Nerf Shields, Buff Lightning Form, Daedric Mines, Bolt Escape, Encase and Daedric Line passives

IAVITNI

Let me begin by stating the cast time on shields was a step in the right direction, but in the wrong spot. Shields were reduced to 6 seconds to become more reactive instead of the 20 seconds of easy proactive defenses. However, obviously shields were over perfoming in the sense that they were far to forgiving as a reactive defense despite being such a strong proactive defense. The cast time was implemented to address issues that ultimately can be broken down into PvE and PvP.

PvE
Honestly the issue here is that ZoS has outdated content that was not designed to deal with power creep. Instead of updating damage and mechanics of these dungeons, they simply destroy play styles. Newer dungeons are less problematic but tend to lean on 1-shot mechanics to "reinforce" the need for healers because 0 health toons have the most health to heal. #ZoSLogic.

PvP
Shield stacking and the sheer size of shields makes Shields far to forgiving of a defensive mechanic. It allows Shield builds to completely by-pass mitigation without having to make any significant sacrifices besides sustain, which is negated by skills like Harness and the sheer size of shields due to CP, which reduces the amount of recasts needed. Ultimately, the vulnerability windows of these builds is far too small for less experienced players to take advantage of them. This is why so many complain about shields, because most don't understand how to play against them.

That said, there is some logic behind requiring Shields to have a mix of reactive and proactive thought processes. The best heal in the game is arguably Vigor. This heal works both before and after incoming damage. If you look at the state of Magplars on live, their defense is "weak" because it is largely reactive-based as a burst heal in the form of Rushed Ceremony. It works, but requires a lot of effort. Based on comparing Vigor to Rushed Ceremony and both again to Shields we can see the pros and cons of reactive and proactive defenses.

First we’ll compare shields to Rushed Ceremony since, outside of 1 button hero group play, they perform similar functions as a reactive defense. .

• Both essentially provide a burst of effective health after taking large incoming damage.
• Rushed Ceremony pales in comparison due to the lack of proactive defenses in the skill since it cannot over heal, but also due to the weak proactive defenses of the class on live, whereas shields can cover both areas.
• There is the added cost of having to spec into mitigation on the side of magplar to actually survive long enough to heal. This is why mag plars tend to have a more defensive combat style in general and must be relatively more aggressive in order to maintain offensive windows. It is also the reason why their damage is considered to be relatively low in PvP on live.

**This last point will be balanced out in the PTS, however Rushed Ceremony will now surpass Shields in some respects due to it’s ability to crit. I myself have Crit healed for around +18k in light within a single gcd while in combat, though it is important to note that I was actively using every defensive mechanic available to me. If shields cannot crit, they should not be subject to crit.

Next up is Vigor, which is arguably the best designed heal in the game at the moment. It possesses both reactive and proactive potential as casting it prior to an engagement has it behave similar to shields. It punishes players for not actively maintain up time but it also maintains a window of vulnerability from a reactive cast.

• No overhealing
• Can be cast proactively to function similar to shields
• has a more significant window of vulnerability
• Has strong universal support as a reactive defense thanks to roll dodge and block mechanics
• Enables both offensive and defensive gameplay, working similarly to shields but with crit components but less forgiving than Rushed Ceremony

The largest factor is actually Major Defile. Arguments can be made that it should affect shields. Prior to the resistance changes, I would say no due to the fact that if a sorc was caught with shields down it was almost certainly dead. Same cannot be said based on PTS notes. Major Defile should affect shields if Resistance come into play.

Based on the above comparisons, we can see that a reactive approach results in a more defensive play style, but one that is very forgiving. A proactive defence enables a more offensive play style but is more punishing if you fail to maintain a proper rotation. Rushed Ceremony is strictly the latter and Vigor falls in between.

Shields on the other hand somehow comes out on top on both ends of the spectrum. It provides both a good proactive and reactive defence which minimizes the ability of opponents to punish shields users for misplays.

The channel change indicates that ZoS wants shields to be more proactive. This can be done in a way similar to Vigor, where the Shield functions similar to a HoT, where a portion of the shield is granted immediately upon cast and the rest of the shield builds up over time.

Players must be proactive to benefit from the full shield but the skill still has some reactive benefits, but at significantly weaker margins. Most importantly, the window of vulnesrabitliy for Sorcs and other shield users is significantly increased. Playing against shields requires opponents to gauge when shields are weakest or not recasted, not by preventing them from being cast in the first place. Changing Shields to operate like a HoT maintains current playstyle but makes it less forgiving. Alternatively, Shields could work like Rally, where a small shield is constantly generated but a larger shield is granted based on time between recasts. The shield would obvisouly still have a duration.

However, sorcs specifically lack other defensive tools outside of shields, or rather these defensive tools are too weak compared to shields. Gutting shields without providing viable alternatives is lazy balancing and is what is going to kill the class. Vigor is so effective as a mixed proactive/reactive defence because it has mechanics to support it in both situations. Sorcs simply need the same. I will detail the purpose of the classes other defensive skills below and why they fail to perform their intended functions.

