[Poll] Hardcore Players -- Would You Buy Veteran-Difficulty Zones from the Crown Store?

ResTandRespeC

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

AuldWolf wrote: »

There are a lot of threads out there about more difficult overworld content, some of us understand that there's a problem with that, though...

Hardcore players don't pay. That's what I always see. ZOS couldn't support themselves via hardcore players because I believe they don't really want to pay their way. They just want to pay the bare minimum, and that's that.

Guild Wars 2 - Heart of Thorns proved that, eh?

ArenaNet built a hardcore expansion and it almost saw ArenaNet close their doors for the effort. Cash shop purchases dried up, they had no funds coming in. They had to apologise profusely, at length to the casual audience and redesign it to be more casual. Casual players pay their way. So many MMOs have ended up on life support or worse because they either tried to appeal to a hardcore demographic from the outset or chose to do so later on.

The reason why is basic psychology, really. It's due to how they see their role in the game, what they think the game actually is and what their place is in it. Whereas I see ESO as an entertainment product, they don't.

You see, hardcore players view their grinding as work. It's a job, they're just schmoes on the factory line and it's the job of the developer to reward them for their time and effort. This is really obvious from not only the precednet set by GW2, but also from threads I've seen here on these very forums.

An example of hardcore players expecting too much came about when it was suggested they could simply use white armour, drop their CP points, or even use no armour to raise the difficulty for themselves. They disdainfully dismissed this idea, snubbing their noses at the concept of having to make any effort outside of their perceived existing 'profession.' Casuals will make fun for themselves all the time, but the mere idea is unthinkable to the hardcore player.

An example of hardcore players believing that it's the job of the developer to reward them rather than making a profit arose with the angry threads that arose with the news of the factotum polymorph. ZOS is a business, money is important, and casual players have always been understanding of this and as supportive as their disposable income allows. However, with the hardcore mindset it was a cardinal sin to try to make money if that money took away from hardcore 'earnings' in any way. ZOS shouldn't try to make money, you see.

Casuals understand that they should pay their way if they want something. I want a crow pet. I'm not just going to be an obnoxious little snot and demand ZOS add such a thing. I'll ask, politely, and I'll pay the price they set out for it if they do decide to oblige. So this should be true of hardcore players too, yes? If a developer is expected to work, they should be paid!

That's just common sense.

That's not going to fly with hardcore players, though, in my opinion because they'll see it as the job of the developer to reward them for their 'work.' This is due to the aforementioned peculiar disconnect where the hardcore player doesn't seem to realise that the developer is a company selling a product meant for entertainment rather than an employer who's offering job opportunities. Whenever an 'employer' isn't providing proper rewards, if the 'work' has therefore dried up, they'll leave and find another source of 'employment' with more active rewards. The hardcore demographic isn't loyal to a game, they'll flit back and forth between titles depending on which is the latest with content. Which means that between content drops the developer wouldn't see any purchases made on their cash shop anyway, even if that ever did happen.

It's strange. It really is. I've just seen it too often though. I know that this is how it is and I want to prove that. I want to prove that there isn't a willingness to put their money where their mouth is. I want to do that because I don't want to see another title I love end up on life support if they decide to appeal to hardcore players more.

I feel casual players are very often subsidising hardcore players by paying far, far more than hardcore players ever do. Who buys the personalities, the houses, the furniture, the non-combat pets, the emotes, and so on? It's not the hardcore, they expect it to be a hand-out for 'working' on a veteran dungeon. And that's my point. Where tha hardcore see it as a 'job,' casual players understand it's actually an entertainment product. They see it more like, say, a vacationing spot.

As such, casual players are inclined to pay their way. They'll fund their favourite place as much as their disposable income allows as they understand that there are costs of running and upkeep. Even in periods where new attractions aren't being added to their favourite location, they'll keep putting money in to ensure it stays open, because they love that place so much. They'll continue to pay the entry fees, but they'll make their own fun to entertain themselves.

So the casuals will be roleplaying, making alts, and gathering lore to entertain themselves whilst paying, trusting that new attractions (new content) will turn up eventually. That's the difference.

The hardcore player pays little, yet expects much

The casual player pays much, but expects little.

So how do we do it? How do we prove that there's no future in supporting the hardcore? it's simple, really. Let's say that this can be an experiment. If this poll succeeds then ZOS can follow this as a means to profit off of hte hardcore. If it fails then it proves that there's no profit to be found with the hardcore. It's a concept elegant in its simplicity. You want it? You pay for it.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones from the cash shop? Each zone would be its own purchase and would be tailored to hardcore play. ZOS could release these zones in waves.

I would be okay with this. It wouldn't get rid fo their casual demographic as it wouldn't impede their ability to play. Therefore the reliable funds available to ZOS from casual players wouldn't go anywhere, and hardcore players could show their desire to fund ZOS's continued efforts.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones?

Wow. I really hate when people try to "call someone/some group out" and end up doing the exact same thing there calling the other group out on. The whole post screams "me me me me", "my view is the correct one, yours is wrong". Stop generalizing everything as if you know everything. I see posts all the time about "hardcore players want everything their way/ for free" then another post "casuals think they should get everything on silver platter". Blah blah blah, there are people like this on every part of the spectrum of players. Get off your high horse.

