[Poll] Hardcore Players -- Would You Buy Veteran-Difficulty Zones from the Crown Store?

AuldWolf

There are a lot of threads out there about more difficult overworld content, some of us understand that there's a problem with that, though...

Hardcore players don't pay. That's what I always see. ZOS couldn't support themselves via hardcore players because I believe they don't really want to pay their way. They just want to pay the bare minimum, and that's that.

Guild Wars 2 - Heart of Thorns proved that, eh?

ArenaNet built a hardcore expansion and it almost saw ArenaNet close their doors for the effort. Cash shop purchases dried up, they had no funds coming in. They had to apologise profusely, at length to the casual audience and redesign it to be more casual. Casual players pay their way. So many MMOs have ended up on life support or worse because they either tried to appeal to a hardcore demographic from the outset or chose to do so later on.

The reason why is basic psychology, really. It's due to how they see their role in the game, what they think the game actually is and what their place is in it. Whereas I see ESO as an entertainment product, they don't.

You see, hardcore players view their grinding as work. It's a job, they're just schmoes on the factory line and it's the job of the developer to reward them for their time and effort. This is really obvious from not only the precednet set by GW2, but also from threads I've seen here on these very forums.

An example of hardcore players expecting too much came about when it was suggested they could simply use white armour, drop their CP points, or even use no armour to raise the difficulty for themselves. They disdainfully dismissed this idea, snubbing their noses at the concept of having to make any effort outside of their perceived existing 'profession.' Casuals will make fun for themselves all the time, but the mere idea is unthinkable to the hardcore player.

An example of hardcore players believing that it's the job of the developer to reward them rather than making a profit arose with the angry threads that arose with the news of the factotum polymorph. ZOS is a business, money is important, and casual players have always been understanding of this and as supportive as their disposable income allows. However, with the hardcore mindset it was a cardinal sin to try to make money if that money took away from hardcore 'earnings' in any way. ZOS shouldn't try to make money, you see.

Casuals understand that they should pay their way if they want something. I want a crow pet. I'm not just going to be an obnoxious little snot and demand ZOS add such a thing. I'll ask, politely, and I'll pay the price they set out for it if they do decide to oblige. So this should be true of hardcore players too, yes? If a developer is expected to work, they should be paid!

That's just common sense.

That's not going to fly with hardcore players, though, in my opinion because they'll see it as the job of the developer to reward them for their 'work.' This is due to the aforementioned peculiar disconnect where the hardcore player doesn't seem to realise that the developer is a company selling a product meant for entertainment rather than an employer who's offering job opportunities. Whenever an 'employer' isn't providing proper rewards, if the 'work' has therefore dried up, they'll leave and find another source of 'employment' with more active rewards. The hardcore demographic isn't loyal to a game, they'll flit back and forth between titles depending on which is the latest with content. Which means that between content drops the developer wouldn't see any purchases made on their cash shop anyway, even if that ever did happen.

It's strange. It really is. I've just seen it too often though. I know that this is how it is and I want to prove that. I want to prove that there isn't a willingness to put their money where their mouth is. I want to do that because I don't want to see another title I love end up on life support if they decide to appeal to hardcore players more.

I feel casual players are very often subsidising hardcore players by paying far, far more than hardcore players ever do. Who buys the personalities, the houses, the furniture, the non-combat pets, the emotes, and so on? It's not the hardcore, they expect it to be a hand-out for 'working' on a veteran dungeon. And that's my point. Where tha hardcore see it as a 'job,' casual players understand it's actually an entertainment product. They see it more like, say, a vacationing spot.

As such, casual players are inclined to pay their way. They'll fund their favourite place as much as their disposable income allows as they understand that there are costs of running and upkeep. Even in periods where new attractions aren't being added to their favourite location, they'll keep putting money in to ensure it stays open, because they love that place so much. They'll continue to pay the entry fees, but they'll make their own fun to entertain themselves.

