Punish players who use macros

Emma_Overload

DuskMarine wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of posts, we must ask that posts from here be kept civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

@ZOS_GregoryV could we get a statement on what zos actually thinks about this though? macros kindve ruin the whole skill factor of the game tbh.

ZOS has already commented on this a couple times over the years. The jist is that if you use a 3rd party software to automate multiple actions, you are cheating. So macros and bots are forbidden.

yea but heres the grey area macros are not always "3rd party software" there are official companies who make gaming mice with macros on them on the side. thus why we need a real answer on this grey area cause in reality they cannot legally ban someone for something that is sold by recognized companies that they know for a fact exists to be bought.

You can use that software (e.g. Razer Synapse) to change your keybinds without breaking ESO's TOS. But the minute you assign MULTIPLE actions to one keypress or mouse click, you are breaking the rules. The fact that the software you are using is "official" from your mouse or keyboard manufacturer has no relevance whatsoever.

Having said that... I suspect that one reason ZOS doesn't hard-code a check for macro software into ESO is because they would rather not alienate the manufacturers of gaming peripherals. The bottom line is that we are really on the "honor system" when it comes to macros.

D0PAMINE

I know people with disabilities who use them. What savages.

Bakkagami

For a game who's combat is really not at all conducive to it, the macro threads never seem to die.

SlippyCheeze

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

I played WoW for a year before making the switch to ESO. In WoW some classes needed macros because of how many skills that needed to be slotted.

No, they don't, and you were cheating when you used them. You probably shouldn't talk too loudly about it, in public, if you also cheat in ESO.

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

OP, if you’re getting rekt in pvp the safe bet is that it was probably not because of macros.

This, though, this is true.

Ampnode

.

SlippyCheeze wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

I played WoW for a year before making the switch to ESO. In WoW some classes needed macros because of how many skills that needed to be slotted.

No, they don't, and you were cheating when you used them. You probably shouldn't talk too loudly about it, in public, if you also cheat in ESO.

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

OP, if you’re getting rekt in pvp the safe bet is that it was probably not because of macros.

This, though, this is true.

He's not going to get banned because ZOS knows a keybind isn't going to magically grant a bypass to a server's variable. The only reason why they would ban macros is to shut the "majority" up so they can stop blaming it on the reason why they lose in PvP.

UnseenCat

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I know people with disabilities who use them. What savages.

There's a very big reason right there why outright bans of macro use is a Very Bad Idea. In the modern world, you do NOT exclude accessibility-focused controllers and macros. And that's as simple as inhibiting normal keyboard auto-repeat and then banning a person with severe arthritis who programs a macro to repeat presses of the basic attack keybind. It could easily result in a lawsuit and very bad publicity, and justifiably so.

Macros are great against games that follow regular timing patterns. Modern games have progressed beyond that. Modern enemy AI's don't follow clockwork-precision attack patterns. They deliberately vary the timing because humans are darn good at recognizing and countering against precise patterns. Variation, even by a few milliseconds, trips up pattern recognition, makes enemies seem more lifelike, and along the way makes complex sequenced macros useless. They'll fall off of timing and be useless quickly.

The only really useful macros are ones that overcome bad UI or adapt conventional UI to someone who needs assistive adaptations. Bad UI could be something like requiring several awkward keystrokes to execute an attack or game function -- that's a prime candidate for a macro because its basically a quality-of-life problem for players. Game publishers which punish their users for working around QOL problems get bad publicity rather quickly. Players get upset about user-hostile moves, and it's understandable.

Garden-variety keyboard or button macros aren't the problem. Bots are. Bots are sophisticated programs that, at the very least, perform if-this-then-that processing and affect gameplay by outputting automated key/button sequences based on input triggers. A bot could be started and stopped by a single keypress, much like a macro. But the outcome is very different.

Bots are what ZOS is and should be concerned about. A simple keyboard macro isn't game-changing enough to be an issue, not the way ESO's PVE AI behaves or against the randomness of human opponents in PVE.

