What do you think of the changes for Sorc Tanks?

Tasear

Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

Summon Unstable Clannfear (morph): Decreased the cost of the special attack from this morph by approximately 33%

Bound Armor: Increased the bonus to block mitigation granted by this ability and its morphs to 36% from 20%.

Shield strength increased with resistances.

Gibus043

I didn't try it on PTS but so far I'm disappointed
SorcTanks can spam Dark Deal to refill stamina when there are pauses during the fight (ex. vMoL last boss when you move from a sigil to another). It's the only advantage they have over other tank classes.
They have no other ways to recover stamina

This change just kills it. There's no point to use it over a TankDK, a TankDen or maybe now a TankPlar

ccfeeling

PVE

The new mitigation benefits are not really that helpful while blocking , just few percent at all .
No block in hard content ? Never

Shield is so cool this patch , especially for tank , but only for instant shield cast class , DK and Templar , yes DK again

New dark deal is OK , no sustain nerf , just require longer time , like NB and Warden , sustain over time , I think this is the action zos wanna balance Sorc sustain burst in PVP

Hunt leader + infuse jewellery x 3 + deep thought and dark deal optional , cast at good time

When you have above setup , you will have very good sustain and run one debuff set such as TP .

Tasear

ccfeeling wrote: »

PVE

The new mitigation benefits are not really that helpful while blocking , just few percent at all .
No block in hard content ? Never

Shield is so cool this patch , especially for tank , but only for instant shield cast class , DK and Templar , yes DK again

New dark deal is OK , no sustain nerf , just require longer time , like NB and Warden , sustain over time , I think this is the action zos wanna balance Sorc sustain burst in PVP

Hunt leader + infuse jewellery x 3 + deep thought and dark deal optional , cast at good time

When you have above setup , you will have very good sustain and run one debuff set such as TP .

It gives 2k less resources from before.

Tasear

Gibus043 wrote: »

I didn't try it on PTS but so far I'm disappointed
SorcTanks can spam Dark Deal to refill stamina when there are pauses during the fight (ex. vMoL last boss when you move from a sigil to another). It's the only advantage they have over other tank classes.
They have no other ways to recover stamina

This change just kills it. There's no point to use it over a TankDK, a TankDen or maybe now a TankPlar

Do you think the Resources over time will add opportunities?

AgaTheGreat

I wanted to create a third tank and make it a sorcerer but all these changes are just *** and put me off doing anything with my sorc now.

Tasear

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

I wanted to create a third tank and make it a sorcerer but all these changes are just *** and put me off doing anything with my sorc now.

Which changes in particular?

ccfeeling

Tasear wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

PVE

The new mitigation benefits are not really that helpful while blocking , just few percent at all .
No block in hard content ? Never

Shield is so cool this patch , especially for tank , but only for instant shield cast class , DK and Templar , yes DK again

New dark deal is OK , no sustain nerf , just require longer time , like NB and Warden , sustain over time , I think this is the action zos wanna balance Sorc sustain burst in PVP

Hunt leader + infuse jewellery x 3 + deep thought and dark deal optional , cast at good time

When you have above setup , you will have very good sustain and run one debuff set such as TP .

It gives 2k less resources from before.

Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

You are right if you are talking about instant status .

Tasear

ccfeeling wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

PVE

The new mitigation benefits are not really that helpful while blocking , just few percent at all .
No block in hard content ? Never

Shield is so cool this patch , especially for tank , but only for instant shield cast class , DK and Templar , yes DK again

New dark deal is OK , no sustain nerf , just require longer time , like NB and Warden , sustain over time , I think this is the action zos wanna balance Sorc sustain burst in PVP

Hunt leader + infuse jewellery x 3 + deep thought and dark deal optional , cast at good time

When you have above setup , you will have very good sustain and run one debuff set such as TP .

It gives 2k less resources from before.

Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

You are right if you are talking about instant status .

