Scattershot and Meatbag in Pvp right now (Non-CP)

wozborne

Joy_Division wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

So how do you propose we defend against 30 players coming through the breech killing us instantly with rune cage and broken sorc executes? Not to mention getting hit by attackers armor procs on the second floor from the ground while trying to defend. If anything oils need strengthened against players as they still stand in them, the ram dissolves but the players live. lol

It's harder because the seige mechanics you are so happy about absolutely destroy the players on the top dropping the oils.

If the defenders are outnumbered in a keep, all the can do against a front door attack is put 2 cats by the back flag and have a 3rd very exposed on by the door. The only oils that can be used with any consistency are from the sides of the stairs. The attackers are free to set up as they wish on the porch and can even get into the front door uncontested. The attackers can put more siege into the castle than defenders can counter with. That's the big problem people who love siege and think it's perfectly ok to press a button and automatically destroy players, the other side gets to use the same mechanics so if there are more of them, you'll still lose.

I hate to burst bubbles here, but pretty much the only guarantee that your outnumbered force is supposed to defend a keep against 30+ players coming through the breech is for your force to be good and skilled at the game.

So as a class rep, what’s your solution to this seige “problem”? If it’s giving it a blanket nerf for the sake of the No-cp campaign, that’s not gonna cut it. PC may have an active No CP PvP scene, but here on consoles our no-cp campaigns are no-barred 97% of the time. A blanket nerf would kill our ability to use an easily obtainable weapon to combat the rampant ball groups in Vivec, which is the only campaign anyone cares about.

wozborne

Checkmath wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

nice idea, when every place is denied in the enemy keep

You are a class rep and exaggerate that much?
Use some tactics and make another breech on the opposite side.
You do know there is a siege limit right?
Not only that the projectile arc doesn't let you hit directly below or is too long to hit many places in the keep.

even as class rep i am allowed to exaggerate, but actually i didnt.
i already have seen enough of the new catapults and it is very unfair, when 5 people can defend a keep against 30 by just placing each one catapult. and yes, the whole inner keep around the flags is covered by those aoes, when you do it right. so basically the chance to turn flags is close to zero.
i saw enough groups, who should be able to push a keep (which should be a viable possibility), but they didnt, they died within seconds. i saw guilds leaving no cp campaign because of the state of sieges. i am not mad, since i earned tons of AP too by those catapults, only placing one down and a left clock from time to time grants you several thousands of AP. this can be done by anyone, it doesnt require skill, only left click spamming. meanwhile the player has no value anymore in a keep. if you dont have sieges, you are worthless, because you cant do that much aoe damage by yourself and additionally you probably die by going to a breach and trying something.

about your suggestions:
sure a breach on the other side works for sure, if we talk about the outer wall. then its no problem. i have seen keeps with more than 3 breaches in the outer, it just took very long to do so and around 40 attackers.
the siege limit isnt a problem, since the defenders do not even need 5 catapults per breach, so they can cover 4-6 breaches (just place one additional player to each breach with time stop spam).
now about the inner keep fight. there isnt even space for defenders to reach the siege limit with catapults. additionally to successfully push a defended inner keep you need two big groups, both pushing one breach at the same time and even then a victory is surely not guaranteed, since pretty much every meter between and around the flags can be covered with aoes from catapults, additionally stacking aoe at the breaches ticking for 3k each. i havent seen much succesfull keep turnings lately, when the attacker had less than 20 people against a few defenders with catapults.
the projectile arc isnt a problem at all neither, there are enough places to set up the catapults to simultaniously deny different keep areas. also can they be placed, such that two catapults can cover the others area if even necessary.
there is place for around 8 catapults in the inner keep and you can cover every centimeter from postern wall to postern wall to maingate with those. that makes more than two sieges per breach, meanwhile those not facing an actual breach can deny the area around flags and more. additionally we didnt even mention oil, which comes on top of that. basically with 10 people you can deny the whole inner keep with 8 catapults and at least 4 times oil.

I think that it is absolutely fair. Defenders should have advantage. If you cannot take the keep go and flag another one. Not everything in the game should be achieved with brute force. Use some tactics, this is what the Cyro PvP is lacking.

ok that sounds fair, but atm you can hold a keep with 5 people against 20+ enemies.

The irony in this is astounding to me. People always reminisce about the “good old days” of 1.6 and before where one person could take on a whole group of people (not through skill mind you, but through better gear). But now, when 5 people coordinating their siege are able to hold back ball zergs, siege is suddenly Sloads-levels of broken and must be nerfed.

Drakkdjinn

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel

Oxalias

What the hell is the op, was he just sitting in the aoes or something

Drakkdjinn

Oxalias wrote: »

What the hell is the op, was he just sitting in the aoes or something

Not hard to do when they cover the whole map this patch, Ox.

TequilaFire

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Oxalias wrote: »

What the hell is the op, was he just sitting in the aoes or something

Not hard to do when they cover the whole map this patch, Ox.

Why do you people have to exaggerate so much and pass fake info to make your point.

Fur_like_snow

I’ve been playing mostly in kyne(no CP) since the patch I like siege in its current form but I’d just reduce the size of the circle by 1/3. With that said I’ve had successful and unsuccessful tower fights that swung one way or the other because of a well placed scattershot. It’s obvious many players are not up to speed on the great risk of entering an area of effect.

kpittsniperb14_ESO

jaime1982 wrote: »

I think the dmg is ok. It has to be worth keeping the player off the field (fight) and stationary able to be damaged or killed.

