Stop saying shield nerf will make healers more viable

philfal1234

If ZOS wanted to make healers more viable they should give them really good buffs that only come from the resto staff tree. That would make groups want to run with them. This isnt a complicated line of logic, if a playstyle isnt fun anymore add things to make it fun and viable dont make other playstyles less fun.

MLGProPlayer

They should make mechanics that actually require healers. The game is designed around 1-shot mechanics right now that need to be avoided. Getting hit results in a death. You can't heal death. This is what makes healers useless.

haelene

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They should make mechanics that actually require healers. The game is designed around 1-shot mechanics right now that need to be avoided. Getting hit results in a death. You can't heal death. This is what makes healers useless.

Agreed. Also the power creep is a problem. No need to heal if you kill everything super fast and don't get hit a lot.

philfal1234

also worth mentioning is that healers, like dps, run annulment on their bars...

D0PAMINE

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They should make mechanics that actually require healers. The game is designed around 1-shot mechanics right now that need to be avoided. Getting hit results in a death. You can't heal death. This is what makes healers useless.

I've been thinking about this very thing.

Kadoin

Okay.

"Nerfing shields will make healers more valuable...and 2+2=5" Is that better?

e1team

I am, as a healer, also very much reliant on my shields in some very awkward situations.

Jeremy

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They should make mechanics that actually require healers. The game is designed around 1-shot mechanics right now that need to be avoided. Getting hit results in a death. You can't heal death. This is what makes healers useless.

Good point.

All these instant death mechanics (and their DLC dungeons consistently keep getting worse and worse about this) make healing basically pointless anyway.

LordGavus

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They should make mechanics that actually require healers. The game is designed around 1-shot mechanics right now that need to be avoided. Getting hit results in a death. You can't heal death. This is what makes healers useless.

This is pretty much it.

Riptide

I think its at least a move in the right direction. Be real here, as it currently stands why bring a stam dps to a trial vs a mag toon? It isn’t just healers, its that shields allow lots of mechanics to be shrugged off.

Here is an idea...dps and heals who no longer run with zero health added. Thats what most folks do now, right? 18.5 and good.

Might have to stack up some so folks can survive more burst in a pinch. Might have to rock Krags so you, in fact, heal death. Might have to watch closer for boss tells so you shield at the right moment rather than simply mindlessly spamming it in your rotation.

Shields have become such a crutch that its skewed all kinds of stuff. Its healthy to address it.

Personally I like the solution of making it cost more magicka per cast, same as streak. I think thats a more holistic solution that doesn’t cause as much angst. And I wish I had a seat at the planning table. But I’m glad its being addressed.

Jeremy

Riptide wrote: »

I think its at least a move in the right direction. Be real here, as it currently stands why bring a stam dps to a trial vs a mag toon? It isn’t just healers, its that shields allow lots of mechanics to be shrugged off.

Here is an idea...dps and heals who no longer run with zero health added. Thats what most folks do now, right? 18.5 and good.

Might have to stack up some so folks can survive more burst in a pinch. Might have to rock Krags so you, in fact, heal death. Might have to watch closer for boss tells so you shield at the right moment rather than simply mindlessly spamming it in your rotation.

Shields have become such a crutch that its skewed all kinds of stuff. Its healthy to address it.

Personally I like the solution of making it cost more magicka per cast, same as streak. I think thats a more holistic solution that doesn’t cause as much angst. And I wish I had a seat at the planning table. But I’m glad its being addressed.

Maybe I'm missing something, but shields don't seem to keep people from dying in PvE when I do dungeons. DPS seem to drop like flies when something so much as looks at them wrong. A wear wolf pounces - dead DD. Even tanks are dropping like flies now. I was doing Moon Hunter keep the other night and I was worried I was going to run out of soul crystals I was raising him so much (and I had a lot).

The only way you are going make healing useful again is to revert back to the original and intended combat formula where damage can actually be countered by healing. This current development team for some strange reason thinks damage output should be able to easily overwhelm healing... and then they wonder why healing is useless? And then to add to the comedy they think adding a cast time to shields is going to fix that. It's not.

This is an overall problem with the game's general direction as it relates to healing vs damage and I've been complaining about it for a awhile now.

Numerikuu

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They should make mechanics that actually require healers. The game is designed around 1-shot mechanics right now that need to be avoided. Getting hit results in a death. You can't heal death. This is what makes healers useless.

Not much else to say really. This right here. Like I said ages ago when the first mention of shield nerfs was brought up to make healers 'more viable'...ain't got nothing to do with shields at all.

Cadbury

This is what confuses me about the whole shield nerf. I really don't see this bringing about a healer renaissance, with more groups bringing in healers over an extra DPS.

Riptide

Instakill mechanics are being overblown more than a little. Rather people’s patience to properly learn mechanics, utilize block, build with some health, etc have all been inhibited by the ease of mashing shields.

I’m not saying its not smart to do so, but really now. Which mechanics cannot be avoided by movement, blocked, etc? How many bosses do people straight out burn and ignore mechanics that punish an overfast burn by just shielding repeatedly and burning it? The new DLC dungeons a great example of that.

