What's wrong with Rune Cage since Summerset?

Seraphayel

Can someone explain to me why Rune Cage is so powerful since Summerset and basically every Sorc is using it now?

Minalan

It does damage now when you break it, when it probably shouldn’t.

BohnT

It's a cheap, delayed, undodgeable, unblockable, uncloakable stun with high range, twice the tooltip of fossilize, that is hard to break and makes it very easy to hit curse, meteor and frags on a target that can't defend himself.

It's just a no brainer at this point.

Seraphayel

And that's it? I mean why wasn't it used as often before?

Tarrocan

Seraphayel wrote: »

And that's it? I mean why wasn't it used as often before?

I know, it's not enough lol

Maulkin

Seraphayel wrote: »

And that's it? I mean why wasn't it used as often before?

Some people used it last patch. But the total damage of your combo was lower because it did no damage, so most people used Reach instead Cage.

Also space bar space is tight on Sorc and pre-Summerset when you couldn’t really run a monster 2-piece sustain with Dark Conversion was essential. This patch you can run Engine Guardian and not have to rely on Dark Conversion like before.

Finally, if you go even further back, it used to self-break on any damage taken. So if the target had a DoT you were just handing free immunity. I don’t remember when exactly that changed but that change made it a viable CC basically.

Feanor

Maulkin wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

And that's it? I mean why wasn't it used as often before?

Some people used it last patch. But the total damage of your combo was lower because it did no damage, so most people used Reach instead Cage.

Also space bar space is tight on Sorc and pre-Summerset when you couldn’t really run a monster 2-piece sustain with Dark Conversion was essential. This patch you can run Engine Guardian and not have to rely on Dark Conversion like before.

Finally, if you go even further back, it used to self-break on any damage taken. So if the target had a DoT you were just handing free immunity. I don’t remember when exactly that changed but that change made it a viable CC basically.

It was changed with 3.2.5 - Clockwork City. Before it was a 30 second disorient that did break on any direct damage. Since the only ground based DoT Sorc has is Liquid Lightning that nobody slots in PvP it felt like it broke on any damage. It was rather useless.

I have been using RC since 3.2.5. and the combination with Meteor was always great. The changes with Summerset added 2 to 4k burst to it and a lot of Sorcs replaced Reach with RC - that’s why it’s more visible now and why the QQ is there.

Azurya

NERF

Seraphayel

Tarrocan wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

And that's it? I mean why wasn't it used as often before?

I know, it's not enough lol

I meant regarding the changes. Something must have happened that it became so popular with Summerset.

Apherius

It was fine before.

Maybe they should put the current rune cage damage on crystal frag ? This would make crystal frag great again ( the crystal would stay avoidable )

Biro123

Really, it was always underrated, so hardly used.. now it's overrated, so used too much and hurting everyone..

A bit like sloads, really. So much is down to perception/fotm.

lucky_Sage

but remember that same ability was so op for a magdk that as still less range. but its not op a on magsorc with more range and timed burst

NBrookus

Seraphayel wrote: »

Tarrocan wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

And that's it? I mean why wasn't it used as often before?

I know, it's not enough lol

I meant regarding the changes. Something must have happened that it became so popular with Summerset.

They added extra damage which is unavoidable even if you CC break. It tipped the balance away from Master's Destro as the best option, without the necessity of farming vDSA.

People always hop on the new shiny toy, but in this case there is zero reason why a sorc wouldn't use it. If you can count to 6 you can drop a 30k uncounterable damage burst combo on top of someone's head.

Asardes

1v1 it's not a big deal, but if you're fighting multiple enemies and a sorc comes and puts that on you, and your stamina is already low because you've been blocking & dodging those you're pretty much done, especially if you're magicka. It's totally unbalanced IMO. At least fossilize has only an 8m range and it's 30% more expensive, with the break free damage being equal I think; so if you stay ranged it can't get you even if it's undodgeable as well. They should add some sort of counter-play to Rune Cage to make it balanced, for example make it a projectile that can be dodged, even if it's fast like Crystal Fragments for example, or a peaceable invisible trap, though that will be too similar to Daedric Mines.

Strider__Roshin

lucky_Sage wrote: »

but remember that same ability was so op for a magdk that as still less range. but its not op a on magsorc with more range and timed burst

Well obviously the best solution to the Rune Cage problem is to nerf Fossilize more.

mb10

Lol.

Next to keeps the range of it is like 40 meters
Cheap
Hard CC
No way of seeing it coming
Cannot block
Cannot dodge
Does a lot of damage when you break
Stuns for 5 seconds


An absolute f****** joke in PVP atm. The developer who's idea this is needs to be named and shamed because its genuinely ridiculous. Its very difficult to defend against if youre a magicka build that has to be careful of your stamina pool.

It is not a L2P issue because the high amounts of damage and sustain sorcs have in PVP atm makes it even more difficult to turn the fight around.

Btw every single sorc is using the dark curse with rune cage and meteor combo lol if the going gets tough? Time to streak and spam 200 shields.

wozborne

Feanor wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

And that's it? I mean why wasn't it used as often before?

Some people used it last patch. But the total damage of your combo was lower because it did no damage, so most people used Reach instead Cage.

Also space bar space is tight on Sorc and pre-Summerset when you couldn’t really run a monster 2-piece sustain with Dark Conversion was essential. This patch you can run Engine Guardian and not have to rely on Dark Conversion like before.

Finally, if you go even further back, it used to self-break on any damage taken. So if the target had a DoT you were just handing free immunity. I don’t remember when exactly that changed but that change made it a viable CC basically.

