Scattershot and Meatbag in Pvp right now (Non-CP)

gabriebe

It`s more in situations where pretty much all sides are down, usually last emp keep battles. The regular fire siege was not too hard to purge and outheal but you just cant do that with scattershots,

TequilaFire

gabriebe wrote: »

It`s more in situations where pretty much all sides are down, usually last emp keep battles. The regular fire siege was not too hard to purge and outheal but you just cant do that with scattershots,

I agree but that is how they should be. That is why tactics need to be used to take them out by pushing out of the inner keep or outer wall if they are outside and taking them out.
Most emp keep battles are a cluster anyway because of 3 alliances fighting each other.

p00tx

You're confusing "coordination" with "skill". It does not take skill to coordinate a large group of people to move in the same direction at the same time. Patience maybe, especially with the squirrel-like personalities of many people I've encountered, but not skill.

Skill would lead to your leader telling you to break right when you enter the inner keep so you can refocus, heal up, and fight the flag guards out of the oils.

Skill would lead to your leader telling the majority of the group to rush the stairs to handle the siegers above (with a little help from well-timed Barriers), so that a small contingent can stay below and take flags while the rest handle the enemies up top.

Skill would have told you to place your siege under the outer postern in the first place so you weren't chewed up before you entered the keep (The porch is not the entirety of the keep. There are plenty of places to siege from).

Skill would have told your team not to stupidly do cartwheels in the oils on the porch, firing light attacks at the players above while only 2-3 other people put down siege because you believe your cute little light attacks can take out players strategically placed on a defended keep while they rain down siege on you.

From what I've seen, the players who have any actual skill or strategic knowledge in Cyrodil are few and far between. I know it's something that comes with practice, but you have to be willing to break the zerg mentality and learn to read the field, or you will end up getting chewed up while the rest adapt to the changes that are designed to break up these hoards of players.

RealPhoenix

Checkmath wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

In eso live they discussed this, and the idea is that you’re given a large warning sign on the ground that they want you to feel compelled to evacuate from. In theory it will stop zergs from “stacking on the crown”.

This.
I didn't even point out (didn't think I had to) those "huge" numbers in those pics that look all impressive and shocking... they have little numbers next to them... 4s... 5s... 7s...
You're STANDING IN IT. -_-
In PvE dungeons, they call that "standing in stupid".
Try avoiding the hazards?
Can't get through the choke? Too bad. That's called a well-defined keep.
Open another hole in the wall on the other side. There's much less space for siege inside the keep walls, than outside. Open another hole and counter-siege them.
Use ranged attacks to get them off their siege, etc.
Try using a little strategy besides zerg rushing and face-tanking their defenses.

The biggest issue us that the games imbalances have been training people to play braindead, to not think of solutions, of strategy.
There's only been one thing: numbers. And you either have them or you don't. Each individual player is held responsible for nothing, because they win or lose based on zerg size 95% of the time.

maybe you should read again the OP. OP played in a highly coordinated guild group with constant speedbuff, purge and huge healing output given and they didnt make it through a breach. Atm fights in no cp pvp around keeps take very long, because you really need to take down half of the walls to be able to get into the keep.
you just said, that the inner keep is then an easier task, which is actually wrong. in the inner keep most attackers die, because there is no place at all, where you can avoid damage, since every spot is covered by oil and catapults.
catapults where weak before summerset, but sieges not at all. we are talking about no cp pvp, where a fire ballista or a stone trebuchet can one shot people. and i didnt even mention coldfire ballistas and trebuchets yet.
Please have a look again at the pictures OP posted, they are all in the inner keep. you said he died, because he played dumb and stood in the aoe. once again: OP plays in a good coordinated guild with heal and purge "bots", but they died. they died because there is no single spot left in the inner keep, where you arent defiled or damaged. thats the problem, the aoes are huge and stack and you can pretty much cover the whole inner keep with 3 or 4 catapults with a huge damage output.

Thank you for this, right on point.

RealPhoenix

LinearParadox wrote: »

I didn't misread or misunderstand. What you said is exactly what I was talking about.
"Well coordinated group, purge and heal bots, etc" those kinds of groups expect to be able to power through siege damage by stacking abilities. That shouldn't have ever been possible, now it's not, and people don't want to adjust.
They keep beating their head against a wall rather than changing their strategy just like I said.
People are still thinking in zerg terms; oh maybe we need more purge monkies, maybe we need more heal bots, etc etc etc. They keep trying to make the zerg murderball rush work but it WON'T.
Let me stress again... THATS A GOOD THING.