And its not like shields are going away, just not spammable.

Theres a reason lots of us made magsorcs to do vMA with. Simple rotation, sure - but shield spamming makes a lot of the mechanics trivial. Thats not truly healthy for the game.

KittehWinks

I've not understood the not viable argument for healers in 4-man content. As the healer, in a pre-made group, I know I can drop my HoT and then switch to my damage bar and help us get out of this dungeon faster and I'm able to keep most everyone alive as long as everyone follows mechanics - you can't heal stupid no matter how hard you try. But in all of this I've not once felt as if I wasn't needed as a healer just because I bring sets, buffs, and debuffs others don't have to bring.

VaranisArano

Just because we know that "damage shields make healers useless" is a threadbare justification doesn't mean that ZOS isn't going to use it to nerf damage shields.

DanteYoda

There are gonna be so many dead healers now..

olsborg

Shouldnt rly matter at the end of the day. You play a class if its fun to play, having a skill that important for any magsorc build with now a cast time, will make it frustrating to play, doesnt matter how many healers you have stuffed into your pocketses.

Danksta

Riptide wrote: »

I think its at least a move in the right direction. Be real here, as it currently stands why bring a stam dps to a trial vs a mag toon? It isn’t just healers, its that shields allow lots of mechanics to be shrugged off.

Here is an idea...dps and heals who no longer run with zero health added. Thats what most folks do now, right? 18.5 and good.

Might have to stack up some so folks can survive more burst in a pinch. Might have to rock Krags so you, in fact, heal death. Might have to watch closer for boss tells so you shield at the right moment rather than simply mindlessly spamming it in your rotation.

Shields have become such a crutch that its skewed all kinds of stuff. Its healthy to address it.

Personally I like the solution of making it cost more magicka per cast, same as streak. I think thats a more holistic solution that doesn’t cause as much angst. And I wish I had a seat at the planning table. But I’m glad its being addressed.

Ummm, people are stacking as much stam as they can fit in trials because they do more damage, and if survivability in trials on stam is an issue for you it's all about L2P.

ExcaliburESO

SHIELD NERF WILL MAKE HEALERS MORE VIABLE AND PROMOTE GROUP PLAY

Riptide

Ummm, people are stacking as much stam as they can fit in trials because they do more damage, and if survivability in trials on stam is an issue for you it's all about L2P.

When did I, oh, nevermind. Just wanted to be snarky I suspect. I ldo vet trials all the time, magblades pretty well the meta, and through the thread I’m taking a pro stam stance. But go on with your L2P self.

robpr

Steadfast Ward and Boneshield new meta!

CompM4s

Nerfing shields was only needed for pvp, but the stacking of shields not the cast time.

Vahrokh

Riptide wrote: »

Instakill mechanics are being overblown more than a little. Rather people’s patience to properly learn mechanics, utilize block, build with some health, etc have all been inhibited by the ease of mashing shields.

I’m not saying its not smart to do so, but really now. Which mechanics cannot be avoided by movement, blocked, etc? How many bosses do people straight out burn and ignore mechanics that punish an overfast burn by just shielding repeatedly and burning it? The new DLC dungeons a great example of that.

And its not like shields are going away, just not spammable.

Theres a reason lots of us made magsorcs to do vMA with. Simple rotation, sure - but shield spamming makes a lot of the mechanics trivial. Thats not truly healthy for the game.

if shield spamming had been the problem, they could just have added a cooldown or a stacking spell cost (similar to streak). But shield HAS to be instant, because you don't know when you get the sudden spike of out nowhere. This is especially true in trials and even more true in the last 2 trials.

Artim_X

Healers have always been useful when playing with randoms. I would love to see someone from the combat team queue up for some random vet dungeons on live as a healer and post their findings.

karekiz

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They should make mechanics that actually require healers. The game is designed around 1-shot mechanics right now that need to be avoided. Getting hit results in a death. You can't heal death. This is what makes healers useless.

More of the fact that tanks can literally heal themselves better than some healers.

*Edit: Skills like vigour/shield/Self heals would have to be gutted to make healers relevant imo. Tanks still take dmg during the encounter and so do DPS, it just doesn't really matter if the DPS next to you can basically cast a burst heal <Sorc pet heal>, or the Stam DPS can AoE heal HoT <Vigour> back to full including the tank.

Basically DPS/tanks can't heal which means you either have to kill it before it kills you which is possible, but a ton more difficult.

Essentially heal power would have to be introduced as a stat line. Heals do nothing unless you actually invest into healing, which would cut your Spell dmg severly.

Vicarra

I think it's easy to say that these changes are being done to make healers relevant again, but I suspect that this has a hell of a lot more to do with the fact that NBs cry about shield stacking in PVP.

Healers have never -really- not been relevant, but as others have said, if anything has made it possible to skip using healers in dungeon groups it's the one-shot mechanics that the combat team are using as a crutch to avoid having to think up any new and interesting combat mechanics. And of course, the ever-present power creep that makes it possible even for the right pug group to faceroll vet content simply by putting in an extra DD.