It was changed with 3.2.5 - Clockwork City. Before it was a 30 second disorient that did break on any direct damage. Since the only ground based DoT Sorc has is Liquid Lightning that nobody slots in PvP it felt like it broke on any damage. It was rather useless.

I have been using RC since 3.2.5. and the combination with Meteor was always great. The changes with Summerset added 2 to 4k burst to it and a lot of Sorcs replaced Reach with RC - that’s why it’s more visible now and why the QQ is there.

Don’t forget the disorient lasts twice as long now so if you can’t break its buggy CC you’re susceptible to twice as much damage.

DenMoria

It also keeps us Sorcs from being immediately destroyed. We are kind of squishy ya know.

BohnT wrote: »

It's a cheap, delayed, undodgeable, unblockable, uncloakable stun with high range, twice the tooltip of fossilize, that is hard to break and makes it very easy to hit curse, meteor and frags on a target that can't defend himself.

It's just a no brainer at this point.

Apherius

mb10 wrote: »

Lol.

Next to keeps the range of it is like 40 meters
Cheap
Hard CC
No way of seeing it coming
Cannot block
Cannot dodge
Does a lot of damage when you break
Stuns for 5 seconds


An absolute f****** joke in PVP atm. The developer who's idea this is needs to be named and shamed because its genuinely ridiculous. Its very difficult to defend against if youre a magicka build that has to be careful of your stamina pool.

It is not a L2P issue because the high amounts of damage and sustain sorcs have in PVP atm makes it even more difficult to turn the fight around.

Btw every single sorc is using the dark curse with rune cage and meteor combo lol if the going gets tough? Time to streak and spam 200 shields.

just stop with the " Cheap " you really don't need to add that to the list, What do you compare this skill with to say that it is cheap ? Fossilize ? Because i asked to a guild mate ( Magicka DK pvp ) his Fossilize cost 2 125 magicka. (and you can't compare that to a weapon skill ).
You just want the skill to look more powerful that it is. Btw it cost 3K magicka on my mag sorc.

Anyway, i agree with the rest, i used this skill Pre-summerset, and now, i agree that it is overpowered ... ( but it's not cheap !)

This should stay an Unblockable/Unavoidable CC
The stun should last 3/3.5 sec.
They really need to reduce the damage, like it was before, or remove the damage and add a debuff/buff ( the sorcerer is the class with the less debuff/buff )

keep the current cost, it cost much that fossilze because it have a higher range, it's fine.

btw, about defensive rune, i really think this should only proc when someone deal you direct damage, sometimes i get CC in BG and there is no one arround, and i'm like " Poor sorc you wasted 3K magicka, you will probably die from this magNB using caluurion/Zaan now "

They took the CC and the 10% increased damage from one of our damage ability ( Crystal ) and they added the damage to our CC ( rune cage ) xD

I mean, come on, Rune cage was fine pre-summerset ( i'm talking about the previous version, not the 2014 version ) why you added damage on this skill and made every-single sorc hater complaining about that ... While crystal and Twillight tormentor both need help in term of damage ... ( twillight tormentor is meh since beta )

Seraphayel

DenMoria wrote: »

It also keeps us Sorcs from being immediately destroyed. We are kind of squishy ya know.

BohnT wrote: »

It's a cheap, delayed, undodgeable, unblockable, uncloakable stun with high range, twice the tooltip of fossilize, that is hard to break and makes it very easy to hit curse, meteor and frags on a target that can't defend himself.

It's just a no brainer at this point.

And that's a reason to have such a 100-0% combo? As a Magicka spec I'm not able to counter it in most situations. And the amount of Sorcs in bgs makes it quite hard to break free.

Joy_Division

Apherius wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Lol.

Next to keeps the range of it is like 40 meters
Cheap
Hard CC
No way of seeing it coming
Cannot block
Cannot dodge
Does a lot of damage when you break
Stuns for 5 seconds


An absolute f****** joke in PVP atm. The developer who's idea this is needs to be named and shamed because its genuinely ridiculous. Its very difficult to defend against if youre a magicka build that has to be careful of your stamina pool.

It is not a L2P issue because the high amounts of damage and sustain sorcs have in PVP atm makes it even more difficult to turn the fight around.

Btw every single sorc is using the dark curse with rune cage and meteor combo lol if the going gets tough? Time to streak and spam 200 shields.

just stop with the " Cheap " you really don't need to add that to the list, What do you compare this skill with to say that it is cheap ? Fossilize ? Because i asked to a guild mate ( Magicka DK pvp ) his Fossilize cost 2 125 magicka. (and you can't compare that to a weapon skill ).
You just want the skill to look more powerful that it is. Btw it cost 3K magicka on my mag sorc.

Anyway, i agree with the rest, i used this skill Pre-summerset, and now, i agree that it is overpowered ... ( but it's not cheap !)

This should stay an Unblockable/Unavoidable CC
The stun should last 3/3.5 sec.
They really need to reduce the damage, like it was before, or remove the damage and add a debuff/buff ( the sorcerer is the class with the less debuff/buff )

keep the current cost, it cost much that fossilze because it have a higher range, it's fine.

btw, about defensive rune, i really think this should only proc when someone deal you direct damage, sometimes i get CC in BG and there is no one arround, and i'm like " Poor sorc you wasted 3K magicka, you will probably die from this magNB using caluurion/Zaan now "

They took the CC and the 10% increased damage from one of our damage ability ( Crystal ) and they added the damage to our CC ( rune cage ) xD

I mean, come on, Rune cage was fine pre-summerset ( i'm talking about the previous version, not the 2014 version ) why you added damage on this skill and made every-single sorc hater complaining about that ... While crystal and Twillight tormentor both need help in term of damage ... ( twillight tormentor is meh since beta )

Why should the skill stay unblockable/unavoidable? Why exactly is that compelling gameplay? Why do sorcerers need an unblockable/unavoidable CC? Because they have crummy mobility, bad burst, and poor shields? Oh, wait. Those are templars. My bad.

