Upcoming New and Imbalanced Cyrodiil Map Changes (Update 20/Murkmire)

Darkmage1337

Wizunas wrote: »

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

None of the above is as important in comparison to the integrity of the actual, equal/physical placement of PvP objectives on the Cyrodiil map itself. Which is what this thread is all about. The integrity and balance of the Cyrodiil map PvP objectives has been compromised because AD and DC both get 2 offensive, outward-facing Outposts; whereas EP only has 1.

Wizunas wrote: »

I agree 100% ! And speaking equal opportunity for all alliances, just observe tactical placement and distances between keeps and we can see which alliance has most advantage. Seriously? Where is that equal balance in this strategical placement? eh




Also i saw (others) comments claiming Lore as an obstacle or excuse for placing keeps strategically equal for everyone. Really? LOL How many join warzone for "Lore"? ...

If devs plan to renew and make changes to Cyrodiil Map including new additions, it should be done symmetrically to each alliance

You wrote your entire comment in the same paragraph where you quoted me. Only the first paragraph is my words. That is kinda confusing. Just saying. EDIT: Fixed that for you.

Anyways, your picture fails to take into account the 3-way symmetry of the map. The map is not at all 2-way symmetrical when split down the center, as you are showing, lol. So I don't understand the point. You have to view the symmetry as if you were walking around a circular table.
Also, you forgot to copy/paste the AD Castles over on top of the EP/DC ones.

Darkmage1337

technohic wrote: »

This has got to be as minor as the current terrain differences around keeps. Does someone want to go over those as well while we are at it and make them all flat?

There is a big difference of placing a Town where there is supposed to be an Outpost and an Outpost where there is supposed to be a town. These two objectives function very differently, game-play wise. Whereas terrain is just terrain.

EP's Chalman Keep is roughly 1/2 surrounded by mountains whereas DC's Fort Ash is roughly 1/2 surrounded by mountains whereas AD's Castle Alessia is 1/2 roughly surrounded by water. Both mountains and water are not play-able spaces, so that is balanced.
DC's Fort Rayles is in a "giant pit," with a moat of water; but, yet so is EP's Kingscrest Keep and AD's Castle Bloodmayne.
I could go on and on, but the terrain isn't the point.

The point is a player can solo-capture Cropsford in a matter of seconds whereas a player cannot solo-capture an Outpost in a matter of seconds. Terrain are not objectives. Outposts, Towns, and Keeps/Forts/Castles/Scrolls are.

Just because Cheydinhal has a massive wall (Terrain) surrounding it doesn't mean it should not be a capture-able Town.
Bruma has a massive wall (more Terrain) surrounding most of Bruma -- the west side with the Skyshard, the north-side below Fort Dragonclaw Farm, and the south and southwest-side, by the respawn area and the Merchant Flag -- all giant walls/terrain. Bruma is captureable, yet Cheydinhal is not.

PLUS, Vlastrus and Cropsford are both very close to each other, compared to Vlastrus/Bruma or Cropsford/Bruma.
Cyrodiil would be more balanced if it was Vlastrus/Bruma/Cheydinhal.
Vlastrus/Bruma/Cheydinhal practically makes an equilateral triangle.
And, let's be honest, everyone else has already said it: no one likes Cropsford...
Even the NPCs in Vlastrus talk about building a wall to keep out the bear, Gaping Maw, etc. Lol.

Wizunas

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

Wizunas wrote: »

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

None of the above is as important in comparison to the integrity of the actual, equal/physical placement of PvP objectives on the Cyrodiil map itself. Which is what this thread is all about. The integrity and balance of the Cyrodiil map PvP objectives has been compromised because AD and DC both get 2 offensive, outward-facing Outposts; whereas EP only has 1.

Wizunas wrote: »

I agree 100% ! And speaking equal opportunity for all alliances, just observe tactical placement and distances between keeps and we can see which alliance has most advantage. Seriously? Where is that equal balance in this strategical placement? eh




Also i saw (others) comments claiming Lore as an obstacle or excuse for placing keeps strategically equal for everyone. Really? LOL How many join warzone for "Lore"? ...

