So lets just go ahead and get this out here, ZOS you realize Healing is going to be op right?

olsborg

Gnozo wrote: »

Defile is still strong and the sets need to have some type of cooldown. 100% uptime is way to strong .

I dont get your point tbh.

Agreed, everything should have a counter, atm there is no counter to defile, hardly even if youre a magplar.

umagon

Pijng wrote: »

Can someone explain what this thread is about? I dont get it. Some changes to defile and/or healing?

Lets assume the target has zero mitigation (oblivion damage), 40k health and 3k healing per second. The attacker is doing 4k oblivion damage per second. It would take them 10 seconds to kill the target if the target wasn’t healing. If the target is healing 3k of that oblivion damage gets countered. So now it takes 40 seconds kill the healing target. With defile currently on live and champ points the 3k healing per second becomes 1,650 healing per second. So now the target can only counter 1650 of the oblivion damage. Which means the target is taking 2350 oblivion damage per second, so it takes 17 seconds to kill the target.

Defile has a 10 second uptime on the highest end of the available skills. Defile would have to be cast twice. When they change it to 4 seconds it will have to be cast four times to achieve the same result if the damage remains constant. Players will have to do more damage in a shorter time frame or burn more resources to get the same result. But pvp is not a sterile environment when damage reduction, dodge, etc gets factored into the equation the amount of recasts and/or damage required to achieve the same result increases.

Pijng

umagon wrote: »

Pijng wrote: »

Can someone explain what this thread is about? I dont get it. Some changes to defile and/or healing?

Lets assume the target has zero mitigation (oblivion damage), 40k health and 3k healing per second. The attacker is doing 4k oblivion damage per second. It would take them 10 seconds to kill the target if the target wasn’t healing. If the target is healing 3k of that oblivion damage gets countered. So now it takes 40 seconds kill the healing target. With defile currently on live and champ points the 3k healing per second becomes 1,650 healing per second. So now the target can only counter 1650 of the oblivion damage. Which means the target is taking 2350 oblivion damage per second, so it takes 17 seconds to kill the target.

Defile has a 10 second uptime on the highest end of the available skills. Defile would have to be cast twice. When they change it to 4 seconds it will have to be cast four times to achieve the same result if the damage remains constant. Players will have to do more damage in a shorter time frame or burn more resources to get the same result. But pvp is not a sterile environment when damage reduction, dodge, etc gets factored into the equation the amount of recasts and/or damage required to achieve the same result increases.

Oh, so defile will be 4 secs, I got it.
"Pvp is not a sterile environment". Yeah, but the same applies to healing too.

Xsorus

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Funny how people talk about healing being OP... perhaps for MAGICKA classes... but Stamina classes are no where near being OP in healing. So if they're going to nerf healing, they best figure out a way to BUFF Stamina healing- particularly SELF-HEALING. Remember people, the majority player in this game are SOLO players and we rely on self-healing... so any nerf to healing dramatically impacts solo players. So ZOS needs to keep that in mind as well when making any adjustment to healing.

Stamina Nightblades and Sorcs have insane healing right now if built for it.

Take Stamina Sorcs

Slap on Forward Momentum, Crit Surge, Troll Kings, Seventh Legion (Or really any dps sets) and run a Heal Regen Pot.

you're not killing that without a stupid amount of dps or defile..

All stamina classes have insane healing when built for it. Thats because every single thing you just posted there besides surge (which other classes can replace with something else) is available to everyone.

Thats not a reason to have defile at such a poor state to the point where its hurting more actually balanced builds instead of those OP healing builds.

Not every class can replace surge with something else, right now stamblades and stamdens are only ones that can.

Templars and dks get pretty screwed in that regard.

Either way all that healing adds up and makes classes nigh unkillable if specced for dots. You basically end up needing stupid amounts of damage or defile and defile is getting nerfed.

That’s just the stamina side of things. Good luck killing any magicka sorc next patch cause while defile didn’t do any thing against healing Ward worth a damn it did work on their surge and if they were running rapids which a lot do now.

IAVITNI

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Funny how people talk about healing being OP... perhaps for MAGICKA classes... but Stamina classes are no where near being OP in healing. So if they're going to nerf healing, they best figure out a way to BUFF Stamina healing- particularly SELF-HEALING. Remember people, the majority player in this game are SOLO players and we rely on self-healing... so any nerf to healing dramatically impacts solo players. So ZOS needs to keep that in mind as well when making any adjustment to healing.

Stamina Nightblades and Sorcs have insane healing right now if built for it.

Take Stamina Sorcs

Slap on Forward Momentum, Crit Surge, Troll Kings, Seventh Legion (Or really any dps sets) and run a Heal Regen Pot.

you're not killing that without a stupid amount of dps or defile..