How exactly does reducing the stun help at all when the issue with this spell is that it auto-stuns me without being able to do anything about it just as a meteor is about to land on my and a curse is about to explode?

Rune Cage was not fine before Summerset. Just because 95% of sorcs run FOTM Youtube builds that used Master Destros and ignored the spell did not mean it wasn't bad gameplay. Way way way back, I was the only Templar on PC NA that used Eclipse when it did everything both current morphs do and more - it actually reflected every spell in the game including ulitmates. It was ridiculously strong even though everyone thought it was trash.

I get it, sorcs are mad because Wrobel took away what made playing them fun and interesting when frags got overnerfed so they're worried about being left without anything to do but zerg surf and spam Endless Fury to steal skills. But don't try to sell me that an unavoidbable/unblockable long range stun on a class with on demand burst is somehow OK.

WreckfulAbandon

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why should the skill stay unblockable/unavoidable? Why exactly is that compelling gameplay? Why do sorcerers need an unblockable/unavoidable CC? Because they have crummy mobility, bad burst, and poor shields? Oh, wait. Those are templars. My bad.

How exactly does reducing the stun help at all when the issue with this spell is that it auto-stuns me without being able to do anything about it just as a meteor is about to land on my and a curse is about to explode?

Rune Cage was not fine before Summerset. Just because 95% of sorcs run FOTM Youtube builds that used Master Destros and ignored the spell did not mean it wasn't bad gameplay. Way way way back, I was the only Templar on PC NA that used Eclipse when it did everything both current morphs do and more - it actually reflected every spell in the game including ulitmates. It was ridiculously strong even though everyone thought it was trash.

I get it, sorcs are mad because Wrobel took away what made playing them fun and interesting when frags got overnerfed so they're worried about being left without anything to do but zerg surf and spam Endless Fury to steal skills. But don't try to sell me that an unavoidbable/unblockable long range stun on a class with on demand burst is somehow OK.

I don't see how sorc burst can be described as "on demand" when it's so backloaded. I have no problem with nerfing the damage on rune cage, possibly even the range a bit, but undodgeable/unblockable is fine imo. The counterplay to sorc burst comes when you initially see the curse on you. You have a number of actions you can take at that point to mitigate or avoid the full combo. If you are waiting to avoid the combo by anticipating the rune cage, you are doing it at the wrong time. When I'm on my templars I usually pack up sorcs fairly quickly (esp. magic templar)

I say this as a sorc/templar main who wants templar to get some love as well, but I can say from experience that msorc had it rough at the top levels for quite awhile. Let's get some buffs to other classes before we attack with the nerf hammer again. I would even apply that to incap (and I don't particularly like NB's)

Apherius

Joy_Division wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Lol.

Next to keeps the range of it is like 40 meters
Cheap
Hard CC
No way of seeing it coming
Cannot block
Cannot dodge
Does a lot of damage when you break
Stuns for 5 seconds


An absolute f****** joke in PVP atm. The developer who's idea this is needs to be named and shamed because its genuinely ridiculous. Its very difficult to defend against if youre a magicka build that has to be careful of your stamina pool.

It is not a L2P issue because the high amounts of damage and sustain sorcs have in PVP atm makes it even more difficult to turn the fight around.

Btw every single sorc is using the dark curse with rune cage and meteor combo lol if the going gets tough? Time to streak and spam 200 shields.

just stop with the " Cheap " you really don't need to add that to the list, What do you compare this skill with to say that it is cheap ? Fossilize ? Because i asked to a guild mate ( Magicka DK pvp ) his Fossilize cost 2 125 magicka. (and you can't compare that to a weapon skill ).
You just want the skill to look more powerful that it is. Btw it cost 3K magicka on my mag sorc.

Anyway, i agree with the rest, i used this skill Pre-summerset, and now, i agree that it is overpowered ... ( but it's not cheap !)

This should stay an Unblockable/Unavoidable CC
The stun should last 3/3.5 sec.
They really need to reduce the damage, like it was before, or remove the damage and add a debuff/buff ( the sorcerer is the class with the less debuff/buff )

keep the current cost, it cost much that fossilze because it have a higher range, it's fine.

btw, about defensive rune, i really think this should only proc when someone deal you direct damage, sometimes i get CC in BG and there is no one arround, and i'm like " Poor sorc you wasted 3K magicka, you will probably die from this magNB using caluurion/Zaan now "

They took the CC and the 10% increased damage from one of our damage ability ( Crystal ) and they added the damage to our CC ( rune cage ) xD

I mean, come on, Rune cage was fine pre-summerset ( i'm talking about the previous version, not the 2014 version ) why you added damage on this skill and made every-single sorc hater complaining about that ... While crystal and Twillight tormentor both need help in term of damage ... ( twillight tormentor is meh since beta )

Why should the skill stay unblockable/unavoidable? Why exactly is that compelling gameplay? Why do sorcerers need an unblockable/unavoidable CC? Because they have crummy mobility, bad burst, and poor shields? Oh, wait. Those are templars. My bad.

How exactly does reducing the stun help at all when the issue with this spell is that it auto-stuns me without being able to do anything about it just as a meteor is about to land on my and a curse is about to explode?

Rune Cage was not fine before Summerset. Just because 95% of sorcs run FOTM Youtube builds that used Master Destros and ignored the spell did not mean it wasn't bad gameplay. Way way way back, I was the only Templar on PC NA that used Eclipse when it did everything both current morphs do and more - it actually reflected every spell in the game including ulitmates. It was ridiculously strong even though everyone thought it was trash.

