Why Zaan Is Bad

Valrien

CaliMade wrote: »

You guys are trying way too hard to justify this set. Counterable or not, it does too much damage for somthin so damn free. Unless you play the game with your eyes closed you know absolutely nothing is as cut and dry as "move away from them".

Stop comparing it to skoria, skoria does maybe 4k on decent players at best. and last time i checked no other 2pc forces you to outplay it. Your reaching and its very noticeable.

Most 2 pc sets used in PvP require counterplay though

Mister_DMC

Zaan is very strong, situational in PvE but in PvP 2 ticks is usually enough to secure a kill. I use it on a dark Elf half baked stamplar effectively...nuff said.

Shadowmaster

CaliMade wrote: »

Counterable or not, it does too much damage for somthin so damn free.

Dude you can't walk away? Sprint away? Streak away? Dodge roll away?

Barely anyone is dying to Zaan anymore unless they are in BGs and out of stam. They hardcore nerfed the last 2 ticks with EB/Zaan

ol_BANK_lo

elijafire wrote: »

Whenever you are looking at item you have to look at what it replaces. Experienced MMORPGers will all tell you that real application almost always differs drastically from target dummies which seems like where ZoS is getting their primary feedback.

Why Zaan is bad:

* Too easily broken/countered (dodge roll, cleanse, distance)
* Too small percentage chance of proc
* Too short a range in order to proc
* Too long of a time to be forced to stay at a certain range of the target
* Too slow of a buildup
* Too visible in PvP so easy to counter (unless you are wearing Zaan and aren't sure whose proc it is)
* You are giving up Valky Skoria which has none of these problems and does very similar dps
* You are giving up Valky Skoria which has none of these problems and gives you more survivability

I've died to Zaan twice in PvP once because I was semi afk holding block on a flag in a BG and the other because I was wearing Zaan and thought it was mine that had procced. Zaan fails.
I've had Zaan proc 5 times in what I consider "hard" fights vet DLC dungeons and trials out of those 5 times zero of them have gotten all ticks off because of game mechanics. Conversely my Valkyn procs all the time with a satisfying BOOM and I can now forget about it.


TLDNR: Taking the Zaan monster helmet set over Valkyn Skoria is a DPS loss in every scenario except fights that are easy and the DPS gain become irrelevant. In order to be viable this set will need to be buffed considerably including its proc range and its cleansability as well as reverted to it's original state.

So why did ZoS decide to nerf Zaan over and over in spite of it being a very niche (just okay) set from the start? My observations are that ZoS relies heavily on inexperienced testers who use a set on a target dummy then declare it to be "over powered" without any further testing or real experience. This set should have been tested in most if not all difficult content such as DLC hard modes and pvp extensively before making it worse (now useless) with needless nerfs.

Your TLDR is almost as long as the original post. My answer to all this these are all true statements, but it was never intended to be the best set for all occasions. It does exactly what it is supposed to do - be the best single target flame set when it can be utilized. And there are plenty of boss fights in trials where this works. Valkyn is great; Grothdarr is great; Slimecraw is great; Zaan is great....but all in certain circumstances. Zaan does more damage over the course of a fight when it can be properly utilized, but there are other sets better in specific situations.

As for pvp, one might argue Zaan was built for stabile pve boss fights where one doesn't have to move much. Zaan by itself is counterable, but it is nasty when you are fighting multiple people and it procs. I don't see it used often (a few times in BGs), but it has it's place for the right build.

TLDR; let's stop talking about Zaan. Really old news.

testd4n1

CaliMade wrote: »

You guys are trying way too hard to justify this set. Counterable or not, it does too much damage for somthin so damn free. Unless you play the game with your eyes closed you know absolutely nothing is as cut and dry as "move away from them".

Stop comparing it to skoria, skoria does maybe 4k on decent players at best. and last time i checked no other 2pc forces you to outplay it. Your reaching and its very noticeable.

You're*

The_Brosteen

You missed the part when zaan doesnt break from los.
Although I agree zaan can be mediocre.
Unless you and 4 of your closest friends are fighting one person and zaan procs on them but doesn't break from los and it kills them. Then I can see why people keep wearing it for Xv1 situations.

Toc de Malsvi

Haven't had the opportunity to test this on the latest PTS. However on live its far from weak in PVP. That is unless you are a noob(very inexperienced) who doesn't know how to move. Dodgeroll does not take you out of zaan, sprint would only if the attacker stands relatively still or doesn't chase you. Gap close ensures 100% of Zaan will hit them, if you are wearing Zaan you should be slotting a gap closer. If you don't know how to stay on top of someone who is running away from you, what can I say L2P.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Zaan is one of those sets that triggers forum rage from bad players in PVP, hence the nerf, because they see huge tool tips in their recaps, but fail to understand how easy it is to counter.