All stamina classes have insane healing when built for it. Thats because every single thing you just posted there besides surge (which other classes can replace with something else) is available to everyone.

Thats not a reason to have defile at such a poor state to the point where its hurting more actually balanced builds instead of those OP healing builds.

Not every class can replace surge with something else, right now stamblades and stamdens are only ones that can.

Templars and dks get pretty screwed in that regard.

Either way all that healing adds up and makes classes nigh unkillable if specced for dots. You basically end up needing stupid amounts of damage or defile and defile is getting nerfed.

That’s just the stamina side of things. Good luck killing any magicka sorc next patch cause while defile didn’t do any thing against healing Ward worth a damn it did work on their surge and if they were running rapids which a lot do now.

Templar's can still purge, so sDKs actually suffer more--though both still suffer the most. As for stamblade, idk why people think they have such great healing. Without Cloak, NB has horrible healing. StamSorc has horrible healing too.

Any spec that runs a Heal Regen Pot is sacrificing quite a lot. The stamsorc setup you provided isn't really going to have a relatively higher chance to kill anything either without running Major Defile itself.

Xsorus

IAVITNI wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Funny how people talk about healing being OP... perhaps for MAGICKA classes... but Stamina classes are no where near being OP in healing. So if they're going to nerf healing, they best figure out a way to BUFF Stamina healing- particularly SELF-HEALING. Remember people, the majority player in this game are SOLO players and we rely on self-healing... so any nerf to healing dramatically impacts solo players. So ZOS needs to keep that in mind as well when making any adjustment to healing.

Stamina Nightblades and Sorcs have insane healing right now if built for it.

Take Stamina Sorcs

Slap on Forward Momentum, Crit Surge, Troll Kings, Seventh Legion (Or really any dps sets) and run a Heal Regen Pot.

you're not killing that without a stupid amount of dps or defile..

All stamina classes have insane healing when built for it. Thats because every single thing you just posted there besides surge (which other classes can replace with something else) is available to everyone.

Thats not a reason to have defile at such a poor state to the point where its hurting more actually balanced builds instead of those OP healing builds.

Not every class can replace surge with something else, right now stamblades and stamdens are only ones that can.

Templars and dks get pretty screwed in that regard.

Either way all that healing adds up and makes classes nigh unkillable if specced for dots. You basically end up needing stupid amounts of damage or defile and defile is getting nerfed.

That’s just the stamina side of things. Good luck killing any magicka sorc next patch cause while defile didn’t do any thing against healing Ward worth a damn it did work on their surge and if they were running rapids which a lot do now.

Templar's can still purge, so sDKs actually suffer more--though both still suffer the most. As for stamblade, idk why people think they have such great healing. Without Cloak, NB has horrible healing. StamSorc has horrible healing too.

Any spec that runs a Heal Regen Pot is sacrificing quite a lot. The stamsorc setup you provided isn't really going to have a relatively higher chance to kill anything either without running Major Defile itself.

true on SDK compared to Purge
NB's get healing from the new Cloak and from Leeching strikes, both provide extra healing..you can make an extremely tanking high damage Nightblade running heavy and no stealth.

Stam Sorc you can go about it two ways, Either run Seventh and get extra healing or run Hulking/Spriggans and just wreck people..your healing is going to be high simply cause trolls/surge/momentum/hot pot/Vigor

Ragnarock41

casparian wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Defile is still strong and the sets need to have some type of cooldown. 100% uptime is way to strong .

I dont get your point tbh.

Don’t worry you will.

My impression was that one reason the full Defile rework was delayed until U20 is that they need time to figure out how to balance healing. They also seem to have taken to heart the feedback that healers feel redundant in PVE group content. There are going to be some healing changes to go along with the Defile changes.

Remember, the devs play nightblades, there's no way they're going to let healing become supremely powerful.

Let me say that healing in CP is absolutely crazy right now and defile is just as crazy. This results in dps builds being too weak without defile, and them being too strong with defile(stamblade as one example, access to defile with zero sacrifices, results in unmatched killing potential.). Healing reduction is still needed ,but defiles should be a countermeasure against healers, not something you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE in order to have any real chance of killing anybody.

I mean, people are scrapping their builds, 2h users for example trying to fit in sets like duroks or crest cause they can't kill tanky enemies. Not without turning into a cheese ball bleed build anyways, and bleed builds are another problem, especially ones involving master dual wield. Which is a topic for another day but combined with a defile this can completely shut down healing even on a stamDK or stamden.

This is a HUGE problem and this whole healing vs defile thing needs a rework.(and after that shieldstacking,bleeds,oblivion damage, all needs changes aswell.)