Siege damage is up, AoE caps are finally history, and you can't abuse them anymore to blitz past 6 siege at a choke point.
You've gotta adapt. You CAN adapt. People just don't want to. They wanna turn their brains off and zerg surf to victory through numbers... against a mechanic that's specifically designed to counter numbers.

You are just missing one thing:

Sieging absolutely takes NO effort from the player. The siege barely costs any AP. You do not need Resources (Stamina, Magicka) to operate a siege. They can be operated from far, far away - way outside of the reach of the players who have to fight in it. Essentially, there is no risk involved in sieging, but the reward is huge. This is not skill-based pvp, THIS is what you describe above as "turning the brains off and just [sieging] to victory".

You keep talking about zergs here. My screenshots are taken from a group that runs with a strict maximum of 12 players, mostly we are 8-10 at the moment.

I do get that you are upset about the 40+ man groups that rush through stuff, but bear in mind that making siege that strong punishes smaller groups or solo players even more, because its practically impossible for them to fight in these scenarios at the moment.

Also, for clarity: I also don´t think people should be able to stand in siege and survive without even bothering, but the fact that scattershot and meatbag catapults both increase your damage taken AND reduce your healing done while standing in them (and for a short duration after) while also covering HUGE areas and lasting very long makes it a pain to fight in tighter spots.
Removing the possibility for these sieges to STACK on the same area would probably already make the current state of these siege engines bearable, but the way it is right now is just ridiculous.


If siege is supposed to be a strong weapon in this game (like it would be in real life, like some people mentioned) there must be an EFFORT for the player to actually be able to siege. It can´t be that you can just carry hundreds of sieges that do insane amounts of damage while the only thing you do is spamming left click.
This is what some people often forget: To be realistic and fun, a game should be based off risk / reward. Just placing a siege down and doing more damage than most player abilities would makes no sense to me.

TequilaFire

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

I didn't misread or misunderstand. What you said is exactly what I was talking about.
"Well coordinated group, purge and heal bots, etc" those kinds of groups expect to be able to power through siege damage by stacking abilities. That shouldn't have ever been possible, now it's not, and people don't want to adjust.
They keep beating their head against a wall rather than changing their strategy just like I said.
People are still thinking in zerg terms; oh maybe we need more purge monkies, maybe we need more heal bots, etc etc etc. They keep trying to make the zerg murderball rush work but it WON'T.
Let me stress again... THATS A GOOD THING.

Siege damage is up, AoE caps are finally history, and you can't abuse them anymore to blitz past 6 siege at a choke point.
You've gotta adapt. You CAN adapt. People just don't want to. They wanna turn their brains off and zerg surf to victory through numbers... against a mechanic that's specifically designed to counter numbers.

You are just missing one thing:

Sieging absolutely takes NO effort from the player. The siege barely costs any AP. You do not need Resources (Stamina, Magicka) to operate a siege. They can be operated from far, far away - way outside of the reach of the players who have to fight in it. Essentially, there is no risk involved in sieging, but the reward is huge. This is not skill-based pvp, THIS is what you describe above as "turning the brains off and just [sieging] to victory".

You keep talking about zergs here. My screenshots are taken from a group that runs with a strict maximum of 12 players, mostly we are 8-10 at the moment.

I do get that you are upset about the 40+ man groups that rush through stuff, but bear in mind that making siege that strong punishes smaller groups or solo players even more, because its practically impossible for them to fight in these scenarios at the moment.

Also, for clarity: I also don´t think people should be able to stand in siege and survive without even bothering, but the fact that scattershot and meatbag catapults both increase your damage taken AND reduce your healing done while standing in them (and for a short duration after) while also covering HUGE areas and lasting very long makes it a pain to fight in tighter spots.
Removing the possibility for these sieges to STACK on the same area would probably already make the current state of these siege engines bearable, but the way it is right now is just ridiculous.


If siege is supposed to be a strong weapon in this game (like it would be in real life, like some people mentioned) there must be an EFFORT for the player to actually be able to siege. It can´t be that you can just carry hundreds of sieges that do insane amounts of damage while the only thing you do is spamming left click.
This is what some people often forget: To be realistic and fun, a game should be based off risk / reward. Just placing a siege down and doing more damage than most player abilities would makes no sense to me.