If devs plan to renew and make changes to Cyrodiil Map including new additions, it should be done symmetrically to each alliance

You wrote your entire comment in the same paragraph where you quoted me. Only the first paragraph is my words. That is kinda confusing. Just saying. EDIT: Fixed that for you.

Anyways, your picture fails to take into account the 3-way symmetry of the map. The map is not at all 2-way symmetrical when split down the center, as you are showing, lol. So I don't understand the point. You have to view the symmetry as if you were walking around a circular table.
Also, you forgot to copy/paste the AD Castles over on top of the EP/DC ones.

Sorry about the quote issue!
And yeah i know i didn't set all symmetries but its just too much to photoshop, mask, blend, etc. lol
I just wanted to point out the idea, i thought its not that difficult to realize what i mean, it's not exactly rocket science
The devs know exactly what's that about.

dave011

Derra wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

cannot wait to finally destroy Alessia bridge.

^ 100% this. I´m gonna siege that piece of ... down every day.

sorry to tell you this but you will have to stand in line and hope you don't get bombed:)

I like the changes very much might changes it from a zerg farm to a bit more strategy game.

The_1st_Elder

Cheydinal is too far away to be a captureable town for EP that is connected to drake.

Cheydinal would have to be connected via arrius or farragut if it was. Again this ruins the symmertry of the map. Therefore cheydinal will never become a captureable town.

Options below:

#1 create a whole new captureable town where EP new outpost currently is and move the outpost roughly where cropsford is. Cropsford now becomes non captureable.

#2 create a whole new captureable town in a similar location (between sej and drake, similar to where Bruma is with dragonclaw. Move The outpost roughly where cropsford it. Cropsford becomes non captureable.

#3 swap the outpost and cropsford.

#4 move the outpost (between sej and drake, similar to where Bruma is with dragonclaw. COULD BE A GOOD POSSIBILITY. (Keep cropsford as the captureable town)

#5 crops and the outpost both become offensive facing towards AD. ANOTHER GOOD POSSIBILTY

Sacredx

Anyway, good luck on getting the map changed. I don't think it will make any difference.

Ranger209

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Towns or outposts, as to which is better is all subjective.

Better? I think all the towns are better looking than any outposts. That is subjective.Opinion. Debatable.

More defensible? An outpost is by a long shot. That is objective. Fact. Indisputable.

Some people that post on these forums seem to not know the difference or what is apropos when replying to a given thread. (General observation)

Exactly. This is the major talking point.
AD and DC both get 2 offensive, outward-facing Outposts, which required Siege to capture them.
EP gets Sejanus Outpost and the Cropsford TOWN.
Towns can be flipped single-handedly by a solo player in literally a minute or two. The same cannot be said about Outposts.
This fact is the main discussion of the entire thread; yet some people continue to bring up faction politics and faction population/campaign/platform/server-specific scoreboards, etc. Those do not matter and have zero place in this thread's discussion.

I know exactly what you mean. What I don't know yet is if that is an advantage or disadvantage for EP. A town is easier to lose but easier to take back so I don't which way that works really,

Tommy_The_Gun

Ranger209 wrote: »

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Towns or outposts, as to which is better is all subjective.

Better? I think all the towns are better looking than any outposts. That is subjective.Opinion. Debatable.

More defensible? An outpost is by a long shot. That is objective. Fact. Indisputable.

Some people that post on these forums seem to not know the difference or what is apropos when replying to a given thread. (General observation)

Exactly. This is the major talking point.
AD and DC both get 2 offensive, outward-facing Outposts, which required Siege to capture them.
EP gets Sejanus Outpost and the Cropsford TOWN.
Towns can be flipped single-handedly by a solo player in literally a minute or two. The same cannot be said about Outposts.
This fact is the main discussion of the entire thread; yet some people continue to bring up faction politics and faction population/campaign/platform/server-specific scoreboards, etc. Those do not matter and have zero place in this thread's discussion.

