3rd party addons

robhavok

I'm a console player in a raid team struggling to complete Cloudrest HM. The groups that have done it on PC using raidnotify add-on. What's your thoughts?
Should add-ons that call out every mechanic before they happen be banned, be implemented into the base game for all platforms, or kept as pc 3rd party add-ons?

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

As for addons, I wish we were allowed to have them on console. Of course programmers would have to make it for different architectures and such because Sony and Xbox aren't the same, as well as the same as PC. But there are so many that I wish we had like guild trade related things (Master Merchant!) and having a DAMN GT SEARCH BAR. THAT NEEDS TO BE IN THE BASE GAME! Skyshard/Lorebook markers, because its such a pain to pull it up on my laptop and keep turning my head to look at a semi accurate map. Mass creating of food/potions, etc

#BringAddonsToConsole

Edit: Looking at this post, in my opinion, is a perfect example of one of my favorite phrases: "The Free Market Provides". The devs (Govt) put out a barely working item (countdowns/trackers) and programmers (private businesses/The Free Market) come up with better versions of things, as well as introduce what the devs (govt) is lacking/failing to provide.

code65536

We need addons because the base game is deficient.

Let's look at some examples.

1. In vCR, the base game's Active Combat Tip will warn you that you are about to get the lightning curse 3 seconds before you actually get it. The intent is for the player to get onto a bar that they want to "sacrifice", get the curse on that sacrificial bar, and then swap to the bar that they want to use for the duration of the curse. So what's the problem? Active Combat Tips are notoriously unreliable. They share the same UI space as synergy prompts. If there's a synergy prompt up when you're supposed to see the tip, the tip will never appear. If the tip shows and before you have a chance to read it, a synergy appears, the tip disappears and does not reappear.
   
   ZOS intends for the player to get a 3s pre-notification of the mechanic and to make use of that. Except it doesn't actually work. So we need an external addon to make the game behave as intended.
2. In March of Sacrifices HM, the base game's Active Combat Tip is supposed to let you know when the boss will shoot his fireball at you. This is particularly important because during the hunt phase of this fight, you can't actually see the boss most of the time. And you are supposed to dodge the fireball--failing to do so will punish you with a substantial DoT and also disqualify you from an achievement that requires all group members to dodge all the fireballs. So... you're supposed to dodge a projectile during a phase when you can't see that projectile being cast and when the Active Combat Tip for that projectile is virtually never seen (because it gets overridden by another Active Combat Tip that tells you that you are in the hunt phase--yes, because this eerie fog that obscures my vision isn't a giant clue).
   
   If MoS in its current state on the PTS launches on console, I'm certain nobody will be able to get that dodge-all-the-fireballs achievement. Yes, I've made note of this on the PTS. No, I have no realistic expectation that they'll fix this before launch since the unreliability of the game's Active Combat Tips is an age-old problem. But whatever. I have my addon on PC for this and I'm not on console, so...
3. In vAS HM, timing is very important. Mini-bosses enrage in 3 minutes and stay down for 45 seconds. Except there are no cues for any of this. Sure, you can see that the miniboss has enraged or has woken up, but it's pretty darn useful to know when it's about to enrage or about to wake up.
   
   This is just bad content design. To have a fight that is so dependent on players knowing timings and then giving no in-game tools to help players manage. What players did originally was to literally keep time manually. Get a stopwatch. Or several stopwatches. From what people who migrated from console to PC tell me, using physical stopwatches is still how it's done on console. The horror.

It'd be great if we didn't need any addons. If in-game cues were clear and reliable. If trial designers didn't take the clockwork theme so literally. But that's not the case, and addons exist as a way for the community to essentially fix the game.

It'd be nice if addons worked on console. But they don't and likely won't, which is why there is such a large number of ex-console players joining trials guilds on PC. Come join the PC masterrace. The game actually works on this platform, thanks to addons.

robhavok

I'll be honest when I say it's a kick in the teeth playing on console, the buff trackers are a clump mess I have no real control over the buffs show, we have no skill timers. Please zos if these add-ons are so popular why not improve the game and implement add on ideas.

Ratzkifal

Raid notifier is not necessary to complete Cloudrest HM but it helps a lot of course. Especially when you get easily overwhelmed by how many mechanics are happening at the same time.

