Cast time on cloak

Jaxaxo

Since main defence of sorcerer class get cast time i would expect the same thing changed with shadowy disguise from nigthblade. Fighting vs cloak without specific counters (pots, mark which was chenged to 5 sec), can be extremely painfull and hard. Like responded in forum thread

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.
[...]
The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic.

Like stated above, same thing applies to ability to cloak in pvp. Nightblades are able to get high survivability with minimal sacrifice of dps. Cast time on cloak would give enemies strategic options to counterplay against nightblades, instead of throwing cc keep enemy off cc immunty to bash/stop nb from casting cloak and being able to use it for next seconds. And same strategic options would be expected from nightblade, keep tracking cc immunity to be able to cloak without problem, keep distance to prevent bashing and then cloak. This would add some counterplay and prevent problem stated with ZOS response

mistrija999

I agree, should add counter to people who dont know how to play but just spam cloak and come back full hp and stuff like that.. also people getting carried by dodge, cloak spam which dont have skill would be affected, which would be perfect change

Gilvoth

threads made to hurt and nerf other classes out of retaliation and spite and not interested in actual class balance.

Jaxaxo

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

threads made to hurt and nerf other classes out of retaliation and spite and not interested in actual class balance.

Oh, trust me. Looking at current situation it's to make balance xd

AhPook_Is_Here

Lol just play a NB instead, if NB gets nerfed down the road play something else. If enough people play NBs then it won't get nerfed, just just hop on the NB bus and enjoy the ride.

No way your nerf is going to make this patch cycle so use the time before the patch hits to get your NB in shape.

DDuke

And what... remove all medium armor/non-2H builds from the game? I'll just copy paste what I wrote on another thread that proposed halting magicka regen & stacking cost modifier on Cloak:

Such a backwards approach... you would punish players for using cloak skillfully (i.e. not getting revealed and not running out of magicka, which happens often to people who use it when they shouldn't) and it'd be a huge buff to zergs chasing solo players who often have to cloak multiple times in a row to drop combat in such scenarios.


Why not instead reward players who do manage to reveal a NB (with damage)? Add a 4s~ cooldown to casting cloak again, similar to how interrupting cast times/channels works. There, skillful play is rewarded and mistakes are punished - rather than the other way around.


Besides, making cloaking unsustainable as a form of defense would kill off the remaining few medium stamblades and force the rest of the NB population to play heavy armor like everyone else. Especially builds that do not run 2H and need the cloak to substitute a burst heal (i.e. when Vigor does not outheal DoTs or you need to cloak something that can't be dodged).


To illustrate this, imagine a scenario where you get Fossilized & DoT'd up by a mDK, maybe some other player standing around somewhere as well. You need to CC break & Vigor+Dodge Roll, you're around 50% health and those DoTs are dealing more damage than your Vigor heals for. You cloak.. heal for 4,5k'ish... DoTs are still running, you try to cloak again but you can't because there's a stacking cost modifier and your 800 magicka regen was stopped during the cloak. Skoria lands (maybe a Leap too) -> dead.
^
That's not really the kind of gameplay I want to see in this game.

With 1s cast time what's going to happen? You get DBOS'd, you're at 30-40% health with DoTs ticking on you & start casting cloak... oh, dead.

You jump down from a keep and suddenly a zerg appears from behind the corner. Oh ***, you start casting cloak... dead.


It is not a feasible "solution" to a "problem" that doesn't even exist for half the builds out there.

Steel Tornado slotted? Cloak builds just became free AP.
Det pots? Det poisons? Yummy, free AP.
Curse/POTL/Purifying Light? Also very strong counters, especially vs stamblades who can't spam cloak in the first place.


...and now there's a viable Impulse as well (not the 6m PBAoE morph, the ranged one that you can aim) to counter both cloak/dodge roll.


If anything, they should promote skillful gameplay by adding a 4s cooldown on cloak if you get revealed by damage. That would punish people who just mindlessly spam the skill but would leave room for people to use it strategically (or to avoid certain death in many scenarios).

CrazYDunm3r

Believe it or not... Jax plays a NB. Surprising isn't it? A NB with logic

brandonv516

I'm not looking forward to it but a nerf is likely coming to cloak. I don't think this is the direction they will go.

I think they are trying to make the transition easier for NBs whenever it does happen.