ResTandRespeC

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

P.S. I know plenty of hardcore pleyers who spend HUUUGE amounts of money on this game. Housing lovers, crafters, guild leaders, and collectors of all sorts, that can smash just about any content out at the moment (and if they haven't beat it, there progressing it). On the other end I've met people who are solely role players who spend the same sums of money. The opposite is also true. I consider myself "hardcore" to some degree and i just buy a few things out of the crown store every once in awhile, sub, and get my chapters. While, again on the other hand, I've met people who have played this game since beta, don't sub, don't use the crown store, and wait for everything to go on sale content wise. OP, just because someone is hard core in pve or pvp or whatever, doesn't mutually exclude them from doing things such as housing, role playing, or taking an interest in their characters appearance. The same way being "casual" (or doing any of the other things people do in this game) doesn't mutually exclude you from these things.


tldr- OP's assumptions seem entirely biased, probably by a negative forum interaction elsewhere on the subject.

Kamatsu

Zerowaffles wrote: »

You say that casual players pay for a lot more things from the crown store even though literally every end game player owns eso plus for the craft bag. As you know eso plus gives crowns each month so obviously hardcore players buy items from the crown store too right?

It's not just casuals who contribute to the game.. If anything casuals just tend to buy the dlc seperately and never touch eso plus.. So in other words hardcore players contribute as much as casuals do and in some cases even more.

Guild Wars 2 proves this nonsense 100% incorrect. GW2's Heart of Thorns expansion launched, it had a massive exodus of casual players due to it being aimed at hardcore players mainly... ANet suffered the biggest 6-month loss in revenue that they had EVER experienced - they suffered a 67% drop in revenue due to the loss of casual's.

Why? Because the hardcore didn't pay for squat, they farmed gold for anything they actually wanted on the Store (they'd buy gems with gold, not real life $ - and now that you can gift Crown Store item's... you can guarantee they are swapping gold for gifted Crown Store items now). Not that they wanted much since the store was for casuals, RP'ers and carebears (as per lots of comments by said hardcore players).

As for ESO+, you do realize the biggest selling items on the Crown Store are the outfits right? and to dye the outfits as you want you need ESO+. Guess which group is more likely to spend hours dye'ing armor and/or outfits over and over again... hardcore? lol nope, they are too busy farming trials and vet dungeons. The casual's and RP'ers who want to look at "good" as they can... which means being able to dye outfits.... which means ESO+.

Casual's couldn't give a rats behind about the piddly +xp% bonuses and such that ESO gives. The ability to look good and look like they want is what they want. So I'd say a lot more casual's sub to ESO+ than hardcores, and do it for the dye ability.

---

Oh, and Eve Online also proves it wrong. Why? Because the majority of Eve's hardcore players never spend a single $ on the game while staying subbed to the game. How? Simple, they buy PLEX from other players - PLEX gives players 30 days of sub time when used in-game. PLEX can be bought for real life money and then sold in-game for ISK - casual's do this because they can't make the in-game money like the hardcore can... thus hardcore buy PLEX with in-game currency and stay subbed.

Eve Online does have a free-to-play component, but it limits the access you have to skills & limits what skills you can train... which sdoes limit what you can do regarding a lot of major activities in Eve Online. So the hardcore want to stay subbed - more skills, more training, etc.... but they *HATE* paying for their own subs with their own money. I've seen post's from some ppl saying they'd rather stop playing than pay real life $ for the sub... even though they can afford it.

Aznox

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

AuldWolf wrote: »

Poll continues to be no. What about the wages of the ZOS employees who'd be working on balancing the zones to fit hardcore tastes? Do they not deserve your money?

You want thing X. Person/Group Y must make thing X for you. Person/Group Y is paid for their time. That's how it works.

And yet you don't want to buy veteran zones. It's right there in the poll.

Why do they not deserve to be paid?

I pay them if they design a costume, pet, personality, house, or what have you that I like. If you want something, why aren't you willing to pay for it? It's a transaction. ZOS is a business, not a charity.
 

Sorry, i voted no because i do not want something complicated that would require a lot of work.

I do not want new content or new rewards added to a Veteran Overland.

I just want the same normal/veteran switch we get for dungeons, and a x4 multiplier to damage/health for any Overland enemy in Veteran mode.

I only want this to get better immersion while questing with a min-maxed character and not feel like all mobs are critters.

From a coding perspective this does not look like so much work :
- Reuse the normal/veteran switch somewhere else in the UI
- Instantiating of overland zone is already in the game, just make sure at least one exists for each difficulty
- Change the stats of overland mobs, or maybe easier add a status effect to players like battle spirit.
- Increase the reward just enough to keep the same value/hour (so you don't have to choose immersion vs efficiency)

/done.

Zerowaffles

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

AuldWolf wrote: »

Poll continues to be no. What about the wages of the ZOS employees who'd be working on balancing the zones to fit hardcore tastes? Do they not deserve your money?