Heck, the lag has alternately killed or saved be in PVP. Let's ban the lag!

Fur_like_snow

No, they don't, and you were cheating when you used them.

Yes, they did. Try playing a resto shaman during Cata. No, it wasn’t cheating WoW has an entire sub forum dedicated to macros and UI mods.

You probably shouldn't talk too loudly about it, in public, if you also cheat in ESO.

Zeni is welcome to watch me play ESO any day they’ll probably learn a few things.

Thogard

Vizier wrote: »

This is a subject that has always perplexed me. I've practiced animation cancelling and I've never been able to pull off 3 Hvy attacks with a couple skills and light attacks that all hit at the same time. When it happens to you all you see is one attack and the next thing you know your layed out pushing up Daisies.

People talk about the global cool down and while that sounds good, it sounds like there's a mechanism in place to stop or limit macros from being effective I'm just not convinced. Some say "oh it's lag" but then you run into the same player that does the same thing to you. If they keep repeating it at various times under various circumstances I'm supposed to believe the lag hit me each time just as the player started their rotation...every time?

Some say macros aren't viable because they have to be flexible and able to alter their strategy or tactics on the fly. Once again this sounds good and reasonable but if you think about it all we are talking about is making a bunch of attacks hit very quickly. That is pretty easy to insert into virtually any melee, especially if it results in the death of the other player.

And if it is "animation cancelling" explain to me how that can't also be macro'd and enhanced? I suspect there's more to this than some of the "naysayers" are letting on.

It would seem to me ZoS could evaluate timestamps on attack and sequences to determine whether or not it's legit.

I think you’re confusing HP and/or projectile desymchronizations with macros.

There are a few things you can do in this game that the client won’t register but the server will, and when everything is said and done you explode when the server tells your client all these things happened to you at the same time.

It isn’t related to macros though.

D0PAMINE

UnseenCat wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I know people with disabilities who use them. What savages.

There's a very big reason right there why outright bans of macro use is a Very Bad Idea. In the modern world, you do NOT exclude accessibility-focused controllers and macros. And that's as simple as inhibiting normal keyboard auto-repeat and then banning a person with severe arthritis who programs a macro to repeat presses of the basic attack keybind. It could easily result in a lawsuit and very bad publicity, and justifiably so.

Macros are great against games that follow regular timing patterns. Modern games have progressed beyond that. Modern enemy AI's don't follow clockwork-precision attack patterns. They deliberately vary the timing because humans are darn good at recognizing and countering against precise patterns. Variation, even by a few milliseconds, trips up pattern recognition, makes enemies seem more lifelike, and along the way makes complex sequenced macros useless. They'll fall off of timing and be useless quickly.

The only really useful macros are ones that overcome bad UI or adapt conventional UI to someone who needs assistive adaptations. Bad UI could be something like requiring several awkward keystrokes to execute an attack or game function -- that's a prime candidate for a macro because its basically a quality-of-life problem for players. Game publishers which punish their users for working around QOL problems get bad publicity rather quickly. Players get upset about user-hostile moves, and it's understandable.

Garden-variety keyboard or button macros aren't the problem. Bots are. Bots are sophisticated programs that, at the very least, perform if-this-then-that processing and affect gameplay by outputting automated key/button sequences based on input triggers. A bot could be started and stopped by a single keypress, much like a macro. But the outcome is very different.

Bots are what ZOS is and should be concerned about. A simple keyboard macro isn't game-changing enough to be an issue, not the way ESO's PVE AI behaves or against the randomness of human opponents in PVE.

Heck, the lag has alternately killed or saved be in PVP. Let's ban the lag!

Exactly. In the U.S we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, and in my like of work, I understand how tedous working on a computer/gaming can be, so I understand some people might need an easier method for a function. Which is fine, as there is a GCD.

Of course I understand OP is reffering to cheaters, however I also feel that the points we brought up are part of why ZoS allows such things to exist so easily. I mean, if someone in PVP thinks they can kill me easily and 100% of the time with an automated combo, well, im gonna likely eff them up, and im not even that good.