I get it, sorcs are mad because Wrobel took away what made playing them fun and interesting when frags got overnerfed so they're worried about being left without anything to do but zerg surf and spam Endless Fury to steal skills. But don't try to sell me that an unavoidbable/unblockable long range stun on a class with on demand burst is somehow OK.

Reducing the stun to 3 sec would help in No-cp, when you are out of stam and need to wait for the CC to end.

2984 magicka ~ 28 meters ~ Rune cage ( pre-summerset): Imprison an enemy in a sphere of dark magic, stunning them for 2,5 seconds. Deal 2K magic damage when the stun end naturally. This stun cannot be blocked or dodged.

2984 magicka ~ 28 meters ~ Rune cage ( Summerset) : Imprison an enemy in a sphere of dark magic, stunning them for 5 seconds. Deal 7228 magic damage when the stun end naturally. This stun cannot be blocked or dodged.

3 232 magicka ~ 28 meters ~ Destructive reach: Devastate an anemy with an enhanced charge from your staff, dealing 5882 magic damage and an additional 8205 magic damage over 8 secondes.

Let's compare both:
- Reach cost arround 250 more magicka than rune cage, and 600 less magicka than rune cage with master destro.
- Reach deal more damage than pre-summerset rune cage .
- You can block reach instant damage, but you will keep the dot, unlike pre-summerset rune cage which deal 0 damage against 80% of player ( they break it early )
- You can use reach as a spammable unlike rune cage
- Rune cage is unblockable and unavoidable unlike reach.

Now let's imagine they remove the unblockable/unavoidable part ( on the summerset version ), what would be the point using that over Destructive reach ?
- We don't need the 5 sec stun ... It's useless ... Except against some players who can't manage their stamina, this is not a reason to slot this skill over destructive reach.
- Unavoidable damage ? I wonder if you can block them just after you Break the CC, even if you could not, 7K damage is still less than destructive reach damage ( + destructive reach can apply burn effect ? )
- the fact that it cost 250 less magicka ? Let me laugh.
- The fact that it does not requiere to slot a destruction staff ? Lol, there is almost no build diversity, we NEED to use a destruction staff because we have no class spammable anyway.


Why should rune cage be stronger than a weapon ability ? Because this is a class ability ! they can even remove the damage from rune cage and reduce the stun to 2,5 secondes, the unblockable/undodgeable part is the only thing that make the ability used .. when i first used the skill i was like " Wow ! my crystal finally hit a stamina player ! " cause usually they just dodge it like it was a potatoe.

SodanTok

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why should the skill stay unblockable/unavoidable? Why exactly is that compelling gameplay? Why do sorcerers need an unblockable/unavoidable CC? Because they have crummy mobility, bad burst, and poor shields? Oh, wait. Those are templars. My bad.

How exactly does reducing the stun help at all when the issue with this spell is that it auto-stuns me without being able to do anything about it just as a meteor is about to land on my and a curse is about to explode?

Rune Cage was not fine before Summerset. Just because 95% of sorcs run FOTM Youtube builds that used Master Destros and ignored the spell did not mean it wasn't bad gameplay. Way way way back, I was the only Templar on PC NA that used Eclipse when it did everything both current morphs do and more - it actually reflected every spell in the game including ulitmates. It was ridiculously strong even though everyone thought it was trash.

I get it, sorcs are mad because Wrobel took away what made playing them fun and interesting when frags got overnerfed so they're worried about being left without anything to do but zerg surf and spam Endless Fury to steal skills. But don't try to sell me that an unavoidbable/unblockable long range stun on a class with on demand burst is somehow OK.

I don't see how sorc burst can be described as "on demand" when it's so backloaded. I have no problem with nerfing the damage on rune cage, possibly even the range a bit, but undodgeable/unblockable is fine imo. The counterplay to sorc burst comes when you initially see the curse on you. You have a number of actions you can take at that point to mitigate or avoid the full combo. If you are waiting to avoid the combo by anticipating the rune cage, you are doing it at the wrong time. When I'm on my templars I usually pack up sorcs fairly quickly (esp. magic templar)

I say this as a sorc/templar main who wants templar to get some love as well, but I can say from experience that msorc had it rough at the top levels for quite awhile. Let's get some buffs to other classes before we attack with the nerf hammer again. I would even apply that to incap (and I don't particularly like NB's)

I thought counterplay to sorc burst was to dodge or block it There are hardly any on demand actions left to take if you remove these with single high range ability.

Maulkin

SodanTok wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why should the skill stay unblockable/unavoidable? Why exactly is that compelling gameplay? Why do sorcerers need an unblockable/unavoidable CC? Because they have crummy mobility, bad burst, and poor shields? Oh, wait. Those are templars. My bad.

How exactly does reducing the stun help at all when the issue with this spell is that it auto-stuns me without being able to do anything about it just as a meteor is about to land on my and a curse is about to explode?

Rune Cage was not fine before Summerset. Just because 95% of sorcs run FOTM Youtube builds that used Master Destros and ignored the spell did not mean it wasn't bad gameplay. Way way way back, I was the only Templar on PC NA that used Eclipse when it did everything both current morphs do and more - it actually reflected every spell in the game including ulitmates. It was ridiculously strong even though everyone thought it was trash.

I get it, sorcs are mad because Wrobel took away what made playing them fun and interesting when frags got overnerfed so they're worried about being left without anything to do but zerg surf and spam Endless Fury to steal skills. But don't try to sell me that an unavoidbable/unblockable long range stun on a class with on demand burst is somehow OK.