Lightning Form
The class Major buff that is meant to increase mobility and deter melee opponents via Major Expedition on cast and melee damage

• The melee deterrent component is not enough on its own,
• The Major Expedition is actually very strong, however the skill lacks utility. Duration seems fair in relation to Bird of Prey, however the class that is defined by mobility should be more mobile
• The Major Expedition is not weak, it is just that snares are too strong/accessible
• IF the class gains a snare removal/immunity (no longer than 1.5-2.5 seconds imo), this would be the skill to do it. Creates healthy decision making on Hurricane (damage vs mobility) and does not make it too accessible for magsorcs. It would also have solid synergy with the Major Expedition.
• The value of this skill has increased significantly due to Resistance and Shield changes. On live, this skills is has almost no value and would require a significant buff. On PTS, skill would only need minor improvements

Daedric Mines
Powerful zoning tool meant to relieve melee pressure or punish melee players for not respecting the zone

• This skill has insane problems-cost/utility ratio is either too large or too small
• 1 morph does not work as intended-meant to prime immediately but Daedric Tomb takes time to form, so there is still a priming time
• Daedric Tomb is too offensive to be a proper zoning tool
• Daedric Mines is too niche-too strong in a 1v1 and as a means to setup a "camp" but too weak if not camped
• Skill is meant to create distance by zoning. Eternal Hunt does a significantly better job than this skill. Mines should be modelled after how Eternal Hunt performs
• Skill simply needs to be more universal and Mines needs to be less overbearing

Bolt Escape
Gap Opener and utility skill. This is arguably a class defining skill

• Increased cost per cast makes this skill too punishing to be used reliably outside of running away
• Prevalence of gap closers renders this skill useless, especially since 1 gap closer outranges 2 casts of Bolt Escape and morphs
• Both morphs of the skill are actually great. Base skill simply needs QoL changes
• SHOULD NOT gain snare removal/immunity
• Physics for this skill is clunky. Momentum is lost, cannot use on stairs and the start and end of the skill are to blocky
• Severely debilitating to use when rooted. Should be able to move in direction player is moving. This would enable offensive repositioning, especially on console.

Encase
Offensive alternative to Mines. This would be a strictly proactive skill whereas mines is a mix of reactive and proactive

• The Major Vitality is nice but the cost is too high to be used for such a short base duration, especially for magsorcs
• One morph is completely useless as the damage is negligible
• Does not have any synergy with the rest of the class kit
• Appears to be geared for tanks, but the cost is too high considering stam sorcs have to spend magicka on Crit Surge, Dark Deal and Bolt Escape as well

Daedric Skill Line
This Class Line needs to be looked at before any changes are made. Passives are the foundation for a class and sorcs are pretty much missing a third of that foundation.

• These passives NEED to benefit all sorcs, not just pet sorcs.
• Pets should not need to be double barred. With the removal of the Overload third bar, pet sorcs will have no space
• Pets are useless in PvP and annoying in PvE
• Re-summoning Pets is too hard/punishing or too difficult to counter for some specs/lag
• In duels, pets are too strong. They should be more prone to CC to create healthier counterplay. This would help with the previous point
• Matriarch AI is poor. A defensive pet should have a smaller leash and not be on the other side of a keep
• Bound Armor is a nice attempt but its active is pointless. Block does not need to reduce more damage outside of certain situations. Does not have any synergy with mag sorcs who cannot afford to block in the first place

IF sorcs are going to be pushed away from Shields, they need viable alternatives. ZoS needs to stop with half changes and expecting the community to "discover a new way" despite the fact that no new tools are provided. For something like shields, all the other ways have been tested. Taking away the only viable approach is simply a show of incompetence.

The feedback is primarily PvP focused due to 2 reasons:
1. The proposed change of having Shields function similar to HoTs would require shields to be precast, similar to what a cast time requires
2. Shields in PvE are not over-performing. ZoS is simply too lazy and prideful to admit that content is outdated and mechanics do not actually reinforce the need for a healer, but rather remove them entirely

MashmalloMan

Well said and as a stam sorc main I completely agree with everything you mentioned. If you review the class rep notes from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/431189/class-reps-meeting-notes-august-16/p1. They made a promise about update 20 and they hit most of the marks. If they change dark deal to insta cast and rebalance the skill, they hit the sustain mark for me.They have further plans beyond update 20 that touch on a lot of what you brought up.

Edit: At this point. It's just a matter of time, I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the changes that came in this patch are setups for changes in the future.

Things I need.

Hurricane giving snare removal and immunity like wings for 2 seconds is a great trade off. Risk vs reward.

Would love a spammable, but that is narrow minded, theres a good deal of options currently. I would much rather have something unique like something to replace rearming trap. Imagine a skill that behaves like Relequen where applying it to the same enemy builds dmg + has the minor force buff - provide otpions to us. As far as I'm concerned, I'd like the relequen animation too, make it so that it's only a good dps skill when it hits 10-20seconds on a target, anything before that rearming trap is the better option.

Sustain in pve is still bad, every class received buffs while we received a nerf to dark deal. Make dark exchange instant cast and fine tune the heal/cost/sustain.

Bound armor adding utility for tanks was unnecessary. ZOS missed an opportunity to make this usable by every spec. Instead we now have a high cost, low duration tank buff on a DAMAGE skill. I would much rather see a an active dmg ability, I don't think tanks would care much as they could simply give tanks a useful passive like 12% block mitigation. Imagine "Bound Weapon" like the ES series.

Fix streak/bol. Remove the 50% cost increase, lower it to at least 25%. Keep momentum.