The one place where all the complaints about shields were coming from was PVP, and specifically, from people complaining about magsorcs shield stacking. Instead of fixing the fact that shields were stackable, or the fact that sorcs have few other class options to "manage" enemies beyond stacking shields - instead of that, it's just a blanket nerf that no one seems to be happy with, because apparently it's been forgotten by the combat team that sorcs are not the only ones who use shields.

If you want to make healers "relevant" again, then rework the resto skill line to include buffs and debuffs and not just heals, and bring more mechanics to boss fights that healers can actually do something about. HoTs to combat DoTs, burst heals to combat burst damage, roots and snares to help with positioning, a passive that reduces threat generated around the healer to encourage people to think about their positioning and....because I guess one-shot mechanics are here to stay - a passive that lets you rez people faster with a resto staff equipped.

VaranisArano

Vicarra wrote: »

I think it's easy to say that these changes are being done to make healers relevant again, but I suspect that this has a hell of a lot more to do with the fact that NBs cry about shield stacking in PVP.

Healers have never -really- not been relevant, but as others have said, if anything has made it possible to skip using healers in dungeon groups it's the one-shot mechanics that the combat team are using as a crutch to avoid having to think up any new and interesting combat mechanics. And of course, the ever-present power creep that makes it possible even for the right pug group to faceroll vet content simply by putting in an extra DD.

The one place where all the complaints about shields were coming from was PVP, and specifically, from people complaining about magsorcs shield stacking. Instead of fixing the fact that shields were stackable, or the fact that sorcs have few other class options to "manage" enemies beyond stacking shields - instead of that, it's just a blanket nerf that no one seems to be happy with, because apparently it's been forgotten by the combat team that sorcs are not the only ones who use shields.

If you want to make healers "relevant" again, then rework the resto skill line to include buffs and debuffs and not just heals, and bring more mechanics to boss fights that healers can actually do something about. HoTs to combat DoTs, burst heals to combat burst damage, roots and snares to help with positioning, a passive that reduces threat generated around the healer to encourage people to think about their positioning and....because I guess one-shot mechanics are here to stay - a passive that lets you rez people faster with a resto staff equipped.

Of course the complaints about shields came from PVP.

You wont ever hear Molag Kena or trial bosses coming to the forums to complain about how hard it is to kill players using damage shields.

But when you hear PVE players talk about how easy content is, that's the warning sign of incoming PVE nerfs. And there was plenty of "healers aren't necessary" talk to encourage ZOS to do something to make PVE content harder.

Salvas_Aren

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

SHIELD NERF WILL MAKE HEALERS MORE VIABLE AND PROMOTE GROUP PLAY

Shield nerf will make healers more dead on the ground and promote group disband.

Where is the dislike button?

Vicarra

VaranisArano wrote: »

Of course the complaints about shields came from PVP.

You wont ever hear Molag Kena or trial bosses coming to the forums to complain about how hard it is to kill players using damage shields.

But when you hear PVE players talk about how easy content is, that's the warning sign of incoming PVE nerfs. And there was plenty of "healers aren't necessary" talk to encourage ZOS to do something to make PVE content harder.

My point is that it's clearly a PVP-oriented nerf, which they think they've cleverly disguised as a PVE buff to healers so people don't shout at them.

AuraNebula

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vicarra wrote: »

I think it's easy to say that these changes are being done to make healers relevant again, but I suspect that this has a hell of a lot more to do with the fact that NBs cry about shield stacking in PVP.

Healers have never -really- not been relevant, but as others have said, if anything has made it possible to skip using healers in dungeon groups it's the one-shot mechanics that the combat team are using as a crutch to avoid having to think up any new and interesting combat mechanics. And of course, the ever-present power creep that makes it possible even for the right pug group to faceroll vet content simply by putting in an extra DD.

The one place where all the complaints about shields were coming from was PVP, and specifically, from people complaining about magsorcs shield stacking. Instead of fixing the fact that shields were stackable, or the fact that sorcs have few other class options to "manage" enemies beyond stacking shields - instead of that, it's just a blanket nerf that no one seems to be happy with, because apparently it's been forgotten by the combat team that sorcs are not the only ones who use shields.

If you want to make healers "relevant" again, then rework the resto skill line to include buffs and debuffs and not just heals, and bring more mechanics to boss fights that healers can actually do something about. HoTs to combat DoTs, burst heals to combat burst damage, roots and snares to help with positioning, a passive that reduces threat generated around the healer to encourage people to think about their positioning and....because I guess one-shot mechanics are here to stay - a passive that lets you rez people faster with a resto staff equipped.

Of course the complaints about shields came from PVP.

You wont ever hear Molag Kena or trial bosses coming to the forums to complain about how hard it is to kill players using damage shields.

But when you hear PVE players talk about how easy content is, that's the warning sign of incoming PVE nerfs. And there was plenty of "healers aren't necessary" talk to encourage ZOS to do something to make PVE content harder.

I'm with you dude. In end game pve you barely even see sorcs in the current sea of nightblades. You would maybe have one sorc dps or not even that and have a sorc healer instead. All this is going to do is completely remove sorcs from pve. I don't see how this will make it harder for healers at all.