I just hope they don't somehow screw up stamDK even more because we have both healing received and healing done in our kit. One fatal flaw zenimax does it that they don't care about the damage caused to classes by their system reworks and rebalances. And stamina DK has both healing received and healing done, and this is essentially what makes this class tanky. Lets say they decided to make major mending a buff only affected healing done to others, then they would have to give something else to stamDks , otherwise it would break the class completely. This is just one example. Yes healing needs rework but what about all the playstyles that are built upon the current system?

I have a really, really bad feeling about all this but lets wait and see. Maybe U20 will be the magic bullet we all hoped for, but I have my doubts since zenimax didn't deliver what was expected for times and times again.

Xsorus

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Defile is still strong and the sets need to have some type of cooldown. 100% uptime is way to strong .

I dont get your point tbh.

Don’t worry you will.

My impression was that one reason the full Defile rework was delayed until U20 is that they need time to figure out how to balance healing. They also seem to have taken to heart the feedback that healers feel redundant in PVE group content. There are going to be some healing changes to go along with the Defile changes.

Remember, the devs play nightblades, there's no way they're going to let healing become supremely powerful.

I just hope they don't somehow screw up stamDK even more because we have both healing received and healing done in our kit. One fatal flaw zenimax does it that they don't care about the damage caused to classes by their system reworks and rebalances. And stamina DK has both healing received and healing done, and this is essentially what makes this class tanky.

I have a really, really bad feeling about all this but lets wait and see. Maybe U20 will be the magic bullet we all hoped for, but I have my doubts.

I will bet you 100% it will screw over the Stam DK somehow.

Every single patch that nerfs a mechanic somehow screws Stam Dk, trust me...I half expect healing to flat out kill stam dk's somehow in U20

IAVITNI

Xsorus wrote: »

true on SDK compared to Purge
NB's get healing from the new Cloak and from Leeching strikes, both provide extra healing..you can make an extremely tanking high damage Nightblade running heavy and no stealth.

Stam Sorc you can go about it two ways, Either run Seventh and get extra healing or run Hulking/Spriggans and just wreck people..your healing is going to be high simply cause trolls/surge/momentum/hot pot/Vigor

I'm still of the opinion that a heavy sDK will heal better than a heavy NB with Dark Cloak if both are Defiled. sDK gets huge boosts to healing whereas sNB gets none. A Heavy NB is still going to rely heavily on mobility via Shade to survive, and mobility is why sDK is so weak in open world right now. Heal-for-Heal sDK beats out sNB.

If a stamsorc runs Hulking+Spriggans they are going to be very squishy. Healing won't matter because they're dead. If it's just Spriggans, pen doesn't increase healing.

Surge really isn't as reliable as people think. That really only performs extremely well in duels. It falls off in effectiveness considerably in open-world and mobile-intense content as it will eat into Dark Deal. A lot of stamSorc mains only keep it on their overload bar. I've mained stamsorc myself for 2 patches now and I found Crit Surge to be a wasted slot outside duels and co-ordinated BGs.

Any other stam class can run trolls/momentum/hot pot/Vigor and have better survivability and some will have better damage.

The ONLY strengths sorc has against other classes are Dark Deal and mobility. Besides that, they are outclassed.

Ragnarock41

IAVITNI wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

true on SDK compared to Purge
NB's get healing from the new Cloak and from Leeching strikes, both provide extra healing..you can make an extremely tanking high damage Nightblade running heavy and no stealth.

Stam Sorc you can go about it two ways, Either run Seventh and get extra healing or run Hulking/Spriggans and just wreck people..your healing is going to be high simply cause trolls/surge/momentum/hot pot/Vigor

I'm still of the opinion that a heavy sDK will heal better than a heavy NB with Dark Cloak if both are Defiled. sDK gets huge boosts to healing whereas sNB gets none. A Heavy NB is still going to rely heavily on mobility via Shade to survive, and mobility is why sDK is so weak in open world right now. Heal-for-Heal sDK beats out sNB.

If a stamsorc runs Hulking+Spriggans they are going to be very squishy. Healing won't matter because they're dead. If it's just Spriggans, pen doesn't increase healing.

Surge really isn't as reliable as people think. That really only performs extremely well in duels. It falls off in effectiveness considerably in open-world and mobile-intense content as it will eat into Dark Deal. A lot of stamSorc mains only keep it on their overload bar. I've mained stamsorc myself for 2 patches now and I found Crit Surge to be a wasted slot outside duels and co-ordinated BGs.

Any other stam class can run trolls/momentum/hot pot/Vigor and have better survivability and some will have better damage.

The ONLY strengths sorc has against other classes are Dark Deal and mobility. Besides that, they are outclassed.