Was just on pts. I see 4k resources coming back. 2k at first then 2k after. It's 6k on live.

ccfeeling

Tasear wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

PVE

The new mitigation benefits are not really that helpful while blocking , just few percent at all .
No block in hard content ? Never

Shield is so cool this patch , especially for tank , but only for instant shield cast class , DK and Templar , yes DK again

New dark deal is OK , no sustain nerf , just require longer time , like NB and Warden , sustain over time , I think this is the action zos wanna balance Sorc sustain burst in PVP

Hunt leader + infuse jewellery x 3 + deep thought and dark deal optional , cast at good time

When you have above setup , you will have very good sustain and run one debuff set such as TP .

It gives 2k less resources from before.

Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

You are right if you are talking about instant status .

Was just on pts. I see 4k resources coming back. 2k at first then 2k after.

Exactly .
No impact in PVE but PVP . Isn't it ?

AgaTheGreat

Mostly changes to dark deal and taking the bar from power overload. I had this build in mind for an off tank vmol runner and having that third bar to slot additional skills would be useful. I guess nothing will beat a dragon knight in terms of resource management.

Sparr0w

Tasear wrote: »

Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

Disappointed, if it was instant cast that would be a LOT better, maybe with a cooldown to prevent spam.

Tasear wrote: »

Summon Unstable Clannfear (morph): Decreased the cost of the special attack from this morph by approximately 33%

Nice change, was very expensive prior.

Tasear wrote: »

Bound Armor: Increased the bonus to block mitigation granted by this ability and its morphs to 36% from 20%.

Could be nice but I've never really used it. Might be more useful should the shield change stick...

Tasear wrote: »

Shield strength increased with resistances.

With a second cast time... don't really see them being used on a tank anymore, bone shield would be a better alternative.

Liofa

Even though it seems like no change, it indeed is a nerf because tanks have limited time to drop their block and cast their skills. When we have like 3 seconds, we would cast the skill twice in a row. Now we can't if we want to get full benefit. It's basically a potential sustain nerf.

Moonsorrow

Dark deal with half of stam less instantly is bad thing for my sorc tank playstyle sadly. Been using Deal at pauses of fights and when using with SnB ulti, to "spam" Deal when its up to recover my block pool. Half less is bad. Already its been a struggle imo compared to DK and warden that when playing those its easy for me to just recover stam while blocking.

Sorc tanking been fun because i like sorc passives a lot, its been fun making a sorc tank with high hp with lots of physical and shock damage for Implosions left and right, funny to see over 50k implosions when they crit. Been fun at Vet pve dungeons. Now with the Deal change its gonna be a struggle i think.

Not even gonna talk about the 1s cast time on shields.. its a very bad thing and hope its not going live.

And resources over time for ME and my sorc tanking its not gonna add opportunities really, i wanna be the old unique stamsorc with my Deal and get instant rewarding stamina back, not some half and half warden mini-netch type of deal. Why do all the class defining unique playstyle have to disappear? Sad days we live. Playing should be fun and feel rewarding after a hard day in real life.

Using Deal been a gamble already, since had to drop block (or wait for SnB ulti to be up, and cannot use that all the time if wanna use Warhorn at right times) so it should be powerful. Or.. why even play sorc tank over the easy and safe choices? Serious question to the developers that one. Why play something over the way easier and safe choices if there is nothing special left on sorc tank that was already considered one of the "worst choices" for a tank?

Most likely not gonna play my sorc tank much anymore, the changes will make it no fun to play and really struggle on resource management for my playstyle atleast. Someone else might feel different, but oh well, gotta be honest about being really sad about this. Think will not be alone with this thought, even there is maybe not that big amount of sorc tank enthusiasts. Not gonna do any rage posts about this nerf.. but pretty please do not nerf it like this? Please keep sorc tanking fun and the gamble of Dealing rewarding.

And yeah, as always, i understand the reasoning on this, its about pvp stamsorcs.. and yeah, i love the skill at pvp, what stamsorc would not admit that? But for pve and tanking as this thread asks, its not good and will see more blue screens of death with tips telling me to block strong attacks from monsters when not enough resources to block at the right times. Already its been living on the edge at the hardest content even with healer giving shards/orbs.