Give us an Air Atronach and if you are going to remove the 3rd bar for overload and change it in to a weavable option akin to a weapon ability atleast change 1 of the morphs to physical DMG, not necessary to have 5 ultimate's for sorcs that ALL deal magic/shock DMG. This also illustrates how little utility tanks/healers get from our ultimate's.

Fix shields, I don't use shields but I don't support the cast time change. There's other more interesting ways for gameplay design.

leepalmer95

IAVITNI wrote: »

Let me begin by stating the cast time on shields was a step in the right direction, but in the wrong spot. Shields were reduced to 6 seconds to become more reactive instead of the 20 seconds of easy proactive defenses. However, obviously shields were over perfoming in the sense that they were far to forgiving as a reactive defense despite being such a strong proactive defense. The cast time was implemented to address issues that ultimately can be broken down into PvE and PvP.

PvE
Honestly the issue here is that ZoS has outdated content that was not designed to deal with power creep. Instead of updating damage and mechanics of these dungeons, they simply destroy play styles. Newer dungeons are less problematic but tend to lean on 1-shot mechanics to "reinforce" the need for healers because 0 health toons have the most health to heal. #ZoSLogic.

PvP
Shield stacking and the sheer size of shields makes Shields far to forgiving of a defensive mechanic. It allows Shield builds to completely by-pass mitigation without having to make any significant sacrifices besides sustain, which is negated by skills like Harness and the sheer size of shields due to CP, which reduces the amount of recasts needed. Ultimately, the vulnerability windows of these builds is far too small for less experienced players to take advantage of them. This is why so many complain about shields, because most don't understand how to play against them.

That said, there is some logic behind requiring Shields to have a mix of reactive and proactive thought processes. The best heal in the game is arguably Vigor. This heal works both before and after incoming damage. If you look at the state of Magplars on live, their defense is "weak" because it is largely reactive-based as a burst heal in the form of Rushed Ceremony. It works, but requires a lot of effort. Based on comparing Vigor to Rushed Ceremony and both again to Shields we can see the pros and cons of reactive and proactive defenses.

First we’ll compare shields to Rushed Ceremony since, outside of 1 button hero group play, they perform similar functions as a reactive defense. .

• Both essentially provide a burst of effective health after taking large incoming damage.
• Rushed Ceremony pales in comparison due to the lack of proactive defenses in the skill since it cannot over heal, but also due to the weak proactive defenses of the class on live, whereas shields can cover both areas.
• There is the added cost of having to spec into mitigation on the side of magplar to actually survive long enough to heal. This is why mag plars tend to have a more defensive combat style in general and must be relatively more aggressive in order to maintain offensive windows. It is also the reason why their damage is considered to be relatively low in PvP on live.

**This last point will be balanced out in the PTS, however Rushed Ceremony will now surpass Shields in some respects due to it’s ability to crit. I myself have Crit healed for around +18k in light within a single gcd while in combat, though it is important to note that I was actively using every defensive mechanic available to me. If shields cannot crit, they should not be subject to crit.

Next up is Vigor, which is arguably the best designed heal in the game at the moment. It possesses both reactive and proactive potential as casting it prior to an engagement has it behave similar to shields. It punishes players for not actively maintain up time but it also maintains a window of vulnerability from a reactive cast.

• No overhealing
• Can be cast proactively to function similar to shields
• has a more significant window of vulnerability
• Has strong universal support as a reactive defense thanks to roll dodge and block mechanics
• Enables both offensive and defensive gameplay, working similarly to shields but with crit components but less forgiving than Rushed Ceremony

The largest factor is actually Major Defile. Arguments can be made that it should affect shields. Prior to the resistance changes, I would say no due to the fact that if a sorc was caught with shields down it was almost certainly dead. Same cannot be said based on PTS notes. Major Defile should affect shields if Resistance come into play.

Based on the above comparisons, we can see that a reactive approach results in a more defensive play style, but one that is very forgiving. A proactive defence enables a more offensive play style but is more punishing if you fail to maintain a proper rotation. Rushed Ceremony is strictly the latter and Vigor falls in between.

Shields on the other hand somehow comes out on top on both ends of the spectrum. It provides both a good proactive and reactive defence which minimizes the ability of opponents to punish shields users for misplays.

The channel change indicates that ZoS wants shields to be more proactive. This can be done in a way similar to Vigor, where the Shield functions similar to a HoT, where a portion of the shield is granted immediately upon cast and the rest of the shield builds up over time.

Players must be proactive to benefit from the full shield but the skill still has some reactive benefits, but at significantly weaker margins. Most importantly, the window of vulnesrabitliy for Sorcs and other shield users is significantly increased. Playing against shields requires opponents to gauge when shields are weakest or not recasted, not by preventing them from being cast in the first place. Changing Shields to operate like a HoT maintains current playstyle but makes it less forgiving. Alternatively, Shields could work like Rally, where a small shield is constantly generated but a larger shield is granted based on time between recasts. The shield would obvisouly still have a duration.

However, sorcs specifically lack other defensive tools outside of shields, or rather these defensive tools are too weak compared to shields. Gutting shields without providing viable alternatives is lazy balancing and is what is going to kill the class. Vigor is so effective as a mixed proactive/reactive defence because it has mechanics to support it in both situations. Sorcs simply need the same. I will detail the purpose of the classes other defensive skills below and why they fail to perform their intended functions.