Are we talking about 1vX here or a fight involving equal numbers? I'm pretty sure when it comes to equal fights both heavy stamblade and heavy stamsorc has very good healing options despite the lack of major mending and despite the fact that both classes are meant for dealing damage, not outhealing damage. And on 1vX its obvious that mobility and evasion is the meta right now for obvious reasons.

What dooms stamDk compared to rest is not really lack of mobility(we got plenty actually, even the slowest stam class is very mobile.)
,its the lack of passives for dealing damage that stamblade and stamsorc has access to. We do considerably less amounts of damage, and dbos is just as good as leap which negates the fact that we have a good ultimate.

IZZEFlameLash

Elder Siege Online more like. Where we all just boringly stand still and siege each other to death. And no, healing is not going to be OP because Durok's still don't have a cooldown. I don't know what you are talking about.

Tasear

Interesting thoughts, I invite everyone to healers Discord share more concerns and feedback https://discord.gg/TfjSbu9

pieratsos

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Funny how people talk about healing being OP... perhaps for MAGICKA classes... but Stamina classes are no where near being OP in healing. So if they're going to nerf healing, they best figure out a way to BUFF Stamina healing- particularly SELF-HEALING. Remember people, the majority player in this game are SOLO players and we rely on self-healing... so any nerf to healing dramatically impacts solo players. So ZOS needs to keep that in mind as well when making any adjustment to healing.

Stamina Nightblades and Sorcs have insane healing right now if built for it.

Take Stamina Sorcs

Slap on Forward Momentum, Crit Surge, Troll Kings, Seventh Legion (Or really any dps sets) and run a Heal Regen Pot.

you're not killing that without a stupid amount of dps or defile..

All stamina classes have insane healing when built for it. Thats because every single thing you just posted there besides surge (which other classes can replace with something else) is available to everyone.

Thats not a reason to have defile at such a poor state to the point where its hurting more actually balanced builds instead of those OP healing builds.

Not every class can replace surge with something else, right now stamblades and stamdens are only ones that can.

Templars and dks get pretty screwed in that regard.

Either way all that healing adds up and makes classes nigh unkillable if specced for dots. You basically end up needing stupid amounts of damage or defile and defile is getting nerfed.

That’s just the stamina side of things. Good luck killing any magicka sorc next patch cause while defile didn’t do any thing against healing Ward worth a damn it did work on their surge and if they were running rapids which a lot do now.

No, DKs and templars are not screwed in that regard. Maybe they dont have something as good as surge but then again you dont even need surge to make a heavy stamina build with insane healing.

Also, mag sorcs and surge? Wut? Half of them completely dropped the skill for spell power pots? Surge requires constant dots and pressure to get something out of it. Something magicka sorcs dont have in their toolkit. They have small windows of huge burst. The rest of the time they are just casting shields or streaking around. Magicka sorcs are not stamina sorcs.

All these are completely irrelevant with the point i made tho. Defiles at their current state are not a counter to those insane healing builds. They are counter to everything. In fact those insane healing builds are the only builds that can handle defiles. The rest of them (balanced builds) are screwed the second they are defiled. They literally cant heal for sh*t. You do not counter the extreme by just ***** on everyone.

Twohothardware

Individual healing is fine, group healing is what needs to be nerfed. The healing you do to other players in Cyrodiil should be reduced by 100% instead of the current 50% for all healing. Group healing is way too high because of how it stacks across multiple players and it's what makes these huge zergs so hard to kill if they're organized.

Xsorus

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Funny how people talk about healing being OP... perhaps for MAGICKA classes... but Stamina classes are no where near being OP in healing. So if they're going to nerf healing, they best figure out a way to BUFF Stamina healing- particularly SELF-HEALING. Remember people, the majority player in this game are SOLO players and we rely on self-healing... so any nerf to healing dramatically impacts solo players. So ZOS needs to keep that in mind as well when making any adjustment to healing.

Stamina Nightblades and Sorcs have insane healing right now if built for it.

Take Stamina Sorcs

Slap on Forward Momentum, Crit Surge, Troll Kings, Seventh Legion (Or really any dps sets) and run a Heal Regen Pot.

you're not killing that without a stupid amount of dps or defile..

All stamina classes have insane healing when built for it. Thats because every single thing you just posted there besides surge (which other classes can replace with something else) is available to everyone.

Thats not a reason to have defile at such a poor state to the point where its hurting more actually balanced builds instead of those OP healing builds.

Not every class can replace surge with something else, right now stamblades and stamdens are only ones that can.

Templars and dks get pretty screwed in that regard.

Either way all that healing adds up and makes classes nigh unkillable if specced for dots. You basically end up needing stupid amounts of damage or defile and defile is getting nerfed.