In PVE, it is good for dummy parses and mDKs. The range is barely long enough for extended melee range, so mag players can make use of it in certain stack and burns, but it's barely worth it. After the range nerf, it will never be worth it unless you are magic/melee, or parsing on a dummy. Skoria outperforms with even minimal movement in the fight.

In other words, this a PVP rage induced nerf, that wont change much of anything in PVP, but takes it from niche to useless in PVE.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

CaliMade wrote: »

You guys are trying way too hard to justify this set. Counterable or not, it does too much damage for somthin so damn free. Unless you play the game with your eyes closed you know absolutely nothing is as cut and dry as "move away from them".

Stop comparing it to skoria, skoria does maybe 4k on decent players at best. and last time i checked no other 2pc forces you to outplay it. Your reaching and its very noticeable.

Stop calling proc sets free damage. They are not. You pay the price of stats. With a two piece set, I can get two magic boosts and a stam boost (1 domi, 1 grothdar), or I can slot zaan (1 crit and a proc). Crit boosts are pretty garbage in PVP, so I am trading over 3k resources for an occasional and easily counterable proc. I am not saying that procs cant be really strong, but they absolutely come with a trade off. If you load up on proc sets (which I dont, but have tried in the past), your raw stats will stink, which means your defense and the rest of your offensive toolkit will suffer accordingly.

Ender1310

Zaans has won fights for me where all I could do was out play pressure. Literally waited for zaans to proc once he started realizing their health was going down unload and cc boom end of match.

Tryxus

Zaan cured me of my vampirism I guess I got too tired from being a not-so-mobile Magicka character that keeps getting rooted, Fossilized or Leaped upon by Mag DKs with Zaan in duels.

Mureel

Something lame: I literally have rd or run away from my own Zaan Proc many times, because I really thought it was someone else's on me because it proc behind me after a LA as I was moving!

I'm an idiot though. Your mileage may vary xD

Gprime31

Chibs wrote: »

Zaan is mainly a DPS test set kinda similar to Ilambris. I’ve found that Skoria is better in pretty much any dungeon/pvp/bg/trial/any content you can think of scenario. Zaan is BIS at inflating dps numbers on target dummies.

Wrong, I can’t hit 53k on anything else but zaan. That includes dungeons, trials and 3m dummy. You must be doing something wrong.

Waffennacht

At this point the META has shifted to where Zaan's effectiveness has been reduced imo

Krayl

These posts are so infuriatingly annoying.

Fact of the matter is that YES of course there is one set like skoria that is all around better, but zaan is higher dps on exactly the fights you describe, so there's no reason not to have it. On my mag DK I've got skorial, zaan, grothdarr, and infernal guardian on me for the situation.

Saying it's a 'bad' set is misleading and frankly a lie.

barshemm

The plays where zaans is dangerous is the fossilize spamming dk or the templar that pops it in a soul assault. Streak and dodge roll doesn't take you out of range, you have to separate more distance which especially when you have a soul assault on you isn't happening.

josiahva

elijafire wrote: »

Whenever you are looking at item you have to look at what it replaces. Experienced MMORPGers will all tell you that real application almost always differs drastically from target dummies which seems like where ZoS is getting their primary feedback.

Why Zaan is bad:

* Too easily broken/countered (dodge roll, cleanse, distance)
* Too small percentage chance of proc
* Too short a range in order to proc
* Too long of a time to be forced to stay at a certain range of the target
* Too slow of a buildup
* Too visible in PvP so easy to counter (unless you are wearing Zaan and aren't sure whose proc it is)
* You are giving up Valky Skoria which has none of these problems and does very similar dps
* You are giving up Valky Skoria which has none of these problems and gives you more survivability

I've died to Zaan twice in PvP once because I was semi afk holding block on a flag in a BG and the other because I was wearing Zaan and thought it was mine that had procced. Zaan fails.
I've had Zaan proc 5 times in what I consider "hard" fights vet DLC dungeons and trials out of those 5 times zero of them have gotten all ticks off because of game mechanics. Conversely my Valkyn procs all the time with a satisfying BOOM and I can now forget about it.


TLDNR: Taking the Zaan monster helmet set over Valkyn Skoria is a DPS loss in every scenario except fights that are easy and the DPS gain become irrelevant. In order to be viable this set will need to be buffed considerably including its proc range and its cleansability as well as reverted to it's original state.

So why did ZoS decide to nerf Zaan over and over in spite of it being a very niche (just okay) set from the start? My observations are that ZoS relies heavily on inexperienced testers who use a set on a target dummy then declare it to be "over powered" without any further testing or real experience. This set should have been tested in most if not all difficult content such as DLC hard modes and pvp extensively before making it worse (now useless) with needless nerfs.