Zer0oo

I tanked on my sorc almost all dungeons including wolfhunter hm. I do not think sorc tanks are anywhere near top tank classes and even less the next patch. I just wanted the all achievement on my main even if most dungeons would be so much easier to tank on my dk tank.

Positive about a sorc tank:

• hots (if you crit)
• mobility if build for it

Negative about a sorc tank:

• no good burst self heal
• sustain only per cast time and nerfed next patch
• no grp support
• no good oh-***-ulti

The pet buff is mostly irrelevant since it is a pet: it can die, takes 2 bar spaces, expensive as hell, can not be use in some fights, bugs out ,gets aggro so you cant stack adds ...
Also it only heals you and the pet, it does not heal any group members.


dark deal change is just a nerf

Bound Armor: Dunno what to do with this skill. It is expensive for a tank and most of the time it did not feel it was worth using. As long as i survive i can get healed up and the little extra hp i do not love is not worth it. The skill is kinda strong but it is a lot stronger on a low resistant build(no real tank build) so could i survive a hit from St. Olms in light armor with this skill.

How shields will impact tanking i will let open since i would need to test some things before that. But in general i do not think a typical sorc tank will benefit from it that much especial since you have to go through a cast time and stack magica but other classes with % hp will mostly benefit from it.

Thraben

Tasear wrote: »

Dark Exchange: 1 This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

2 Summon Unstable Clannfear (morph): Decreased the cost of the special attack from this morph by approximately 33%

3 Bound Armor: Increased the bonus to block mitigation granted by this ability and its morphs to 36% from 20%.

5 Shield strength increased with resistances.

1) better having more stamina now then more in 20 seconds. In 20 seconds the group might already have wiped. The amount of transfered ressources could be increased by 50% though to stop spamming the Skill

2) OK

3) we need a longer duration not a stronger effect. I use Bone Shield instead against burst.

4) useful

5) OVERLOAD. Our class identity and usefulness as tanks is bound to our ability to slot more utility skills than the otherwise superior DKs and Wardens.

If they really want to improve it, we need to be able to slot conjured variants of our weapon Skills on the OL bar instead of slotting OL Skills on our weapons bar. The animation of Skyrim's Bound Weapon Skill (before the weapon skill's animation) would be enough to prevent abuse as it would basically add a cast time to every weapon skill used on the OL bar.

EVERY Stamsorc tank would love it to have access to situational conjured Twohander Skills even it they are twice as slow as the normal weapon skill.
(MagSorc healers would love it too, by the way, to slot a healing staff skill on the OL bar, even if it is slow and clunky)

MashmalloMan

Tasear wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

PVE

The new mitigation benefits are not really that helpful while blocking , just few percent at all .
No block in hard content ? Never

Shield is so cool this patch , especially for tank , but only for instant shield cast class , DK and Templar , yes DK again

New dark deal is OK , no sustain nerf , just require longer time , like NB and Warden , sustain over time , I think this is the action zos wanna balance Sorc sustain burst in PVP

Hunt leader + infuse jewellery x 3 + deep thought and dark deal optional , cast at good time

When you have above setup , you will have very good sustain and run one debuff set such as TP .

It gives 2k less resources from before.

Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

You are right if you are talking about instant status .

Was just on pts. I see 4k resources coming back. 2k at first then 2k after. It's 6k on live.

I don't know where you got those numbers.

LIVE
Cost: 3078 magicka.
Cast time: 1.2 sec
4878 stamina immediately
8059 health immediately

PTS
Cost: 2309 magicka.
Cast time: 1.2 sec
2400 stamina immediately - 2400 stamina over 20 seconds (120/sec)
8059 health immediately

I generally don't agree with the changes and think 1 of the 3 options needs to happen in order of importance to me.

1. Instant Cast Time
2. Increased overall stamina return from 2400 over 20 seconds to 4000.
3. Decrease the 20 second timer for 2400 to 10 seconds for 3000.

I don't know why Gina said +2% resource return when it's -1.6% less.