Two recent changes might be indicators:
-Giant icon pops up when someone tries to reveal a NB
-Piercing Mark severely nerfed

MacCait

Perhaps make some constructive suggestions instead of just crying NERF to other classes.

Have you ever even played a Nightblade? Cloak is not a shield and does not mitigate damage. The PvP morph that mitigated some damge was already removed. There are TONS of ways to pull people out of cloak.

This is just a pointless retaliation thread that doesnt addd to the discussion of the current suggested changes.

BTW I am against shield cast nerf. But I'm also against pointless NERF threads

NordSwordnBoard

We need to demonstrate when this goes live that the cast time for shields is too much on top of everything else. Asking them to apply game flow changing nerfs to other classes may make them think it was successful, and they will continue with the nerf approach.

mistrija999

Make it cost increase 50% with each cast like streak or smth like that.. Jaxaxo only plays NB, and has more time on it that u got on all your chars. So pls stop talking bs..Cloak really needs nerf

Koolio

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Since main defence of sorcerer class get cast time i would expect the same thing changed with shadowy disguise from nigthblade. Fighting vs cloak without specific counters (pots, mark which was chenged to 5 sec), can be extremely painfull and hard. Like responded in forum thread

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.
[...]
The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic.

Like stated above, same thing applies to ability to cloak in pvp. Nightblades are able to get high survivability with minimal sacrifice of dps. Cast time on cloak would give enemies strategic options to counterplay against nightblades, instead of throwing cc keep enemy off cc immunty to bash/stop nb from casting cloak and being able to use it for next seconds. And same strategic options would be expected from nightblade, keep tracking cc immunity to be able to cloak without problem, keep distance to prevent bashing and then cloak. This would add some counterplay and prevent problem stated with ZOS response

I would say the difference is that shields ALWAYS gave you the shield.

I’ll take cost increase for every cast if it works for the full duration every time.

Shield don’t always last full duration but they are always applied

Jaxaxo

MacCait wrote: »

Perhaps make some constructive suggestions instead of just crying NERF to other classes.

Have you ever even played a Nightblade? Cloak is not a shield and does not mitigate damage. The PvP morph that mitigated some damge was already removed. There are TONS of ways to pull people out of cloak.

This is just a pointless retaliation thread that doesnt addd to the discussion of the current suggested changes.

BTW I am against shield cast nerf. But I'm also against pointless NERF threads

Ye, i played nb a bit. And funny thing, cloak is not a shield, but it mitigates much more dmg than shield. Just go once into cyrodill without it and check, tell me later if u feel more dmg on u

Jaxaxo

Koolio wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Since main defence of sorcerer class get cast time i would expect the same thing changed with shadowy disguise from nigthblade. Fighting vs cloak without specific counters (pots, mark which was chenged to 5 sec), can be extremely painfull and hard. Like responded in forum thread

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.
[...]
The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic.

Like stated above, same thing applies to ability to cloak in pvp. Nightblades are able to get high survivability with minimal sacrifice of dps. Cast time on cloak would give enemies strategic options to counterplay against nightblades, instead of throwing cc keep enemy off cc immunty to bash/stop nb from casting cloak and being able to use it for next seconds. And same strategic options would be expected from nightblade, keep tracking cc immunity to be able to cloak without problem, keep distance to prevent bashing and then cloak. This would add some counterplay and prevent problem stated with ZOS response

I would say the difference is that shields ALWAYS gave you the shield.

I’ll take cost increase for every cast if it works for the full duration every time.

Shield don’t always last full duration but they are always applied

but shield dont always help u vs dmg, especially now when there is more oblivion dmg sources

MacCait

Jaxaxo wrote: »

MacCait wrote: »

Perhaps make some constructive suggestions instead of just crying NERF to other classes.

Have you ever even played a Nightblade? Cloak is not a shield and does not mitigate damage. The PvP morph that mitigated some damge was already removed. There are TONS of ways to pull people out of cloak.

This is just a pointless retaliation thread that doesnt addd to the discussion of the current suggested changes.

BTW I am against shield cast nerf. But I'm also against pointless NERF threads

Ye, i played nb a bit. And funny thing, cloak is not a shield, but it mitigates much more dmg than shield. Just go once into cyrodill without it and check, tell me later if u feel more dmg on u

I've been a Nightblade since release and have many nightblades of different types.I've also played a lot of PvP and have played all classes. Cloak does not mitigate damage. If someone who knows how to play wants to pull me out of cloak they will put down aoe's and fire damage all around and use flare and any skill or pot to pull me from cloak. Cloak does not mitigate any of that at all. period.