Yes, Zaan always listens to the whiners who want to nerf everything. Look at Sload's as an example...its 5k damage....but people are whining because they are getting multiple sload's stacked on them(which would be no different than getting multiple viper procs if that were the flavor of the month). Its not 5k damage that is killing them(regardless of whether or not they are a shield stacker) Its the fact that multiple people are using sloads and stacking procs. This has nothing to do with Sload's itself and everything to do with the Meta. These same people say nothing about the "free" damage from the implosion proc, even though it does just as much damage as Sloads at about the same proc chance in burst rather than DOT form. Why? Because mag-sorc isnt the overwhelming meta(and the biggest anti-sload whiners are playing mag-sorcs themselves). I don't like Sloads myself, I dont use it, just like I dont like or use Zaan...but ZOS is unable to objectively make decisions based on what is actually happening vs. people whining because something appeared on their death recap.

Girl_Number8

Odovacar wrote: »

#LongLiveValkynSkoria

#NerfValkynSkoria

Mojomonkeyman

Tryxus wrote: »

Zaan cured me of my vampirism I guess I got too tired from being a not-so-mobile Magicka character that keeps getting rooted, Fossilized or Leaped upon by Mag DKs with Zaan in duels.

Well, you did the same to other poor fellows being in the same situation....

A set that can dish out enoug hdamage to kill by its own has no place in any pvp game, period. Its the opposite of fairplay vs non-mobile classes.

Yasha

Lexxypwns wrote: »

You’re Zaan’ing wrong. It is extremely strong in PvP, CC as soon as it procs, if it proc’ed on an opponent under 70% HP they die.

Bonus points on NB where you can use incap and minor berserk to increase its damage.

Zaan is absurd when used properly, it’s far more devastating than even Sload’s. If you CC someone and drop your burst during a zaan then you won that fight.

It also doesn’t always render properly which gives you more uncountered ticks. On console it’s not uncommon to get your whole zaan proc to go off without the beam showing up

That is exactly my experience as well, in particular I think it needs a better audio or visual tell- I never see or hear anything when it hits me and only realize I have been "zaaned" when i see the 15K-plus zaan damage in my death recap.

Meanwhile Sloads barely does enough damage to get past a HoT...

Tryxus

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Zaan cured me of my vampirism I guess I got too tired from being a not-so-mobile Magicka character that keeps getting rooted, Fossilized or Leaped upon by Mag DKs with Zaan in duels.

Well, you did the same to other poor fellows being in the same situation....

A set that can dish out enoug hdamage to kill by its own has no place in any pvp game, period. Its the opposite of fairplay vs non-mobile classes.

1 Battleground. The only time I ever used Zaan, just to try it out. And yet somehow I'm the... what was it that you called me again? Tryxus the little Zaan ***? Really mature dude

I do agree tho: a 2 piece set that can dish out 20k+ damage (nearing 30k to vampires) is way too much

Mojomonkeyman

Tryxus wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Zaan cured me of my vampirism I guess I got too tired from being a not-so-mobile Magicka character that keeps getting rooted, Fossilized or Leaped upon by Mag DKs with Zaan in duels.

Well, you did the same to other poor fellows being in the same situation....

A set that can dish out enoug hdamage to kill by its own has no place in any pvp game, period. Its the opposite of fairplay vs non-mobile classes.

1 Battleground. The only time I ever used Zaan, just to try it out. And yet somehow I'm the... what was it that you called me again? Tryxus the little Zaan ***? Really mature dude

I do agree tho: a 2 piece set that can dish out 20k+ damage (nearing 30k to vampires) is way too much

Yeah, Zaan is basically the only thing that gets me still triggered in this game. Not denying it.

Tryxus

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Zaan cured me of my vampirism I guess I got too tired from being a not-so-mobile Magicka character that keeps getting rooted, Fossilized or Leaped upon by Mag DKs with Zaan in duels.

Well, you did the same to other poor fellows being in the same situation....

A set that can dish out enoug hdamage to kill by its own has no place in any pvp game, period. Its the opposite of fairplay vs non-mobile classes.

1 Battleground. The only time I ever used Zaan, just to try it out. And yet somehow I'm the... what was it that you called me again? Tryxus the little Zaan ***? Really mature dude

I do agree tho: a 2 piece set that can dish out 20k+ damage (nearing 30k to vampires) is way too much

Yeah, Zaan is basically the only thing that gets me still triggered in this game. Not denying it.

First time I came across Zaan was at the duelling spot, where a bunch of Mag DKs and Magplars used this. I got a few death recaps with 27k+ damage from those fights (and I got triggered a time or two there too).

"Get some distance between you and the Zaan user" was the general consensus on counterplay. But that's easier said than done if you're on a Magicka char with barely any mobility. Which is why I got rid of my vampirism, to make the damage more managable (but it's still too much)

And that battleground pretty much confirmed my sentiment on the set. That the damage from it is too much

bg22

Bc it hits for like 17k in pvp. That’s stupid af

Lexxypwns

elijafire wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

You’re Zaan’ing wrong. It is extremely strong in PvP, CC as soon as it procs, if it proc’ed on an opponent under 70% HP they die.