That being said, it costs less magicka for tanks now, that might help a little.. but it's also a weaker sustain tool. I don't see this helping tanks with the change. Having the return upfront is more useful than over 20 seconds. Furthermore. Why would any tank slot bound armaments and waste bar space. I really dislike the expensive 36% block mitigation.

Bound armor is a DPS skill. I will never understand why they made it give you block mitigation, they could of made it much more interesting. Is a tank going to light attack in his rotation while he is blocking? Do tanks need more DPS? I don't understand.

Maybe a bound aegis magicka tank build. Just seems so extremely niche, would of been really cool if they changed bound armor in to bound weapon, give us something cool to use for magicka/stamina DD's.

troomar

I'm talking strictly about PvE.

Tasear wrote: »

Dark Deal

No change for real tanks. We don't need the stamina part of this skill except speed runs. It's the Heal (Health part) that is useful and it remained unchanged.

Tasear wrote: »

Summon Unstable Clannfear (morph): Decreased the cost of the special attack from this morph by approximately 33%

No change for real tanks. Pets are useless because they die and you can't prevent it. You can't use pets in vet HM dungeons and you can't use them in trials.

Tasear wrote: »

Bound Armor: Increased the bonus to block mitigation granted by this ability and its morphs to 36% from 20%.

Exceptional buff. Even 20% was worth it and it was noticeable. More mitigation, more stamina sustain (you know, tank + 3DDs, so you have to use Vigor). We don't need longer effect, we need stronger effect, so this is a great buff. Useful in trials too.

Tasear wrote: »

Overload

No change for real tanks. We don't use overload.

Tasear wrote: »

Shield strength increased with resistances.

This is actually very interesting and I have to test it. It's rather buff for stamina DPS, but for tanks it can be useful too, especially as a party support spell.

Nox_Noir

Overall negative, mostly because the dark deal nerf weighs so heavy.
I tank on sorc, tanked all DLC dungeons, vDSA, some vet trials.
My opinion on specific skills and their changes:

Dark Deal
This was pretty much the backbone of the build, the only really cool unique thing it had over other classes tanks.
The cast time was always really annoying, but the instant resource return made it just worth it - I feel this won't be true anymore.
The relatively big heal that DD gives is pretty much irrelevant. I don't think the devs understand this. The reason is simply because the cast time drops block and makes us very vulnerable. If a lot is happening (adds, AOE's lots of hit eating stam), I often lose more Health during a dark deal cast than it even restores. The heal does simply not function as a proper self heal because the cast time ruins it.
Therefore, the only real perk of dark deal was the resource restoration on demand, which is now significantly reduced.
There is one small potential benefit of the change in that dark deal can now be precasted before a fight to start the 20 second resource return, however, it is very small.
This change to dark deal without removing its cast time simply puts it into a really weird position where its neither one thing nor the other compared to other classes skills (netch etc)

Bound Aegis
I liked the concept of the skill to actively reinforce a block and it did help mitigate quite a bit more damage. But it was very expensive and ridiculously short, so I never felt it was really enough to make it worth slotting and I ended up using vigor instead because the self heal of dark deal alone was too unreliable.
Did the buff to its mitigation to 36% make this skill more attractive? Maybe. I'm not sure. I would have preferred a cost reduction and longer duration instead.

Unstable Clannfear
The cost was beyond ridiculous, now 33% less. That's going in the right direction, but is frankly irrelevant because its still a pet after all which causes only trouble, and wastes TWO bar slots. That's two No-Go's in my opinion. I can't imagine that any buff to this pet would make it desirable for tanks as long as its AI problems and waste of bar space aren't addressed.

Resistances for Shields (referring to conjured ward in particular since it can be used in heavy armor)
Would be interesting if not for the damn cast time that drops block... Bound aegis, probably serves the purpose better because it can be block cast, but probably not even that, but vigor would win that bar slot instead, as mentioned above.
Additionally, the shield strength on tank build is significantly weaker. It's hard to exceed 20k max magicka on any reasonable build, which puts the shield size somewhere around 8k. If one were to build for very high max magicka just to increase the shield size, sacrifices to utility sets and/or health and stamina pools would have to be made, of which the consequences would likely not justify the benefits. Particularly sacrificing stamina pool, which is the main blocking resource and a high pool serves as a buffer and indirectly resembles block sustain.