Effort? Nothing in a make believe button pushing game takes effort, not even your make believe Rambo play.

Thogard

So we took a four man to sotha last night and after reading this post we bought some scattershot. We took a tower and waited.

We were not disappointed. Holy *** was that free AP easy to get lol.

Toc de Malsvi

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

I didn't misread or misunderstand. What you said is exactly what I was talking about.
"Well coordinated group, purge and heal bots, etc" those kinds of groups expect to be able to power through siege damage by stacking abilities. That shouldn't have ever been possible, now it's not, and people don't want to adjust.
They keep beating their head against a wall rather than changing their strategy just like I said.
People are still thinking in zerg terms; oh maybe we need more purge monkies, maybe we need more heal bots, etc etc etc. They keep trying to make the zerg murderball rush work but it WON'T.
Let me stress again... THATS A GOOD THING.

Siege damage is up, AoE caps are finally history, and you can't abuse them anymore to blitz past 6 siege at a choke point.
You've gotta adapt. You CAN adapt. People just don't want to. They wanna turn their brains off and zerg surf to victory through numbers... against a mechanic that's specifically designed to counter numbers.

You are just missing one thing:

Sieging absolutely takes NO effort from the player. The siege barely costs any AP. You do not need Resources (Stamina, Magicka) to operate a siege. They can be operated from far, far away - way outside of the reach of the players who have to fight in it. Essentially, there is no risk involved in sieging, but the reward is huge. This is not skill-based pvp, THIS is what you describe above as "turning the brains off and just [sieging] to victory".

You keep talking about zergs here. My screenshots are taken from a group that runs with a strict maximum of 12 players, mostly we are 8-10 at the moment.

I do get that you are upset about the 40+ man groups that rush through stuff, but bear in mind that making siege that strong punishes smaller groups or solo players even more, because its practically impossible for them to fight in these scenarios at the moment.

Also, for clarity: I also don´t think people should be able to stand in siege and survive without even bothering, but the fact that scattershot and meatbag catapults both increase your damage taken AND reduce your healing done while standing in them (and for a short duration after) while also covering HUGE areas and lasting very long makes it a pain to fight in tighter spots.
Removing the possibility for these sieges to STACK on the same area would probably already make the current state of these siege engines bearable, but the way it is right now is just ridiculous.


If siege is supposed to be a strong weapon in this game (like it would be in real life, like some people mentioned) there must be an EFFORT for the player to actually be able to siege. It can´t be that you can just carry hundreds of sieges that do insane amounts of damage while the only thing you do is spamming left click.
This is what some people often forget: To be realistic and fun, a game should be based off risk / reward. Just placing a siege down and doing more damage than most player abilities would makes no sense to me.

Effort? Nothing in a make believe button pushing game takes effort, not even your make believe Rambo play.

Bro! Spamming BoL and Purge is LEET! Follow the crown!!!

Marabornwingrion

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

RealPhoenix

TequilaFire wrote: »

Effort? Nothing in a make believe button pushing game takes effort, not even your make believe Rambo play.

If you say so^^

RealPhoenix

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

TequilaFire

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

Checkmath

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

nice idea, when every place is denied in the enemy keep

Damien_Uvirith

I've personally enjoyed returning to ESO for Summerset with the changes to catapults (Not so much with the plethora of other issues). There are actually ''good sieges'' again (At least on PC NA Vivec) with massive siege lines and people actually trying instead of just piling around the FD.

It's be a looong time since I've seen Chalman busted out with 3 walls down and the FD, and then again with BRK in the same day. Now it seems to happen on a regular basis. Which again, I'm glad to see.

PvD is boring. At least things have been somewhat shaken up now. I don't even know how many ball zergs I've seen break in half because they ran through a borrowed time on top of a ton of siege, instead of going in a different breach.

That being said I don't play the Non-CP Campaign, but can imagine wanting to see the damage scaled back somewhat as OP mentioned being done with guards between CP and Non-CP.

TequilaFire

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

nice idea, when every place is denied in the enemy keep

You are a class rep and exaggerate that much?
Use some tactics and make another breech on the opposite side.
You do know there is a siege limit right?
Not only that the projectile arc doesn't let you hit directly below or is too long to hit many places in the keep.