That’s just the stamina side of things. Good luck killing any magicka sorc next patch cause while defile didn’t do any thing against healing Ward worth a damn it did work on their surge and if they were running rapids which a lot do now.

No, DKs and templars are not screwed in that regard. Maybe they dont have something as good as surge but then again you dont even need surge to make a heavy stamina build with insane healing.

Also, mag sorcs and surge? Wut? Half of them completely dropped the skill for spell power pots? Surge requires constant dots and pressure to get something out of it. Something magicka sorcs dont have in their toolkit. They have small windows of huge burst. The rest of the time they are just casting shields or streaking around. Magicka sorcs are not stamina sorcs.

All these are completely irrelevant with the point i made tho. Defiles at their current state are not a counter to those insane healing builds. They are counter to everything. In fact those insane healing builds are the only builds that can handle defiles. The rest of them (balanced builds) are screwed the second they are defiled. They literally cant heal for sh*t. You do not counter the extreme by just ***** on everyone.

Surge is an insane amount of healing if you run any form of dot which stam sorcs do.

It’s hit or miss if magicka sorcs run it. I personally dont run it because I backbar vma restro now. If I didn’t do that I’d run it for the extra healing it provides.

Defiles counter healing; after defiles are nerfed all those insane healing builds won’t be killable by any dot builds and all those regular builds will also be pretty much unkillable by dot builds as well.

I also don’t consider defile extreme. We had more powerful defiles in the past with less healing and it wasn’t overpowered.... now we have stupid amounts of healing and we are suddenly nerfing the one counter.

Remember defile use to be a base of 50%, and stacked with fasalla which was also 50% and minor defile also...

pieratsos

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Funny how people talk about healing being OP... perhaps for MAGICKA classes... but Stamina classes are no where near being OP in healing. So if they're going to nerf healing, they best figure out a way to BUFF Stamina healing- particularly SELF-HEALING. Remember people, the majority player in this game are SOLO players and we rely on self-healing... so any nerf to healing dramatically impacts solo players. So ZOS needs to keep that in mind as well when making any adjustment to healing.

Stamina Nightblades and Sorcs have insane healing right now if built for it.

Take Stamina Sorcs

Slap on Forward Momentum, Crit Surge, Troll Kings, Seventh Legion (Or really any dps sets) and run a Heal Regen Pot.

you're not killing that without a stupid amount of dps or defile..

All stamina classes have insane healing when built for it. Thats because every single thing you just posted there besides surge (which other classes can replace with something else) is available to everyone.

Thats not a reason to have defile at such a poor state to the point where its hurting more actually balanced builds instead of those OP healing builds.

Not every class can replace surge with something else, right now stamblades and stamdens are only ones that can.

Templars and dks get pretty screwed in that regard.

Either way all that healing adds up and makes classes nigh unkillable if specced for dots. You basically end up needing stupid amounts of damage or defile and defile is getting nerfed.

That’s just the stamina side of things. Good luck killing any magicka sorc next patch cause while defile didn’t do any thing against healing Ward worth a damn it did work on their surge and if they were running rapids which a lot do now.

No, DKs and templars are not screwed in that regard. Maybe they dont have something as good as surge but then again you dont even need surge to make a heavy stamina build with insane healing.

Also, mag sorcs and surge? Wut? Half of them completely dropped the skill for spell power pots? Surge requires constant dots and pressure to get something out of it. Something magicka sorcs dont have in their toolkit. They have small windows of huge burst. The rest of the time they are just casting shields or streaking around. Magicka sorcs are not stamina sorcs.

All these are completely irrelevant with the point i made tho. Defiles at their current state are not a counter to those insane healing builds. They are counter to everything. In fact those insane healing builds are the only builds that can handle defiles. The rest of them (balanced builds) are screwed the second they are defiled. They literally cant heal for sh*t. You do not counter the extreme by just ***** on everyone.

Surge is an insane amount of healing if you run any form of dot which stam sorcs do.

It’s hit or miss if magicka sorcs run it. I personally dont run it because I backbar vma restro now. If I didn’t do that I’d run it for the extra healing it provides.

Defiles counter healing; after defiles are nerfed all those insane healing builds won’t be killable by any dot builds and all those regular builds will also be pretty much unkillable by dot builds as well.

I also don’t consider defile extreme. We had more powerful defiles in the past with less healing and it wasn’t overpowered.... now we have stupid amounts of healing and we are suddenly nerfing the one counter.

Remember defile use to be a base of 50%, and stacked with fasalla which was also 50% and minor defile also...

Surge is indeed a stupid amount of healing for stam sorcs. However you do not even need that to have insane healing. Any stamina build can have insane healing. Magicka sorcs can not utilize surge in the same way stam sorcs do. They simply dont have enough pressure and dots. You could slot it and it would give you some extra healing but thats about it. Some extra healing, nothing OP.