So in a nutshell, there are a number of small positive, but ultimately irrelevant changes, and one big very negative one (Dark Deal) I'm not looking forward to Murkmire if this change makes it to live I can tell you that.

akl77

Just bring sorc tank to any dlc dungeon, you’ll see it’ll get one shot cos of the 1 sec shield.
The boss hit so hard it’s gonna break your shield or a stun move then next second your dead.
Don’t even talk about other abilities, you won’t even have a chance to use them.
Sorc tank will no longer be playable, completely killed by ZOS, what sort of tank balance on all classes is this?
Like if there’s not already short of tanks everywhere when you queue anything.

Tasear

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

PVE

The new mitigation benefits are not really that helpful while blocking , just few percent at all .
No block in hard content ? Never

Shield is so cool this patch , especially for tank , but only for instant shield cast class , DK and Templar , yes DK again

New dark deal is OK , no sustain nerf , just require longer time , like NB and Warden , sustain over time , I think this is the action zos wanna balance Sorc sustain burst in PVP

Hunt leader + infuse jewellery x 3 + deep thought and dark deal optional , cast at good time

When you have above setup , you will have very good sustain and run one debuff set such as TP .

It gives 2k less resources from before.

Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

You are right if you are talking about instant status .

Was just on pts. I see 4k resources coming back. 2k at first then 2k after. It's 6k on live.

I don't know where you got those numbers.

LIVE
Cost: 3078 magicka.
Cast time: 1.2 sec
4878 stamina immediately
8059 health immediately

PTS
Cost: 2309 magicka.
Cast time: 1.2 sec
2400 stamina immediately - 2400 stamina over 20 seconds (120/sec)
8059 health immediately

I generally don't agree with the changes and think 1 of the 3 options needs to happen in order of importance to me.

1. Instant Cast Time
2. Increased overall stamina return from 2400 over 20 seconds to 4000.
3. Decrease the 20 second timer for 2400 to 10 seconds for 3000.

I don't know why Gina said +2% resource return when it's -1.6% less.

That being said, it costs less magicka for tanks now, that might help a little.. but it's also a weaker sustain tool. I don't see this helping tanks with the change. Having the return upfront is more useful than over 20 seconds. Furthermore. Why would any tank slot bound armaments and waste bar space. I really dislike the expensive 36% block mitigation.

Bound armor is a DPS skill. I will never understand why they made it give you block mitigation, they could of made it much more interesting. Is a tank going to light attack in his rotation while he is blocking? Do tanks need more DPS? I don't understand.

Maybe a bound aegis magicka tank build. Just seems so extremely niche, would of been really cool if they changed bound armor in to bound weapon, give us something cool to use for magicka/stamina DD's.

That's sounds like a bug with 1.6% less resources. I passed it along.

UrQuan

I tank a lot, but I've only dabbled a little in sorc tanking, so take this for what it's worth: more of the point of view of a non-sorc tank from the outside looking in.

Tasear wrote: »

Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.

I'm not sure about this. Because of the cast time I've always thought that this is an ability that a tank would use sparingly, and only when you know it's safe to drop block for at least 2 seconds. I'd need more experience with sorc tanking to be able to say whether this change will work better or worse with the cadence.

What I mean by that is that I'd need to have a better idea if you're usually desperate for stamina by the time you can take the time to cast this (in which case this is bad), or whether this is an ability where it's practical to use it proactively before you're too much in need of resources (in which case this is good, because a return over time will see you making full use of all of the stamina rather than potentially losing out on some of it because your pool wasn't low enough)

Tasear wrote: »

Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

Seems like a very good thing for a sorc tank. Tanking is very much about resource management, and this is one of the best resource management tools available to sorcs, so making it cost less magicka would have to help sorc tanks.

