Since we're changing sets; Can we get a change for Essence Thief?

MaxwellC

「(5 items) When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you have a 15% chance to draw essence from an enemy. Collecting the essence heals you 4300 Health, restores Stamina and increases your damage by 12% for 10 seconds.」

As you can see this set has a wonderful 5 set bonus that is completely gimped by the need to use a Light attack while having a 15% chance for it to work; It also has a rune that spawns at random locations thus further diminishing the usefulness of the set.

The only change(s) that I'd like to see is that it'll proc from either all damage sources or from melee damage & possibly the removal of the annoying gimmick i.e collecting the essence.

Edit: Since I mentioned this in my second comment, I'll lay it out on the first post. DoT would/should be excluded from damage sources that allow this set to proc if the changes were to occur.

TheNightflame

I'm ok with it as is but i'd love for it to be a ball thar slowly travels to the set wearer but can be used by the first person who touches it. or make something like that but restore both resources for healers to wear to encourage weaving.

MaxwellC

@TheNightflame
Not sure what healer wears a stamina set meant for damaging a target but okay, I also disagree with allowing everyone to get it as it's a buffing set meant for the user.

I'm not sure if you have experience with this set but as a clear PvP set LA at a 15% chance with the gimmick of the essence traveling all over the place... yeah I feel just flat melee damage would be better.

TheNightflame

I only really pve so do come from that kinda standpoint. also talking in terms of pve though, even if this set had 100% uptime, it'd still be objectively weaker than relequen which adds 7k+ dps

Feanor

Making older sets useful? That’s not how this works, you know.

MaxwellC

@TheNightflame

Not understanding your argument since you subsequently defeated your original response to my change by labeling it weaker than other sets that you use for your PvE perspective.

My point is that this set would be perfect for any class who needs to run an offensive/recovery set to be somewhat proficient in PvP. You may say it's not the best recovery set but it's a hybrid set that would work wonders if done right.

My perfect thing would be for there to be no rune gimmick and that it would proc off of all damage sources other than DoT but still retain that 15% chance for it to occur.

TheNightflame

I never meant it as a dispute, i was just throwing out an idea. i agree with everything you were/are saying. if anything they should use the set as inspiration for two new ones (or create both of what we're talking about). things don't have to be mutually exclusive, i get and agree with your pov too

LiquidPony

MaxwellC wrote: »

@TheNightflame
Not sure what healer wears a stamina set meant for damaging a target but okay, I also disagree with allowing everyone to get it as it's a buffing set meant for the user.

I'm not sure if you have experience with this set but as a clear PvP set LA at a 15% chance with the gimmick of the essence traveling all over the place... yeah I feel just flat melee damage would be better.

How is it a "clear PvP set" with no stam regen bonuses?

Looks like a PvE set to me, tbh. In fact, if it weren't for the fact that you have to chase down the essence, it would probably be the BiS stamina DPS set to pair with Relequen.

I don't have a problem with the LA proc, it's just the chasing the essence that sucks.

MaxwellC

@LiquidPony
Mate it gives you back Stam, health + increases your damage when doing an LA. A PvP set is based off of ones perspective & to me it's clear based on what it provides i.e 2 & 3 1k Stam and 4 being 129 weapon power.

Not sure how a set that boosts your damage by 12% would be better than other sets like TF,HR,heck even the set that gives you a flat 4k flame damage per HA would be better. I people wanna somehow say this is a BiS for PvE but it doesn't make sense how it would be even if you were to remove the essence.

NordSwordnBoard

I was fighting a guy in PvP, and he stopped attacking me to get his essence. I killed him thanks to the breather he gave me.

Working as intended?

LiquidPony

MaxwellC wrote: »

@LiquidPony
Mate it gives you back Stam, health + increases your damage when doing an LA. A PvP set is based off of ones perspective & to me it's clear based on what it provides i.e 2 & 3 1k Stam and 4 being 129 weapon power.

Not sure how a set that boosts your damage by 12% would be better than other sets like TF,HR,heck even the set that gives you a flat 4k flame damage per HA would be better. I people wanna somehow say this is a BiS for PvE but it doesn't make sense how it would be even if you were to remove the essence.

Wut.

I think you've got a skewed notion of how stat bonuses correlate to percent increases.