Drakkdjinn

+1

noCP is 100% left click heros at this point b/c of demonstrably overtuned siege, its like spamming free ranged destro ults the size of texas from a scattershot atm; they're more powerful than coldfire, the rare siege type

ZoS needs to L2QA

TequilaFire

Agreed siege and NPCs need rebalanced for noCP.
However, in CP campaigns players still stand in it and heal through it like it wasn't there.

Checkmath

TequilaFire wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

nice idea, when every place is denied in the enemy keep

You are a class rep and exaggerate that much?
Use some tactics and make another breech on the opposite side.
You do know there is a siege limit right?
Not only that the projectile arc doesn't let you hit directly below or is too long to hit many places in the keep.

even as class rep i am allowed to exaggerate, but actually i didnt.
i already have seen enough of the new catapults and it is very unfair, when 5 people can defend a keep against 30 by just placing each one catapult. and yes, the whole inner keep around the flags is covered by those aoes, when you do it right. so basically the chance to turn flags is close to zero.
i saw enough groups, who should be able to push a keep (which should be a viable possibility), but they didnt, they died within seconds. i saw guilds leaving no cp campaign because of the state of sieges. i am not mad, since i earned tons of AP too by those catapults, only placing one down and a left clock from time to time grants you several thousands of AP. this can be done by anyone, it doesnt require skill, only left click spamming. meanwhile the player has no value anymore in a keep. if you dont have sieges, you are worthless, because you cant do that much aoe damage by yourself and additionally you probably die by going to a breach and trying something.

about your suggestions:
sure a breach on the other side works for sure, if we talk about the outer wall. then its no problem. i have seen keeps with more than 3 breaches in the outer, it just took very long to do so and around 40 attackers.
the siege limit isnt a problem, since the defenders do not even need 5 catapults per breach, so they can cover 4-6 breaches (just place one additional player to each breach with time stop spam).
now about the inner keep fight. there isnt even space for defenders to reach the siege limit with catapults. additionally to successfully push a defended inner keep you need two big groups, both pushing one breach at the same time and even then a victory is surely not guaranteed, since pretty much every meter between and around the flags can be covered with aoes from catapults, additionally stacking aoe at the breaches ticking for 3k each. i havent seen much succesfull keep turnings lately, when the attacker had less than 20 people against a few defenders with catapults.
the projectile arc isnt a problem at all neither, there are enough places to set up the catapults to simultaniously deny different keep areas. also can they be placed, such that two catapults can cover the others area if even necessary.
there is place for around 8 catapults in the inner keep and you can cover every centimeter from postern wall to postern wall to maingate with those. that makes more than two sieges per breach, meanwhile those not facing an actual breach can deny the area around flags and more. additionally we didnt even mention oil, which comes on top of that. basically with 10 people you can deny the whole inner keep with 8 catapults and at least 4 times oil.

Bashev

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

nice idea, when every place is denied in the enemy keep

You are a class rep and exaggerate that much?
Use some tactics and make another breech on the opposite side.
You do know there is a siege limit right?
Not only that the projectile arc doesn't let you hit directly below or is too long to hit many places in the keep.

even as class rep i am allowed to exaggerate, but actually i didnt.
i already have seen enough of the new catapults and it is very unfair, when 5 people can defend a keep against 30 by just placing each one catapult. and yes, the whole inner keep around the flags is covered by those aoes, when you do it right. so basically the chance to turn flags is close to zero.
i saw enough groups, who should be able to push a keep (which should be a viable possibility), but they didnt, they died within seconds. i saw guilds leaving no cp campaign because of the state of sieges. i am not mad, since i earned tons of AP too by those catapults, only placing one down and a left clock from time to time grants you several thousands of AP. this can be done by anyone, it doesnt require skill, only left click spamming. meanwhile the player has no value anymore in a keep. if you dont have sieges, you are worthless, because you cant do that much aoe damage by yourself and additionally you probably die by going to a breach and trying something.