I don't see how sorc burst can be described as "on demand" when it's so backloaded. I have no problem with nerfing the damage on rune cage, possibly even the range a bit, but undodgeable/unblockable is fine imo. The counterplay to sorc burst comes when you initially see the curse on you. You have a number of actions you can take at that point to mitigate or avoid the full combo. If you are waiting to avoid the combo by anticipating the rune cage, you are doing it at the wrong time. When I'm on my templars I usually pack up sorcs fairly quickly (esp. magic templar)

I say this as a sorc/templar main who wants templar to get some love as well, but I can say from experience that msorc had it rough at the top levels for quite awhile. Let's get some buffs to other classes before we attack with the nerf hammer again. I would even apply that to incap (and I don't particularly like NB's)

I thought counterplay to sorc burst was to dodge or block it There are hardly any on demand actions left to take if you remove these with single high range ability.

True, but that's why Sorc goes from one extreme to the other depending on Rune Cage.

Sorc has high burst, mostly due to Curse and Fury skills combined with an ult (Meteor). This burst is highly telegraphed, all too predictable and without Rune Cage very easily avoidable. Which is why non-Pet Sorc was a target dummy in duels/1v1s pre-Summerset. WIth Rune Cage this burst, while still telegraphed, becomes unavoidable which is over the top and nerf-worthy.

But if you take Rune Cage out, Sorc goes back to basically becoming a non-threatening class for any block/tanky build, due to complete the lack of hard CC and efficient snares/roots that enable you to control fight and land some burst.

So yeah, Rune Cage is over the top. But Sorc kinda needs something if that goes. I believe classes need ways of landing some burst. And that also applies for Templar and Warden who lost theirs for reasons that are inexplicable.

SodanTok

Maulkin wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why should the skill stay unblockable/unavoidable? Why exactly is that compelling gameplay? Why do sorcerers need an unblockable/unavoidable CC? Because they have crummy mobility, bad burst, and poor shields? Oh, wait. Those are templars. My bad.

How exactly does reducing the stun help at all when the issue with this spell is that it auto-stuns me without being able to do anything about it just as a meteor is about to land on my and a curse is about to explode?

Rune Cage was not fine before Summerset. Just because 95% of sorcs run FOTM Youtube builds that used Master Destros and ignored the spell did not mean it wasn't bad gameplay. Way way way back, I was the only Templar on PC NA that used Eclipse when it did everything both current morphs do and more - it actually reflected every spell in the game including ulitmates. It was ridiculously strong even though everyone thought it was trash.

I get it, sorcs are mad because Wrobel took away what made playing them fun and interesting when frags got overnerfed so they're worried about being left without anything to do but zerg surf and spam Endless Fury to steal skills. But don't try to sell me that an unavoidbable/unblockable long range stun on a class with on demand burst is somehow OK.

I don't see how sorc burst can be described as "on demand" when it's so backloaded. I have no problem with nerfing the damage on rune cage, possibly even the range a bit, but undodgeable/unblockable is fine imo. The counterplay to sorc burst comes when you initially see the curse on you. You have a number of actions you can take at that point to mitigate or avoid the full combo. If you are waiting to avoid the combo by anticipating the rune cage, you are doing it at the wrong time. When I'm on my templars I usually pack up sorcs fairly quickly (esp. magic templar)

I say this as a sorc/templar main who wants templar to get some love as well, but I can say from experience that msorc had it rough at the top levels for quite awhile. Let's get some buffs to other classes before we attack with the nerf hammer again. I would even apply that to incap (and I don't particularly like NB's)

I thought counterplay to sorc burst was to dodge or block it There are hardly any on demand actions left to take if you remove these with single high range ability.

True, but that's why Sorc goes from one extreme to the other depending on Rune Cage.

Sorc has high burst, mostly due to Curse and Fury skills combined with an ult (Meteor). This burst is highly telegraphed, all too predictable and without Rune Cage very easily avoidable. Which is why non-Pet Sorc was a target dummy in duels/1v1s pre-Summerset. WIth Rune Cage this burst, while still telegraphed, becomes unavoidable which is over the top and nerf-worthy.

But if you take Rune Cage out, Sorc goes back to basically becoming a non-threatening class for any block/tanky build, due to complete the lack of hard CC and efficient snares/roots that enable you to control fight and land some burst.

So yeah, Rune Cage is over the top. But Sorc kinda needs something if that goes. I believe classes need ways of landing some burst. And that also applies for Templar and Warden who lost theirs for reasons that are inexplicable.

Sounds like its the same issue as always :P Make burst more bursty and more reliable to land, so everyone again goes to more health so they have chance to survive it. In that regard I dont think rune cage should ever be undodgeable, meteor with curse and potentially execute is already plenty of guaranteed damage if targets decides to dodge roll. But what do I know, I am sure someone would counter me with different argument based solely on their experience trying to kill rollerblades.

Joy_Division

Apherius wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Lol.

Next to keeps the range of it is like 40 meters
Cheap
Hard CC
No way of seeing it coming
Cannot block
Cannot dodge
Does a lot of damage when you break
Stuns for 5 seconds


An absolute f****** joke in PVP atm. The developer who's idea this is needs to be named and shamed because its genuinely ridiculous. Its very difficult to defend against if youre a magicka build that has to be careful of your stamina pool.

It is not a L2P issue because the high amounts of damage and sustain sorcs have in PVP atm makes it even more difficult to turn the fight around.