Instead of going on about cloak, perhaps add to the conversation on alternative ideas to avoid the cast times to shields. Really can't see what you hope to achieve in this thread. The Devs aren't going to listen to petty moans

Koolio

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Since main defence of sorcerer class get cast time i would expect the same thing changed with shadowy disguise from nigthblade. Fighting vs cloak without specific counters (pots, mark which was chenged to 5 sec), can be extremely painfull and hard. Like responded in forum thread

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.
[...]
The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic.

Like stated above, same thing applies to ability to cloak in pvp. Nightblades are able to get high survivability with minimal sacrifice of dps. Cast time on cloak would give enemies strategic options to counterplay against nightblades, instead of throwing cc keep enemy off cc immunty to bash/stop nb from casting cloak and being able to use it for next seconds. And same strategic options would be expected from nightblade, keep tracking cc immunity to be able to cloak without problem, keep distance to prevent bashing and then cloak. This would add some counterplay and prevent problem stated with ZOS response

I would say the difference is that shields ALWAYS gave you the shield.

I’ll take cost increase for every cast if it works for the full duration every time.

Shield don’t always last full duration but they are always applied

but shield dont always help u vs dmg, especially now when there is more oblivion dmg sources

Neither does cloak.

Mark target
Detect pots

2 terrible skills made for it.

Emma_Overload

Nerf 'em all!

StShoot

MacCait wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

MacCait wrote: »

Perhaps make some constructive suggestions instead of just crying NERF to other classes.

Have you ever even played a Nightblade? Cloak is not a shield and does not mitigate damage. The PvP morph that mitigated some damge was already removed. There are TONS of ways to pull people out of cloak.

This is just a pointless retaliation thread that doesnt addd to the discussion of the current suggested changes.

BTW I am against shield cast nerf. But I'm also against pointless NERF threads

Ye, i played nb a bit. And funny thing, cloak is not a shield, but it mitigates much more dmg than shield. Just go once into cyrodill without it and check, tell me later if u feel more dmg on u

I've been a Nightblade since release and have many nightblades of different types.I've also played a lot of PvP and have played all classes. Cloak does not mitigate damage. If someone who knows how to play wants to pull me out of cloak they will put down aoe's and fire damage all around and use flare and any skill or pot to pull me from cloak. Cloak does not mitigate any of that at all. period.

Instead of going on about cloak, perhaps add to the conversation on alternative ideas to avoid the cast times to shields. Really can't see what you hope to achieve in this thread. The Devs aren't going to listen to petty moans

Yeah right it only mitigates Dots, projectiles and abilitys with casttime, so no dmg mitigation at all. i guess you dont using it in pvp than ? since it only burns your magica xD.

Arkangeloski

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Since main defence of sorcerer class get cast time i would expect the same thing changed with shadowy disguise from nigthblade. Fighting vs cloak without specific counters (pots, mark which was chenged to 5 sec), can be extremely painfull and hard. Like responded in forum thread

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.
[...]
The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic.

Like stated above, same thing applies to ability to cloak in pvp. Nightblades are able to get high survivability with minimal sacrifice of dps. Cast time on cloak would give enemies strategic options to counterplay against nightblades, instead of throwing cc keep enemy off cc immunty to bash/stop nb from casting cloak and being able to use it for next seconds. And same strategic options would be expected from nightblade, keep tracking cc immunity to be able to cloak without problem, keep distance to prevent bashing and then cloak. This would add some counterplay and prevent problem stated with ZOS response

If you'd tell me hey just pop a pot or use radiant magelight and that would bring down your shields I'd say ok go for it but cloak already has hard counters on mages guild skill line, nb skill line , alliance war skill line, pots , curse, potl , burning light , steel tornado, sap essence , stamsorck hurricane , overwhelming surge and caltrops... Should I continue? Now give me an elaborate list of hard counters to shields just like I did... Other than that atrocious nerf to shields there is barely any counters other than brute Force lol. I don't agree with the way they were nerfed but they definitely needed to be looked at, it is funny how ppl come here requesting revenge nerfs lol, instead of asking for more nerfs why don't you join the sorcerer feedback thread and defend your class and do something constructive instead?

waitwhat

Perhaps rather than a cast time, just add a cost increase for repeat casts within a certain time period, similar to streak and roll-dodge.