No, that addon doesn't need to be implemented into the base game, because the mechanics are always pretty clear and the addon doesn't actually give any information an observant player doesn't already have (unlike a similar pvp addon that was banned a while ago).
Immersion is still a big part of the game to a considerable amount of players and large messages popping up like "cleanse now" are immersion breaking. That being said, if it was optional and could be turned off, then sure, more power to the players.

You have to remember that this game is being developed for PC first and then gets translated into console, so I am going to assume that the buff tracker being a mess is due to "translation issues". You just have to deal with that and hope there is room for improvement and it gets priority on ZOS to-do list soon. Hang in there.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Raid notifier is not necessary to complete Cloudrest HM but it helps a lot of course. Especially when you get easily overwhelmed by how many mechanics are happening at the same time.

No, that addon doesn't need to be implemented into the base game, because the mechanics are always pretty clear and the addon doesn't actually give any information an observant player doesn't already have (unlike a similar pvp addon that was banned a while ago).
Immersion is still a big part of the game to a considerable amount of players and large messages popping up like "cleanse now" are immersion breaking. That being said, if it was optional and could be turned off, then sure, more power to the players.

You have to remember that this game is being developed for PC first and then gets translated into console, so I am going to assume that the buff tracker being a mess is due to "translation issues". You just have to deal with that and hope there is room for improvement and it gets priority on ZOS to-do list soon. Hang in there.

That "muh emerzhun" excuse is such a scapegoat. You can turn things on and off. Default buff trackers are in the game and they can be turned on and off.

robhavok

'Immersion breaking' such a great way to describe the situation. What add ons do you personally use that aren't breaking immersion of the game. I don't have knowledge of available add ons

robhavok

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Raid notifier is not necessary to complete Cloudrest HM but it helps a lot of course. Especially when you get easily overwhelmed by how many mechanics are happening at the same time.

No, that addon doesn't need to be implemented into the base game, because the mechanics are always pretty clear and the addon doesn't actually give any information an observant player doesn't already have (unlike a similar pvp addon that was banned a while ago).
Immersion is still a big part of the game to a considerable amount of players and large messages popping up like "cleanse now" are immersion breaking. That being said, if it was optional and could be turned off, then sure, more power to the players.

You have to remember that this game is being developed for PC first and then gets translated into console, so I am going to assume that the buff tracker being a mess is due to "translation issues". You just have to deal with that and hope there is room for improvement and it gets priority on ZOS to-do list soon. Hang in there.

That "muh emerzhun" excuse is such a scapegoat. You can turn things on and off. Default buff trackers are in the game and they can be turned on and off.

With buff trackers I have these options. Permanent buffs (which noone would ever want to see) long buffs (like food, xp pots etc (not very useful) buffs from other players (good luck) so I use only short buff tracker and in combat it fills my screen with pointless buffs when I'm only wanting to track 1 or 2 buffs. Example; I gallop on my mount 3 buff trackers appear...

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

code65536 wrote: »

We need addons because the base game is deficient.

Let's look at some examples.

1. In vCR, the base game's Active Combat Tip will warn you that you are about to get the lightning curse 3 seconds before you actually get it. The intent is for the player to get onto a bar that they want to "sacrifice", get the curse on that sacrificial bar, and then swap to the bar that they want to use for the duration of the curse. So what's the problem? Active Combat Tips are notoriously unreliable. They share the same UI space as synergy prompts. If there's a synergy prompt up when you're supposed to see the tip, the tip will never appear. If the tip shows and before you have a chance to read it, a synergy appears, the tip disappears and does not reappear.
   
   ZOS intends for the player to get a 3s pre-notification of the mechanic and to make use of that. Except it doesn't actually work. So we need an external addon to make the game behave as intended.
2. In March of Sacrifices HM, the base game's Active Combat Tip is supposed to let you know when the boss will shoot his fireball at you. This is particularly important because during the hunt phase of this fight, you can't actually see the boss most of the time. And you are supposed to dodge the fireball--failing to do so will punish you with a substantial DoT and also disqualify you from an achievement that requires all group members to dodge all the fireballs. So... you're supposed to dodge a projectile during a phase when you can't see that projectile being cast and when the Active Combat Tip for that projectile is virtually never seen (because it gets overridden by another Active Combat Tip that tells you that you are in the hunt phase--yes, because this eerie fog that obscures my vision isn't a giant clue).
   