Tasear wrote: »

Summon Unstable Clannfear (morph): Decreased the cost of the special attack from this morph by approximately 33%

Are there any sorc tanks who actually use the Clannfear for anything other than PUGs where they don't know if they can rely on having a good healer? I mean, a decrease in cost is a buff I guess, but I'm not sure it makes this ability relevant for tanking, outside of PUGs anyway.

Tasear wrote: »

Bound Armor: Increased the bonus to block mitigation granted by this ability and its morphs to 36% from 20%.

Another buff, but I'm not convinced it's particularly helpful. I'd think increased duration would be far more useful than an increase to block mitigation. A 3 second duration makes the active portion of this skill practically useless as far as I'm concerned. The passive portion of this skill is still great IMO, I just can't see myself using the active portion of it even on a tank.

Tasear wrote: »

Shield strength increased with resistances.

As long as there's a cast time, I don't see this as helpful because a tank will rarely be able to have a shield active when it's really needed. In most boss fights there's plenty of time when you can drop block long enough to get in a heavy attack and other things that take some time. The ones where a nice-sized shield comes in really handy, though, are also the ones with the fewest opportunities for a tank to drop block without getting killed/stunned/etc.

Again, experienced tank, but not really with a sorc, so take that for what it's worth.

DoobZ69

@Tasear
What's the point in discussing this? Are any of these changes what the class reps recommended in the last 2 months? If yes then you shouldn't be asking us about them now. And if not then they're clearly not listening to the "pain points" which were put forward or any of the community feedback. So 2 months worth of suggestions and now we have to discuss something entirely new. We asked for apples, they gave us oranges, now discuss how we can turn those oranges into apples. Its an exercise in stupidity at this point, do we just keep being taken for fools? Its just insulting.

Tasear

DoobZ69 wrote: »

@Tasear
What's the point in discussing this? Are any of these changes what the class reps recommended in the last 2 months? If yes then you shouldn't be asking us about them now. And if not then they're clearly not listening to the "pain points" which were put forward or any of the community feedback. So 2 months worth of suggestions and now we have to discuss something entirely new. We asked for apples, they gave us oranges, now discuss how we can turn those oranges into apples. Its an exercise in stupidity at this point, do we just keep being taken for fools? Its just insulting.

I understand you are angry, but p.t.s is supposed to be a time for testing, so forgive if I ask how things are going.

WrathOfInnos

If a large part of the resource return is now over time, then this skill should really become instant cast. Siphoning Attacks, Betty Netch, and Channeled Focus are all instant cast, because they restore resources over 20s+.

DoobZ69

Tasear wrote: »

DoobZ69 wrote: »

@Tasear
What's the point in discussing this? Are any of these changes what the class reps recommended in the last 2 months? If yes then you shouldn't be asking us about them now. And if not then they're clearly not listening to the "pain points" which were put forward or any of the community feedback. So 2 months worth of suggestions and now we have to discuss something entirely new. We asked for apples, they gave us oranges, now discuss how we can turn those oranges into apples. Its an exercise in stupidity at this point, do we just keep being taken for fools? Its just insulting.

I understand you are angry, but p.t.s is supposed to be a time for testing, so forgive if I ask how things are going.

1 you ask how things are going
2 we explain what is wrong
3 we get punched in the stomach
4 you ask how things are going

tell me at which point in the cycle we're supposed to give up?

Here's a very simple paper comparison between a DK and a Sorc and I am being severely generous to the Sorc here

DK useful tanking ultimates = 3
Sorc useful tanking ultimates = 0

DK useful tanking passives = 11
Sorc useful tanking passives = 7

Don't even get me started on the synergy between skills as well as group support. Its plain as day and night on paper -> Sorc has no tanking capability strengths and if a class without any tanking strengths is a viable tank then Sorc is a viable tank!

