Shields Do Not Make Healers Useless and Why They Should Not Be Nerfed

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Agree. People need to stop the nerf train. Shields are fine as they are. OP is spot on target.

Tryxus

As a healer, I'm actually glad that Magicka builds have access to strong shields. Makes my job easier.

The real issues are:

- Class design: every class has access to good self-healing + healing and tanking skills, all which increase their survivability while still being able to output sufficient DPS. Main reason why healers aren't needed, except for trials.
- CP system: players are able to boost their healing and survivability here as well. Time to stop raising the cap every update.

BuddyAces

Numerikuu wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

So the issue is actually pve. For various reasons a strong subset of healers have felt they aren't needed in content. Then even then players themselves don't find themselves needing healers. Sure the status quo still has healers participating in content, but number expressed concern in game , in discord and in forums and they aren't feeling needed for content.

Such statements are

"best score runs are without a healer in vDSA"
" I have to ask people to take as a healer for pledges"
" I feel my healers are secondary not primary"
" What do I need combat prayer with all nightblades"

Is changing shields the right call? That is for combat team to decide. My personal thoughts is issue will take time to resolve and there are many active healing play styles to account for in such changes. I think it's best to discuss why healers aren't needed so different changes might come about that is more satisfactory for solution for everyone. But my apologizes for the worries the players feel about "potential changes". We will do our best to convey such concerns as your class representatives.

a strong subset of healers have felt they aren't needed in content

Care to elaborate a little? Are these healers part of a pre-made group of friends who have been running together for a long time? Do they coordinate via VoIP? What CP levels are they and their group? What content is it that they don't feel needed in? How many times already have they done said content? And so on. There are many factors at play here.

"best score runs are without a healer in vDSA"

"best score run" would mean its a group who have done vDSA 5769878934564367 times and know it in and out. Of course they'd get the best score run without a healer. That has absolutely nothing to do with healers. If you do anything enough times to know it in and out of course it will become easy. The fault lies with the level and mechanic design of that place, not with the class.

" I have to ask people to take as a healer for pledges"

So, once again, this sounds like the healer is a part of a dungeon/trial guild of people/friends that have run the content 5489375938475 times, and know said content inside and out. Same thing once again. The problem lies with the content and mechanic design. If everything can be bulldozed through with sheer dps, that's not the healers fault.

" I feel my healers are secondary not primary"

And once again, for the same reasons as above.

" What do I need combat prayer with all nightblades"

Well... that frees up a skill slot for you then if your premade group is all nightblades. Throw in a dps skill and dps with them or something? Maybe some other debuff skill? /shrug

Is changing shields the right call?

No.

I think it's best to discuss why healers aren't needed so different changes might come about that is more satisfactory for solution for everyone

Agreed. However skill/class balance isn't the only thing that need to be looked at. The CP system desperately needs to be looked at, along with level/mechanic design. Older content also desperately needs an overhaul.

In the end however it's important to remember that not everyone who plays this game runs in guilds or groups of friends/players who have run the same content countless times. Changes like these need to be thought through thoroughly. Throwing in a blind nerf or 'fix' in the hopes it will do something to improve things for the minority, who have done said content 593475983475 times, will only negatively affect other areas of the game along with those who play differently, or haven't done said content 593475983475 times.

Outside of hm dlc dungeons, I as a stam toon (not on my magblade), only need a tank to get aggro on the bosses. I don't need heals in any PUG group. I could PUG vdsa at this point without a healer. Situational awareness and self healing is all that's needed.

AuraNebula

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.read.

Such statements are

"best score runs are without a healer in vDSA"
" I have to ask people to take as a healer for pledges"
" I feel my healers are secondary not primary"
" What do I need combat prayer with all nightblades"

I'm sorry, but in those statements I don't see anything about shields.
If combat prayer isn't needed because of Nightblades, then how is that about shields?
Sounds like it's more because of all the healing a Nightblades can put out, not because of a Sorc shield. Or even harness.

It sounds like nightblades need to be balanced rather than continuing this attack on sorcs. In trials you're lucky if you get the one spot allocated for sorcs in this Stamnia/Magblade dominated player base that's going on.