   If MoS in its current state on the PTS launches on console, I'm certain nobody will be able to get that dodge-all-the-fireballs achievement. Yes, I've made note of this on the PTS. No, I have no realistic expectation that they'll fix this before launch since the unreliability of the game's Active Combat Tips is an age-old problem. But whatever. I have my addon on PC for this and I'm not on console, so...
3. In vAS HM, timing is very important. Mini-bosses enrage in 3 minutes and stay down for 45 seconds. Except there are no cues for any of this. Sure, you can see that the miniboss has enraged or has woken up, but it's pretty darn useful to know when it's about to enrage or about to wake up.
   
   This is just bad content design. To have a fight that is so dependent on players knowing timings and then giving no in-game tools to help players manage. What players did originally was to literally keep time manually. Get a stopwatch. Or several stopwatches. From what people who migrated from console to PC tell me, using physical stopwatches is still how it's done on console. The horror.

It'd be great if we didn't need any addons. If in-game cues were clear and reliable. If trial designers didn't take the clockwork theme so literally. But that's not the case, and addons exist as a way for the community to essentially fix the game.

It'd be nice if addons worked on console. But they don't and likely won't, which is why there is such a large number of ex-console players joining trials guilds on PC. Come join the PC masterrace. The game actually works on this platform, thanks to addons.

I mean, the game runs okay-enough (aside from PvP but at this point I don't believe the lag will ever be ok/acceptable) but with the time I've put in (look at my signature if you haven't already), I'm not going to drop hundreds of dollars that I don't have on a PC just to play a game that I'm ok with already I suppose. Addons aren't worth it. We've been getting by for 3 years, we'll get by for another 3.

As for the fireball, well, bring lots of stam builds in and just dodge all the time??? XD Lmao

robhavok

I never knew active combat tips shared the same ui space as synergy's, it explains everything ! I rarely see a combat tip. My raid team is running VCR & VAS hard-modes as we've already completed everything else but we're having to time things like the enrage counter from mini bosses in vas because it does not pop up. Please zos change this.

PlagueSD

robhavok wrote: »

I'm a console player in a raid team struggling to complete Cloudrest HM. The groups that have done it on PC using raidnotify add-on. What's your thoughts?
Should add-ons that call out every mechanic before they happen be banned, be implemented into the base game for all platforms, or kept as pc 3rd party add-ons?

Leave my addons alone. They make up for the gross inadequacies of the base game UI. I like having a minimap in game (especally for the Velidreth fight in CoS.) and a nice DoT/Buff tracker that adds a timer to your ability buttons so you know when to refresh.

Also, I use Dressing Room addon to store item sets. I can swap gear and/or abilities quite easily (outside of combat, of course). Lastly, Awesome Guild Store provides a MUCH needed search interface for the guild stores. I don't have to sit there for 30 mins scrolling when I am searching for an item.

IMO, All those addons I listed above should have been part of the base game UI, but sadly, they're not. We depend on addons to supplement the Game UI. They do NOT "play" the game for us.

Draxinusom_

The addon/base ui/information stuff is an extremly old discussion. It actually precedes the release if I remember correctly.

Initially, you didn't even get any information about buffs or debuffs on you. There was a time where you only got the bars but no numbers on them. If you wanted numbers, you had to have addons.

But things change. Now the addon API gives buff & debuff information. Numbers are optionally toggleable in the base ui, etc.

Personally I think it is folly to restrict information as strong as they do and it's not gone far enough. If you want a pro raid scene in your game, unlock all the information (including dps of your group mates), allow addon communication channels, etc. Same if you want a strong pro PVP scene (the covetted "e-sports"). Because a strong community pulls in more casual and semi-pro players and increases reach (and sales).

Just look on twitch where eso is located, heck, Super Mario Maker has more viewers than eso.

But ultimately they cling to some restrictive conservative guidelines and it's their right but also their consequences to bear. I think it's misguided, but ultimately not really my battle.

As for consoles, they have the same API as the PC version, it's just that there is no way to install addons. If you could install them, they would work. The base UI uses the same mechanisms as addons, so all the pieces are there. But consoles are walled gardens protected by their keepers (Microsoft and Sony) and there are big hurdles even for normal updates ("certification") to overcome just to get those released. If addons were allowed there, ZOS would probably need to actively monitor and vet addons as these are "uncontrolled" user created content on the game which may "alter pg rating and expectations" or whatever bullshitty-excuse the walled garden keepers use to protect their turf.