Tasear

DoobZ69 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

DoobZ69 wrote: »

@Tasear
What's the point in discussing this? Are any of these changes what the class reps recommended in the last 2 months? If yes then you shouldn't be asking us about them now. And if not then they're clearly not listening to the "pain points" which were put forward or any of the community feedback. So 2 months worth of suggestions and now we have to discuss something entirely new. We asked for apples, they gave us oranges, now discuss how we can turn those oranges into apples. Its an exercise in stupidity at this point, do we just keep being taken for fools? Its just insulting.

I understand you are angry, but p.t.s is supposed to be a time for testing, so forgive if I ask how things are going.

1 you ask how things are going
2 we explain what is wrong
3 we get punched in the stomach
4 you ask how things are going

tell me at which point in the cycle we're supposed to give up?

Here's a very simple paper comparison between a DK and a Sorc and I am being severely generous to the Sorc here

DK useful tanking ultimates = 3
Sorc useful tanking ultimates = 0

DK useful tanking passives = 11
Sorc useful tanking passives = 7

Don't even get me started on the synergy between skills as well as group support. Its plain as day and night on paper -> Sorc has no tanking capability strengths and if a class without any tanking strengths is a viable tank then Sorc is a viable tank!

Well what would you like me to do ingore feedback and give up? I been trying to help for past 5 months as nothing but a volunteer.

Tannus15

Tasear wrote: »

DoobZ69 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

DoobZ69 wrote: »

@Tasear
What's the point in discussing this? Are any of these changes what the class reps recommended in the last 2 months? If yes then you shouldn't be asking us about them now. And if not then they're clearly not listening to the "pain points" which were put forward or any of the community feedback. So 2 months worth of suggestions and now we have to discuss something entirely new. We asked for apples, they gave us oranges, now discuss how we can turn those oranges into apples. Its an exercise in stupidity at this point, do we just keep being taken for fools? Its just insulting.

I understand you are angry, but p.t.s is supposed to be a time for testing, so forgive if I ask how things are going.

1 you ask how things are going
2 we explain what is wrong
3 we get punched in the stomach
4 you ask how things are going

tell me at which point in the cycle we're supposed to give up?

Here's a very simple paper comparison between a DK and a Sorc and I am being severely generous to the Sorc here

DK useful tanking ultimates = 3
Sorc useful tanking ultimates = 0

DK useful tanking passives = 11
Sorc useful tanking passives = 7

Don't even get me started on the synergy between skills as well as group support. Its plain as day and night on paper -> Sorc has no tanking capability strengths and if a class without any tanking strengths is a viable tank then Sorc is a viable tank!

Well what would you like me to do ingore feedback and give up? I been trying to help for past 5 months as nothing but a volunteer.

imho you're doing an ace job Taser. You're asking the questions that Zos should be asking, collating the feedback and presenting it to them.

I don't think anyone is frustrated with you, but with the seeming lack of acknowledgment from ZoS about what we now feel are the issues we've made crystal clear.

I mean, you can dot point them now.

• Sorc sustain sucks in every role and dark conversion doesn't help because of the cast time
• Sorc has almost no utility for the group and as such is the worst class for both healing and tanking
• The group heals rely on keeping a stupid pet alive which is required to be double barred

Everything else is skirting around the edges. Unless it addresses one of these issues it's basically a pointless change and we don't care.

Extra block on bound aegis? Who cares? I can't tank because I don't have any resource management while maintaining block and no one wants me to tank because I have nothing in my toolkit to actually assist the rest of the group.

I can't heal because if my twilight dies then I have no emergency heal, I have no support abilities which will bring anything to the group other than minor prophecy and none of the dark magic skills synergise with healing at all.

DPS wise sorcs are the most selfish class in the game. Nothing they have heals or boosts the group, yet for some reason they are not the best dps in any area either. They are "fine". Without full support they are bad. Stam sorcs don't have major fracture, Mag sorcs don't have major breach, neither have minor berserk. They are almost entirely reliant on support from a healer and a tank if they want to be on par, not better than, just close, to a night-blade.

We all know this. It's obvious to anyone who has played a PvE at all. Just read the skill list

We're not frustrated with you or any of the community reps. It's the utter unwillingness for ZoS to acknowledge and attempt to address ANY of these issues.