You want thing X. Person/Group Y must make thing X for you. Person/Group Y is paid for their time. That's how it works.

And yet you don't want to buy veteran zones. It's right there in the poll.

Why do they not deserve to be paid?

I pay them if they design a costume, pet, personality, house, or what have you that I like. If you want something, why aren't you willing to pay for it? It's a transaction. ZOS is a business, not a charity.
 

Because just like in every other mmorpg "base game" updates exist for the sole purpose of making the game better. Just like Tamriel one was a base game update or the towns in cyrodiil and most recently battlegrounds moving to the base game.

Countless people pay for eso plus anyway. Remember when the game used to be pay to play? The reason that it was pay to play was to allow zos to deliver free updates without asking people to pay for them and now eso plus has way more subs than the game had when it required a sub to play.

Not everything should be behind a paywall.
Developers should strive to fix and make their game better not just constantly release new content and crown store cosmetics.

Aesthier

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

I do NOT believe that "veteran zones" are needed and would ultimately split the resources for the development of good content and fixes.

There is a much simpler solution.

Simplest Fix:

Implement a hardcore character mode at the character select screen which enabled veterans to create a toon that would suffer a permanent debuff that reduces all stats by a certain percentage on that specific character.

They could still play with their friends while enjoying the increased difficulty of "all" content.

This makes much more sense than creating new servers or implementing some type of toggle for players which lends itself to more breakage.

Hell ZoS could even implement new titles for those who complete certain content using said toons.

Just a simple lifetime debuff that is applied to the character on creation.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

but i agree stuff needs to be little harder in zones like the new zone i 1 shot everything world bosses i can do solo, to me if they did like elder scrolls games and had the adds etc several levels above you, as to dungeons i think there should be 4 levels to the dungeons, normal as it is vet to remain as is, but a new level in between for those who find it hard to get to vet levels and a fourth level above vet for the (hate this word as it brings in certain ideas about it we are not all meta peeps telling peeps how to play) hardcore players where the dungeon is not about dps but more about movement and mechanics. This should be part of base game and not forced to pay for it

srfrogg23

Do you mean a veteran version of zones that already exist or are we talking about whole new zones?

I tend to get new zones, but I’m not paying a second time for something I already have.

Asmael

I should probably not bother answering to the typical "strawmanning & me vs them" kind of thread, but here we go...

Hardcore players don't pay. That's what I always see. ZOS couldn't support themselves via hardcore players because I believe they don't really want to pay their way. They just want to pay the bare minimum, and that's that.

The issue isn't that hardcore players don't want to pay, it's that they ain't enough of them. Gaming companies realized that they could net more benefits targeting both the hardcore and non-hardcore populations, usually because players dedication could be standardized to a Bell's curve. Turns out: you want to be in the middle of the curve to hit as many players as possible.

The reason why is basic psychology, really. It's due to how they see their role in the game, what they think the game actually is and what their place is in it. Whereas I see ESO as an entertainment product, they don't.

You see, hardcore players view their grinding as work. It's a job, they're just schmoes on the factory line and it's the job of the developer to reward them for their time and effort. This is really obvious from not only the precednet set by GW2, but also from threads I've seen here on these very forums.

They don't see it as "work", they see it as a way to challenge themselves and push their limits. Your vision of enternainment is not (Sithis praised be) the only one. If a game offers no challenge, then it is no longer of interest to dedicated players.

That said...

An example of hardcore players expecting too much came about when it was suggested they could simply use white armour, drop their CP points, or even use no armour to raise the difficulty for themselves. They disdainfully dismissed this idea, snubbing their noses at the concept of having to make any effort outside of their perceived existing 'profession.' Casuals will make fun for themselves all the time, but the mere idea is unthinkable to the hardcore player.

To link to the previous paragraph. This point is flawed in many ways. Making an effort is nowhere near the problem since they are (by your own words) willing to put more effort than any other player. The issue with your idea is that the only benefit from it is that they get extra "challenge", with no associated reward. That's not counting the fact that there is a genuine difference between "mechanically difficult and challenging" and "overly boring / repetitive". Veteran trials are mechanic heavy and require group coordination, bashing the same mob for 5h while dodge rolling a heavy attack every 20s falls in the second category.

And again: people have different ways to have fun, not just yours.

Casuals understand that they should pay their way if they want something. I want a crow pet. I'm not just going to be an obnoxious little snot and demand ZOS add such a thing. I'll ask, politely, and I'll pay the price they set out for it if they do decide to oblige. So this should be true of hardcore players too, yes? If a developer is expected to work, they should be paid!

That's just common sense.

That's not going to fly with hardcore players, though, in my opinion because they'll see it as the job of the developer to reward them for their 'work.' This is due to the aforementioned peculiar disconnect where the hardcore player doesn't seem to realise that the developer is a company selling a product meant for entertainment rather than an employer who's offering job opportunities. Whenever an 'employer' isn't providing proper rewards, if the 'work' has therefore dried up, they'll leave and find another source of 'employment' with more active rewards. The hardcore demographic isn't loyal to a game, they'll flit back and forth between titles depending on which is the latest with content. Which means that between content drops the developer wouldn't see any purchases made on their cash shop anyway, even if that ever did happen.