Lightning Form
The class Major buff that is meant to increase mobility and deter melee opponents via Major Expedition on cast and melee damage

• The melee deterrent component is not enough on its own,
• The Major Expedition is actually very strong, however the skill lacks utility. Duration seems fair in relation to Bird of Prey, however the class that is defined by mobility should be more mobile
• The Major Expedition is not weak, it is just that snares are too strong/accessible
• IF the class gains a snare removal/immunity (no longer than 1.5-2.5 seconds imo), this would be the skill to do it. Creates healthy decision making on Hurricane (damage vs mobility) and does not make it too accessible for magsorcs. It would also have solid synergy with the Major Expedition.
• The value of this skill has increased significantly due to Resistance and Shield changes. On live, this skills is has almost no value and would require a significant buff. On PTS, skill would only need minor improvements

Daedric Mines
Powerful zoning tool meant to relieve melee pressure or punish melee players for not respecting the zone

• This skill has insane problems-cost/utility ratio is either too large or too small
• 1 morph does not work as intended-meant to prime immediately but Daedric Tomb takes time to form, so there is still a priming time
• Daedric Tomb is too offensive to be a proper zoning tool
• Daedric Mines is too niche-too strong in a 1v1 and as a means to setup a "camp" but too weak if not camped
• Skill is meant to create distance by zoning. Eternal Hunt does a significantly better job than this skill. Mines should be modelled after how Eternal Hunt performs
• Skill simply needs to be more universal and Mines needs to be less overbearing

Bolt Escape
Gap Opener and utility skill. This is arguably a class defining skill

• Increased cost per cast makes this skill too punishing to be used reliably outside of running away
• Prevalence of gap closers renders this skill useless, especially since 1 gap closer outranges 2 casts of Bolt Escape and morphs
• Both morphs of the skill are actually great. Base skill simply needs QoL changes
• SHOULD NOT gain snare removal/immunity
• Physics for this skill is clunky. Momentum is lost, cannot use on stairs and the start and end of the skill are to blocky
• Severely debilitating to use when rooted. Should be able to move in direction player is moving. This would enable offensive repositioning, especially on console.

Encase
Offensive alternative to Mines. This would be a strictly proactive skill whereas mines is a mix of reactive and proactive

• The Major Vitality is nice but the cost is too high to be used for such a short base duration, especially for magsorcs
• One morph is completely useless as the damage is negligible
• Does not have any synergy with the rest of the class kit
• Appears to be geared for tanks, but the cost is too high considering stam sorcs have to spend magicka on Crit Surge, Dark Deal and Bolt Escape as well

Daedric Skill Line
This Class Line needs to be looked at before any changes are made. Passives are the foundation for a class and sorcs are pretty much missing a third of that foundation.

• These passives NEED to benefit all sorcs, not just pet sorcs.
• Pets should not need to be double barred. With the removal of the Overload third bar, pet sorcs will have no space
• Pets are useless in PvP and annoying in PvE
• Re-summoning Pets is too hard/punishing or too difficult to counter for some specs/lag
• In duels, pets are too strong. They should be more prone to CC to create healthier counterplay. This would help with the previous point
• Matriarch AI is poor. A defensive pet should have a smaller leash and not be on the other side of a keep
• Bound Armor is a nice attempt but its active is pointless. Block does not need to reduce more damage outside of certain situations. Does not have any synergy with mag sorcs who cannot afford to block in the first place

IF sorcs are going to be pushed away from Shields, they need viable alternatives. ZoS needs to stop with half changes and expecting the community to "discover a new way" despite the fact that no new tools are provided. For something like shields, all the other ways have been tested. Taking away the only viable approach is simply a show of incompetence.

The feedback is primarily PvP focused due to 2 reasons:
1. The proposed change of having Shields function similar to HoTs would require shields to be precast, similar to what a cast time requires
2. Shields in PvE are not over-performing. ZoS is simply too lazy and prideful to admit that content is outdated and mechanics do not actually reinforce the need for a healer, but rather remove them entirely

Don't know how often you play mag sorc in pvp but shields are quite weak in open world. I played sorc for a long time among other classes and this patch i've completely decided to go full stamina (wolfhunter) because mag sorcs are just weak. They can't do anything vs heavy builds and shields are weak. All it takes 2 some semi good players and you are forced on the defensive 90% of the time.

IAVITNI

leepalmer95 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Let me begin by stating the cast time on shields was a step in the right direction, but in the wrong spot. Shields were reduced to 6 seconds to become more reactive instead of the 20 seconds of easy proactive defenses. However, obviously shields were over perfoming in the sense that they were far to forgiving as a reactive defense despite being such a strong proactive defense. The cast time was implemented to address issues that ultimately can be broken down into PvE and PvP.

PvE
Honestly the issue here is that ZoS has outdated content that was not designed to deal with power creep. Instead of updating damage and mechanics of these dungeons, they simply destroy play styles. Newer dungeons are less problematic but tend to lean on 1-shot mechanics to "reinforce" the need for healers because 0 health toons have the most health to heal. #ZoSLogic.