Without even getting into the math (because the 5-piece bonus from Hunding's Rage or TFS is *nowhere near* a 12% damage bonus), just consider War Machine. The 5-piece bonus, Major Slayer, is a 15% damage bonus that you can keep up 50-60% of the time on a Nightblade. This is a 12% bonus that could be up 100% of the time without that silly Essence. And it also has a giant sustain/healing proc (equivalent to +430 health and stam regen).

The 12% damage done doesn't correlate exactly to a 12% DPS increase because it is additive with other damage done modifiers like Minor Berserk and Minor Slayer. It's probably more like an 8.5% DPS increase. But compare that to Hunding's Rage, which is (assuming a build with 3500 weapon damage and 35000 stamina, with Minor/Major Brutality):

DPS increase = 1 + ((10.5 * 299 * 1.25)/(35000 + 10.5 * 3500)) = 5.5%

... and Essence Thief has the sustain/healing bonus to boot.

I'm pretty confident that if you didn't have to collect the essence, this set would have been nerfed long ago because every PvE stam DPS would've been running it.

MaxwellC

@LiquidPony

Nah I'm quite sure you misinterpreted my point as I'm referring to your base damage where that 12% goes to so your "analysis" to try to take me down was pretty wasted. Nor did I even state that 12% damage = 12% DPS so please stop misrepresenting me with that narrative you're portraying because I have not even stated what you said nor have I even said anything about it increasing ones DPS by 12%.

You're even stating that I said Essence thief would be better when clearly I said the other sets would be and questioned how they would be better like what?

Again even if this set didn't have you collect said essence you have to LA and would have a 15% chance of gaining that so your up-time in between weaves could be high depending on what class but as a DK nope.

Kram8ion

Oh god yes please no collecting at least

LiquidPony

MaxwellC wrote: »

@LiquidPony

Nah I'm quite sure you misinterpreted my point as I'm referring to your base damage where that 12% goes to so your "analysis" to try to take me down was pretty wasted. Nor did I even state that 12% damage = 12% DPS so please stop misrepresenting me with that narrative you're portraying because I have not even stated what you said nor have I even said anything about it increasing ones DPS by 12%.

You're even stating that I said Essence thief would be better when clearly I said the other sets would be and questioned how they would be better like what?

Again even if this set didn't have you collect said essence you have to LA and would have a 15% chance of gaining that so your up-time in between weaves could be high depending on what class but as a DK nope.

I honestly don't know you could have possibly misread everything I said ...

I did not say that you said that "12% damage = 12% DPS", I was explaining the difference so that I could compare Essence Thief to other sets.

And I did not say that you said "Essence Thief would be better." I'm completely confused as to how you could possibly get that from what I wrote. I am saying that Essence Thief would be better.

And I don't know if you have actually tested Essence Thief on a target skeleton, but the uptime is usually 60% and it's not uncommon to see 75% or more. I've had up to 90%.

And the thing is, because it returns so much stamina, you can run a pure light attack rotation on any build. In a group setting with synergies, you could easily run bi-stat max/max food and sustain a pure light attack rotation, even on a stamsorc or a stamDK (and you can heavy attack while the buff is up without losing proc chances if you have to).

But anyway, go test it on a target skeleton. With a bit of tooling around you can see how strong the potential is, it's just not workable because you can't be off chasing the essence around in most Trials fights. On PTS I regularly parse in the ~40k range with Essence Thief + Relequen right now on a stamsorc solo, despite losing DPS while I'm running around trying to collect the essence (and missing LA's in the process, which doesn't work well with a Crushing Weapon build), which is comparable to what I parse with Ravager or Advancing Yokeda. And also, the cooldown on the set doesn't work exactly how it seems it would. It doesn't start from when you collect the essence, it starts from when the essence is spawned. So depending on how the fight plays out, you can actually re-proc the essence while you've still got the buff up and get much higher uptimes.

RedrunnerFred

Instead of the collecting who not have the orb come to you slowly similar to how the harvesters work. Possibly make the ball targetable, have good hp, good defense, and count as a pet when active so the enemy has to choose between attacking you or the ball. Then change the proc to all damage have a cooldown and once every 5-10 seconds.