about your suggestions:
sure a breach on the other side works for sure, if we talk about the outer wall. then its no problem. i have seen keeps with more than 3 breaches in the outer, it just took very long to do so and around 40 attackers.
the siege limit isnt a problem, since the defenders do not even need 5 catapults per breach, so they can cover 4-6 breaches (just place one additional player to each breach with time stop spam).
now about the inner keep fight. there isnt even space for defenders to reach the siege limit with catapults. additionally to successfully push a defended inner keep you need two big groups, both pushing one breach at the same time and even then a victory is surely not guaranteed, since pretty much every meter between and around the flags can be covered with aoes from catapults, additionally stacking aoe at the breaches ticking for 3k each. i havent seen much succesfull keep turnings lately, when the attacker had less than 20 people against a few defenders with catapults.
the projectile arc isnt a problem at all neither, there are enough places to set up the catapults to simultaniously deny different keep areas. also can they be placed, such that two catapults can cover the others area if even necessary.
there is place for around 8 catapults in the inner keep and you can cover every centimeter from postern wall to postern wall to maingate with those. that makes more than two sieges per breach, meanwhile those not facing an actual breach can deny the area around flags and more. additionally we didnt even mention oil, which comes on top of that. basically with 10 people you can deny the whole inner keep with 8 catapults and at least 4 times oil.

I think that it is absolutely fair. Defenders should have advantage. If you cannot take the keep go and flag another one. Not everything in the game should be achieved with brute force. Use some tactics, this is what the Cyro PvP is lacking.

Checkmath

Bashev wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

nice idea, when every place is denied in the enemy keep

You are a class rep and exaggerate that much?
Use some tactics and make another breech on the opposite side.
You do know there is a siege limit right?
Not only that the projectile arc doesn't let you hit directly below or is too long to hit many places in the keep.

even as class rep i am allowed to exaggerate, but actually i didnt.
i already have seen enough of the new catapults and it is very unfair, when 5 people can defend a keep against 30 by just placing each one catapult. and yes, the whole inner keep around the flags is covered by those aoes, when you do it right. so basically the chance to turn flags is close to zero.
i saw enough groups, who should be able to push a keep (which should be a viable possibility), but they didnt, they died within seconds. i saw guilds leaving no cp campaign because of the state of sieges. i am not mad, since i earned tons of AP too by those catapults, only placing one down and a left clock from time to time grants you several thousands of AP. this can be done by anyone, it doesnt require skill, only left click spamming. meanwhile the player has no value anymore in a keep. if you dont have sieges, you are worthless, because you cant do that much aoe damage by yourself and additionally you probably die by going to a breach and trying something.

about your suggestions:
sure a breach on the other side works for sure, if we talk about the outer wall. then its no problem. i have seen keeps with more than 3 breaches in the outer, it just took very long to do so and around 40 attackers.
the siege limit isnt a problem, since the defenders do not even need 5 catapults per breach, so they can cover 4-6 breaches (just place one additional player to each breach with time stop spam).
now about the inner keep fight. there isnt even space for defenders to reach the siege limit with catapults. additionally to successfully push a defended inner keep you need two big groups, both pushing one breach at the same time and even then a victory is surely not guaranteed, since pretty much every meter between and around the flags can be covered with aoes from catapults, additionally stacking aoe at the breaches ticking for 3k each. i havent seen much succesfull keep turnings lately, when the attacker had less than 20 people against a few defenders with catapults.
the projectile arc isnt a problem at all neither, there are enough places to set up the catapults to simultaniously deny different keep areas. also can they be placed, such that two catapults can cover the others area if even necessary.
there is place for around 8 catapults in the inner keep and you can cover every centimeter from postern wall to postern wall to maingate with those. that makes more than two sieges per breach, meanwhile those not facing an actual breach can deny the area around flags and more. additionally we didnt even mention oil, which comes on top of that. basically with 10 people you can deny the whole inner keep with 8 catapults and at least 4 times oil.

I think that it is absolutely fair. Defenders should have advantage. If you cannot take the keep go and flag another one. Not everything in the game should be achieved with brute force. Use some tactics, this is what the Cyro PvP is lacking.

it is fair to give defenders an advantage, but not an advantage of that scale. if attackers would need about twice the numbers of the defenders, ok that sounds fair, but atm you can hold a keep with 5 people against 20+ enemies. such outnumbering should mostly result in the keep getting taken over, but atm thats not the case.

