Stop saying shield nerf will make healers more viable

AuraNebula

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vicarra wrote: »

I think it's easy to say that these changes are being done to make healers relevant again, but I suspect that this has a hell of a lot more to do with the fact that NBs cry about shield stacking in PVP.

Healers have never -really- not been relevant, but as others have said, if anything has made it possible to skip using healers in dungeon groups it's the one-shot mechanics that the combat team are using as a crutch to avoid having to think up any new and interesting combat mechanics. And of course, the ever-present power creep that makes it possible even for the right pug group to faceroll vet content simply by putting in an extra DD.

The one place where all the complaints about shields were coming from was PVP, and specifically, from people complaining about magsorcs shield stacking. Instead of fixing the fact that shields were stackable, or the fact that sorcs have few other class options to "manage" enemies beyond stacking shields - instead of that, it's just a blanket nerf that no one seems to be happy with, because apparently it's been forgotten by the combat team that sorcs are not the only ones who use shields.

If you want to make healers "relevant" again, then rework the resto skill line to include buffs and debuffs and not just heals, and bring more mechanics to boss fights that healers can actually do something about. HoTs to combat DoTs, burst heals to combat burst damage, roots and snares to help with positioning, a passive that reduces threat generated around the healer to encourage people to think about their positioning and....because I guess one-shot mechanics are here to stay - a passive that lets you rez people faster with a resto staff equipped.

Of course the complaints about shields came from PVP.

You wont ever hear Molag Kena or trial bosses coming to the forums to complain about how hard it is to kill players using damage shields.

But when you hear PVE players talk about how easy content is, that's the warning sign of incoming PVE nerfs. And there was plenty of "healers aren't necessary" talk to encourage ZOS to do something to make PVE content harder.

I'm with you dude. In end game pve you barely even see sorcs in the current sea of nightblades. You would maybe have one sorc dps or not even that and have a sorc healer instead. All this is going to do is completely remove sorcs from pve. I don't see how this will make it harder for healers at all.

Vicarra

VaranisArano wrote: »

Making Shields crittable probably would have been sufficient as a PVP nerf and wouldnt have impacted PVE at all.

Instead, ZOS went out of their way to nerf shields in PVE too.

It's pretty obvious by this point what classes the devs play, and in which content.

I predict Mage's Wrath will be next hit with the nerf stick due to all the crying from salty NBs about sorcs having an execute and using it. There are no complaints from PVE NBs though, they're all happy as Larry since they're top of the DPS pile by a long way. Don't need to complain about sorcs in PVE when no one will carry them in a group.

f047ys3v3n

When we first started adding shields to our builds in PVE it was not to replace healers. It was soon after the changes in 1.6 that did away with soft caps and allowed the amount of health we carried to be halved in favor of more dps. Since ZOS made DPS king pretty much everywhere this was done. Unfortunately, healers, who basically use HoT's in trials, were not fast enough to save people with so little health when they tanked so we started to carry shields to shield ourselves so that the healer would have some time to HoT us back. Since then, when it was found that 6 out of 8 classs / resource combinations pretty much couldn't do vMA when it came out for lack of heals, we have been given much better self heals. To add to that ZOS has spread out a lot of mechanics such that a healer really can't heal the team well with springs and combat prayer. DPS being king in virtually all ZOS's lazy fights it dosen't make sense to bring a healer that can't use his primary heals most of the time when you can have more DPS to kill adds that are way to tanky (they always are) or skip mechanics on poorly designed bosses (because you can skip most mechanics on most bosses with DPS). Shields has never really had much to do with not having healers. That is about fight design and low overall health.

I might add that we are not going to start having healers now because the fight designs haven't changed, we still have, and need low health, and everything is still dps dependent. People will get survivability by going to cheat engine (most endgame raiders already use and in PVP it is even more common) and by switching to stam for the greater armor ratings and better blocking ability. There still will be no healers. There is just going to be some stam sorcs and maybe a stam warden or two pretending to be a heals while being mostly a dps.

max_only

Thank Yffre for this thread. Keep it up top

Gilvoth

i Hate sorcerers, but i love killing them.

However, lol,
i do not agree with the 1 second delay on shield casting.
infact, if that 1 second delay on shield casting goes live then it will be a trickle down effecT.
eventually leading to alot of very serious problems with elderscrolls online and may even be fatal for sorcerers and and up being fatal for all classes.

philfal1234

Riptide wrote: »

I think its at least a move in the right direction. Be real here, as it currently stands why bring a stam dps to a trial vs a mag toon?

because stam dps has a higher dps ceiling and have plenty of survivability especially since trials require healers

Mr_Bear

The healers I run with regularly are wondering how THEY are going to stay alive without their shield.

max_only

Mr_Bear wrote: »

The healers I run with regularly are wondering how THEY are going to stay alive without their shield.

Same

Vixenator

I posted my 2 cents about this on the sorc rep. This is a terrible excuse that holds together about as well as dollarstore scotch tape. Having a healer in group means I DONT have to equip a shield. With few exceptions / situations in group content.