It's strange. It really is. I've just seen it too often though. I know that this is how it is and I want to prove that. I want to prove that there isn't a willingness to put their money where their mouth is. I want to do that because I don't want to see another title I love end up on life support if they decide to appeal to hardcore players more.

There is a difference here in the way to get items which results in benefits for the company. Let's say Zos releases a new skin:

• The casual player from your definition will want to buy it using crowns.
• The hardcore player wants this skin to has meaning and showcase an effort made, for instance: the Mountain god achievement which requires to get both HM, speedrun and nodeath at the same time allows those players to show that they managed to win over some very challenging content.

It does mean that - as you stated - content has to be released periodically. That said, if you don't release any new content, more hardcore players aren't the only ones who'll get bored.

As for whether a player "flips back and forth" between games is irrelevant to a company, as long as said player is (almost) always there for the new content.

The hardcore player pays little, yet expects much

The casual player pays much, but expects little.

For reference, I asked a few players you'd classify as Hardcore players how much they roughly spent. It ranges from 250 to 3k+ euros. As for "casual players have low expectations", I suggest you search on those very forums how many requests there are to refund / change / redesign outfits, houses, fix graphical issues, rework old areas, rework quests... and the such.

Turns out: not everything is black or white.

XxCaLxX

Wouldn't pay for it as I personally don't care about zone difficulty. After going through them thousands of times I think spending more time killing skeevers or whatever would be more frustration while farming, questing etc. I find my difficulty fix in vet dungeons/trials where it's somewhat rewarding. Although idk see why they couldn't have a difficulty option for zones. It would kinda have to be a separate server wouldn't it?

Gorgoneus

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

What are you talking about? Hearth of thorn is just a regular story add-on for GW2 with new zones and classes. Where is cash purchasable content? Living storyes episodes you have for free a few days after release or you can buy for few golden coins after (technically this episodes same as eso DLCs) or cash store outfits? Dont see any dungeon or difficulty content there.
Nothing to compare here.

Why should ZoS sell VET difficulty for dungeons for money if they already sells dungeon itself?

Gorgoneus

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

wrong button, I tried to edit my previous post. How to delete this one?
Also "yes" just to troll.

Zerowaffles

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

Asmael wrote: »

I should probably not bother answering to the typical "strawmanning & me vs them" kind of thread, but here we go...

Hardcore players don't pay. That's what I always see. ZOS couldn't support themselves via hardcore players because I believe they don't really want to pay their way. They just want to pay the bare minimum, and that's that.

The issue isn't that hardcore players don't want to pay, it's that they ain't enough of them. Gaming companies realized that they could net more benefits targeting both the hardcore and non-hardcore populations, usually because players dedication could be standardized to a Bell's curve. Turns out: you want to be in the middle of the curve to hit as many players as possible.

The reason why is basic psychology, really. It's due to how they see their role in the game, what they think the game actually is and what their place is in it. Whereas I see ESO as an entertainment product, they don't.

You see, hardcore players view their grinding as work. It's a job, they're just schmoes on the factory line and it's the job of the developer to reward them for their time and effort. This is really obvious from not only the precednet set by GW2, but also from threads I've seen here on these very forums.

They don't see it as "work", they see it as a way to challenge themselves and push their limits. Your vision of enternainment is not (Sithis praised be) the only one. If a game offers no challenge, then it is no longer of interest to dedicated players.

That said...

An example of hardcore players expecting too much came about when it was suggested they could simply use white armour, drop their CP points, or even use no armour to raise the difficulty for themselves. They disdainfully dismissed this idea, snubbing their noses at the concept of having to make any effort outside of their perceived existing 'profession.' Casuals will make fun for themselves all the time, but the mere idea is unthinkable to the hardcore player.

To link to the previous paragraph. This point is flawed in many ways. Making an effort is nowhere near the problem since they are (by your own words) willing to put more effort than any other player. The issue with your idea is that the only benefit from it is that they get extra "challenge", with no associated reward. That's not counting the fact that there is a genuine difference between "mechanically difficult and challenging" and "overly boring / repetitive". Veteran trials are mechanic heavy and require group coordination, bashing the same mob for 5h while dodge rolling a heavy attack every 20s falls in the second category.

And again: people have different ways to have fun, not just yours.

Casuals understand that they should pay their way if they want something. I want a crow pet. I'm not just going to be an obnoxious little snot and demand ZOS add such a thing. I'll ask, politely, and I'll pay the price they set out for it if they do decide to oblige. So this should be true of hardcore players too, yes? If a developer is expected to work, they should be paid!

That's just common sense.

That's not going to fly with hardcore players, though, in my opinion because they'll see it as the job of the developer to reward them for their 'work.' This is due to the aforementioned peculiar disconnect where the hardcore player doesn't seem to realise that the developer is a company selling a product meant for entertainment rather than an employer who's offering job opportunities. Whenever an 'employer' isn't providing proper rewards, if the 'work' has therefore dried up, they'll leave and find another source of 'employment' with more active rewards. The hardcore demographic isn't loyal to a game, they'll flit back and forth between titles depending on which is the latest with content. Which means that between content drops the developer wouldn't see any purchases made on their cash shop anyway, even if that ever did happen.