RedRook

Tryxus wrote: »

As a healer, I'm actually glad that Magicka builds have access to strong shields. Makes my job easier.

The real issues are:

- Class design: every class has access to good self-healing + healing and tanking skills, all which increase their survivability while still being able to output sufficient DPS. Main reason why healers aren't needed, except for trials.
- CP system: players are able to boost their healing and survivability here as well. Time to stop raising the cap every update.

Past time. Long past time. Or add some more stars, lord knows we could use some interesting variety (and some either/or instead of plenty of points to invest in everything) in that system.

karekiz

Well guys there is an alternative. Mobs beat the Crap out of the tank so hard they require a healer and can't self sustain. Granted if you go down that road tanks will shift out of debuff and more into tanky sets to try and compensate. Think Vet HRC cut attack harsh. Or even nerf tanks self healing.

I don't think DPS shields are the issue, the issue is that tanks can basically take the role of the healer themselves. Tank / 3 DPS exists for a reason. DPS still get the crap kicked out of them by heavy attacks, and shields don't really counter that. The fact a tank doesn't need a healer to keep him alive is the issue.

NyassaV

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

Perhaps give healers more ways to increase a group's mitigation? Either a % mit or a resistance buff

six2fall

Shields no but shields plus self heals means we can usually run a tank & 3 dps

usmguy1234

Mephisto939 wrote: »

This thread is like a Sorc salt mine. Let's be honest...Shields have always been OP. Sorcs have always been OP because of shields. Shield stacking has always been a problem. Balancing shields is long overdue,

>Sorcs be crying
>Starts crying about shields

I don't even...

code65536

karekiz wrote: »

Well guys there is an alternative. Mobs beat the Crap out of the tank so hard they require a healer and can't self sustain. Granted if you go down that road tanks will shift out of debuff and more into tanky sets to try and compensate. Think Vet HRC cut attack harsh. Or even nerf tanks self healing.

I don't think DPS shields are the issue, the issue is that tanks can basically take the role of the healer themselves. Tank / 3 DPS exists for a reason. DPS still get the crap kicked out of them by heavy attacks, and shields don't really counter that. The fact a tank doesn't need a healer to keep him alive is the issue.

If you have a competent tank, yes they can. But from my experiences PUGing, most tanks don't fall into that category.

The whole "let's go without a healer" thing is, I think, mostly limited to the endgame crowd.

Mephisto939

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Mephisto939 wrote: »

This thread is like a Sorc salt mine. Let's be honest...Shields have always been OP. Sorcs have always been OP because of shields. Shield stacking has always been a problem. Balancing shields is long overdue,

>Sorcs be crying
>Starts crying about shields

I don't even...

I am not crying. I use shields on my magicka characters and will be adversely affected too. Just being real unlike most of the other people on this thread.

DuskMarine

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

One thing from the newest Class Rep notes that has been really bothering me. The fact that some people think that shields make healers seem useless. That is FAR from the truth.

I assume this is based on pve, where magicka dps are required to use shields to negate damage. Just because magicka dps can survive various mechanics doesn't make the shields too strong. They still heavily rely healers to keep them up in many situations. All trials have mechanics where everyone, not just the magicka dps, have to stay by the healers to stay alive. On another note, I have been told by healers that they appreciate magicka dps being proactive about their shields, as it eases the workload on them. There are too many points where they have to focus their heals in certain parts of the trial or on certain people. Shields help keep the magicka dps from dying all the time. Not to mention the many one-shot mechanics soft light armor dps cannot survive without shields. Take vAS for example. A lot of mechanics there hit hard. They can't be all avoided. Lothis's poison conal, Lightning, Gust of Steam, you name it. Magicka dps there need their shields to stay alive. Healers can't be up in their case when they have to kite Felms or heal the main tank constantly getting b*tch-slapped by Olms.

Also progression groups and people learning trials and how to survive the mechanics better. A lot of them use shields to keep them up while learning to get better at the mechanics. Only top-tier, experienced dps can survive the mechanics without glancing at their shield. If they even have one slotted.