DuskMarine

making it to where this set would just give a flat increase somewhere would be nice

hedna123b14_ESO

TheNightflame wrote: »

I'm ok with it as is but i'd love for it to be a ball thar slowly travels to the set wearer but can be used by the first person who touches it. or make something like that but restore both resources for healers to wear to encourage weaving.

This would actually be amazing, but the easiest way to make this set amazing is to make it so u get the buff instantly

hedna123b14_ESO

MaxwellC wrote: »

@LiquidPony
Mate it gives you back Stam, health + increases your damage when doing an LA. A PvP set is based off of ones perspective & to me it's clear based on what it provides i.e 2 & 3 1k Stam and 4 being 129 weapon power.

Not sure how a set that boosts your damage by 12% would be better than other sets like TF,HR,heck even the set that gives you a flat 4k flame damage per HA would be better. I people wanna somehow say this is a BiS for PvE but it doesn't make sense how it would be even if you were to remove the essence.

This is a clear pve set that was badly designed. The damage it provides is amazing, the reason it procs from la is BECAUSE it's meant for pve...the only bad part is chasing down buffs...

MaxwellC

@hedna123b14_ESO
Nah I don't agree with the notion as "since it procs with an LA then it means its for PvE" although I've clearly stated its one perception of the set so I can't really argue that you're 100% wrong.

The set is awesome and it's bonuses IMO are PvP orientated due to what it provides, if it provided more crit than stam... then I'd give ya that one but since it does not, well I cannot agree. You may think "Crit would be better for PvP" and that is some-what true but most players run high crit resistance and it's main benefit would be from healing.
Raw damage is generally the best way to go for PvP whereas possible damage is better for PvE due to being able to predict your targets moves.

hedna123b14_ESO

MaxwellC wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO
Nah I don't agree with the notion as "since it procs with an LA then it means its for PvE" although I've clearly stated its one perception of the set so I can't really argue that you're 100% wrong.

The set is awesome and it's bonuses IMO are PvP orientated due to what it provides, if it provided more crit than stam... then I'd give ya that one but since it does not, well I cannot agree. You may think "Crit would be better for PvP" and that is some-what true but most players run high crit resistance and it's main benefit would be from healing.
Raw damage is generally the best way to go for PvP whereas possible damage is better for PvE due to being able to predict your targets moves.

Vicious Ophidian is a PvE set that was bis on several classes for several dlcs until summerset. That's a purely pve set with a sustain aspect. Essence Thief is Vicious Ophidian on steroids. Its bonuses are absolutely amazing for PvE and if we didnt need to chase the buff, then I can promise you this would be the absolute best set to pair with Reliquen and the best set for pve in general, since Enchants, Reloquen and Monster Sets are all unaffected by weapon damage, crit and stamina. Meaning that in the current meta the buff to damage coupled with sustain from the set would mean that all stam dps can run bi-stat food AND forgo heavy attacking entirely...

olsborg

The low procc chance on LA only and the fact that you have to manually collect it makes this set pretty darn weak. Ive tried it.
I wish there was a dlc that revamped all the weak/unused sets in the game. Get @Gilliamtherogue on it with his own little team. Id loooove that.

usmcjdking

Honestly, if anyone could pick it up and it spawned from the player and not the monster that would be such a gigantic QOL fix for ET that I'd probably slot it on all my toons lol.

Horowonnoe

usmcjdking wrote: »

Honestly, if anyone could pick it up and it spawned from the player and not the monster that would be such a gigantic QOL fix for ET that I'd probably slot it on all my toons lol.

That would work great for stacked groups. Cuz you could pick it up by just being in group.

Silver_Strider

While we're on the topic of buffing IC sets,
Meritorious Service is in DESPERATE need of a buff.

A small armor buff on 4 people for using a Support skill is pathetic considering that most Support Skills are somewhat niche and this set suffers because it feels like it should've just been a passive from the Support Skill line instead of wasting a 5 pc bonus on it.

Also, this is now a nerf Sorc thread.

Minno

I don't even know what the set's proc looks like lol

Wuuffyy

Just make it where the essence spawns faster and is more predictable. Also this set ONLY procs on straight light attacks. I have a stamblade and it doesn't work on my weaves (if it did I'd use this set).

Skelfish

As an additional note, I did some light testing with this set on the PTS with a werewolf and it actually works fairly well. Granted, I did this solo so the number of flashy lightning bits from other sorcerers was minimal, but it has some nice sustain and circling around bosses to collect the essence doesn't really affect DPS because it spawns in melee range and the werewolf howl can be used from the same range as the spawn.