Bonus points on NB where you can use incap and minor berserk to increase its damage.

Zaan is absurd when used properly, it’s far more devastating than even Sload’s. If you CC someone and drop your burst during a zaan then you won that fight.

It also doesn’t always render properly which gives you more uncountered ticks. On console it’s not uncommon to get your whole zaan proc to go off without the beam showing up

This is false. CC is unreliable. If you manage to CC someone long enough to get a full zaan proc off on them you could light attack them to death and don't need a monster helmet proc.

IDK about console, on PC it shows instantly and I can choose to get out of it or mitigate it.

Nope, first zaan tick you CC, which means you eat mandatory 3 ticks, which is ~12k damage along with whatever other damage you’ve got during that time period.

I actually run zaan, this isn’t speculation, this is how I reliably get kills with zaan.

Mojomonkeyman

Tryxus wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Zaan cured me of my vampirism I guess I got too tired from being a not-so-mobile Magicka character that keeps getting rooted, Fossilized or Leaped upon by Mag DKs with Zaan in duels.

Well, you did the same to other poor fellows being in the same situation....

A set that can dish out enoug hdamage to kill by its own has no place in any pvp game, period. Its the opposite of fairplay vs non-mobile classes.

1 Battleground. The only time I ever used Zaan, just to try it out. And yet somehow I'm the... what was it that you called me again? Tryxus the little Zaan ***? Really mature dude

I do agree tho: a 2 piece set that can dish out 20k+ damage (nearing 30k to vampires) is way too much

Yeah, Zaan is basically the only thing that gets me still triggered in this game. Not denying it.

First time I came across Zaan was at the duelling spot, where a bunch of Mag DKs and Magplars used this. I got a few death recaps with 27k+ damage from those fights (and I got triggered a time or two there too).

"Get some distance between you and the Zaan user" was the general consensus on counterplay. But that's easier said than done if you're on a Magicka char with barely any mobility. Which is why I got rid of my vampirism, to make the damage more managable (but it's still too much)

And that battleground pretty much confirmed my sentiment on the set. That the damage from it is too much

Yeah, same story here more or less - Zaan made me drop vampirism. I still have somewhere a 31k Zaan recap screenshotted. Anyways, apologies for the harsh words during that particular match, nothing personal.

Vapirko

Lol is this a joke? Zaan is very strong in PvP, strong damage proc sets should have limited and specific conditions, unlike sloads for example.

Vapirko

Tryxus wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Zaan cured me of my vampirism I guess I got too tired from being a not-so-mobile Magicka character that keeps getting rooted, Fossilized or Leaped upon by Mag DKs with Zaan in duels.

Well, you did the same to other poor fellows being in the same situation....

A set that can dish out enoug hdamage to kill by its own has no place in any pvp game, period. Its the opposite of fairplay vs non-mobile classes.

1 Battleground. The only time I ever used Zaan, just to try it out. And yet somehow I'm the... what was it that you called me again? Tryxus the little Zaan ***? Really mature dude

I do agree tho: a 2 piece set that can dish out 20k+ damage (nearing 30k to vampires) is way too much

Yeah, Zaan is basically the only thing that gets me still triggered in this game. Not denying it.

First time I came across Zaan was at the duelling spot, where a bunch of Mag DKs and Magplars used this. I got a few death recaps with 27k+ damage from those fights (and I got triggered a time or two there too).

"Get some distance between you and the Zaan user" was the general consensus on counterplay. But that's easier said than done if you're on a Magicka char with barely any mobility. Which is why I got rid of my vampirism, to make the damage more managable (but it's still too much)

And that battleground pretty much confirmed my sentiment on the set. That the damage from it is too much

It’s even easier said than done on stamina. If you get hit with crippling grasp or rune cage while trying to escape from Zaan while also being pelted with other abilities or dots, that’s no easy task to mitigate while also trying to put distance it. And any good opponent will have multiple dots or a burst lines up on top of Zaan. Ever fought a decent magblade who procs Zaan and hits you with crippling grasp, assassins will and maybe even incap? Or tried to heal through Zaan as you try to get away while dealing with major defile? Whenever people come in here defending sets like sloads and Zaan as easy to deal with it almost immediately puts up a red flag that says, “I don’t fight good players, and usually out number my opponents.”

Ankael07

Like most other proc set its misused by Nightblades. A combination of Incap + Merciless Resolve increases its damage by 28% + Major Defile. Couple that with guaranteed Caluurion proc from stealth in melee range its impossible not to find yourself in execute range instantly unless youre really tanky or expecting the ambush.

Heka Cain

Only dummies use dummies!