I know exactly what you mean. What I don't know yet is if that is an advantage or disadvantage for EP. A town is easier to lose but easier to take back so I don't which way that works really,

It is a disadvantage to EP.

1. The new outpost is deep inside EP territory and it serves more like a "anchor point" for AD.
The distance from this outpost to Farragut, Arrius and Blue Road Keep is almost the same. In Case of lets say EP defending their last EMP keep at Blue Road Keep or AD having their scroll stolen at Farragut or Kingscrest keep - it is a perfect way to Back-door EP. Also - it is an Outpost so it takes longer to Capture than a town.
2. If EP has Drakelowe keep... why you would sit in this new outpost ? It will be empty 99% of time. And in case of Draklowe beeing US / Tagged - you cant even port there as this new outpost is only connected to Draklowe.
3. The only "good" aspect is that it can serve as a re-span point. But it works both ways (enemy will be able to re-spawn there too.

Imho - this new EP outpost will serve more in favour of the AD or DC farming groups. Looking at the whole map - EP has another DC new outpost near Kingscrest keep (so technically it will be also a good opportunity for DC faction to back door EP) - but at least there are gates there between new DC outpost & Kingscrest keep.

I think ZOS should either swap Cropsford & this new outpost places or just change transitus shrine connection (connect new outpost to Farragut keep instead of Drakelowe). Also I think that those new transitus shrine connection (outpost & towns) should have a faction lock (the same as we have already between some keeps / castles / forts so only their "home" faction can use those connections).

Anrose

I wonder if the Germans cried that it wasn’t fair that Russia was so defensible when they tried to invade in the winter...

Everyone has an advantage somewhere. The fun in games like this is finding the enemy’s weakness and exploiting it while identifying your own weakness and fortifying it.

Instead of complaining that “it’s not fair” when it’s actually pretty close to being fair is ridiculous. Spend that time strategizing and figuring out how to win instead of imploring ZOS to make it easier. We’ve been asking for map changes for years, and now that we get one, we’re crying about it.

DisgracefulMind

All I see is a new outpost that's going to make it easier for DC to get their morale boost at Kingscrest (x

Tommy_The_Gun

Anrose wrote: »

I wonder if the Germans cried that it wasn’t fair that Russia was so defensible when they tried to invade in the winter...

If cyro was a "Real" War all spies & traitors would be executed on sight & re-loging (switching teams) would be impossible... just saying.

Anrose

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

I wonder if the Germans cried that it wasn’t fair that Russia was so defensible when they tried to invade in the winter...

If cyro was a "Real" War all spies & traitors would be executed on sight & re-loging (switching teams) would be impossible... just saying.

Every time someone tries to bring logic to this forum some faction RPer comes along to try to debunk it.

ku5h

Anrose wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

I wonder if the Germans cried that it wasn’t fair that Russia was so defensible when they tried to invade in the winter...

If cyro was a "Real" War all spies & traitors would be executed on sight & re-loging (switching teams) would be impossible... just saying.

Every time someone tries to bring logic to this forum some faction RPer comes along to try to debunk it.

Well, bringing RL logic into fantasy setting where literally anything can happen is not very logical.

NBrookus

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

All I see is a new outpost that's going to make it easier for DC to get their morale boost at Kingscrest (x

I have a feeling EP will be licking the front door of BM regularly instead of Alessia.

Tommy_The_Gun

NBrookus wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

All I see is a new outpost that's going to make it easier for DC to get their morale boost at Kingscrest (x

I have a feeling EP will be licking the front door of BM regularly instead of Alessia.

Ye, but all you have to do to stop that is to capture Cropsford. You don't need to deal with an Outpost. Or you can just destroy 2 bridges & leave only Alessia - Sejanus bridge. If they don't change it you should feel lucky.

