg boost) (passive)
Wardens get 4 ultimate + 12% mag & stam regen + 3% dmg done each (passives) + 28m range (on cutting dive) or AoE + major fracture (dmg buff) (on sub assault)

So, with the skill's passives remain untouched but instead of block mitigation it offers a simple (single target) dmg component to it, it would be somewhat in line with other class spams passive wise.
Numbers are of course always up to debate. But given the fact that e.g. wardens have similar regen passives for slotting and NBs even for just spending skill points, I don't think it would be out of line.

If a spam is felt as "too much", it could also become a semi-spam like Curse or Subterranean Assault are.

Downsides are the "not every class needs everything"-restriction and the loss of 36% block mitigation, which just get's buffed so I doubt they will make any changes to BA at all. But these are just thoughts anyway.

Thraben

Lorewise (as I have already made plenty of remarks mechanic- wise), (or in all previous ES games)

the class defining "speed" is just the consequence of using the "bound weapons/ bound armor" spell, making a StamSorc less burdened than other Stamina classes. Also, they can freely change their weapons during a fight due to the bound weapons spell. Pulling with a bow, then changing to a Greataxe, than turtling up with a shield? All possible with conjured weapons.

I´d wish the game would reflect it more. Instead of allowing conjured weapon skills on our Overload bar, they decided to allow OL attacks on our weapons bar. A wasted chance to restore our class identity.

RaptorRodeoGod

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

I know how you feel. I remember at launch the Bound Armor skill converted all your armor in a light blue set of medium Daedric and it irked me to no end that I never saw my armor.

Some of us (me) liked that an actual set of armor appeared after casting bound armor. I was and am still disappointed that was taken away. I would have rather had the visual effect have been toggle-able.

Other than that I agree with most of the points in this thread. Spammable/semi-spammable would be nice. I wouldn't really care which skill became one; everything as far as spammables have been mentioned sound really interesting.

A physical damage ultimate would be fantastic considering the Sorcerer is the only class without one, and the Dragonknights have two. An AOE air atronach would be amazing, and a wind shooting overload would be really interesting as well. I would definitely swap between the two if both were options.

The mobility points are accurate, it would be nice for a way to distinguish ourselves as the fastest class again. Be it a speed buff, or a way to take away someone elses speed, I don't care.

Speaking of mobility, since I doubt Bolt Escape would be losing its cost increase any time soon, it would be nice if the range were increased, or additional effects added to it. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the ONLY skill in the ENTIRE game that has a cost increase? How is that fair?

Though bound armor is a class skill, it's essentially dead weight on all DPS builds and adds nothing to the actual feel of a Sorcerer. It's unfortunate that the passives for slotting it are so useful, I'd rather have more interesting skills to use.

*Edited for spelling.

RaptorRodeoGod

Thraben wrote: »

Lorewise (as I have already made plenty of remarks mechanic- wise), (or in all previous ES games)

the class defining "speed" is just the consequence of using the "bound weapons/ bound armor" spell, making a StamSorc less burdened than other Stamina classes. Also, they can freely change their weapons during a fight due to the bound weapons spell. Pulling with a bow, then changing to a Greataxe, than turtling up with a shield? All possible with conjured weapons.

I´d wish the game would reflect it more. Instead of allowing conjured weapon skills on our Overload bar, they decided to allow OL attacks on our weapons bar. A wasted chance to restore our class identity.

I agree with the bolded statement 1000%

Chilly-McFreeze

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Speaking of mobility, since I doubt Bolt Escape would be losing its cost increase any time soon, it would be nice if the range were increased, or additional effects added to it. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the ONLY skill in the ENTIRE game that has a cost increase? How is that fair?

Though bound armor is a class skill, it's essentially dead weight on all DPS builds and adds nothing to the actual feel of a Sorcerer. It's unfortunate that the passives for slotting it are so useful, I'd rather have more interesting skills to use.

*Edited for spelling.

Dodge Roll has increasing costs, if you want to count that as a skill rather than an ability. But streak doesn't evade anything with a range more than 15m so it's a rather poor comparison. I wasn't around back then but the legend says that sorcerers streaked non-stop from alessia to drake back in the days, which was the reason for the fatigue.

I'm still torn on the range increase on streak, which would make it even harder to use as opening for an offensive window on melee stam sorcs. I already have to be a good way across from someone to streak through them, turn around and inflict any skill. With the larger range we would defnitely run back to them. Cage isn't a good stun anymore, dizzying is unreliable and reverb forces you into snb. Above all, streak needs a longer stun as well.

However, given the fatigue costs stay, I think it would be a good idea to increase the range when the costs rise. So the first streak pushes you 15m (if that's the actual range, idk), the second streak (which costs 50% more) also get's you farther away. Don't know if that sounds appealing but it would be a solution.

But I strongyl agree on your last paragraph.

Bevik

Think to some passive they need to add a magicka/stamina return same as NBs got. I really love my StamSorc, she is my fav. Survivability is top but still need some sustain.

John_Falstaff

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

...StamDKs getting emerald fire with their Stamina morphs and in many other cases the change is more about how the skill functions and carries little visble change.

Sorry, my eye snatched that sentence from the post. What is emerald fire, again?

kylewwefan

I don’t get it? Hurricane is a pretty massive class defining ability. Paired with Crit surge and passive Implosion execute Damage that starts at %20 ; StamSorc shreds stuff and gets healed while being super tanky and ping ponging around uncontrollably fast.

What more defining class ability’s need be added? This doesn’t make sense to me. Sorry.