On a dummy I got about 30k DPS using light attacks, Hircine's Rage, and using Roar a couple times after picking up each essense. In a real test with vet fungal grotto, I managed to minimize my usage of Hircine's Rage as a heal and attack between 22-26k DPS depending on how much each boss moved around.

This set was used with Bahraha's Curse, so with a different stamina and weapon damage oriented set the numbers would obviously be higher. A person using this set in human form who is much more experienced at weaving than I am could definitely make it work, but I also see how it's a clunky mechanic to track down the essence if you don't stay within a couple meters of bosses or are in a dungeon/trial scenario where there is a lot of lightning skills at play (because the essence is the same color).

Qbiken

MaxwellC wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO
Nah I don't agree with the notion as "since it procs with an LA then it means its for PvE" although I've clearly stated its one perception of the set so I can't really argue that you're 100% wrong.

The set is awesome and it's bonuses IMO are PvP orientated due to what it provides, if it provided more crit than stam... then I'd give ya that one but since it does not, well I cannot agree. You may think "Crit would be better for PvP" and that is some-what true but most players run high crit resistance and it's main benefit would be from healing.
Raw damage is generally the best way to go for PvP whereas possible damage is better for PvE due to being able to predict your targets moves.

Essence Thief would be an amazing set on a werewolf in PvP (since most of your damage should come from light attacks), but the design where you´ve to run after the essence kills the set completely.

Aedaryl

MaxwellC wrote: »

「(5 items) When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you have a 15% chance to draw essence from an enemy. Collecting the essence heals you 4300 Health, restores Stamina and increases your damage by 12% for 10 seconds.」

As you can see this set has a wonderful 5 set bonus that is completely gimped by the need to use a Light attack while having a 15% chance for it to work; It also has a rune that spawns at random locations thus further diminishing the usefulness of the set.

The only change(s) that I'd like to see is that it'll proc from either all damage sources or from melee damage & possibly the removal of the annoying gimmick i.e collecting the essence.

So want a set that give you health, stamina, that proc on everything and that automatically give you 12% more damage ?

Are you serious ?

Learn to balance, that would be completly OP.

olsborg

Aedaryl wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

「(5 items) When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you have a 15% chance to draw essence from an enemy. Collecting the essence heals you 4300 Health, restores Stamina and increases your damage by 12% for 10 seconds.」

As you can see this set has a wonderful 5 set bonus that is completely gimped by the need to use a Light attack while having a 15% chance for it to work; It also has a rune that spawns at random locations thus further diminishing the usefulness of the set.

The only change(s) that I'd like to see is that it'll proc from either all damage sources or from melee damage & possibly the removal of the annoying gimmick i.e collecting the essence.

So want a set that give you health, stamina, that proc on everything and that automatically give you 12% more damage ?

Are you serious ?

Learn to balance, that would be completly OP.

Have you ever tried using ET in pvp? The low procc chance coupled with the clunky mechanic when it actually does procc makes it extremely unpractical to the point where it becomes negatively loaded spending most of your time chasing the essence instead of actually fighting ppl.

Aedaryl

olsborg wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

「(5 items) When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you have a 15% chance to draw essence from an enemy. Collecting the essence heals you 4300 Health, restores Stamina and increases your damage by 12% for 10 seconds.」

As you can see this set has a wonderful 5 set bonus that is completely gimped by the need to use a Light attack while having a 15% chance for it to work; It also has a rune that spawns at random locations thus further diminishing the usefulness of the set.

The only change(s) that I'd like to see is that it'll proc from either all damage sources or from melee damage & possibly the removal of the annoying gimmick i.e collecting the essence.

So want a set that give you health, stamina, that proc on everything and that automatically give you 12% more damage ?

Are you serious ?

Learn to balance, that would be completly OP.

Have you ever tried using ET in pvp? The low procc chance coupled with the clunky mechanic when it actually does procc makes it extremely unpractical to the point where it becomes negatively loaded spending most of your time chasing the essence instead of actually fighting ppl.

Did I say ET coudn't be buffed ?

Having the set procing on everything and having the 12% easely would make this set BiS for everything.