PvP
Shield stacking and the sheer size of shields makes Shields far to forgiving of a defensive mechanic. It allows Shield builds to completely by-pass mitigation without having to make any significant sacrifices besides sustain, which is negated by skills like Harness and the sheer size of shields due to CP, which reduces the amount of recasts needed. Ultimately, the vulnerability windows of these builds is far too small for less experienced players to take advantage of them. This is why so many complain about shields, because most don't understand how to play against them.

That said, there is some logic behind requiring Shields to have a mix of reactive and proactive thought processes. The best heal in the game is arguably Vigor. This heal works both before and after incoming damage. If you look at the state of Magplars on live, their defense is "weak" because it is largely reactive-based as a burst heal in the form of Rushed Ceremony. It works, but requires a lot of effort. Based on comparing Vigor to Rushed Ceremony and both again to Shields we can see the pros and cons of reactive and proactive defenses.

First we’ll compare shields to Rushed Ceremony since, outside of 1 button hero group play, they perform similar functions as a reactive defense. .

• Both essentially provide a burst of effective health after taking large incoming damage.
• Rushed Ceremony pales in comparison due to the lack of proactive defenses in the skill since it cannot over heal, but also due to the weak proactive defenses of the class on live, whereas shields can cover both areas.
• There is the added cost of having to spec into mitigation on the side of magplar to actually survive long enough to heal. This is why mag plars tend to have a more defensive combat style in general and must be relatively more aggressive in order to maintain offensive windows. It is also the reason why their damage is considered to be relatively low in PvP on live.

**This last point will be balanced out in the PTS, however Rushed Ceremony will now surpass Shields in some respects due to it’s ability to crit. I myself have Crit healed for around +18k in light within a single gcd while in combat, though it is important to note that I was actively using every defensive mechanic available to me. If shields cannot crit, they should not be subject to crit.

Next up is Vigor, which is arguably the best designed heal in the game at the moment. It possesses both reactive and proactive potential as casting it prior to an engagement has it behave similar to shields. It punishes players for not actively maintain up time but it also maintains a window of vulnerability from a reactive cast.

• No overhealing
• Can be cast proactively to function similar to shields
• has a more significant window of vulnerability
• Has strong universal support as a reactive defense thanks to roll dodge and block mechanics
• Enables both offensive and defensive gameplay, working similarly to shields but with crit components but less forgiving than Rushed Ceremony

The largest factor is actually Major Defile. Arguments can be made that it should affect shields. Prior to the resistance changes, I would say no due to the fact that if a sorc was caught with shields down it was almost certainly dead. Same cannot be said based on PTS notes. Major Defile should affect shields if Resistance come into play.

Based on the above comparisons, we can see that a reactive approach results in a more defensive play style, but one that is very forgiving. A proactive defence enables a more offensive play style but is more punishing if you fail to maintain a proper rotation. Rushed Ceremony is strictly the latter and Vigor falls in between.

Shields on the other hand somehow comes out on top on both ends of the spectrum. It provides both a good proactive and reactive defence which minimizes the ability of opponents to punish shields users for misplays.

The channel change indicates that ZoS wants shields to be more proactive. This can be done in a way similar to Vigor, where the Shield functions similar to a HoT, where a portion of the shield is granted immediately upon cast and the rest of the shield builds up over time.

Players must be proactive to benefit from the full shield but the skill still has some reactive benefits, but at significantly weaker margins. Most importantly, the window of vulnesrabitliy for Sorcs and other shield users is significantly increased. Playing against shields requires opponents to gauge when shields are weakest or not recasted, not by preventing them from being cast in the first place. Changing Shields to operate like a HoT maintains current playstyle but makes it less forgiving. Alternatively, Shields could work like Rally, where a small shield is constantly generated but a larger shield is granted based on time between recasts. The shield would obvisouly still have a duration.

However, sorcs specifically lack other defensive tools outside of shields, or rather these defensive tools are too weak compared to shields. Gutting shields without providing viable alternatives is lazy balancing and is what is going to kill the class. Vigor is so effective as a mixed proactive/reactive defence because it has mechanics to support it in both situations. Sorcs simply need the same. I will detail the purpose of the classes other defensive skills below and why they fail to perform their intended functions.

Lightning Form
The class Major buff that is meant to increase mobility and deter melee opponents via Major Expedition on cast and melee damage

• The melee deterrent component is not enough on its own,
• The Major Expedition is actually very strong, however the skill lacks utility. Duration seems fair in relation to Bird of Prey, however the class that is defined by mobility should be more mobile
• The Major Expedition is not weak, it is just that snares are too strong/accessible
• IF the class gains a snare removal/immunity (no longer than 1.5-2.5 seconds imo), this would be the skill to do it. Creates healthy decision making on Hurricane (damage vs mobility) and does not make it too accessible for magsorcs. It would also have solid synergy with the Major Expedition.
• The value of this skill has increased significantly due to Resistance and Shield changes. On live, this skills is has almost no value and would require a significant buff. On PTS, skill would only need minor improvements

Daedric Mines
Powerful zoning tool meant to relieve melee pressure or punish melee players for not respecting the zone

• This skill has insane problems-cost/utility ratio is either too large or too small
• 1 morph does not work as intended-meant to prime immediately but Daedric Tomb takes time to form, so there is still a priming time
• Daedric Tomb is too offensive to be a proper zoning tool
• Daedric Mines is too niche-too strong in a 1v1 and as a means to setup a "camp" but too weak if not camped
• Skill is meant to create distance by zoning. Eternal Hunt does a significantly better job than this skill. Mines should be modelled after how Eternal Hunt performs
• Skill simply needs to be more universal and Mines needs to be less overbearing