You do not counter insane healing by ***** all over everyone in the game. Defile is way too easily accessible with way too much uptime and is way too strong. Dunno how you dont find it OP or why you think everyone has OP healing. Ive played with defile. Its completely and utterly stupid. You just hit people with major defile amplified by befoul and they literally cant heal for **** for the entire fight. Its very poorly designed.

However i do think that what they did with it is just lazy fixes and wont solve anything cause simply put they dont seem to know what they are doing. Defiles and snares/roots need an entire overhaul. Not a mindless nerf to the duration. They should be strong but they should be given to builds that actually need them. Not mindlessly given to everyone.

Vapirko

The only people that have to worry about defile changes are snipe spammers and people who hide in the shadows until incap is ready and have no other rotation. And tbh if that’s your play style then you have no business commenting on balance. There will still be sets with no defile cool down. Idk wtf people are complaining about but if you are whining about the defile changes you have no clue what you’re talking about. And no healing is not OP, sorry you can’t take down the person who knows how to use rally and vigor while escaping your Xv1 group.

Ragnarock41

Vapirko wrote: »

The only people that have to worry about defile changes are snipe spammers and people who hide in the shadows until incap is ready and have no other rotation. And tbh if that’s your play style then you have no business commenting on balance. There will still be sets with no defile cool down. Idk wtf people are complaining about but if you are whining about the defile changes you have no clue what you’re talking about. And no healing is not OP, sorry you can’t take down the person who knows how to use rally and vigor while escaping your Xv1 group.

Except with snipe and incap the damage is so potent that the defile nerf on snipe makes no difference, and afaik incap didn't even lost the defile. Meanwhile Reverb nerf is a considerable pressure lost from stamDKs, and other few stamsorcs/stamdens that used SnB builds. The actual worst part about this is that sets like duroks and fasalla are better than ever now.

pieratsos

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The only people that have to worry about defile changes are snipe spammers and people who hide in the shadows until incap is ready and have no other rotation. And tbh if that’s your play style then you have no business commenting on balance. There will still be sets with no defile cool down. Idk wtf people are complaining about but if you are whining about the defile changes you have no clue what you’re talking about. And no healing is not OP, sorry you can’t take down the person who knows how to use rally and vigor while escaping your Xv1 group.

Except with snipe and incap the damage is so potent that the defile nerf on snipe makes no difference, and afaik incap didn't even lost the defile. Meanwhile Reverb nerf is a considerable pressure lost from stamDKs, and other few stamsorcs/stamdens that used SnB builds. The actual worst part about this is that sets like duroks and fasalla are better than ever now.

Defile changes were dumb and lazy. Like always just a nerf across the board and hope for the best but lets not kid ourselves. 10 seconds of major defile is simply too damn long on any skill.

Emma_Overload

Daus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Where is all this awesome healing y'all are talking about? My Mag Sorc doesn't have jack except for the Resto Ult!

Twilight, Dark Exchange, Crit Surge.

Twilight gets killed fast, takes too long to resurrect and needs to be double-barred. Dark Exchange can be interrupted, is very slow and does not crit. Crit Surge is PATHETICALLY weak, has a cooldown and does not work well when you are on the defensive.

Xsorus

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Where is all this awesome healing y'all are talking about? My Mag Sorc doesn't have jack except for the Resto Ult!

Twilight, Dark Exchange, Crit Surge.

Twilight gets killed fast, takes too long to resurrect and needs to be double-barred. Dark Exchange can be interrupted, is very slow and does not crit. Crit Surge is PATHETICALLY weak, has a cooldown and does not work well when you are on the defensive.

Crit surge isn’t weak by any means. Same with dark exchange... both are what make stam sorcs insanely powerful.

Magicka it depends on what you’re running.

Xsorus

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Funny how people talk about healing being OP... perhaps for MAGICKA classes... but Stamina classes are no where near being OP in healing. So if they're going to nerf healing, they best figure out a way to BUFF Stamina healing- particularly SELF-HEALING. Remember people, the majority player in this game are SOLO players and we rely on self-healing... so any nerf to healing dramatically impacts solo players. So ZOS needs to keep that in mind as well when making any adjustment to healing.

Stamina Nightblades and Sorcs have insane healing right now if built for it.

Take Stamina Sorcs

Slap on Forward Momentum, Crit Surge, Troll Kings, Seventh Legion (Or really any dps sets) and run a Heal Regen Pot.

you're not killing that without a stupid amount of dps or defile..

All stamina classes have insane healing when built for it. Thats because every single thing you just posted there besides surge (which other classes can replace with something else) is available to everyone.

Thats not a reason to have defile at such a poor state to the point where its hurting more actually balanced builds instead of those OP healing builds.