It's strange. It really is. I've just seen it too often though. I know that this is how it is and I want to prove that. I want to prove that there isn't a willingness to put their money where their mouth is. I want to do that because I don't want to see another title I love end up on life support if they decide to appeal to hardcore players more.

There is a difference here in the way to get items which results in benefits for the company. Let's say Zos releases a new skin:

• The casual player from your definition will want to buy it using crowns.
• The hardcore player wants this skin to has meaning and showcase an effort made, for instance: the Mountain god achievement which requires to get both HM, speedrun and nodeath at the same time allows those players to show that they managed to win over some very challenging content.

It does mean that - as you stated - content has to be released periodically. That said, if you don't release any new content, more hardcore players aren't the only ones who'll get bored.

As for whether a player "flips back and forth" between games is irrelevant to a company, as long as said player is (almost) always there for the new content.

The hardcore player pays little, yet expects much

The casual player pays much, but expects little.

For reference, I asked a few players you'd classify as Hardcore players how much they roughly spent. It ranges from 250 to 3k+ euros. As for "casual players have low expectations", I suggest you search on those very forums how many requests there are to refund / change / redesign outfits, houses, fix graphical issues, rework old areas, rework quests... and the such.

Turns out: not everything is black or white.

Really well written! Thank you! Someone that finally understands.

Dubhliam

As much as I agree with most of what you said, there is obvious bias in this poll.

In my experience, it is exactly the hardcore playerbase that support the game long-term via subscribtion, while casuals hop on/hop off to and from different games, making direct purchases on whatever game they are playing at the moment.

It’s not my place to say which playerbase generate more revenue, but I can definitely say that the real situation is not as polarised as depicted in your thread.

Kuwhar

What i dont get is people saying they want harder content, but also better rewards.

Are you looking for a challenge or rewards? Whats the priority?

And wouldnt those better rewards then make that formerly challenging content easier, putting you back at square one?

Neyane

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

It should Be in the base game.

AlnilamE

AuldWolf wrote: »

So the casuals will be roleplaying, making alts, and gathering lore to entertain themselves whilst paying, trusting that new attractions (new content) will turn up eventually. That's the difference.

The hardcore player pays little, yet expects much

The casual player pays much, but expects little.

Your assumptions are incorrect. I know hard core players that subscribe, buy crowns, own multiple houses, have full-time jobs and limited time to play, and casual players that are retired and can play as much as they like.

Personally, I limit myself to the subscription, though I did buy crowns once when they were on sale. But I'm not a hard core player by anyone's definition.

That said, ZOS releases dungeon DLCs, which are aimed at your "hard core" players, and I would assume people buy those, so I don't see why people would not buy a more challenging zone. However, if you are talking about zones that already exists, then no. And I think you would feel the same way if the opposite was the case.

So, how about this, if ZOS released a new zone that was about the difficulty of old Craglorn, would *you* pay to have an easier version of the zone?

AlnilamE

AuldWolf wrote: »

And look at that poll.

Point made. Hopefully ZOS takes note.

If it were me, I'd pay for vet zones if I wanted that. I actually would. I mean that, 100 per cent. I buy a lot from the crown store.

If you're not willing to pay for it, don't ask for it.

I will pay for Murkmire to be the same difficulty that Craglorn was at release. How is that?

idk

AuldWolf wrote: »

Poll continues to be no. What about the wages of the ZOS employees who'd be working on balancing the zones to fit hardcore tastes? Do they not deserve your money?

You want thing X. Person/Group Y must make thing X for you. Person/Group Y is paid for their time. That's how it works.

And yet you don't want to buy veteran zones. It's right there in the poll.

Why do they not deserve to be paid?

I pay them if they design a costume, pet, personality, house, or what have you that I like. If you want something, why aren't you willing to pay for it? It's a transaction. ZOS is a business, not a charity.
 

1. again the poll is statistically irrelevant. Forum polls are entertainment value to begin with not to mention the bias you purposely placed in your poll that would make it moot regardless.

That is beside the extremely small number of people who even bothered to take part in your poll.

2. Zos has a much better idea of what sells in this game than most, maybe even any , of us do. Suggesting they (group Y) must do for X something based on this poll is probably not going to fly.

Just simple fact.

Vapirko

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

Lol, when ZOS starts providing purchasable difficult levels I'm coming for you. I can see it now: PVP NOOBS! NOW YOU CAN WIN ALL YOUR PVP BATTLES FOR THE LIMITED TIME OFFER OF 20,000 CROWNS. YOU WILL BE IMBUED WITH GOD POWERS AND YOUR OPPONENTS WILL CRUMBLE BEFORE YOU WITH A SINGLE LIGHT ATTACK, AS THEIR ATTACKS FALL HARMLESSLY UPON YOUR IMPENETRABLE ARMOR.

pod88kk

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

If Craglorn is anything to go by it won't be that popular

Soella

Hardcore players are majority on forum and minority in the game. Even if all of them would buy hardcore zone, it will not be enough to cover development expenses.