So the casuals will be roleplaying, making alts, and gathering lore to entertain themselves whilst paying, trusting that new attractions (new content) will turn up eventually. That's the difference.

The hardcore player pays little, yet expects much

The casual player pays much, but expects little.

So how do we do it? How do we prove that there's no future in supporting the hardcore? it's simple, really. Let's say that this can be an experiment. If this poll succeeds then ZOS can follow this as a means to profit off of hte hardcore. If it fails then it proves that there's no profit to be found with the hardcore. It's a concept elegant in its simplicity. You want it? You pay for it.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones from the cash shop? Each zone would be its own purchase and would be tailored to hardcore play. ZOS could release these zones in waves.

I would be okay with this. It wouldn't get rid fo their casual demographic as it wouldn't impede their ability to play. Therefore the reliable funds available to ZOS from casual players wouldn't go anywhere, and hardcore players could show their desire to fund ZOS's continued efforts.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones?

Ragebull

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

Stopped reading when you supported self gimping

Grabmoore

Biased Poll is biased. Solo DLC dungeons, there is your content.

Gargath

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

Stupid idea to force us to buy regular content twice, just a bit harder.

zTrok

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

It should be a feature with the base game really.

Acrolas

Vanity instances aren't needed.

But if ZOS wanted to take the beginner island maps and turn them into a Fortnite-style PVP battle royale DLC, sure why not.

All they'd need to do is remove all the mobs and add like, 4 bushes per map to hide in.

generalmyrick

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

of course! the rewards from the zones would probably be better too!

AuldWolf wrote: »

There are a lot of threads out there about more difficult overworld content, some of us understand that there's a problem with that, though...

Hardcore players don't pay. That's what I always see. ZOS couldn't support themselves via hardcore players because I believe they don't really want to pay their way. They just want to pay the bare minimum, and that's that.

Guild Wars 2 - Heart of Thorns proved that, eh?

ArenaNet built a hardcore expansion and it almost saw ArenaNet close their doors for the effort. Cash shop purchases dried up, they had no funds coming in. They had to apologise profusely, at length to the casual audience and redesign it to be more casual. Casual players pay their way. So many MMOs have ended up on life support or worse because they either tried to appeal to a hardcore demographic from the outset or chose to do so later on.

The reason why is basic psychology, really. It's due to how they see their role in the game, what they think the game actually is and what their place is in it. Whereas I see ESO as an entertainment product, they don't.

You see, hardcore players view their grinding as work. It's a job, they're just schmoes on the factory line and it's the job of the developer to reward them for their time and effort. This is really obvious from not only the precednet set by GW2, but also from threads I've seen here on these very forums.

An example of hardcore players expecting too much came about when it was suggested they could simply use white armour, drop their CP points, or even use no armour to raise the difficulty for themselves. They disdainfully dismissed this idea, snubbing their noses at the concept of having to make any effort outside of their perceived existing 'profession.' Casuals will make fun for themselves all the time, but the mere idea is unthinkable to the hardcore player.

An example of hardcore players believing that it's the job of the developer to reward them rather than making a profit arose with the angry threads that arose with the news of the factotum polymorph. ZOS is a business, money is important, and casual players have always been understanding of this and as supportive as their disposable income allows. However, with the hardcore mindset it was a cardinal sin to try to make money if that money took away from hardcore 'earnings' in any way. ZOS shouldn't try to make money, you see.

Casuals understand that they should pay their way if they want something. I want a crow pet. I'm not just going to be an obnoxious little snot and demand ZOS add such a thing. I'll ask, politely, and I'll pay the price they set out for it if they do decide to oblige. So this should be true of hardcore players too, yes? If a developer is expected to work, they should be paid!

That's just common sense.

That's not going to fly with hardcore players, though, in my opinion because they'll see it as the job of the developer to reward them for their 'work.' This is due to the aforementioned peculiar disconnect where the hardcore player doesn't seem to realise that the developer is a company selling a product meant for entertainment rather than an employer who's offering job opportunities. Whenever an 'employer' isn't providing proper rewards, if the 'work' has therefore dried up, they'll leave and find another source of 'employment' with more active rewards. The hardcore demographic isn't loyal to a game, they'll flit back and forth between titles depending on which is the latest with content. Which means that between content drops the developer wouldn't see any purchases made on their cash shop anyway, even if that ever did happen.