The point is (as some one said before):

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

AD and DC both get 2 offensive, outward-facing Outposts, which required Siege to capture them.
EP gets Sejanus Outpost and the Cropsford TOWN.
Towns can be flipped single-handedly by a solo player in literally a minute or two. The same cannot be said about Outposts.
This fact is the main discussion of the entire thread; yet some people continue to bring up faction politics and faction population/campaign/platform/server-specific scoreboards, etc. Those do not matter and have zero place in this thread's discussion.

Imho - we should put aside certain campaigns and factions and look at it in "bigger picture". Some people here say that EP wins constantly... so it is a good change. Others will say that EP loses constantly (it is a matter of campaign & server NA / EU). We all look at this map from our "home" alliance perspective. And this is a mistake as we will never agree on anything here.

The problem is that Faction "X" gets 2 Outpost + 3 gates; Faction "Y" gets 2 Outpost + 3 gates and Faction "Z" gets 1 Outpost, 1 Town and 3 bridges. So Faction "Z" is in clear disadvantage as Towns can be captured solo & without sieges. The same can not be told about Outposts. That is the main concern of this thread.

_Ahala_

They should honestly just wall the towns to make them more easily defendable at this point

RinaldoGandolphi

Still no performance fixes, why am I not surprised.....

Nermy

NBrookus wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

All I see is a new outpost that's going to make it easier for DC to get their morale boost at Kingscrest (x

I have a feeling EP will be licking the front door of BM regularly instead of Alessia.

You saying EP are door lickers? That's AD, everyone knows that...

DeadlyRecluse

It's certainly asymmetrical, but not necessarily unfair.

People always whined about the towns being unfair to AD (when there were only 3 of them), but it really didn't make that big of a difference.

I'd almost argue the bigger issue is that the northern objective cluster of Bruma, new outpost, Bleaks, and Dragonclaw is too close together to really be differentiated. It'll be a mess up there.

turlisley

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

It's certainly asymmetrical, but not necessarily unfair.

People always whined about the towns being unfair to AD (when there were only 3 of them), but it really didn't make that big of a difference.

I'd almost argue the bigger issue is that the northern objective cluster of Bruma, new outpost, Bleaks, and Dragonclaw is too close together to really be differentiated. It'll be a mess up there.

There have always only ever been capturable 3 Towns, so how would it have ever been unfair to AD? AD has Vlastrus in its pocket to quickly get to: Castle Brindle, Castle Roebeck, Castle Faregyl, Castle Blackboot, and Nikel Outpost.
DC's Bruma is only good for quickly getting to: Fort Dragonclaw, Fort Aleswell, and Bleaker's Outpost, by comparison. That's 3 objectives, versus 5.

DC has no capturable PvP objective in its pocket-area, whereas AD gets Vlastrus and EP gets that new Outpost.
The top-left / northwest side of the Cyrodiil map (between Fort Warden and Fort Dragonclaw/Bruma) is virtually an empty wasteland, whereas every other quadrant on the map has at least some kind of objective to capture.

Galarthor

Enkil wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Well given that AD had to live with 2 towns close to it's key keeps, while DC and EP were pretty much not threatened by the towns, I say: "Suck it up!"

How short-sighted. When AD is going on offense and wants to make inroads into EP territory, AD would be the ones benefiting from having an Outpost where Crops is instead of of easily flagged/retaken town. Balance is Balance.

It would require a little more work on the devs part to move the 3 flags and NPCs to Cheydinhal, but it needs to be done to make sure new changes are balanced in a PvP landscape. There have been minimal changes to Cyro since launch so it will be great to have some fresh additions, but if we've waited this long, we can wait a little longer for it to be done properly and not rushed.

I was refering to the current state, where AD is and has been at a disadvantage for a long time now. Funny how none of you EP players were calling for replacing Cropsford with Cheydinhal then ....

And if replacing Crops with an Outpost was so beneficial to AD, you wouldn't see all the EPs complaining about the current plans. The current plans are definitely more advantagous than what you propose. The better defendable outpost is deeper in the red territory than the undefendable town. Which means AD can hold out longer when on the offensive / carrying a scroll.