Shields are also a major part in pvp and solo play. Many magicka players in pvp use shields to keep them from dying all the time. It offers damage mitigation without having to rely on heavy armor or impen. For solo play, overland stuff and especially veteran Maelstrom Arena, shields are extremely important. Someone on a magicka builds and is running vMA needs shields to avoid getting dunked by mechanics that would nuke them in seconds.

Healers are still needed in trials and stuff. There is no getting around that healers are important. But nerfing shields won't make their jobs any easier or more rewarding. DPS would be dying more to mechanics they could survive, progression groups would have hell getting past mechanics. and pvp and solo players would suffer.

DO NOT TOUCH SHIELDS.

to an extent they do make healers useless 100%. ive seen people tank mechanics in pve with a shield and take no health damage at all. even watching people dueling sorcs they get down to 20% health pop a shield and boom they have another 20-30k health you have to chew through while they regain their health bars. so yea it is a bit of a issue. they need a bit of incremental change maybe decrease the maximum but who knows whats gonna happen.

Haashhtaag

Mephisto939 wrote: »

This thread is like a Sorc salt mine. Let's be honest...Shields have always been OP. Sorcs have always been OP because of shields. Shield stacking has always been a problem. Balancing shields is long overdue,

Dumb post. Sorcs don’t have the healing like magDKs, magblades, or templars. So yes they should have strong shields to help them. Most sorcs run around 9-11k resistances and 9-10k stam. Do you expect them to hold block the entire or dodge roll endlessly to avoid damage? What do you offer for the class as defense? Because solo sorcs shields get shredded. Are you for forcing people to zerg?

WrathOfInnos

I strongly disagree with the idea to make shields less effective in order to make healers necessary. Healers add a lot to groups already, assuming they are willing to bring buffs and debuffs instead of wanting to just heal.

If it was changed to where DPS could not self sustain I think the community would become a lot more toxic toward unskilled healers. “Blame he healer” would ha e a whole new meaning if healers were required to survive anything. Currently it’s easy enough to carry a new or low level healer through dungeons, so actual healing is low pressure, and healers are judged more on group support.

Tasear wrote: »

" What do I need combat prayer with all nightblades"

@Tasear I agree with this point. One of the best buffs a healer brings should not be meaningless for one (most common) class. Either the NB skill or the combat prayer should be made a unique buff so that even nightblades want healers around. Maybe Combat prayer could be changed to something like Major Berserk for 2-3s (would this be too powerful?).

Moloch1514

@Tasear is it true, as per what @NightbladeMechanics said in @Mureel's thread, that this was coming from @ZOS_Wrobel himself? Very depressing if that is the case.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Finviuswe

Nerfing shields because of healing is just such a ridiculous, ludicrous, inconceivable notion. I play stam and I am firmly against this.

Why are we actively working to make the game worse every patch.

idk

I have to agree that I found it odd the class reps would make a statement like that about shields.

I’ve never heard of a healer say they felt useless in challenging content even when all the party had shields. I would figure some of those class experts are experienced raiders and at least one is an end game raid healer.

Additionally, Zos has chosen to make content theee last couple years that required members of the party to separate from the group and healers while still being exposed to damage. Shields are a big part of the survivability in a game that has fast passed mechanics requiring skilled play which includes the strategic use of shields.

Further, It is beholden on Zos to use caution when considering any nerf to the shields in their current state. It would, without a doubt, decrease the number of groups and players able to clear the challenging content as well as throw off the balance becltween stam ans magicka in both PvE ans PvP.

LadyNalcarya

FakeFox wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

As someone who plays as a healer for around four years now, I absolutely don't get why healers should feel unimportant or weak. The only thing I understand is that the strength of defile in PvP makes it very hard for healers. But especially in PvE the impact of healers on group performance is tremendous. The Healers doing their job well gains a trial group more DPS then any single DD ever could.
DDs having their own defences does absolutely not undermine my role as a healer. In fact it even helps me by freeing up time I can use for doing other things. There really is nothing worse then not being able to properly play my role because DDs performing jobs outside the group are not using their own defences.
It also enables healers to perform special roles like vAS or vCR kiter, which are a lot of fun in my opinion.