It's strange. It really is. I've just seen it too often though. I know that this is how it is and I want to prove that. I want to prove that there isn't a willingness to put their money where their mouth is. I want to do that because I don't want to see another title I love end up on life support if they decide to appeal to hardcore players more.

I feel casual players are very often subsidising hardcore players by paying far, far more than hardcore players ever do. Who buys the personalities, the houses, the furniture, the non-combat pets, the emotes, and so on? It's not the hardcore, they expect it to be a hand-out for 'working' on a veteran dungeon. And that's my point. Where tha hardcore see it as a 'job,' casual players understand it's actually an entertainment product. They see it more like, say, a vacationing spot.

As such, casual players are inclined to pay their way. They'll fund their favourite place as much as their disposable income allows as they understand that there are costs of running and upkeep. Even in periods where new attractions aren't being added to their favourite location, they'll keep putting money in to ensure it stays open, because they love that place so much. They'll continue to pay the entry fees, but they'll make their own fun to entertain themselves.

So the casuals will be roleplaying, making alts, and gathering lore to entertain themselves whilst paying, trusting that new attractions (new content) will turn up eventually. That's the difference.

The hardcore player pays little, yet expects much

The casual player pays much, but expects little.

So how do we do it? How do we prove that there's no future in supporting the hardcore? it's simple, really. Let's say that this can be an experiment. If this poll succeeds then ZOS can follow this as a means to profit off of hte hardcore. If it fails then it proves that there's no profit to be found with the hardcore. It's a concept elegant in its simplicity. You want it? You pay for it.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones from the cash shop? Each zone would be its own purchase and would be tailored to hardcore play. ZOS could release these zones in waves.

I would be okay with this. It wouldn't get rid fo their casual demographic as it wouldn't impede their ability to play. Therefore the reliable funds available to ZOS from casual players wouldn't go anywhere, and hardcore players could show their desire to fund ZOS's continued efforts.

Would you be willing to buy veteran versions of zones?

i think this is well written and thought out, very INSIGHTFUL. bravo!

Integral1900

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

I would certainly pay for a nerf me button, right now it’s such a faff taking of all the gear and switching cp on and of. A button that just switches it all to a standby setting would be good, I would pay for that, minimal effort for ZOS and other players don’t get their game messed with. Then just have it toggle the gear and cp back on in group dungeons?

redshirt_49

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

Remember Craglorn? That is exactly what it was for. And it failed hard. There just aren't enough of these hardcore players to make this viable. It seems like there are a lot because they tend to make their voices lound and well-heard.
This is because people who don't have much to complain about don't feel the need to shout out on the forums how happy and content they are with everything....even though they tend to be the majority.

That said, I'd spend money on any new zones they might have to offer. Veteran or not. The standard of quality in map design and quest variety has always impressed me in this game and see no reason not to continue funding these ventures.

Syncronaut

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

You can already nerf yourself. Just reset the CP tree and dont put any points into.

Nerftheforums

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

Despite you have some good points there, I'd like to point out some stuff.
1) Hardcore players pay eso+ in a percentage higher than casuals do (I assume), since they spend more time in game and the marginal utility of such tool is higher for the former rather than the casuals. Saying that hardcore players to not contribute to revenue generation for zos is just biased.
2) If not paying eso+ (and even if they do, in certain cases) , hardcore players buy dlcs dungeons that casuals, in general, might have a smaller interest in. This is true also for new chapters, as they contain hardcore content (trials, until now).
3) If you are a hardcore player, you don't give a damn about overland zones because you already did those when you were in the early phase of your "adventure" (if you are the kind of hardcore player that became so during the years in eso), or you generally don't give a damn about it (if you are the type of hardcore player that comes from another hardcore environment)
4) Selling the same content twice does not work and ruins brand image - terrible marketing idea.
5) Overland zones are not hardcore, they are the parts for casuals and newbies, every hardcore player in this game knows this.