Bolt Escape
Gap Opener and utility skill. This is arguably a class defining skill

• Increased cost per cast makes this skill too punishing to be used reliably outside of running away
• Prevalence of gap closers renders this skill useless, especially since 1 gap closer outranges 2 casts of Bolt Escape and morphs
• Both morphs of the skill are actually great. Base skill simply needs QoL changes
• SHOULD NOT gain snare removal/immunity
• Physics for this skill is clunky. Momentum is lost, cannot use on stairs and the start and end of the skill are to blocky
• Severely debilitating to use when rooted. Should be able to move in direction player is moving. This would enable offensive repositioning, especially on console.

Encase
Offensive alternative to Mines. This would be a strictly proactive skill whereas mines is a mix of reactive and proactive

• The Major Vitality is nice but the cost is too high to be used for such a short base duration, especially for magsorcs
• One morph is completely useless as the damage is negligible
• Does not have any synergy with the rest of the class kit
• Appears to be geared for tanks, but the cost is too high considering stam sorcs have to spend magicka on Crit Surge, Dark Deal and Bolt Escape as well

Daedric Skill Line
This Class Line needs to be looked at before any changes are made. Passives are the foundation for a class and sorcs are pretty much missing a third of that foundation.

• These passives NEED to benefit all sorcs, not just pet sorcs.
• Pets should not need to be double barred. With the removal of the Overload third bar, pet sorcs will have no space
• Pets are useless in PvP and annoying in PvE
• Re-summoning Pets is too hard/punishing or too difficult to counter for some specs/lag
• In duels, pets are too strong. They should be more prone to CC to create healthier counterplay. This would help with the previous point
• Matriarch AI is poor. A defensive pet should have a smaller leash and not be on the other side of a keep
• Bound Armor is a nice attempt but its active is pointless. Block does not need to reduce more damage outside of certain situations. Does not have any synergy with mag sorcs who cannot afford to block in the first place

IF sorcs are going to be pushed away from Shields, they need viable alternatives. ZoS needs to stop with half changes and expecting the community to "discover a new way" despite the fact that no new tools are provided. For something like shields, all the other ways have been tested. Taking away the only viable approach is simply a show of incompetence.

The feedback is primarily PvP focused due to 2 reasons:
1. The proposed change of having Shields function similar to HoTs would require shields to be precast, similar to what a cast time requires
2. Shields in PvE are not over-performing. ZoS is simply too lazy and prideful to admit that content is outdated and mechanics do not actually reinforce the need for a healer, but rather remove them entirely

Don't know how often you play mag sorc in pvp but shields are quite weak in open world. I played sorc for a long time among other classes and this patch i've completely decided to go full stamina (wolfhunter) because mag sorcs are just weak. They can't do anything vs heavy builds and shields are weak. All it takes 2 some semi good players and you are forced on the defensive 90% of the time.

I primarily play open world solo, and prior to the light attack buffs I spent most of my time on my Dual Wield mag sorc. I play every other class and while I agree that shields are the weakest defence open world, they are also the second most forgiving.

Comparing Vigor to Shields, casting shields after taking a beating does a lot more than Vigor. Now there is a trade off that you will remain in execute phase for significantly longer on most shield based classes, but it is easy to work around that.

The effectiveness isn't really the issue, its how forgiving the mechanic is, especially in the hands of newer players. Shields are only harder to use than Cloak, but besides that I'd say they lack basic understanding of mechanics to be semi competent with them. Players that should have died because they messed up a rotation are able to survive with a single click.

That said, I do not think a nerf to shields was necessary, but it is warranted. Better changes would be to rescale magicka, nerf harness and prevent all de/buffs from affecting shields incoming damage. I.E. Minor Maim is a big offender as to why shield stackers are currently so strong. Couple that with Minor Protection on classes such as magden or Sorcs who back bar the Psijic ultimate, and you have a mechanic that is easily abused.

In high end play, I don't see shields as a problem, but they over perform on the low end. That sounds like a call for balance imo.

Alpheu5

IAVITNI wrote: »

Lightning Form
The class Major buff that is meant to increase mobility and deter melee opponents via Major Expedition on cast and melee damage

• The melee deterrent component is not enough on its own,
• The Major Expedition is actually very strong, however the skill lacks utility. Duration seems fair in relation to Bird of Prey, however the class that is defined by mobility should be more mobile
• The Major Expedition is not weak, it is just that snares are too strong/accessible
• IF the class gains a snare removal/immunity (no longer than 1.5-2.5 seconds imo), this would be the skill to do it. Creates healthy decision making on Hurricane (damage vs mobility) and does not make it too accessible for magsorcs. It would also have solid synergy with the Major Expedition.
• The value of this skill has increased significantly due to Resistance and Shield changes. On live, this skills is has almost no value and would require a significant buff. On PTS, skill would only need minor improvements

Daedric Mines
Powerful zoning tool meant to relieve melee pressure or punish melee players for not respecting the zone