Thogard

D0PAMINE wrote: »

UnseenCat wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I know people with disabilities who use them. What savages.

There's a very big reason right there why outright bans of macro use is a Very Bad Idea. In the modern world, you do NOT exclude accessibility-focused controllers and macros. And that's as simple as inhibiting normal keyboard auto-repeat and then banning a person with severe arthritis who programs a macro to repeat presses of the basic attack keybind. It could easily result in a lawsuit and very bad publicity, and justifiably so.

Macros are great against games that follow regular timing patterns. Modern games have progressed beyond that. Modern enemy AI's don't follow clockwork-precision attack patterns. They deliberately vary the timing because humans are darn good at recognizing and countering against precise patterns. Variation, even by a few milliseconds, trips up pattern recognition, makes enemies seem more lifelike, and along the way makes complex sequenced macros useless. They'll fall off of timing and be useless quickly.

The only really useful macros are ones that overcome bad UI or adapt conventional UI to someone who needs assistive adaptations. Bad UI could be something like requiring several awkward keystrokes to execute an attack or game function -- that's a prime candidate for a macro because its basically a quality-of-life problem for players. Game publishers which punish their users for working around QOL problems get bad publicity rather quickly. Players get upset about user-hostile moves, and it's understandable.

Garden-variety keyboard or button macros aren't the problem. Bots are. Bots are sophisticated programs that, at the very least, perform if-this-then-that processing and affect gameplay by outputting automated key/button sequences based on input triggers. A bot could be started and stopped by a single keypress, much like a macro. But the outcome is very different.

Bots are what ZOS is and should be concerned about. A simple keyboard macro isn't game-changing enough to be an issue, not the way ESO's PVE AI behaves or against the randomness of human opponents in PVE.

Heck, the lag has alternately killed or saved be in PVP. Let's ban the lag!

Exactly. In the U.S we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, and in my like of work, I understand how tedous working on a computer/gaming can be, so I understand some people might need an easier method for a function. Which is fine, as there is a GCD.

Of course I understand OP is reffering to cheaters, however I also feel that the points we brought up are part of why ZoS allows such things to exist so easily. I mean, if someone in PVP thinks they can kill me easily and 100% of the time with an automated combo, well, im gonna likely eff them up, and im not even that good.

Are you guys seriously arguing that the ADA should allow handicapped people to cheat in videogames?

Because it doesn’t.

D0PAMINE

Thogard wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

UnseenCat wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I know people with disabilities who use them. What savages.

There's a very big reason right there why outright bans of macro use is a Very Bad Idea. In the modern world, you do NOT exclude accessibility-focused controllers and macros. And that's as simple as inhibiting normal keyboard auto-repeat and then banning a person with severe arthritis who programs a macro to repeat presses of the basic attack keybind. It could easily result in a lawsuit and very bad publicity, and justifiably so.

Macros are great against games that follow regular timing patterns. Modern games have progressed beyond that. Modern enemy AI's don't follow clockwork-precision attack patterns. They deliberately vary the timing because humans are darn good at recognizing and countering against precise patterns. Variation, even by a few milliseconds, trips up pattern recognition, makes enemies seem more lifelike, and along the way makes complex sequenced macros useless. They'll fall off of timing and be useless quickly.

The only really useful macros are ones that overcome bad UI or adapt conventional UI to someone who needs assistive adaptations. Bad UI could be something like requiring several awkward keystrokes to execute an attack or game function -- that's a prime candidate for a macro because its basically a quality-of-life problem for players. Game publishers which punish their users for working around QOL problems get bad publicity rather quickly. Players get upset about user-hostile moves, and it's understandable.

Garden-variety keyboard or button macros aren't the problem. Bots are. Bots are sophisticated programs that, at the very least, perform if-this-then-that processing and affect gameplay by outputting automated key/button sequences based on input triggers. A bot could be started and stopped by a single keypress, much like a macro. But the outcome is very different.