It's interesting to see how different players can be.
The "kiting duty" thing made me quit raiding after getting my vAS hm because I felt useless, powerless (all those training attempts when I was killed by an enraged miniboss!), and it was quite boring.

I fully understand that not everybody likes those roles. But why would you feel useless? You are basically one of the most important players of the group and doing multiple roles(kiting, healing, buffing, debuffing) at once and if you fail the run is pretty much screwed.

Yeah, but kiting and stuff is pretty much taken for granted in this situation, and no amount of kiting can prevent someone from pulling an awesome "360 degree blast" trick or forgetting about Felms so he enrages and kills everyone. Also I was kiting in front of the boss, and seeing people dying out of my range was getting on my nerves.

Mephisto939

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Mephisto939 wrote: »

This thread is like a Sorc salt mine. Let's be honest...Shields have always been OP. Sorcs have always been OP because of shields. Shield stacking has always been a problem. Balancing shields is long overdue,

Dumb post. Sorcs don’t have the healing like magDKs, magblades, or templars. So yes they should have strong shields to help them. Most sorcs run around 9-11k resistances and 9-10k stam. Do you expect them to hold block the entire or dodge roll endlessly to avoid damage? What do you offer for the class as defense? Because solo sorcs shields get shredded. Are you for forcing people to zerg?

Umm..the twilight. Sure you can say it's not as good as a templar heal, but I could just as easily say templars don't have the AoEs of Sorcs. And what is preventing Sorcs from running a resto in the back bar? Shields are OP and always have been. No one is saying take away shields, but they have always been over-performing/

FrancisCrawford

ak_pvp wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

As your class representative, I am listening to the concerns that present themselves in this thread.

I hope this is not another one of those situations where something is nerfed that hurts us PvErs because folks in PvP are still complaining about shields.

In difficult PvE content, I need my shield on my magicka characters. In certain situations, I even use harness magicka on my healers. And my husband, who mains a magsorc with pets, always has his sorc shield equipped, in part to protect his pets.

Actually, its the opposite. Healers in PvE feel useless in some content because a DPS can just shield through it and passively heal, whilst adding more DPS, and more DPS means less engagement needed and thus less healing need. This is marginally true in the way that harness is basically free to use when hit with magic abilities. (a lot)

As for my thoughts, they don't need nerfing. They do however need some form of soft counter and then buffing, so you can counter it but then they become stronger for OW, where they melt.
I won't be sad to see them go though, then people would know what block/roll feels like being nerfed every patch.

Well, then those healers are just sad that they didn't play as well as they could have. If you don't have anything better to do, do damage. If you don't have that option on your skillbars, then you didn't bring the best build you could have for that content.

SilverWF

If they care about healers, then they need to reduce self-healing that every DD has

Shields affect only tank role, not healer.

Why it's not obvious?

FrancisCrawford

Mephisto939 wrote: »

This thread is like a Sorc salt mine. Let's be honest...Shields have always been OP. Sorcs have always been OP because of shields. Shield stacking has always been a problem. Balancing shields is long overdue,

How do shields, in your opinion, make PvE sorcerers OP? Are they the reason that sorcerers are preferred for DPS in trials? For healing? For tanking?

MLGProPlayer

Mephisto939 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

To me the difference being magic character and stamina characters are the shields. Magic gets shields that can stop the damage thus less heals and stamina eats the damage and has to use vigor to stay alive. To me shields are too much compared to stamina players who have no shield.

Generally when I play a magic character in groups content (outside of HM and trials) I don't need heals because of the shield and when I play stamina I need some heals form the healer because vigor is like 10k over 5 seconds and shields are harness and ward are 10k with the press of a button.

- Stamina characters can block damage.
- Stamina characters can dodge damage.
- Stamina characters have evasion.

- Magicka characters only have shields.

Yes, shields are the best damage mitigation method, but without them, magicka characters have exactly zero ways of mitigating damage.

Wut? Since when can only stamina characters block and roll dodge? Maybe if everyone wasn't trying to build meta-Sorc glass canons this wouldn't be an issue. You don't need to dump all 60 pts into magicka, and the green tree has reduce cost for tumble and blocking.