Not every class can replace surge with something else, right now stamblades and stamdens are only ones that can.

Templars and dks get pretty screwed in that regard.

Either way all that healing adds up and makes classes nigh unkillable if specced for dots. You basically end up needing stupid amounts of damage or defile and defile is getting nerfed.

That’s just the stamina side of things. Good luck killing any magicka sorc next patch cause while defile didn’t do any thing against healing Ward worth a damn it did work on their surge and if they were running rapids which a lot do now.

No, DKs and templars are not screwed in that regard. Maybe they dont have something as good as surge but then again you dont even need surge to make a heavy stamina build with insane healing.

Also, mag sorcs and surge? Wut? Half of them completely dropped the skill for spell power pots? Surge requires constant dots and pressure to get something out of it. Something magicka sorcs dont have in their toolkit. They have small windows of huge burst. The rest of the time they are just casting shields or streaking around. Magicka sorcs are not stamina sorcs.

All these are completely irrelevant with the point i made tho. Defiles at their current state are not a counter to those insane healing builds. They are counter to everything. In fact those insane healing builds are the only builds that can handle defiles. The rest of them (balanced builds) are screwed the second they are defiled. They literally cant heal for sh*t. You do not counter the extreme by just ***** on everyone.

Surge is an insane amount of healing if you run any form of dot which stam sorcs do.

It’s hit or miss if magicka sorcs run it. I personally dont run it because I backbar vma restro now. If I didn’t do that I’d run it for the extra healing it provides.

Defiles counter healing; after defiles are nerfed all those insane healing builds won’t be killable by any dot builds and all those regular builds will also be pretty much unkillable by dot builds as well.

I also don’t consider defile extreme. We had more powerful defiles in the past with less healing and it wasn’t overpowered.... now we have stupid amounts of healing and we are suddenly nerfing the one counter.

Remember defile use to be a base of 50%, and stacked with fasalla which was also 50% and minor defile also...

Surge is indeed a stupid amount of healing for stam sorcs. However you do not even need that to have insane healing. Any stamina build can have insane healing. Magicka sorcs can not utilize surge in the same way stam sorcs do. They simply dont have enough pressure and dots. You could slot it and it would give you some extra healing but thats about it. Some extra healing, nothing OP.

You do not counter insane healing by ***** all over everyone in the game. Defile is way too easily accessible with way too much uptime and is way too strong. Dunno how you dont find it OP or why you think everyone has OP healing. Ive played with defile. Its completely and utterly stupid. You just hit people with major defile amplified by befoul and they literally cant heal for **** for the entire fight. Its very poorly designed.

However i do think that what they did with it is just lazy fixes and wont solve anything cause simply put they dont seem to know what they are doing. Defiles and snares/roots need an entire overhaul. Not a mindless nerf to the duration. They should be strong but they should be given to builds that actually need them. Not mindlessly given to everyone.

Magicka sorcs have access to surge and that one *** heal that’s from the passive. Together they add up. When you throw it together with healing ward and shield stacking you can stay up fairly easy. Granted I stopped using surge because rapid regen with vma backbar is better healing and sustain. If I was master destro I’d run surge though.

As for defile... I’ve had both stam sorcs and stamblades power through my defiles like it’s nothing. Yea it’ll Kill the lone vigor only heal user. But against a Stam Sorc or a stamblades stacking healing.. not really.

IZZEFlameLash

As I said, Durok's still won't have cooldown if this goes live as is. Nothing has changed except for Reverb Bash users. It is too early to determine that healing will be OP.

Ragnarock41

pieratsos wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The only people that have to worry about defile changes are snipe spammers and people who hide in the shadows until incap is ready and have no other rotation. And tbh if that’s your play style then you have no business commenting on balance. There will still be sets with no defile cool down. Idk wtf people are complaining about but if you are whining about the defile changes you have no clue what you’re talking about. And no healing is not OP, sorry you can’t take down the person who knows how to use rally and vigor while escaping your Xv1 group.

Except with snipe and incap the damage is so potent that the defile nerf on snipe makes no difference, and afaik incap didn't even lost the defile. Meanwhile Reverb nerf is a considerable pressure lost from stamDKs, and other few stamsorcs/stamdens that used SnB builds. The actual worst part about this is that sets like duroks and fasalla are better than ever now.

Defile changes were dumb and lazy. Like always just a nerf across the board and hope for the best but lets not kid ourselves. 10 seconds of major defile is simply too damn long on any skill.

yes, 10 seconds defile is too long , but 4 seconds on reverb is pathetic, especially for an utility CC, which isn't as ez pz as snipe or incap, or duroks. It will be over by the time your enemy breaks free and heals himself. Can you spam it? yes. At the cost of the opportunity to kill your enemy, cause spamming it means you hit reverb literally every 4 seconds, %25 of your GCDs.