Bots are what ZOS is and should be concerned about. A simple keyboard macro isn't game-changing enough to be an issue, not the way ESO's PVE AI behaves or against the randomness of human opponents in PVE.

Heck, the lag has alternately killed or saved be in PVP. Let's ban the lag!

Exactly. In the U.S we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, and in my like of work, I understand how tedous working on a computer/gaming can be, so I understand some people might need an easier method for a function. Which is fine, as there is a GCD.

Of course I understand OP is reffering to cheaters, however I also feel that the points we brought up are part of why ZoS allows such things to exist so easily. I mean, if someone in PVP thinks they can kill me easily and 100% of the time with an automated combo, well, im gonna likely eff them up, and im not even that good.

Are you guys seriously arguing that the ADA should allow handicapped people to cheat in videogames?

Because it doesn’t.

No, not even close.

Pixel_Zealot

My keyboard comes with 5 macros which I can set up as I see fit. I don't use them, but I can set it up to cast a while rotation with one click.

It's not cheating. Some MMOs even have macros built into the game.

DeadlyRecluse

DuskMarine wrote: »

yea but heres the grey area macros are not always "3rd party software" there are official companies who make gaming mice with macros on them on the side. thus why we need a real answer on this grey area cause in reality they cannot legally ban someone for something that is sold by recognized companies that they know for a fact exists to be bought.

I'm going to blow your mind right now...

Official companies who make gaming mice are providing "3rd party software." No clarification is needed, macroing using your mouse's software is using 3rd party software. No grey area at all.

SlippyCheeze

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

yea but heres the grey area macros are not always "3rd party software" there are official companies who make gaming mice with macros on them on the side. thus why we need a real answer on this grey area cause in reality they cannot legally ban someone for something that is sold by recognized companies that they know for a fact exists to be bought.

I'm going to blow your mind right now...

Official companies who make gaming mice are providing "3rd party software." No clarification is needed, macroing using your mouse's software is using 3rd party software. No grey area at all.

They are probably thinking that "macro implemented in hardware", which some of them do, is the grey area... which it isn't, of course, but it does confuse people who don't understand that the TOS are designed so that ZOS can ban you if you do this in any way, and they notice, by following the spirit of the rule.

Cously

Nobody in PVP uses a macro, what you even talking about!

Vizier

Thogard wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

This is a subject that has always perplexed me. I've practiced animation cancelling and I've never been able to pull off 3 Hvy attacks with a couple skills and light attacks that all hit at the same time. When it happens to you all you see is one attack and the next thing you know your layed out pushing up Daisies.

People talk about the global cool down and while that sounds good, it sounds like there's a mechanism in place to stop or limit macros from being effective I'm just not convinced. Some say "oh it's lag" but then you run into the same player that does the same thing to you. If they keep repeating it at various times under various circumstances I'm supposed to believe the lag hit me each time just as the player started their rotation...every time?

Some say macros aren't viable because they have to be flexible and able to alter their strategy or tactics on the fly. Once again this sounds good and reasonable but if you think about it all we are talking about is making a bunch of attacks hit very quickly. That is pretty easy to insert into virtually any melee, especially if it results in the death of the other player.

And if it is "animation cancelling" explain to me how that can't also be macro'd and enhanced? I suspect there's more to this than some of the "naysayers" are letting on.

It would seem to me ZoS could evaluate timestamps on attack and sequences to determine whether or not it's legit.

I think you’re confusing HP and/or projectile desymchronizations with macros.

There are a few things you can do in this game that the client won’t register but the server will, and when everything is said and done you explode when the server tells your client all these things happened to you at the same time.

It isn’t related to macros though.

Fair enough. I'll admit I'm not expert. I will say this though. When I see and hear one attack that is actually 5 attacks or more, Hvy, Hvy, Incap, light, Killers Blade ( or some similar pattern) EVERY TIME from the same players who will claim "lag" or "animation cancelling" as the plausible reasoning I have to call BS. Whatever it is it's one of the elements of ESO that is killing the game for me...along with the actual lag.