Tandor

The limitations in the base UI are likely to be a deliberate part of the TES IP. The TES games have always had a minimal default UI with a strong modding community and it made sense for ZOS to follow that approach with ESO. Indeed, there would have been a massive player reaction had they not done so.

So far as PC players are concerned, pretty well all the things players might want in the UI are available through addons for those that want them, representing both tactical measures and shortcuts. Personally I have never used a single one and have no need for them but I fully accept that's down to individual playstyle and others will have different requirements, which is fine so long as the features included either remain in optional addons or are added to the default UI as fully optional features (and don't impact badly on server performance for everyone regardless of whether they use them).

The only problem really comes from the conversion of the game to console and the decision by the platform providers not to allow addons. But for that I'm confident that ZOS would cater for them. Is there somewhere that console players can take this up with Microsoft and Sony because there's no benefit in raising it with ZOS if those companies aren't supportive in the first place?

Draxinusom_

Yeah the series always had a limited UI. But in the single player games you can literally change everything and do total conversions. Obviously that's not feasible in an MMO with other players, however the addon api still restricts far far more than comparable others (prime example: World of Warcraft). WoW has the same limitation in that it can't allow you to do whatever you please, but it still has a much much more open ("capable") API than eso. Consequently, the addon scene in WoW is way bigger and this in turn seems to attract more players too.

Addons by the way should never impact server performance, they run 100% on the user's PC. Basically it's just the game client giving structured information about gamestate and allows some local influence. If we take the buff example, the API in eso currently only gives my buffs and debuffs (and from what I'm targetting). But it does not allow me to query the buffs the three people standing behind me in my group have right now. While the client already has this information because it actually paints them on the screen with the coresponding buff effect. So there's no further load on the server because I use an addon displaying buffs for example, because the information will be sent anyways from the server to the client and the client already has it. The api just decides what I can get and query for my addon and it can prevent me from getting information.

What is really interesting wrt consoles is that Skyrim exist as Xbox and PS games and they do have a marketplace with user-made mods there. It's a relatively recent addition (considering Skyrim came out in 2011) but it's an example that there is no technical barrier in play.

code65536

robhavok wrote: »

I never knew active combat tips shared the same ui space as synergy's, it explains everything ! I rarely see a combat tip. My raid team is running VCR & VAS hard-modes as we've already completed everything else but we're having to time things like the enrage counter from mini bosses in vas because it does not pop up. Please zos change this.

That's mostly a problem for the lightning mechanic in vCR, since you don't reliably get the pre-warning that lets you control which bar you sacrifice for the curse.

There are no Active Combat Tips at all in vAS for the enrages (i.e., it's not that they are getting hidden, is that they don't exist in the first place)--vAS is just bad trial design. The only Active Combat Tips in vAS is a tip telling you that you've been maimed by Felms and a tip that you've been defiled by Llothis. I.e., stuff that doesn't need a tip in the first place.



One more example of the Active Combat Tip problem is the Hulk shatter in on the vet Rakkhat fight. Two years ago, when vMoL was new and people were learning it, we noticed that when we got shattered, the game would pop up an Active Combat Tip message saying that our armor was weakened, and the language used by that text corresponds to how many shatters we got--the more dire the message, the more shatters we got. So when I was first learning to tank, I was asked to let the main tank know when I saw the text corresponding to the second shatter. I often never saw that text--the text just didn't show over half the time. I was forced to watch for the shatters and manually keep a tally in my head. Which is what every vMoL tank had to learn to do--watch the shatters and count them, because the Active Combat Tip that was supposed to count for you doesn't work reliably.

But in vMoL, thats fine. It makes things a bit harder for new tanks who are overwhelmed by everything, but the shatters are pretty visually distinct (and come with a unique sound effect) and experienced tanks can manually count the shatters without much issue. But what about the lightning mechanic in vCR? Yes, there is a subtle visual cue associated with that 3s pre-curse, but it's hard to see and easily missed when there are other effects around you. Or the fireballs in Balorgh HM? If it's during the hunt phase, you can't see them cast most of the time, and the only warning you get is that you see a fireball zipping toward you once it has gotten close enough to no longer be obscured by the fog, at which point you have just a small fraction of a second to dodge.

Anyway, seeing as how the base game's Active Combat Tips have not worked reliably since over two years ago (and probably since even before then), I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for a fix.