MehrunesFlagon

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

Only voted no since I know the original suggestion was to be only with eso plus.I would buy it outright though.

MehrunesFlagon

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

Zerowaffles wrote: »

You say that casual players pay for a lot more things from the crown store even though literally every end game player owns eso plus for the craft bag. As you know eso plus gives crowns each month so obviously hardcore players buy items from the crown store too right?

It's not just casuals who contribute to the game.. If anything casuals just tend to buy the dlc seperately and never touch eso plus.. So in other words hardcore players contribute as much as casuals do and in some cases even more.

Me and many others have been supporting the game since launch and if we are asking for something to be added to game it's up to zos to make the decision but we can still voice our opinions and problems.

Challenging zones and quests is something a lot of people want and I'm sure there's a good way to approach this without ending up with a failure.

Honestly I don't know why I still quest other than to get the achievements and a sense of completion by doing everything. If I didn't have that mindset I would never touch questing again because theres no progression between zones what so ever.

I have seen quite a few hardcore players that have quite a bit of crown store items tbh.

Dagoth_Rac

What would be the purpose of these new, harder overland zones?

Are people going to play through a version of Rivenspire that is 4x harder just for fun? We had super difficult versions of Rivenspire in the past (when Veteran versions were locked behind Cadwell's silver and gold). Those veteran zones were ghost towns. Craglorn had a decent population, but it was almost all people farming nodes while doing everything in their power to avoid combat.

Are people going to play through a version of Rivenspire that is 4x harder because now it drops gold Necropotence jewelry? What happens when you have farmed all your gold Necropotence jewelry or whatever set you are looking for? If you are doing it for better rewards, not fun, what happens when you get your rewards? Back to ghost towns?

The thing that makes Veteran Dungeons and Veteran Trials appeal to me is the complex mechanics and coordination between group members, etc. You cannot really add that to overland trash. About all you can do is give them more health and make them hit harder. Which might be more difficult but is not a fun difficult.

I did not answer the poll because I don't think either answer is appropriate. I think the overland is fine as it is. Hardcore veteran overland zones should not be available for purchase or added to base game. There is no need for hardcore overland content. Why does overland trash need to be hardcore? Who wants every overland area to turn into the equivalent of endless Sanctum Ophidia style trash pulls? I play a lot of difficult endgame content in my guild and a big groan goes up when Sanctum Ophidia is the weekly. Because no one likes the seemingly endless hardcore trash pulls. Overland content is just about nothing but endless trash pulls. That is going to get old, fast. And Veteran overland zones will be ghost towns again.

We have been down the difficult overland zones path before. It did not work then and I see little reason why it would work now.

MehrunesFlagon

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

Aesthier wrote: »

I do NOT believe that "veteran zones" are needed and would ultimately split the resources for the development of good content and fixes.

There is a much simpler solution.

Simplest Fix:

Implement a hardcore character mode at the character select screen which enabled veterans to create a toon that would suffer a permanent debuff that reduces all stats by a certain percentage on that specific character.

They could still play with their friends while enjoying the increased difficulty of "all" content.

This makes much more sense than creating new servers or implementing some type of toggle for players which lends itself to more breakage.

Hell ZoS could even implement new titles for those who complete certain content using said toons.

Just a simple lifetime debuff that is applied to the character on creation.

Do you even realize the effect that would have on those wanting to do trials where they need to have a min/maxed toon or close to it?

MehrunesFlagon

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

Kuwhar wrote: »

What i dont get is people saying they want harder content, but also better rewards.

Are you looking for a challenge or rewards? Whats the priority?

And wouldnt those better rewards then make that formerly challenging content easier, putting you back at square one?

Not if the reward is something cosmetic

Drummerx04

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

AuldWolf wrote: »

There are a lot of threads out there about more difficult overworld content, some of us understand that there's a problem with that, though...

Hardcore players don't pay. That's what I always see. ZOS couldn't support themselves via hardcore players because I believe they don't really want to pay their way. They just want to pay the bare minimum, and that's that.

Guild Wars 2 - Heart of Thorns proved that, eh?

ArenaNet built a hardcore expansion and it almost saw ArenaNet close their doors for the effort. Cash shop purchases dried up, they had no funds coming in. They had to apologise profusely, at length to the casual audience and redesign it to be more casual. Casual players pay their way. So many MMOs have ended up on life support or worse because they either tried to appeal to a hardcore demographic from the outset or chose to do so later on.

The reason why is basic psychology, really. It's due to how they see their role in the game, what they think the game actually is and what their place is in it. Whereas I see ESO as an entertainment product, they don't.

You see, hardcore players view their grinding as work. It's a job, they're just schmoes on the factory line and it's the job of the developer to reward them for their time and effort. This is really obvious from not only the precednet set by GW2, but also from threads I've seen here on these very forums.