DoobZ69

@Tasear

Hey I'm not having a go at you, I like what you do. But at this stage it feels like we're being asked about a tummy ache after a mine blows all of our limbs off, you know?

I've asked a few times now for a Class Rep to comment on what they think of what they got vs what they were expecting and am not receiving an answer (if there is one I would like to be pointed to it's location). That comes off as covering for the development team, especially if the meeting with them has to take place before their voices are heard. If this is still 1way communication then what was the point? We cried out and got ignored before, if this continues then nothing has changed.

Fine, I'll bite. The only tanking ultimate we had was Overload's 3rd bar. It made up for the lack of passives with the buffs inbuilt into abilities instead as well as a magicka sustain assist. Crit surge's healing, circle of protection, vigour, etc. Now its gone and we are 5 necessary abilities/buffs down.

As it stands we have no class heal at all worthy of a tank. Dark exchange is terrible. With the cast it is a dangerous heal and only worth using when convenient, the stamina return is only useful to a magicka sorc tank and both stam or mag return totally useless to a stam tank. Without the cast it is the single most OP ability in the game and will turn Sorc tanks into permablockers: Buff yourself up with masses of magicka regen and hold block while spamming non-stop heal+stamina return - > OPAF. Every Sorc tank will be forced to build only one way. I'm shocked but not surprised so many people are asking for this and think it will somehow make up for all the Sorc downfalls and I'm ridiculed on the Discord for not following suit.

Pets: its been said non-stop so this is another beat-the-dead-horse reminder: pets are no good for tanking. Full stop.

Bound Armor: As much as I like the skill (even though I would redesign it in a blink of an eye) I am reminded of this every time I cast it: DK Iron Skin Passive: •Block an additional 10% damage. No cost, no activation needed, no need to use up an ability slot, don't lose a sustain passive or resists when switching bars. Plain better. Therefore BA is trash and can be considered a gimmick but is a must on both bars.

Shield for tanking. The shield is purely for soaking up damage and has no other benefits. Slotting it gives a sustain passive which alone is better than the skill itself. Its what the players would call a selfish skill, boring and situational. Not worth the rotation cast time.

I look forward to all this being ignored and ridiculed for opening my mouth. Churr

Tannus15

@DoobZ69

Without the cast it is the single most OP ability in the game and will turn Sorc tanks into permablockers: Buff yourself up with masses of magicka regen and hold block while spamming non-stop heal+stamina return - > OPAF.

Calm down mate.

If dark deal has it's cast time removed it can also be changed at the same time to heal for X and restore Y stamina with Z stamina over time to balance the ability.

Right now it can't be used. With a cast time it's useless.

I've asked a few times now for a Class Rep to comment on what they think of what they got vs what they were expecting and am not receiving an answer

This annoys me. The Class rep meeting notes here It pretty clearly addresses the issues the Reps raise and what ZoS raise.

It's all right there, what the hell are you going on about?

essi2

Tasear wrote: »

Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect.

Summon Unstable Clannfear (morph): Decreased the cost of the special attack from this morph by approximately 33%

Bound Armor: Increased the bonus to block mitigation granted by this ability and its morphs to 36% from 20%.

Shield strength increased with resistances.

I stopped using Dark Exchange(Dark Deal) on my Sorc tank, Meditate is a far more useful ability for resource regen and self healing. Cast time being what really kills Dark Exchange and its morphs.

If it was Instant cast it might be worth slotting in order to get the Minor Prophecy group buff, but then in all likelihood you'd be missing out on the Psijic shield which with the resistance change is now even more useful.


The Sorc pets I've only used for tanking if I needed the health boost, the Clannfear change I don't think will change that for me.
Slight EDIT: I forgot about the Armour ability 5p req. So Armor Master is useless for what I want to do with my Sorc atm, The Clannfear might have made itself slightly more useful to me.

Bound Armor: Only used for the passive stamina boost, the duration on this ability is too much hassle for little gain, might have some situational uses.