Btw every single sorc is using the dark curse with rune cage and meteor combo lol if the going gets tough? Time to streak and spam 200 shields.

just stop with the " Cheap " you really don't need to add that to the list, What do you compare this skill with to say that it is cheap ? Fossilize ? Because i asked to a guild mate ( Magicka DK pvp ) his Fossilize cost 2 125 magicka. (and you can't compare that to a weapon skill ).
You just want the skill to look more powerful that it is. Btw it cost 3K magicka on my mag sorc.

Anyway, i agree with the rest, i used this skill Pre-summerset, and now, i agree that it is overpowered ... ( but it's not cheap !)

This should stay an Unblockable/Unavoidable CC
The stun should last 3/3.5 sec.
They really need to reduce the damage, like it was before, or remove the damage and add a debuff/buff ( the sorcerer is the class with the less debuff/buff )

keep the current cost, it cost much that fossilze because it have a higher range, it's fine.

btw, about defensive rune, i really think this should only proc when someone deal you direct damage, sometimes i get CC in BG and there is no one arround, and i'm like " Poor sorc you wasted 3K magicka, you will probably die from this magNB using caluurion/Zaan now "

They took the CC and the 10% increased damage from one of our damage ability ( Crystal ) and they added the damage to our CC ( rune cage ) xD

I mean, come on, Rune cage was fine pre-summerset ( i'm talking about the previous version, not the 2014 version ) why you added damage on this skill and made every-single sorc hater complaining about that ... While crystal and Twillight tormentor both need help in term of damage ... ( twillight tormentor is meh since beta )

Why should the skill stay unblockable/unavoidable? Why exactly is that compelling gameplay? Why do sorcerers need an unblockable/unavoidable CC? Because they have crummy mobility, bad burst, and poor shields? Oh, wait. Those are templars. My bad.

How exactly does reducing the stun help at all when the issue with this spell is that it auto-stuns me without being able to do anything about it just as a meteor is about to land on my and a curse is about to explode?

Rune Cage was not fine before Summerset. Just because 95% of sorcs run FOTM Youtube builds that used Master Destros and ignored the spell did not mean it wasn't bad gameplay. Way way way back, I was the only Templar on PC NA that used Eclipse when it did everything both current morphs do and more - it actually reflected every spell in the game including ulitmates. It was ridiculously strong even though everyone thought it was trash.

I get it, sorcs are mad because Wrobel took away what made playing them fun and interesting when frags got overnerfed so they're worried about being left without anything to do but zerg surf and spam Endless Fury to steal skills. But don't try to sell me that an unavoidbable/unblockable long range stun on a class with on demand burst is somehow OK.

Reducing the stun to 3 sec would help in No-cp, when you are out of stam and need to wait for the CC to end.

2984 magicka ~ 28 meters ~ Rune cage ( pre-summerset): Imprison an enemy in a sphere of dark magic, stunning them for 2,5 seconds. Deal 2K magic damage when the stun end naturally. This stun cannot be blocked or dodged.

2984 magicka ~ 28 meters ~ Rune cage ( Summerset) : Imprison an enemy in a sphere of dark magic, stunning them for 5 seconds. Deal 7228 magic damage when the stun end naturally. This stun cannot be blocked or dodged.

3 232 magicka ~ 28 meters ~ Destructive reach: Devastate an anemy with an enhanced charge from your staff, dealing 5882 magic damage and an additional 8205 magic damage over 8 secondes.

Let's compare both:
- Reach cost arround 250 more magicka than rune cage, and 600 less magicka than rune cage with master destro.
- Reach deal more damage than pre-summerset rune cage .
- You can block reach instant damage, but you will keep the dot, unlike pre-summerset rune cage which deal 0 damage against 80% of player ( they break it early )
- You can use reach as a spammable unlike rune cage
- Rune cage is unblockable and unavoidable unlike reach.

Now let's imagine they remove the unblockable/unavoidable part ( on the summerset version ), what would be the point using that over Destructive reach ?
- We don't need the 5 sec stun ... It's useless ... Except against some players who can't manage their stamina, this is not a reason to slot this skill over destructive reach.
- Unavoidable damage ? I wonder if you can block them just after you Break the CC, even if you could not, 7K damage is still less than destructive reach damage ( + destructive reach can apply burn effect ? )
- the fact that it cost 250 less magicka ? Let me laugh.
- The fact that it does not requiere to slot a destruction staff ? Lol, there is almost no build diversity, we NEED to use a destruction staff because we have no class spammable anyway.


Why should rune cage be stronger than a weapon ability ? Because this is a class ability ! they can even remove the damage from rune cage and reduce the stun to 2,5 secondes, the unblockable/undodgeable part is the only thing that make the ability used .. when i first used the skill i was like " Wow ! my crystal finally hit a stamina player ! " cause usually they just dodge it like it was a potatoe.

You forgot the part in your calculations where I block, dodge, or reflect Reach.

I also find it puzzling how you say:

Reducing the stun to 3 sec would help in No-cp, when you are out of stam and need to wait for the CC to end.

and then

We don't need the 5 sec stun ... It's useless ... Except against some players who can't manage their stamina

Well, which is it?

As far the point in using it over reach: don't need to farm a Master destro that takes up 2 gear slots all for the benefit of a single skill. Reach cannot guarantee an unblockable meteor hit. And exactly what you said here:

when i first used the skill i was like " Wow ! my crystal finally hit a stamina player ! " cause usually they just dodge it like it was a potatoe.

Once again, I have a 5 star sorcerer in PvP. I understand the frags nerf was dumb. Sorcs need that or something back. But putting unavoidable stuns in the game is a terrible idea and is not my idea of skillful let alone fun gameplay (fun as in for BOTH the sorcerer and the opponent)

Apherius

Joy_Division wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Lol.