• This skill has insane problems-cost/utility ratio is either too large or too small
• 1 morph does not work as intended-meant to prime immediately but Daedric Tomb takes time to form, so there is still a priming time
• Daedric Tomb is too offensive to be a proper zoning tool
• Daedric Mines is too niche-too strong in a 1v1 and as a means to setup a "camp" but too weak if not camped
• Skill is meant to create distance by zoning. Eternal Hunt does a significantly better job than this skill. Mines should be modelled after how Eternal Hunt performs
• Skill simply needs to be more universal and Mines needs to be less overbearing

Bolt Escape
Gap Opener and utility skill. This is arguably a class defining skill

• Increased cost per cast makes this skill too punishing to be used reliably outside of running away
• Prevalence of gap closers renders this skill useless, especially since 1 gap closer outranges 2 casts of Bolt Escape and morphs
• Both morphs of the skill are actually great. Base skill simply needs QoL changes
• SHOULD NOT gain snare removal/immunity
• Physics for this skill is clunky. Momentum is lost, cannot use on stairs and the start and end of the skill are to blocky
• Severely debilitating to use when rooted. Should be able to move in direction player is moving. This would enable offensive repositioning, especially on console.

Daedric Skill Line
This Class Line needs to be looked at before any changes are made. Passives are the foundation for a class and sorcs are pretty much missing a third of that foundation.

• These passives NEED to benefit all sorcs, not just pet sorcs.
• Pets should not need to be double barred. With the removal of the Overload third bar, pet sorcs will have no space
• Pets are useless in PvP and annoying in PvE
• Re-summoning Pets is too hard/punishing or too difficult to counter for some specs/lag
• In duels, pets are too strong. They should be more prone to CC to create healthier counterplay. This would help with the previous point
• Matriarch AI is poor. A defensive pet should have a smaller leash and not be on the other side of a keep
• Bound Armor is a nice attempt but its active is pointless. Block does not need to reduce more damage outside of certain situations. Does not have any synergy with mag sorcs who cannot afford to block in the first place

May as well buff the rest of my bars, while you're at it.

IZZEFlameLash

Can we put cast time on these too? Tyvm.

Mystrius_Archaion

As for a counter-proposal....

I like the idea of Vigor as a comparison.
There are actually damage shields that do behave more like Vigor, with smaller bursts over longer time, such as the set "Prayer Shawl" which has a 5-piece bonus saying "When you heal a friendly target, you have a 6% chance to grant them a damage shield that absorbs 28-2425 damage for 6 seconds.", or something close if uesp.net isn't updated.

That set can stack with itself, apparently, but has a low enough chance that it is unlikely to do so. That would be an excellent way if such a damage shield was guaranteed to proc maybe every 2 seconds and only last 3 seconds for 2000 damage shielded or something. It would both not be overpowered as a single huge shield and be much more useful over time as a "proactive tool".

That's just the idea I got from your Vigor discussion before I didn't read the rest of your post, sorry TL;DR. lol


Edit:
Yes, the Daedric Summoning line for sorcerers needs some work as it isn't very desirable at all. The only tool most took from there, other than pets once they got buffed, was the old Bound Armor for passive buffs and the Hardened Ward for shield stacking. The other skills are rather weak and difficult to use properly and the new Bound Armor isn't nearly as desirable and the pets are sometimes just hated.

IAVITNI

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

As for a counter-proposal....

I like the idea of Vigor as a comparison.
There are actually damage shields that do behave more like Vigor, with smaller bursts over longer time, such as the set "Prayer Shawl" which has a 5-piece bonus saying "When you heal a friendly target, you have a 6% chance to grant them a damage shield that absorbs 28-2425 damage for 6 seconds.", or something close if uesp.net isn't updated.

That set can stack with itself, apparently, but has a low enough chance that it is unlikely to do so. That would be an excellent way if such a damage shield was guaranteed to proc maybe every 2 seconds and only last 3 seconds for 2000 damage shielded or something. It would both not be overpowered as a single huge shield and be much more useful over time as a "proactive tool".

That's just the idea I got from your Vigor discussion before I didn't read the rest of your post, sorry TL;DR. lol


Edit:
Yes, the Daedric Summoning line for sorcerers needs some work as it isn't very desirable at all. The only tool most took from there, other than pets once they got buffed, was the old Bound Armor for passive buffs and the Hardened Ward for shield stacking. The other skills are rather weak and difficult to use properly and the new Bound Armor isn't nearly as desirable and the pets are sometimes just hated.

Ya that's pretty much the gist of it lol. The rest is just asking for buffs to other defensive skills and why they need a buff in the first place. The class doesn't really NEED shields, but the rest of the kit needs to be buffed for QoL aspects if the class is to be competitive without it.

Personally, I'd like if Hardened worked as Rally did, where you get a big shield based on time between casts. This would give the class identity amongst shield users and still require proactive play since you can't keep popping the skill for a strong shield.

The Vigor comparison just seems the mostt likely compromise we will get beyond no cast time but 1 second delay, which I am also fine with IF the rest of the class is buffed to compensate.

Witar

You can't compare shields to vigor cause shields are only defence magsorcs have, while vigor works in tandem with heavy armor, permablock and momentum heal, as well as class heal abilities, sometimes turning stamina dk\warden into unkillable yet quite capable of killing death machine. *** of those on vivec eu pc for example.