An example of hardcore players expecting too much came about when it was suggested they could simply use white armour, drop their CP points, or even use no armour to raise the difficulty for themselves. They disdainfully dismissed this idea, snubbing their noses at the concept of having to make any effort outside of their perceived existing 'profession.' Casuals will make fun for themselves all the time, but the mere idea is unthinkable to the hardcore player.

An example of hardcore players believing that it's the job of the developer to reward them rather than making a profit arose with the angry threads that arose with the news of the factotum polymorph. ZOS is a business, money is important, and casual players have always been understanding of this and as supportive as their disposable income allows. However, with the hardcore mindset it was a cardinal sin to try to make money if that money took away from hardcore 'earnings' in any way. ZOS shouldn't try to make money, you see.

Casuals understand that they should pay their way if they want something. I want a crow pet. I'm not just going to be an obnoxious little snot and demand ZOS add such a thing. I'll ask, politely, and I'll pay the price they set out for it if they do decide to oblige. So this should be true of hardcore players too, yes? If a developer is expected to work, they should be paid!

That's just common sense.

That's not going to fly with hardcore players, though, in my opinion because they'll see it as the job of the developer to reward them for their 'work.' This is due to the aforementioned peculiar disconnect where the hardcore player doesn't seem to realise that the developer is a company selling a product meant for entertainment rather than an employer who's offering job opportunities. Whenever an 'employer' isn't providing proper rewards, if the 'work' has therefore dried up, they'll leave and find another source of 'employment' with more active rewards. The hardcore demographic isn't loyal to a game, they'll flit back and forth between titles depending on which is the latest with content. Which means that between content drops the developer wouldn't see any purchases made on their cash shop anyway, even if that ever did happen.

It's strange. It really is. I've just seen it too often though. I know that this is how it is and I want to prove that. I want to prove that there isn't a willingness to put their money where their mouth is. I want to do that because I don't want to see another title I love end up on life support if they decide to appeal to hardcore players more.

I feel casual players are very often subsidising hardcore players by paying far, far more than hardcore players ever do. Who buys the personalities, the houses, the furniture, the non-combat pets, the emotes, and so on? It's not the hardcore, they expect it to be a hand-out for 'working' on a veteran dungeon. And that's my point. Where tha hardcore see it as a 'job,' casual players understand it's actually an entertainment product. They see it more like, say, a vacationing spot.

As such, casual players are inclined to pay their way. They'll fund their favourite place as much as their disposable income allows as they understand that there are costs of running and upkeep. Even in periods where new attractions aren't being added to their favourite location, they'll keep putting money in to ensure it stays open, because they love that place so much. They'll continue to pay the entry fees, but they'll make their own fun to entertain themselves.

So the casuals will be roleplaying, making alts, and gathering lore to entertain themselves whilst paying, trusting that new attractions (new content) will turn up eventually. That's the difference.

The hardcore player pays little, yet expects much

The casual player pays much, but expects little.

So how do we do it? How do we prove that there's no future in supporting the hardcore? it's simple, really. Let's say that this can be an experiment. If this poll succeeds then ZOS can follow this as a means to profit off of hte hardcore. If it fails then it proves that there's no profit to be found with the hardcore. It's a concept elegant in its simplicity. You want it? You pay for it.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones from the cash shop? Each zone would be its own purchase and would be tailored to hardcore play. ZOS could release these zones in waves.

I would be okay with this. It wouldn't get rid fo their casual demographic as it wouldn't impede their ability to play. Therefore the reliable funds available to ZOS from casual players wouldn't go anywhere, and hardcore players could show their desire to fund ZOS's continued efforts.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones?

@AuldWolf Do you ever even talk to "hardcore players?"

Everyone I talk to in the "hardcore community" has at a minimum a subscription... and most have some or all of the following:

• useless crap from every season of crown crates,
• loads of costumes
• the banker and merchant assistants
• pre-ordered both chapters/expansions
• have multiple crown store mounts
• multiple apex mounts from crates
• have multiple player accounts
• a number of the 10k+ crown limited time housing options

The "hardcore players" maybe don't buy every single reskinned mount and costume, but it is completely asinine to suggest that we do nothing to support the game.

Sure, we could make the game "harder" by taking off all our clothes and CP and using garbage weapons... but all that does is turn a slow paced pathetic overland trash fight into a longer pathetic overland trash fight where maybe we can't handle 40+ mobs simultaneously.

Why is it wrong for "hardcore players" to ask for compelling gameplay with meaningful rewards?

What does ESO even offer without the hardcore content?

• vet Trials
• dlc dungeons
• pvp (which suffers from horrible performance issues even after 3+ years of subbing and buying things form ZOS while begging for them to fix it)

You are left with:

• Painfully shallow housing system with tons of mind boggling limitations
• Grinding materials and gear (which if there's no hardcore content isn't really useful)
• Collecting armor motifs, 90% of which you'll never even craft or look at more than once
• Selling things for gold to supplement the above
• Casual questing/exploration which eventually runs out
• RP?
• Lore
• A highly limited social media platform

And that's about it. Everything there (except maybe lore) is done better in other games.

"Hardcore players" are not asking for overland content to be turned into a waste disposal unit for your entire inventory of soul gems, but we think it would be nice if you had to weigh the risks of pulling 40 mobs at once by yourself.