You won't do enough damage to complete any content if you put points into stamina and magicka. Damage scales with max resource in this game, in case you didn't know.

FrancisCrawford

Starlock wrote: »

Shields are sometimes a reason why my healer feels unneeded in 4 person dungeons, but I wouldn’t say it is the main one. The main one is feeling like I am not trusted to do my job at all when that stamina character pops a vigor or that sorc pops matriarch heal. In fairnss, I am typically queing for a random group for dungeons. Damage dealers will frequently slot heals because fake healers are a thing. Players will slot their own heals precisely so they don’t have to rely on a (potentially fake) healer to stay alive.

I don’t think there is a solution to this that won’t have near catastrophic impacts on other areas of the game. It would be stupid to get rid of shields, and it would be stupid to ban damage dealers from slotting heals, and it would be stupid to remove heals from damage abilities. I’m fine feeling not needed in some of the random groups I get. There are many more groups where I am needed. Non-competitive gamers who don’t min-max are kept alive by my healer. I’m good with things how they are.

I'm sure you've also had my common experience in PUG healing, which is to find a group so weak that the healer does 40%+ of group DPS personally, in addition to casting Rapid Regeneration, wearing SPC, doing any emergency heals that are needed, and so on.

FrancisCrawford

Who exactly is suffering as a healer from shields?

• Warden healers' weakness is burst heals. If there's something wrong with their lives, it isn't shields, perhaps unless they feel other players' shields are depriving them of the chance to be Healing Ward Heroes.
• Ditto nightblades.
• DK healers have many problems; shields can't be high on their list.
• No magicka sorcerer, healer or otherwise, should dislike shields.

So is it templars? Is it really anybody?

Also -- I don't understand why people would object to the 3 DD/everybody is a healer scenario anyway.

1. When @DarcyMardin and I duo, each of us takes responsibility for healing the other. What's wrong with that? And by the way, I almost always bring a class with a burst heal, usually a pet sorcerer.

2. I'm pretty sure that even in a 3 DD group, somebody should be wearing SPC or Olorime; Major Courage is just that good. Nightblades and templars are the two obvious candidates.

3. Some spec or other may be best of all, but I'm pretty sure that if templars aren't strong in a 3 DD group, they could be with some minor rebalancing. Shards probably contributes more to group DPS than a harder-hitting skill, as long as the synergy lands within a DD's reach. Purifying Light hits hard whenever teammates are good at damage too. Channeled Focus gives big sustain numbers in theory, and has recently been changed so that theory should match reality; it has a nice secondary benefit as well. Reflective Light is probably the top magicka spammable for trash fights (where by "spammable" I mean that you routinely recast it well before the DoT runs out). There's a good base to build on there.

erlewine

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

2. I'm pretty sure that even in a 3 DD group, somebody should be wearing SPC or Olorime; Major Courage is just that good. Nightblades and templars are the two obvious candidates.

The tank can wear SPC and use Blood Altar, the minor lifesteal from altar will proc SPC.

angelncelestine

Maybe they should rework the restro skill line. Give it a unique skill or a passive that is needed or strongly desired.

FrancisCrawford

idk wrote: »

I have to agree that I found it odd the class reps would make a statement like that about shields.

They didn't. They're smarter than that.

FrancisCrawford

erlewine wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

2. I'm pretty sure that even in a 3 DD group, somebody should be wearing SPC or Olorime; Major Courage is just that good. Nightblades and templars are the two obvious candidates.

The tank can wear SPC and use Blood Altar, the minor lifesteal from altar will proc SPC.

Good point!

Does the Leeching Vines also proc the tank's SPC? (I'm assuming a warden tank is the caster.)

karekiz

code65536 wrote: »

The whole "let's go without a healer" thing is, I think, mostly limited to the endgame crowd.

I actually agree with you 100% on that. I think the Tank / 3 DPS meta thing is mostly a more engame oriented thing <No classic non DLC dungeon don't count>. Doing 1 tank / 3 DPS in Bloodroot etc isn't what I would call easy for newbies to waltz in and do as DPS usually die with a healer if they are new. WIthout one even more so.