Another possibility, since this is being done in relation to the shield changes, would be to eliminate shield-stacking by having one shield overwrite, rather than append itself to, any extant damage shield. Not saying that's the best idea, and we'll want to keep this thread on-topic RE: Cloak, but it's worth adding to the general conversation about Hardened Ward.

dagonbeer

We need a cast time on terrible balance patches animation cancelled into an infinite loading screen.

Neloth

MacCait wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

MacCait wrote: »

Perhaps make some constructive suggestions instead of just crying NERF to other classes.

Have you ever even played a Nightblade? Cloak is not a shield and does not mitigate damage. The PvP morph that mitigated some damge was already removed. There are TONS of ways to pull people out of cloak.

This is just a pointless retaliation thread that doesnt addd to the discussion of the current suggested changes.

BTW I am against shield cast nerf. But I'm also against pointless NERF threads

Ye, i played nb a bit. And funny thing, cloak is not a shield, but it mitigates much more dmg than shield. Just go once into cyrodill without it and check, tell me later if u feel more dmg on u

I've been a Nightblade since release and have many nightblades of different types.I've also played a lot of PvP and have played all classes. Cloak does not mitigate damage. If someone who knows how to play wants to pull me out of cloak they will put down aoe's and fire damage all around and use flare and any skill or pot to pull me from cloak. Cloak does not mitigate any of that at all. period.

Instead of going on about cloak, perhaps add to the conversation on alternative ideas to avoid the cast times to shields. Really can't see what you hope to achieve in this thread. The Devs aren't going to listen to petty moans

I puke from this logic....

"Cloak doesn't mitigate any dmg". Yes, it does. You can't hit what you can't see. It gives passive dodge chance for all protectives. It forces all your heals to crit, so you can get sick healing from you vigor or healing ward, while taking no dmg, if you cloaked successfully.

"Cloak can be easily broken". Only on some builds/classes. Of course if I have a gap closer + spammable aoe or 1 of 2-3 specific skills, I have easier life against NBs. But again, what 1vs1 counterplay is available for me against fear -> shade -> cloak? Let that NB go away and gank me later? It's not serious.

Btw wait, do I need any specific counter against magsorc? Oh, no, I can just count to six and dawnbreak the *** out of them. GG. No need to slot extra skills, no need to change my pot.

You can say "magsorc can shield stack defensively forever". And a weak ago I would have agreed with you, but ha-ha, not on this PTS. Pls understand that sorc is so much less effective compared to NB, and fixing it will be what we call game balance. If ZoS doesn't want to buff sorcs (we tried), then NBs are required to be nerfed, and OP suggested a good way to do it.

Cinbri

I would say zos should be carefull here coz it easy to break Cloak but saying that Cloak not mitigating damage...

^^Guess how much damage Cloak mitigated from 4 players even when it was broken by aoe instantly.

Mystrius_Archaion

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

threads made to hurt and nerf other classes out of retaliation and spite and not interested in actual class balance.

This is true.

Cloak already has its own counter of only working for less than 3 seconds max at a time and not being sustainable too many times in a row, especially when nightblades have lower resources after attacking. Also, you can't sprint in cloak either, so they're slower overall when sprint breaks cloak.

You can also break cloak with any ground AoE that hits them while cloaked, so if you can't deal with cloak you're not trying.
Damage shields were very different, much more powerful.

Mystrius_Archaion

Cinbri wrote: »

I would say zos should be carefull here coz it easy to break Cloak but saying that Cloak not mitigating damage...

^^Guess how much damage Cloak mitigated from 4 players even when it was broken by aoe instantly.

Cloak doesn't mitigate damage when they're not invisible. Your own gif there shows your target nightblade still taking damage both with the health bar moving and the numbers above their head and it looks like they were getting healed which was what really kept them alive.

Maybe pay attention to what you're seeing before claiming something else is going on.

FYI, that "miss miss miss" you see could very well be old Major Evasion from a skill or item set or maybe they "Meridia's Blessed Armor"-ed you.
It doesn't matter anyway as cloak wasn't the issue with your gif. The nightblade there was built/playing well to be able to keep from dying instantly to your 4-man-focus-fire.