To conclude, I would just like to say to stay moist.

Edited to change causals with casuals, stupid phone is acting stupid.

redspecter23

Why can't it just be a simple yes/no? I wouldn't buy it and don't support it in the base game either.

Destruent

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

Why should anyone buy for something, the game originally offers at release?
Imo ZOS needs to find a way, to make questing more appealing (difficulty-wise) to players who learned playing the game.

swirve

I would pay for vet Zones if it had a reason other than challenge much like vet vs normal content.

Gold gear dropping in vet zones, hell yeah... could be x10 harder than normal but id do it... or stuff that is useful for other hardcore content that casuals dont really care about or need.

Kawall

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

If it's a new content for hardcore players, absolutely! But if it's just an old zone with tougher enemies, then no. That's nonsense, it's like buying hard option in games.

Rain_Greyraven

Grabmoore wrote: »

Biased Poll is biased. Solo DLC dungeons, there is your content.

THIS^^^^

Gprime31

They need to fix this garbage before I even consider buying anything.

Robo_Hobo

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

Self-nerfing works to an extent. Removing CP, and maybe not using food buffs is generally the medium I found that feels acceptable, but when I start to downgrade my gear to white, cp 150 unenchanted stuff or less, it really starts to detract from other parts of the game - the sense of excitement and reward you feel when you gain something that makes you more powerful. It just leaves a hollow feeling when you have to strip all of that away just for a small sense of threat when questing.

That is to say, I'm not against that, but it would still be nice to be met halfway from ZOS in that regard with some sort of mechanic to introduce a difficulty slider, keeping it easy for those who like it easy, and adding some difficulty for those who like it difficult.

I wouldn't necessarily be against a "Difficult Zone DLC" like Craglorn, but I don't really want that either. Sure, I'd buy it and enjoy it, but it wouldn't fix the problem, it would just make the casual players unhappy that they don't get to enjoy the story content from that zone, and I don't want that to happen to them. It's bad enough that trial stories and dungeon dlcs quests, and old Craglorn, are/were closed off to them in my opinion. Although if you ask me, the real problem with Craglorn was the forced group questing moreso than the difficulty of it, but I'm sure the difficulty was a big part of it too since it was designed for groups. If there were a Difficult DLC made for solo difficulty to around, somewhat less than Vet Maelstrom difficulty, I think it'd do okay - but again, I'd still not fully support it unless there was an easy mode for casual questers.

If you meant just a DLC to have increased optional difficulty for anywhere, then yeah, I'd be willing to put my money behind that.

Rain_Greyraven

Gprime31 wrote: »

They need to fix this garbage before I even consider buying anything.

Hard Cores never buy anything anyway, they view the game as a Job and that they should work said Job for whatever they get.

So Hard cores rarely actual play and usually just spend time being as salty as possible on the forums.

Destruent

No -- It should be part of the base game, I shouldn't have to buy it.

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Gprime31 wrote: »

They need to fix this garbage before I even consider buying anything.

Hard Cores never buy anything anyway, they view the game as a Job and that they should work said Job for whatever they get.

So Hard cores rarely actual play and usually just spend time being as salty as possible on the forums.

you clearly never really met hardcore players.

OutLaw_Nynx

Bad poll is bad.


Go play Dark Souls or Bloodborne. Take your pick.

generalmyrick

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

I think op has proved their point to an astonishing degree. It is quite comical that "they" cant even see it.

idk

I do not see the poll as relevant.

Zos will create content they can sell to the greater audience and in that they do add content for the "hardcore" in the form of trials.

As for zones, they make them for everyone so they will be scaled accordingly. It really comes down to a business decision on what makes sense and OP's suggestion does not.