Mystrius_Archaion

Witar wrote: »

You can't compare shields to vigor cause shields are only defence magsorcs have, while vigor works in tandem with heavy armor, permablock and momentum heal, as well as class heal abilities, sometimes turning stamina dk\warden into unkillable yet quite capable of killing death machine. *** of those on vivec eu pc for example.

Actually, now shields do work in tandem with all those also, as they only worked with heals and enemy debuffs before.
So now they are directly comparable on PTS.

But...the point was huge shields are the problem ZOS sees so if they want to solve that problem they could just make it many smaller shields over time, like vigor is smaller heals over time.

IAVITNI

Witar wrote: »

You can't compare shields to vigor cause shields are only defence magsorcs have, while vigor works in tandem with heavy armor, permablock and momentum heal, as well as class heal abilities, sometimes turning stamina dk\warden into unkillable yet quite capable of killing death machine. *** of those on vivec eu pc for example.

And I agree, hence the second half of my post. If sorcs can reliably create distance with melee specs, the class would be much better off. Snare removal on Lightning Armor, Mines create distance in the same way Eternal Hunt does, Streak not being such a resource drain would all help in that regard.

The biggest threat would then be magblades, but they are also suffering from these shield changes and tbh, that match up is only a real threat if the magblade can maintain a melee distance 1v1.

The whole point is that if ZoS wants to reduce reliance on shields, there needs to be a valid alternative to rely on. The cast time can be worked around IF sorcs can actually create distance. Having Conjured Ward work like a Rally would create actual identity for sorcs from a defensive stand point.

Offensive rotations for the class is a separate issue all together as the sorc kit goes against ZoS' current PvP direction.

Solariken

Very insightful OP, even though I don't agree with everything.

I love the concept of shield over time and would definitely prefer it over a cast time.

I vehemently oppose snare/root immunity for sorc, but a snare/root purge would be acceptable for Boundless Storm or even Ball of Lightning.

Witar

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

You can't compare shields to vigor cause shields are only defence magsorcs have, while vigor works in tandem with heavy armor, permablock and momentum heal, as well as class heal abilities, sometimes turning stamina dk\warden into unkillable yet quite capable of killing death machine. *** of those on vivec eu pc for example.

Actually, now shields do work in tandem with all those also, as they only worked with heals and enemy debuffs before.
So now they are directly comparable on PTS.

But...the point was huge shields are the problem ZOS sees so if they want to solve that problem they could just make it many smaller shields over time, like vigor is smaller heals over time.

Nobodys gonna use 1 second cast time defence in active pvp. Max you can do is play turtle all the time wearing heavy and casting shields on yourself leaving no time to counterattack. No fun in that.

IAVITNI

Solariken wrote: »

Very insightful OP, even though I don't agree with everything.

I love the concept of shield over time and would definitely prefer it over a cast time.

I vehemently oppose snare/root immunity for sorc, but a snare/root purge would be acceptable for Boundless Storm or even Ball of Lightning.

The problem with snare/root purge on Ball of Lightning is that it would make the class far too mobile and also prevent any further buffs/QoL changes to the skill. If the skill becomes a snare/root purge, it becomes too strong as a gap opener, but if it retains the cost it negates the ability to open said gaps in current snare/swift meta on top of gap closers.

Lightning Armor is the best contender for snare/root purge. I'd say a 1.5 sec immunity is necessary. We all saw how immunity on wings was almost useless. At least with wings, recasting the skill refreshed the amount of reflects. Spamming Lightning Armor does nothing and would be a detriment on a stam sorc.

Any immunity below 1.5 seconds simply ensures that a sorc will be resnared immediately after cast, which is a waste of a GCD and does not feel rewarding. 1.5 seconds is the sweet spot, I simply said 2.5 to provide a range, but 1.5 is where I would personally put it.

Ideally sorcs should only have access to snare immunity, just not sure if ZoS is actually capable of decoupling snares and roots. Based on each PTS, it seems like the current team has no idea how the base code works since a lot of simple changes seem to take forever.

IF Streak can be used in any direction, regardless of Root/Snare and has it's cost increase removed than arguably sorcs do not need immunity/purge at all. That would have to be tested.

Feanor

Every reasoning as to why a shield nerf is „necessary“ just completely crumbles if you take noCP into the equation.

IAVITNI

Feanor wrote: »

Every reasoning as to why a shield nerf is „necessary“ just completely crumbles if you take noCP into the equation.

CP has bigger problems than poor shield scaling. If base shield values were higher but scaled less with magicka, noCP would probably be very different. Not better, but different.

Proc sets are not designed around no CP and because CP provides more mitigation than damage output, little damage buffs, both direct and indirect, have a much greater impact in no CP.

Even then, a night blade can easily tear through shields in no CP with 2 SA weaves unless a sorc camps mines. Over-performing in one situation (CP) and under-performing in another (no CP) is not the definition of balance. So reasonings for a nerf become valid in that sense, but only within the context of a subsequent buff to another mechanic, so based on semantics you are correct. But shields cannot be buffed before being nerfed. So I stand by the "step in the right direction, but in the wrong spot" attitude I stated in the OP.

Yes skills should have strengths and weaknesses but shields go from mindlessly easy to excessive struggle from CP to no CP, respectively.

ZoS simply fails to understand that nerfing the optimal setup for an average class will bring that class to below average without proper compensation. I guess its a complex reaction chain to some.