Cronopoly

"Many" of the top players in PVP definitely use Macros for specific items such as a Streak/Dodgeroll where you don't even see the dodgeroll and of course Light Attack weaving with skills and some bar swapping. I don't personally as I cannot be bothered.

That said, many misinterpret what LAG in PVP can do and cause several attacks to hit at once Jibbing your character dead instantly. That's what I hate.

Scamh

i feel like players who don't want to improve look for external and mostly made up reasons for their failure

""it's not me, it's their macros and cheats"

whatever makes you sleep at night, i guess

Mayrael

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Macros in PVP (not to mention when latency goes up) is something you absolutely do not want. Their use is niche and very rare, and since ESO has a 1 second global cooldown, there is really no point.

Think of it this way, why do you think a player who doesn't know how to properly animation cancel or judge what combos to use at what time (speaking of PVP now) would be better off with a macro that he'd have to often manually manage and execute as well?

He'd have to create and execute quickly very different sequences of 'macro'd' skills and while doing so, would have been better off just playing the game normally without complicating it.

Since it's really not complicated to learn a few different ways of animation canceling, light attacking between skills, and then just practice it until it becomes the primary way of playing it.

This is NOT a complicated game, it's actually very easy to learn and practice.

It makes no sense, such players (the ones who are bad) will still be bad even with a macro. Sure, they will automate a thing or two under ideal conditions (and probably execute it clumsily) but they won't really improve much.

There are also many playstyles and builds that absolutely do not benefit from using a macro and if someone is, they're really gimping themselves.

Here's an example. I could macro my sorc to do hardened ward - light attack - harness magicka into a weapon swap to put me on the dps bar and then execute some basic dps rotation, and then what? I have to wait a few good seconds for all of that to happen, and I'm 100% untrained to play the game like that, it would drive me crazy to watch my character load up on sequences that I'm not even 100% sure he should be doing. You got me now?

A macro cannot adjust your tactics and human decisions are key for successful gameplay. At least in PVP.

I'm sure there are a few gankers here and there that have macro'd a couple of sequences, but you can't do anything about those and they are very rare anyway.

Pretty mutch this. Even if we talk about simple macro like bind to each skill one light attack it makes no sense as sometimes you would like to cancel the skill with just weapon swap. Next thing is technical issues to build 100% working macro. Floating delay and FPS spikes are making it quite difficult to code something like this. It reaches far beyond just macroing your mouse.

Kingslayer513

This thread is such a rofl.

I'd be willing to bet that maybe 1% of the ESO population even knows how to setup a macro, and 0.01% or less actually uses them. Like, have you interacted with the people in game?

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

I know macro's are being used by more and more all you have to do, is do utube search on how to set them up and most keyboard and mice can do them, the makers of them even give instructions on how to do macro's

jcm2606

Cronopoly wrote: »

"Many" of the top players in PVP definitely use Macros for specific items such as a Streak/Dodgeroll where you don't even see the dodgeroll and of course Light Attack weaving with skills and some bar swapping. I don't personally as I cannot be bothered.

That said, many misinterpret what LAG in PVP can do and cause several attacks to hit at once Jibbing your character dead instantly. That's what I hate.

That's not a macro. That's animation cancelling. Which is intended, and cannot be removed or fixed without ruining the game for everybody.

ResTandRespeC

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of posts, we must ask that posts from here be kept civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

@ZOS_GregoryV could we get a statement on what zos actually thinks about this though? macros kindve ruin the whole skill factor of the game tbh.

They really don't do anything. The information is clearly laid out by multiple users above

jcm2606

Vizier wrote: »

People talk about the global cool down and while that sounds good, it sounds like there's a mechanism in place to stop or limit macros from being effective I'm just not convinced. Some say "oh it's lag" but then you run into the same player that does the same thing to you. If they keep repeating it at various times under various circumstances I'm supposed to believe the lag hit me each time just as the player started their rotation...every time?