Onmari

I know magicka players (and our stam sorc brethren) are disappointed and angry right now with the nerfs looming, but calling for nerfs to other classes isn't the way. Night blades deserve to be in a good place with their game play as do we all. #WeAllPlayHere

zammo

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Since main defence of sorcerer class get cast time i would expect the same thing changed with shadowy disguise from nigthblade. Fighting vs cloak without specific counters (pots, mark which was chenged to 5 sec), can be extremely painfull and hard. Like responded in forum thread

So fight with the provided counters?

Neither cloak nor shields should have a cast time.

StShoot

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I would say zos should be carefull here coz it easy to break Cloak but saying that Cloak not mitigating damage...

^^Guess how much damage Cloak mitigated from 4 players even when it was broken by aoe instantly.

Cloak doesn't mitigate damage when they're not invisible. Your own gif there shows your target nightblade still taking damage both with the health bar moving and the numbers above their head and it looks like they were getting healed which was what really kept them alive.

Maybe pay attention to what you're seeing before claiming something else is going on.

FYI, that "miss miss miss" you see could very well be old Major Evasion from a skill or item set or maybe they "Meridia's Blessed Armor"-ed you.
It doesn't matter anyway as cloak wasn't the issue with your gif. The nightblade there was built/playing well to be able to keep from dying instantly to your 4-man-focus-fire.

Actual Cloak does mitigate gamage even if its broken frequently... by spaming it you get rid of projectiles and some other abilitys... even if it is broken every sec

Mystrius_Archaion

StShoot wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I would say zos should be carefull here coz it easy to break Cloak but saying that Cloak not mitigating damage...

^^Guess how much damage Cloak mitigated from 4 players even when it was broken by aoe instantly.

Cloak doesn't mitigate damage when they're not invisible. Your own gif there shows your target nightblade still taking damage both with the health bar moving and the numbers above their head and it looks like they were getting healed which was what really kept them alive.

Maybe pay attention to what you're seeing before claiming something else is going on.

FYI, that "miss miss miss" you see could very well be old Major Evasion from a skill or item set or maybe they "Meridia's Blessed Armor"-ed you.
It doesn't matter anyway as cloak wasn't the issue with your gif. The nightblade there was built/playing well to be able to keep from dying instantly to your 4-man-focus-fire.

Actual Cloak does mitigate gamage even if its broken frequently... by spaming it you get rid of projectiles and some other abilitys... even if it is broken every sec

But it's just slightly delaying the inevitable, not a problem that needs to be fixed.

This thread is a pointless argument for anybody who actually knows how to play the game.

Cinbri

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I would say zos should be carefull here coz it easy to break Cloak but saying that Cloak not mitigating damage...

^^Guess how much damage Cloak mitigated from 4 players even when it was broken by aoe instantly.

Cloak doesn't mitigate damage when they're not invisible. Your own gif there shows your target nightblade still taking damage both with the health bar moving and the numbers above their head and it looks like they were getting healed which was what really kept them alive.

Maybe pay attention to what you're seeing before claiming something else is going on.

FYI, that "miss miss miss" you see could very well be old Major Evasion from a skill or item set or maybe they "Meridia's Blessed Armor"-ed you.
It doesn't matter anyway as cloak wasn't the issue with your gif. The nightblade there was built/playing well to be able to keep from dying instantly to your 4-man-focus-fire.

Denying reality won't help, gif shows pretty obviously how 1 usage of cloak 100% mitigated 6 damage ticks only from 1 enemy even when being instantly broken by jabs aoe and 2nd cloak mitigated 3 of my ticks and all projectile attacks of teammates. Try to say how it not mitigate damage again without those artifice about meridia and that evasion, you either don't know how those 2 works (meridia is debuff and it would miss all my attacks not those that ticks right after cloak and I showed my hp bar to show that there is no meridia debuff on me; nor evasion nor roll-dodge cant "miss" magicka aoe damage, there is "dodged" category for it), or just cant accept that cloak is not as weak as you try to claim.

mistrija999

Most NBs spam cloak to a point where it looks like - pops out of cloak dodg rolls, cloaks again, pops, cloaks , pops, dodges, cloaks, pops, dodges, cloaks, cloaks, pops, cloaks and then it's over. You arent supposed to be able to use it 5-10 times on stamina/magicka in a ROW withouth using all your mag IMO. And if you actually play this game you should be aware of cloak being too OP and abused by low skilled players who get carried by it.