Next to keeps the range of it is like 40 meters
Cheap
Hard CC
No way of seeing it coming
Cannot block
Cannot dodge
Does a lot of damage when you break
Stuns for 5 seconds


An absolute f****** joke in PVP atm. The developer who's idea this is needs to be named and shamed because its genuinely ridiculous. Its very difficult to defend against if youre a magicka build that has to be careful of your stamina pool.

It is not a L2P issue because the high amounts of damage and sustain sorcs have in PVP atm makes it even more difficult to turn the fight around.

Btw every single sorc is using the dark curse with rune cage and meteor combo lol if the going gets tough? Time to streak and spam 200 shields.

just stop with the " Cheap " you really don't need to add that to the list, What do you compare this skill with to say that it is cheap ? Fossilize ? Because i asked to a guild mate ( Magicka DK pvp ) his Fossilize cost 2 125 magicka. (and you can't compare that to a weapon skill ).
You just want the skill to look more powerful that it is. Btw it cost 3K magicka on my mag sorc.

Anyway, i agree with the rest, i used this skill Pre-summerset, and now, i agree that it is overpowered ... ( but it's not cheap !)

This should stay an Unblockable/Unavoidable CC
The stun should last 3/3.5 sec.
They really need to reduce the damage, like it was before, or remove the damage and add a debuff/buff ( the sorcerer is the class with the less debuff/buff )

keep the current cost, it cost much that fossilze because it have a higher range, it's fine.

btw, about defensive rune, i really think this should only proc when someone deal you direct damage, sometimes i get CC in BG and there is no one arround, and i'm like " Poor sorc you wasted 3K magicka, you will probably die from this magNB using caluurion/Zaan now "

They took the CC and the 10% increased damage from one of our damage ability ( Crystal ) and they added the damage to our CC ( rune cage ) xD

I mean, come on, Rune cage was fine pre-summerset ( i'm talking about the previous version, not the 2014 version ) why you added damage on this skill and made every-single sorc hater complaining about that ... While crystal and Twillight tormentor both need help in term of damage ... ( twillight tormentor is meh since beta )

Why should the skill stay unblockable/unavoidable? Why exactly is that compelling gameplay? Why do sorcerers need an unblockable/unavoidable CC? Because they have crummy mobility, bad burst, and poor shields? Oh, wait. Those are templars. My bad.

How exactly does reducing the stun help at all when the issue with this spell is that it auto-stuns me without being able to do anything about it just as a meteor is about to land on my and a curse is about to explode?

Rune Cage was not fine before Summerset. Just because 95% of sorcs run FOTM Youtube builds that used Master Destros and ignored the spell did not mean it wasn't bad gameplay. Way way way back, I was the only Templar on PC NA that used Eclipse when it did everything both current morphs do and more - it actually reflected every spell in the game including ulitmates. It was ridiculously strong even though everyone thought it was trash.

I get it, sorcs are mad because Wrobel took away what made playing them fun and interesting when frags got overnerfed so they're worried about being left without anything to do but zerg surf and spam Endless Fury to steal skills. But don't try to sell me that an unavoidbable/unblockable long range stun on a class with on demand burst is somehow OK.

Reducing the stun to 3 sec would help in No-cp, when you are out of stam and need to wait for the CC to end.

2984 magicka ~ 28 meters ~ Rune cage ( pre-summerset): Imprison an enemy in a sphere of dark magic, stunning them for 2,5 seconds. Deal 2K magic damage when the stun end naturally. This stun cannot be blocked or dodged.

2984 magicka ~ 28 meters ~ Rune cage ( Summerset) : Imprison an enemy in a sphere of dark magic, stunning them for 5 seconds. Deal 7228 magic damage when the stun end naturally. This stun cannot be blocked or dodged.

3 232 magicka ~ 28 meters ~ Destructive reach: Devastate an anemy with an enhanced charge from your staff, dealing 5882 magic damage and an additional 8205 magic damage over 8 secondes.

Let's compare both:
- Reach cost arround 250 more magicka than rune cage, and 600 less magicka than rune cage with master destro.
- Reach deal more damage than pre-summerset rune cage .
- You can block reach instant damage, but you will keep the dot, unlike pre-summerset rune cage which deal 0 damage against 80% of player ( they break it early )
- You can use reach as a spammable unlike rune cage
- Rune cage is unblockable and unavoidable unlike reach.

Now let's imagine they remove the unblockable/unavoidable part ( on the summerset version ), what would be the point using that over Destructive reach ?
- We don't need the 5 sec stun ... It's useless ... Except against some players who can't manage their stamina, this is not a reason to slot this skill over destructive reach.
- Unavoidable damage ? I wonder if you can block them just after you Break the CC, even if you could not, 7K damage is still less than destructive reach damage ( + destructive reach can apply burn effect ? )
- the fact that it cost 250 less magicka ? Let me laugh.
- The fact that it does not requiere to slot a destruction staff ? Lol, there is almost no build diversity, we NEED to use a destruction staff because we have no class spammable anyway.


Why should rune cage be stronger than a weapon ability ? Because this is a class ability ! they can even remove the damage from rune cage and reduce the stun to 2,5 secondes, the unblockable/undodgeable part is the only thing that make the ability used .. when i first used the skill i was like " Wow ! my crystal finally hit a stamina player ! " cause usually they just dodge it like it was a potatoe.

You forgot the part in your calculations where I block, dodge, or reflect Reach.

I also find it puzzling how you say:

Reducing the stun to 3 sec would help in No-cp, when you are out of stam and need to wait for the CC to end.

and then

We don't need the 5 sec stun ... It's useless ... Except against some players who can't manage their stamina

Well, which is it?