Yeah because a single right click of the mouse button or other bound key won"t instantaneously pull you off the siege?

LinearParadox wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

In eso live they discussed this, and the idea is that you’re given a large warning sign on the ground that they want you to feel compelled to evacuate from. In theory it will stop zergs from “stacking on the crown”.

This.
I didn't even point out (didn't think I had to) those "huge" numbers in those pics that look all impressive and shocking... they have little numbers next to them... 4s... 5s... 7s...
You're STANDING IN IT. -_-
In PvE dungeons, they call that "standing in stupid".
Try avoiding the hazards?
Can't get through the choke? Too bad. That's called a well-defined keep.
Open another hole in the wall on the other side. There's much less space for siege inside the keep walls, than outside. Open another hole and counter-siege them.
Use ranged attacks to get them off their siege, etc.
Try using a little strategy besides zerg rushing and face-tanking their defenses.

The biggest issue us that the games imbalances have been training people to play braindead, to not think of solutions, of strategy.
There's only been one thing: numbers. And you either have them or you don't. Each individual player is held responsible for nothing, because they win or lose based on zerg size 95% of the time.

And somehow left clicking a mouse button over and over and over again dropping destro staff ultimate type of damage isn't considered brain dead game play at all? This is the most zerg empowering tool ever put into the game by ZOS. Zergs have the numbers to drop multiple siege at any given fight. The smaller groups do not.

CompM4s wrote: »

Siege seems fine. Getting hit by a giant boulder or bolt should kill fairly easy. Gives defending people a chance when outnumbered. I have enjoy working for a keep and utilizing different siege strategies

And being able to pull one out of your left pocket and have it placed within 2 seconds is realistic as well I suppose? Where are you packing those giant bolts or rocks that you are using for ammunition? I thought siege weapons were crew served weapons requiring multiple people to operate not a single person. Also realistically didn't they take a long time to reload? Let's leave reality out of our fantasy based MMO and focus on the "is this balanced and healthy for the game discussion".

This thread is about Non CP siege damage which has always been over tuned but much more so this patch. I would suppose that in CP siege is closer to balance but only have limited experience in CP this patch so I may be wrong. I might also agree in some way that while defending a keep siege should be strong however, siege is in open field fights is the main problem in my experience. I also find it amusing that all of the scenarios laid out by supporters of the "siege meta" involve them as the poor, highly skilled, outnumbered heroic defenders against the unwashed braindead zombie apocalypse zerg when in my experience it is that same zombie apocalypse zerg that benefits most from over tuned siege damage to ensure victory against smaller numbers. Smaller groups just don't have the bodies to lay down siege and can't afford to be stationary when fighting much larger numbers open field.

And let's talk about what actually happens on campaigns that have a lopsided population. You may truly believe that siege can be a great equalizer but it doesn't work out that way in reality. Stronger siege means more need to zerg, not less and who has the ability to zerg better than the largest faction? Outnumbered factions are relegated to defense only this patch and aren't able to defend inner keeps effectively once the outer is breached due to silly keep design. Hit an undefended keep you say. Use strategy man.....yeah let's promote more pvp door because Cyrodiil doesn't have enough pve content already.

In larger campaigns do we really need to slow down keep attacks requiring larger groups of zergs to stack up even more creating more lag and performance issues. Those persistent ground effects aren't really causing more server calculations are they? I digress however, as those issues are more related to CP.

The bottom line is that when open field fights consist of mostly siege usage something is overtuned. If I wanted to play a game that only required me to left click and insta gib, I'd be playing an FPS. A reasonable solution would be to limit siege usage to a radius around keeps and outposts and tone down the damage in non CP in my opinion.

TequilaFire

In open field siege battles the person using siege is even more open to attack because they are helpless on siege and your one button gank can kill them. Where do you keep that infinite supply of lethal arrows anyway?

TequilaFire

dbl post

Vapirko

Personally very happy with the new siege changes, could be a bit stronger in CP.

Drakkdjinn

TequilaFire wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Oxalias wrote: »

What the hell is the op, was he just sitting in the aoes or something

Not hard to do when they cover the whole map this patch, Ox.

Why do you people have to exaggerate so much and pass fake info to make your point.

You're right that was unfair of me, they only cover the parts of the map that people actually play on in their entirety.

rfennell_ESO

Vapirko wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Right now in Kyne it is Siege Vs Siege. Whoever can Siege first and proc sload is the winner.

Sloads procing on siege is by far the dumbest *** ever invented in this game. When I saw that first happen I was convinced Id seen ZOS go as low as they can.

It's just like vicious death also proccing on siege.

Combine the 2 and it's lol.

Asardes

I play mostly no-CP and there are a number of tactics that work well against siege engines:
- place a siege shield directly on the choke point
- cast Barrier and Maneuver and enter at the same time trough a keep door or wall breech
- have HoTs ticking on everyone and purge frequently, or at least have a Templar give people synergy
- for people in the battering ram Deep Thoughts works wonders, since it gives Major Protection (30% damage reduction) and recovers your resources. So if you recast your buffs and HoTs and go into Deep Thoughts you will be fine.

leepalmer95

I love this thread, its so funny.

Zerglings are angry they can't just swarm a keep with sheer numbers.

Class reps throwing some serious bias on a discussion, maybe thats why I've come back into the game and its somehow got worse. Passing along their own opinion i guess?

If a breach is full of siege take 6 people and go siege behind the keep. It's that simple.