Besides OP's suggestion of what will not fly with hard core players is incorrect. Hard core players are in vet trials working on vCR +3 and other HMs and in PvP pretty seriously. I do not see them in these threads saying they want tough open world mobs.

EDIT: just as they know the forum polls are entertainment only since the sampling is not properly done to provide a statistical result worthy to consider. Not to mention this poll in this thread is very poorly worded.

AuldWolf

And look at that poll.

Point made. Hopefully ZOS takes note.

If it were me, I'd pay for vet zones if I wanted that. I actually would. I mean that, 100 per cent. I buy a lot from the crown store.

If you're not willing to pay for it, don't ask for it.

idk

AuldWolf wrote: »

And look at that poll.

Point made. Hopefully ZOS takes note.

If it were me, I'd pay for vet zones if I wanted that. I actually would. I mean that, 100 per cent. I buy a lot from the crown store.

If you're not willing to pay for it, don't ask for it.

A clearly biased and poorly prepared forum poll is supposed to mean something? Not even 100 people cared enough to vote.

BTW, Forum polls are not even statistically relevant. They are entertainment value only, in any forum, even when they are prepared in a on biased manner.

Zos understands that very well.

Zerowaffles

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

You say that casual players pay for a lot more things from the crown store even though literally every end game player owns eso plus for the craft bag. As you know eso plus gives crowns each month so obviously hardcore players buy items from the crown store too right?

It's not just casuals who contribute to the game.. If anything casuals just tend to buy the dlc seperately and never touch eso plus.. So in other words hardcore players contribute as much as casuals do and in some cases even more.

Me and many others have been supporting the game since launch and if we are asking for something to be added to game it's up to zos to make the decision but we can still voice our opinions and problems.

Challenging zones and quests is something a lot of people want and I'm sure there's a good way to approach this without ending up with a failure.

Honestly I don't know why I still quest other than to get the achievements and a sense of completion by doing everything. If I didn't have that mindset I would never touch questing again because theres no progression between zones what so ever.

Sharee

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

If there was some incentive to play there, sure.

themaddaedra

You just stole 5 minutes from my life.

Cheetac19

This idea of hardcore players not spending money is absolutely not my experience at all.

Me and my group of friends (when we all used to game 24/7 lol) got deep into a game when we played. Definitely "hardcore" and we spent obnoxious amounts of money. A buddy of mine was known to drop upwards of a thousand dollars a week. I never had that kind of money, but I absolutely threw all of my expendable income at the game, as did my best friend.

In my experience hardcore players seem to spend more. Buying dlc, making their characters look badass, increasing chances on upgrades (in games that applies to.) Of course I still 100% expect the devs to put out content. Yes, the base game absolutely should contain mounts, outfits, pets, and content. Complaining about a lack of those things doesn't make us entitled. It's what makes a good MMO great.

Emma_Overload

Yes -- I would spend money to buy veteran zones.

redshirt_49 wrote: »

Remember Craglorn? That is exactly what it was for. And it failed hard. There just aren't enough of these hardcore players to make this viable. It seems like there are a lot because they tend to make their voices lound and well-heard.
This is because people who don't have much to complain about don't feel the need to shout out on the forums how happy and content they are with everything....even though they tend to be the majority.

That said, I'd spend money on any new zones they might have to offer. Veteran or not. The standard of quality in map design and quest variety has always impressed me in this game and see no reason not to continue funding these ventures.

Craglorn didn't fail because it was too hard, it failed because of all the quests that required grouping.

AuldWolf

Poll continues to be no. What about the wages of the ZOS employees who'd be working on balancing the zones to fit hardcore tastes? Do they not deserve your money?

You want thing X. Person/Group Y must make thing X for you. Person/Group Y is paid for their time. That's how it works.

And yet you don't want to buy veteran zones. It's right there in the poll.

Why do they not deserve to be paid?

I pay them if they design a costume, pet, personality, house, or what have you that I like. If you want something, why aren't you willing to pay for it? It's a transaction. ZOS is a business, not a charity.