As far the point in using it over reach: don't need to farm a Master destro that takes up 2 gear slots all for the benefit of a single skill. Reach cannot guarantee an unblockable meteor hit. And exactly what you said here:

when i first used the skill i was like " Wow ! my crystal finally hit a stamina player ! " cause usually they just dodge it like it was a potatoe.

Once again, I have a 5 star sorcerer in PvP. I understand the frags nerf was dumb. Sorcs need that or something back. But putting unavoidable stuns in the game is a terrible idea and is not my idea of skillful let alone fun gameplay (fun as in for BOTH the sorcerer and the opponent)

If they make it dodgeable and blockable this won't guarantee an unblockable meteor hit, this would work like reach.

Even without master destro it would worth slotting reach over rune cage, reach would deal 1K ( with battle spirit ) less direct damage than rune cage, but as i said it proc burn effect, and it deal additionnal damage over time.
If you block reach you take some damage + the dot, unlike rune cage who does damage only if the target is CC ( and break the CC early or wait for it to end naturally ).

InBedWithMySelf

Yea this ability is basically fossilize, except 17 times stronger. Also fossilize came first, feels like rune cage just pushed itself to the front of the line. Oh, and don't you guys start thinking that I support the unblockable, un-everything stun mechanic of fossilize, it's unhealthy.

Maulkin

SodanTok wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why should the skill stay unblockable/unavoidable? Why exactly is that compelling gameplay? Why do sorcerers need an unblockable/unavoidable CC? Because they have crummy mobility, bad burst, and poor shields? Oh, wait. Those are templars. My bad.

How exactly does reducing the stun help at all when the issue with this spell is that it auto-stuns me without being able to do anything about it just as a meteor is about to land on my and a curse is about to explode?

Rune Cage was not fine before Summerset. Just because 95% of sorcs run FOTM Youtube builds that used Master Destros and ignored the spell did not mean it wasn't bad gameplay. Way way way back, I was the only Templar on PC NA that used Eclipse when it did everything both current morphs do and more - it actually reflected every spell in the game including ulitmates. It was ridiculously strong even though everyone thought it was trash.

I get it, sorcs are mad because Wrobel took away what made playing them fun and interesting when frags got overnerfed so they're worried about being left without anything to do but zerg surf and spam Endless Fury to steal skills. But don't try to sell me that an unavoidbable/unblockable long range stun on a class with on demand burst is somehow OK.

I don't see how sorc burst can be described as "on demand" when it's so backloaded. I have no problem with nerfing the damage on rune cage, possibly even the range a bit, but undodgeable/unblockable is fine imo. The counterplay to sorc burst comes when you initially see the curse on you. You have a number of actions you can take at that point to mitigate or avoid the full combo. If you are waiting to avoid the combo by anticipating the rune cage, you are doing it at the wrong time. When I'm on my templars I usually pack up sorcs fairly quickly (esp. magic templar)

I say this as a sorc/templar main who wants templar to get some love as well, but I can say from experience that msorc had it rough at the top levels for quite awhile. Let's get some buffs to other classes before we attack with the nerf hammer again. I would even apply that to incap (and I don't particularly like NB's)

I thought counterplay to sorc burst was to dodge or block it There are hardly any on demand actions left to take if you remove these with single high range ability.

True, but that's why Sorc goes from one extreme to the other depending on Rune Cage.

Sorc has high burst, mostly due to Curse and Fury skills combined with an ult (Meteor). This burst is highly telegraphed, all too predictable and without Rune Cage very easily avoidable. Which is why non-Pet Sorc was a target dummy in duels/1v1s pre-Summerset. WIth Rune Cage this burst, while still telegraphed, becomes unavoidable which is over the top and nerf-worthy.

But if you take Rune Cage out, Sorc goes back to basically becoming a non-threatening class for any block/tanky build, due to complete the lack of hard CC and efficient snares/roots that enable you to control fight and land some burst.

So yeah, Rune Cage is over the top. But Sorc kinda needs something if that goes. I believe classes need ways of landing some burst. And that also applies for Templar and Warden who lost theirs for reasons that are inexplicable.

Sounds like its the same issue as always :P Make burst more bursty and more reliable to land, so everyone again goes to more health so they have chance to survive it.

I don't know it is that gave that impression, but I never said to make anything more bursty. And you say "more reliable",more reliable than what? I don't like burst without counterplay, same as I don't like burst with too easy counterplay.

When I look at a well designed class I always look at NB. NB also has high burst with Incap->Bow proc. That burst is avoidable by blocking, dodging etc, it has counterplay. However that burst is not telegraphed. A NB can come out of cloak with a burst combo and even when not Cloaked, you have no way of knowing if a bow proc is armed and if an Incap is about to hit you. There's no real way of predicting the burst. That's why people talk about front-loaded burst.

And NB also has a unblockale/undodgeable CC with Fear to make sure it can land an ult and some damage against block holders. But the hard CC there is more balanced because the class doesn't have a delayed damage skill like Curse, which would make the unavoidable damage over the top (like current Sorc).

Now Sorc burst on the other hand, with Curse and Meteor, is the most predictable. It puts two visual and audio indicators on your targets body and even if you have a frag proc that also makes the Sorc's hand glow to let your target know what's coming. It's not front loaded like the NB. So if you remove Rune Cage out of the equation you end up with no way of landing burst. The exact opposite of more reliable.

Bottom line is, if damage is too predictable it can't be too easily avoidable otherwise it'll never achieve anything. But If it's unpredictable, it can and rewards the element of surprise on the side of the attacker or the alertness on the side of the defender. Extremes are not nice. Sorc is stuck in extremes.