Better yet, if they just FIXED THE F***ING HARDCORE CONTENT THEY ALREADY DEVELOPED AND RELEASED, we could just go play that and leave casual overland to everyone else.

Agenericname

AuldWolf wrote: »

There are a lot of threads out there about more difficult overworld content, some of us understand that there's a problem with that, though...

Hardcore players don't pay. That's what I always see. ZOS couldn't support themselves via hardcore players because I believe they don't really want to pay their way. They just want to pay the bare minimum, and that's that.

Guild Wars 2 - Heart of Thorns proved that, eh?

ArenaNet built a hardcore expansion and it almost saw ArenaNet close their doors for the effort. Cash shop purchases dried up, they had no funds coming in. They had to apologise profusely, at length to the casual audience and redesign it to be more casual. Casual players pay their way. So many MMOs have ended up on life support or worse because they either tried to appeal to a hardcore demographic from the outset or chose to do so later on.

The reason why is basic psychology, really. It's due to how they see their role in the game, what they think the game actually is and what their place is in it. Whereas I see ESO as an entertainment product, they don't.

You see, hardcore players view their grinding as work. It's a job, they're just schmoes on the factory line and it's the job of the developer to reward them for their time and effort. This is really obvious from not only the precednet set by GW2, but also from threads I've seen here on these very forums.

An example of hardcore players expecting too much came about when it was suggested they could simply use white armour, drop their CP points, or even use no armour to raise the difficulty for themselves. They disdainfully dismissed this idea, snubbing their noses at the concept of having to make any effort outside of their perceived existing 'profession.' Casuals will make fun for themselves all the time, but the mere idea is unthinkable to the hardcore player.

An example of hardcore players believing that it's the job of the developer to reward them rather than making a profit arose with the angry threads that arose with the news of the factotum polymorph. ZOS is a business, money is important, and casual players have always been understanding of this and as supportive as their disposable income allows. However, with the hardcore mindset it was a cardinal sin to try to make money if that money took away from hardcore 'earnings' in any way. ZOS shouldn't try to make money, you see.

Casuals understand that they should pay their way if they want something. I want a crow pet. I'm not just going to be an obnoxious little snot and demand ZOS add such a thing. I'll ask, politely, and I'll pay the price they set out for it if they do decide to oblige. So this should be true of hardcore players too, yes? If a developer is expected to work, they should be paid!

That's just common sense.

That's not going to fly with hardcore players, though, in my opinion because they'll see it as the job of the developer to reward them for their 'work.' This is due to the aforementioned peculiar disconnect where the hardcore player doesn't seem to realise that the developer is a company selling a product meant for entertainment rather than an employer who's offering job opportunities. Whenever an 'employer' isn't providing proper rewards, if the 'work' has therefore dried up, they'll leave and find another source of 'employment' with more active rewards. The hardcore demographic isn't loyal to a game, they'll flit back and forth between titles depending on which is the latest with content. Which means that between content drops the developer wouldn't see any purchases made on their cash shop anyway, even if that ever did happen.

It's strange. It really is. I've just seen it too often though. I know that this is how it is and I want to prove that. I want to prove that there isn't a willingness to put their money where their mouth is. I want to do that because I don't want to see another title I love end up on life support if they decide to appeal to hardcore players more.

I feel casual players are very often subsidising hardcore players by paying far, far more than hardcore players ever do. Who buys the personalities, the houses, the furniture, the non-combat pets, the emotes, and so on? It's not the hardcore, they expect it to be a hand-out for 'working' on a veteran dungeon. And that's my point. Where tha hardcore see it as a 'job,' casual players understand it's actually an entertainment product. They see it more like, say, a vacationing spot.

As such, casual players are inclined to pay their way. They'll fund their favourite place as much as their disposable income allows as they understand that there are costs of running and upkeep. Even in periods where new attractions aren't being added to their favourite location, they'll keep putting money in to ensure it stays open, because they love that place so much. They'll continue to pay the entry fees, but they'll make their own fun to entertain themselves.

So the casuals will be roleplaying, making alts, and gathering lore to entertain themselves whilst paying, trusting that new attractions (new content) will turn up eventually. That's the difference.

The hardcore player pays little, yet expects much

The casual player pays much, but expects little.

So how do we do it? How do we prove that there's no future in supporting the hardcore? it's simple, really. Let's say that this can be an experiment. If this poll succeeds then ZOS can follow this as a means to profit off of hte hardcore. If it fails then it proves that there's no profit to be found with the hardcore. It's a concept elegant in its simplicity. You want it? You pay for it.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones from the cash shop? Each zone would be its own purchase and would be tailored to hardcore play. ZOS could release these zones in waves.

I would be okay with this. It wouldn't get rid fo their casual demographic as it wouldn't impede their ability to play. Therefore the reliable funds available to ZOS from casual players wouldn't go anywhere, and hardcore players could show their desire to fund ZOS's continued efforts.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones?

Source? Particularly the data on which demographic pays for content.

Thanks.

Heka Cain

Yes! Let's buy our way through life!