Enkil

Galarthor wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Well given that AD had to live with 2 towns close to it's key keeps, while DC and EP were pretty much not threatened by the towns, I say: "Suck it up!"

How short-sighted. When AD is going on offense and wants to make inroads into EP territory, AD would be the ones benefiting from having an Outpost where Crops is instead of of easily flagged/retaken town. Balance is Balance.

It would require a little more work on the devs part to move the 3 flags and NPCs to Cheydinhal, but it needs to be done to make sure new changes are balanced in a PvP landscape. There have been minimal changes to Cyro since launch so it will be great to have some fresh additions, but if we've waited this long, we can wait a little longer for it to be done properly and not rushed.

I was refering to the current state, where AD is and has been at a disadvantage for a long time now. Funny how none of you EP players were calling for replacing Cropsford with Cheydinhal then ....

And if replacing Crops with an Outpost was so beneficial to AD, you wouldn't see all the EPs complaining about the current plans. The current plans are definitely more advantagous than what you propose. The better defendable outpost is deeper in the red territory than the undefendable town. Which means AD can hold out longer when on the offensive / carrying a scroll.

Incorrect assumption and you continue to comment on the changes in a biased manner from AD player perspective only.

I quit the game within 1 year from launch, before the towns could be captured, and just came back this April. Had I been around, I would have advocated for the towns to be balanced and symmetrical then as remaining objective is habit for me (required in my profession). Bias undermines any argument.

p.s. My first/main toon is AD

Galarthor

So ... you haven't suffered from the current imbalance of the town placements?

The way I see it, the suggested outpost positions are not that imbalanced. They may provide a slight advantage to AD when fighting against EP. But given that EP has been exploiting the towns against AD now for ages means they have no right to complain about it. It's a form of redress. Practice what you preach!

Apache_Kid

The changes are good because it addresses this long outstanding issue of AD having two towns that are difficult to defend so close to their home territory and keeps. The best move would've been to simply move Cropsford further north but I guess this is just a more convoluted way of taking care of the issue.

TequilaFire

Galarthor wrote: »

So ... you haven't suffered from the current imbalance of the town placements?

The way I see it, the suggested outpost positions are not that imbalanced. They may provide a slight advantage to AD when fighting against EP. But given that EP has been exploiting the towns against AD now for ages means they have no right to complain about it. It's a form of redress. Practice what you preach!

Hmm, maybe on your platform but on PS4 NA Vivec it is AD who uses Cropsford to prep for attacking and holding Drakelowe for easy access to EP back keeps. Maybe your AD generals aren't as smart.

UppGRAYxDD

Ohhh Lordy, I can see the groups now siegeing the bridge till 2% left and destroying it just as a Zerg crosses....

Galarthor

TequilaFire wrote: »

Hmm, maybe on your platform but on PS4 NA Vivec it is AD who uses Cropsford to prep for attacking and holding Drakelowe for easy access to EP back keeps. Maybe your AD generals aren't as smart.

Yeah ... because Drakelowe is as crucial as Fare, Bloodmayne, and Blackboot are.
Totally the same thing.

SugaComa

Think you're missing the point .. the position of the town and out posts are done to bring blanace where currently there is none ...

Cuthceol

Will players be able to gap close through broken mile gates?

TequilaFire

Galarthor wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Hmm, maybe on your platform but on PS4 NA Vivec it is AD who uses Cropsford to prep for attacking and holding Drakelowe for easy access to EP back keeps. Maybe your AD generals aren't as smart.

Yeah ... because Drakelowe is as crucial as Fare, Bloodmayne, and Blackboot are.
Totally the same thing.

Drakelowe is a home keep and an AP boost keep.now. And AD having it gives them faster access to Farragut, Arrius and Kingscrest. It is also key to transit just like AD Brindle if Fare goes down.
So yes live and learn, totally the same thing.