All zenimax did was yet again cripple stamDks who rely on reverb bash. So good job to @ZOS_Wrobel , you did again. Another blanket nerf that only makes my life worse. Kudos to you, sir.

Stibbons

Yes yes healing is best think in pvp and wvw. Pretty weird because we all know templar healers suck in pvp and wvw. Hitloads of mag sorcerers, stam nightblades and stam dragonknights overpopulate wvw and all pvp

Stibbons

umagon wrote: »

Pijng wrote: »

Can someone explain what this thread is about? I dont get it. Some changes to defile and/or healing?

Lets assume the target has zero mitigation (oblivion damage), 40k health and 3k healing per second. The attacker is doing 4k oblivion damage per second. It would take them 10 seconds to kill the target if the target wasn’t healing. If the target is healing 3k of that oblivion damage gets countered. So now it takes 40 seconds kill the healing target. With defile currently on live and champ points the 3k healing per second becomes 1,650 healing per second. So now the target can only counter 1650 of the oblivion damage. Which means the target is taking 2350 oblivion damage per second, so it takes 17 seconds to kill the target.

Defile has a 10 second uptime on the highest end of the available skills. Defile would have to be cast twice. When they change it to 4 seconds it will have to be cast four times to achieve the same result if the damage remains constant. Players will have to do more damage in a shorter time frame or burn more resources to get the same result. But pvp is not a sterile environment when damage reduction, dodge, etc gets factored into the equation the amount of recasts and/or damage required to achieve the same result increases.

Sure you can try to win fight only by healing then that would be somewhat right. You actually have to do damage to kill someone and many pple can use cc too.

Ragnaroek93

Wow... we aren't in the Malubeth, heavy armor and vitality pots meta anymore, get real. Do you live in the past?

The reason why stamnb is performing well is because they don't rely on healing as much as other classes. What the heck are you talking about stamnbs stacking healing? This is a joke, right?

SilverWF

ADarklore wrote: »

Funny how people talk about healing being OP... perhaps for MAGICKA classes... but Stamina classes are no where near being OP in healing. So if they're going to nerf healing, they best figure out a way to BUFF Stamina healing- particularly SELF-HEALING. Remember people, the majority player in this game are SOLO players and we rely on self-healing... so any nerf to healing dramatically impacts solo players. So ZOS needs to keep that in mind as well when making any adjustment to healing.

Vigor is already strongest non-class healing skill atm, dunno what you are talking about.
It literally 2 times stronger than Regeneration (and morphs).

Vapirko

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The only people that have to worry about defile changes are snipe spammers and people who hide in the shadows until incap is ready and have no other rotation. And tbh if that’s your play style then you have no business commenting on balance. There will still be sets with no defile cool down. Idk wtf people are complaining about but if you are whining about the defile changes you have no clue what you’re talking about. And no healing is not OP, sorry you can’t take down the person who knows how to use rally and vigor while escaping your Xv1 group.

Except with snipe and incap the damage is so potent that the defile nerf on snipe makes no difference, and afaik incap didn't even lost the defile. Meanwhile Reverb nerf is a considerable pressure lost from stamDKs, and other few stamsorcs/stamdens that used SnB builds. The actual worst part about this is that sets like duroks and fasalla are better than ever now.

Well reverb bash will be a good excample of a skill with major defile appplied to it imo after the patch. While lethal arrow, incap and the new cyro ward will be OP.

Dracane

frostz417 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Where is all this awesome healing y'all are talking about? My Mag Sorc doesn't have jack except for the Resto Ult!

You have 3 overpowered shields that you spam. Healing Ward is the most broken heal in the game. It’s not affected by defile or anything. Sorcs are ez mode because you can have .0000000000000001% health and just hit healing Ward, harness, and hardened Ward and boom you have 30k shields and all your health is safely returned since healing Ward is under those 2 broken ass shields. Sorc’s have the best survivability due to the fact that they’re unaffected by defile. So I have no idea why you’re even complaining about the easiest class to play in the game.

Very true. Healing ward has always been OP and the solo carry of Sorcerers. I dream of the day where this crap is finally nerfed, removed or made unstackable. My friends will tell you, I am constantly cursing about healing ward spammers in Teamspeak.

However, your whining about shields in general seems pitiful to me. While shields may not take crit damage, they have 0 resistance, so it doesn't really matter. I see no difference between Nightblade and Sorcerer survivability. Nightblades are just as tanky with their 2 shields. By the time you have stacked your 3rd shield, the others will already be burned. There is little logical reason to stack more than 2, but logic has long been lost with those full sustain Sorcerers.