The GCD is an actual thing. Certain actions -- namely abilities -- "consume" the GCD when they are used, preventing you from using another action that "consumes" the GCD for about a second (the exact time is either 0.9s or 1.1s, can't remember). The GCD cannot be bypassed in any way, meaning that while the GCD is in effect, you can only perform actions that won't "consume" the GCD. You can test this yourself, and there are even addons that will show you the GCD (the one that immediately comes to mind is Show Global Cooldown, which causes your skill bar to pulse to the GCD timing).

Nothing can bypass the GCD. Not even animation cancelling. If you are dying to players within a single GCD window, then you aren't dying to the upfront damage their abilities deal. Perhaps they are using proc sets, which don't "consume" the GCD? Perhaps they are applying very heavy dot's to you, which, again, don't "consume" the GCD?

Vizier wrote: »

Some say macros aren't viable because they have to be flexible and able to alter their strategy or tactics on the fly. Once again this sounds good and reasonable but if you think about it all we are talking about is making a bunch of attacks hit very quickly. That is pretty easy to insert into virtually any melee, especially if it results in the death of the other player.

Macros aren't viable because ESO's combat is dynamic by design, especially in PVP.

You cannot create a macro to execute a full rotation/combo, because what if you needed to interrupt the rotation/combo to roll dodge or block? What if you misjudged the circumstance, and it requires a different combo? What if you get an ultimate up mid rotation/combo and wish to use it? There is no realistic way to create a macro to execute a full rotation/combo.

The only way to realistically use macros is to have a macro for each skill, so that you can animation cancel them like: Light Attack -> Skill -> Bash/Block, or Light Attack -> Skill, since bash/block cancelling isn't very useful now, and hasn't been in a while. And if you're going to those lengths to macro, why do it in the first place when you can easily do it yourself, and have total control over your character while doing it?

And no, you cannot have a full combo land quick enough to reduce the need to have control over your character. The GCD limits you to 1 second per ability in your combo, so the longer your combo, the longer you'll need to stay in the macro. Even 3 seconds, which is honestly a pretty short combo, is too much in the thick of things.

ResTandRespeC

Vizier wrote: »

This is a subject that has always perplexed me. I've practiced animation cancelling and I've never been able to pull off 3 Hvy attacks with a couple skills and light attacks that all hit at the same time. When it happens to you all you see is one attack and the next thing you know your layed out pushing up Daisies.

People talk about the global cool down and while that sounds good, it sounds like there's a mechanism in place to stop or limit macros from being effective I'm just not convinced. Some say "oh it's lag" but then you run into the same player that does the same thing to you. If they keep repeating it at various times under various circumstances I'm supposed to believe the lag hit me each time just as the player started their rotation...every time?

Some say macros aren't viable because they have to be flexible and able to alter their strategy or tactics on the fly. Once again this sounds good and reasonable but if you think about it all we are talking about is making a bunch of attacks hit very quickly. That is pretty easy to insert into virtually any melee, especially if it results in the death of the other player.

And if it is "animation cancelling" explain to me how that can't also be macro'd and enhanced? I suspect there's more to this than some of the "naysayers" are letting on.

It would seem to me ZoS could evaluate timestamps on attack and sequences to determine whether or not it's legit.

There are certain skills that are broken in this game, example being snipe. There is a common issue of being desnyced in this game, and certain skills, like snipe, seem to cause the desync more often. You'll know when its a desync as your resources get drained and you usually are alive for a second while actually dead. Light attacks/heavy attacks have a fairly common desync issue as well. Everyone else has explained why macro's are unhelpful, so refer to those posts for the rest .

Also the timestamps would be no different because there is no way to by pass the global cooldown.

lassitershawn

Uh when would a macro even be used? A gank? Everything else in PvP is far too dynamic. Most good PvE rotations are far too dynamic on a stationary dummy let alone in actual combat. Pretty sure this is near the bottom of the list for actual issues in ESO.

technohic

There’s so many misfires in this game from latency, even in solo PVE I just can’t see much working. Even the video showing weapon swap cancel it’s just him standing there doing just a couple of abilities. You have to chain a bunch in a row and react in practice