In minority of situations I may equip a shield. If the healer is incompetent I may equip a shield. Sometimes I equip a heal staff. Should we remove heal staff general so templars feel wanted too? Ridiculous.

Healers are not useless and they are appreciated by most.

LadyLethalla

For the shield stackers why not just make the cast of a second, different shield, negate the first one? That could solve PVP while leaving PVE alone.

And yes I still want my non-cast time shield for VMA because I have high ping AND worse reflexes than you young 'uns.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They should make mechanics that actually require healers. The game is designed around 1-shot mechanics right now that need to be avoided. Getting hit results in a death. You can't heal death. This is what makes healers useless.

/thread.

Dumb mechanics are the problem. Not shields. People didn't used to run shields in PvE. Until ZOS thought "hmmm lets just have random unblockable damage hit you for 10k a piece"

Steinschlag

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

SHIELD NERF WILL MAKE HEALERS MORE VIABLE AND PROMOTE GROUP PLAY

Dont think so

Katahdin

Danksta wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

I think its at least a move in the right direction. Be real here, as it currently stands why bring a stam dps to a trial vs a mag toon? It isn’t just healers, its that shields allow lots of mechanics to be shrugged off.

Here is an idea...dps and heals who no longer run with zero health added. Thats what most folks do now, right? 18.5 and good.

Might have to stack up some so folks can survive more burst in a pinch. Might have to rock Krags so you, in fact, heal death. Might have to watch closer for boss tells so you shield at the right moment rather than simply mindlessly spamming it in your rotation.

Shields have become such a crutch that its skewed all kinds of stuff. Its healthy to address it.

Personally I like the solution of making it cost more magicka per cast, same as streak. I think thats a more holistic solution that doesn’t cause as much angst. And I wish I had a seat at the planning table. But I’m glad its being addressed.

Ummm, people are stacking as much stam as they can fit in trials because they do more damage, and if survivability in trials on stam is an issue for you it's all about L2P.

Just curious, how many vCR and vAS have you run on a stam dps, specifically stam NB?

Drakkdjinn

Riptide wrote: »

Instakill mechanics are being overblown more than a little. Rather people’s patience to properly learn mechanics, utilize block, build with some health, etc have all been inhibited by the ease of mashing shields.

I’m not saying its not smart to do so, but really now. Which mechanics cannot be avoided by movement, blocked, etc? How many bosses do people straight out burn and ignore mechanics that punish an overfast burn by just shielding repeatedly and burning it? The new DLC dungeons a great example of that.

And its not like shields are going away, just not spammable.

Theres a reason lots of us made magsorcs to do vMA with. Simple rotation, sure - but shield spamming makes a lot of the mechanics trivial. Thats not truly healthy for the game.

Have an insightful.

carlos424

Riptide wrote: »

Here is an idea...dps and heals who no longer run with zero health added. Thats what most folks do now, right? 18.5 and good.

18.5? Ha ha maybe if you’re a petsorc and get health bonus from the pet (And thats still like 17.5 with maxed out food)

Try 16.5 with food, in most cases. Ya buddy, automatic one-shot. Only protection is shield, which only lasts a couple of hits. So you can increase shield duration to 10 minutes, freak it, an hour ...... makes no difference. Usually has to be recast in 6-7 seconds at least or .......... (back to previous paragraph) yep you guessed it .... one shot

WrathOfInnos

Riptide wrote: »

Instakill mechanics are being overblown more than a little. Rather people’s patience to properly learn mechanics, utilize block, build with some health, etc have all been inhibited by the ease of mashing shields.

I’m not saying its not smart to do so, but really now. Which mechanics cannot be avoided by movement, blocked, etc? How many bosses do people straight out burn and ignore mechanics that punish an overfast burn by just shielding repeatedly and burning it? The new DLC dungeons a great example of that.

And its not like shields are going away, just not spammable.

Theres a reason lots of us made magsorcs to do vMA with. Simple rotation, sure - but shield spamming makes a lot of the mechanics trivial. Thats not truly healthy for the game.

All of these statements are valid for normal trials and dungeons only. In anything vet a one-shot is a one-shot with or without shields. You’re not going to shield through a vCR flare out of group, or someone bar swapping with overload. Shields don’t even work on some newer mechanics, like the portal group oblivion damage.

Take vAS for example, no amount of understanding mechanics is going to save you from a Llothis cone on the entrance, during Olms jumping, while Felms bombs the group. DPS are not going to build 40k+ health to survive such stacking mechanics. Right now, spamming shields while blocking just might save you. With the change, shields will cast half as frequently AND force you to drop block.

Nobody wants to use shields in the current game. Every shield cast is a DPS loss. The game has been designed in such a way that shields are necessary for survival. This is a big reason why so few stamina are seen in the newest two trials. Now we will get to see few Magicka players in there as well. Nobody wants to run content where deaths and unfair and unavoidable, especially while pushing for achievements like Gryphon Heart and Immortal Redeemer.