Bashev

Checkmath wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

nice idea, when every place is denied in the enemy keep

You are a class rep and exaggerate that much?
Use some tactics and make another breech on the opposite side.
You do know there is a siege limit right?
Not only that the projectile arc doesn't let you hit directly below or is too long to hit many places in the keep.

even as class rep i am allowed to exaggerate, but actually i didnt.
i already have seen enough of the new catapults and it is very unfair, when 5 people can defend a keep against 30 by just placing each one catapult. and yes, the whole inner keep around the flags is covered by those aoes, when you do it right. so basically the chance to turn flags is close to zero.
i saw enough groups, who should be able to push a keep (which should be a viable possibility), but they didnt, they died within seconds. i saw guilds leaving no cp campaign because of the state of sieges. i am not mad, since i earned tons of AP too by those catapults, only placing one down and a left clock from time to time grants you several thousands of AP. this can be done by anyone, it doesnt require skill, only left click spamming. meanwhile the player has no value anymore in a keep. if you dont have sieges, you are worthless, because you cant do that much aoe damage by yourself and additionally you probably die by going to a breach and trying something.

about your suggestions:
sure a breach on the other side works for sure, if we talk about the outer wall. then its no problem. i have seen keeps with more than 3 breaches in the outer, it just took very long to do so and around 40 attackers.
the siege limit isnt a problem, since the defenders do not even need 5 catapults per breach, so they can cover 4-6 breaches (just place one additional player to each breach with time stop spam).
now about the inner keep fight. there isnt even space for defenders to reach the siege limit with catapults. additionally to successfully push a defended inner keep you need two big groups, both pushing one breach at the same time and even then a victory is surely not guaranteed, since pretty much every meter between and around the flags can be covered with aoes from catapults, additionally stacking aoe at the breaches ticking for 3k each. i havent seen much succesfull keep turnings lately, when the attacker had less than 20 people against a few defenders with catapults.
the projectile arc isnt a problem at all neither, there are enough places to set up the catapults to simultaniously deny different keep areas. also can they be placed, such that two catapults can cover the others area if even necessary.
there is place for around 8 catapults in the inner keep and you can cover every centimeter from postern wall to postern wall to maingate with those. that makes more than two sieges per breach, meanwhile those not facing an actual breach can deny the area around flags and more. additionally we didnt even mention oil, which comes on top of that. basically with 10 people you can deny the whole inner keep with 8 catapults and at least 4 times oil.

I think that it is absolutely fair. Defenders should have advantage. If you cannot take the keep go and flag another one. Not everything in the game should be achieved with brute force. Use some tactics, this is what the Cyro PvP is lacking.

it is fair to give defenders an advantage, but not an advantage of that scale. if attackers would need about twice the numbers of the defenders, ok that sounds fair, but atm you can hold a keep with 5 people against 20+ enemies. such outnumbering should mostly result in the keep getting taken over, but atm thats not the case.

Are these 5 players in a group? Are these 20 players in a group? I assume that you are talking that these 5 play together and these 20 are randoms. Otherwise these 20 players will take the keep for under 5 minutes if only 5 player defend it.

Anyway my opinion is taking a Castle should not be a joke. That castle flipping in Cyro is one of the worst things for me.

Checkmath

Bashev wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

nice idea, when every place is denied in the enemy keep

You are a class rep and exaggerate that much?
Use some tactics and make another breech on the opposite side.
You do know there is a siege limit right?
Not only that the projectile arc doesn't let you hit directly below or is too long to hit many places in the keep.

even as class rep i am allowed to exaggerate, but actually i didnt.
i already have seen enough of the new catapults and it is very unfair, when 5 people can defend a keep against 30 by just placing each one catapult. and yes, the whole inner keep around the flags is covered by those aoes, when you do it right. so basically the chance to turn flags is close to zero.
i saw enough groups, who should be able to push a keep (which should be a viable possibility), but they didnt, they died within seconds. i saw guilds leaving no cp campaign because of the state of sieges. i am not mad, since i earned tons of AP too by those catapults, only placing one down and a left clock from time to time grants you several thousands of AP. this can be done by anyone, it doesnt require skill, only left click spamming. meanwhile the player has no value anymore in a keep. if you dont have sieges, you are worthless, because you cant do that much aoe damage by yourself and additionally you probably die by going to a breach and trying something.

about your suggestions:
sure a breach on the other side works for sure, if we talk about the outer wall. then its no problem. i have seen keeps with more than 3 breaches in the outer, it just took very long to do so and around 40 attackers.
the siege limit isnt a problem, since the defenders do not even need 5 catapults per breach, so they can cover 4-6 breaches (just place one additional player to each breach with time stop spam).
now about the inner keep fight. there isnt even space for defenders to reach the siege limit with catapults. additionally to successfully push a defended inner keep you need two big groups, both pushing one breach at the same time and even then a victory is surely not guaranteed, since pretty much every meter between and around the flags can be covered with aoes from catapults, additionally stacking aoe at the breaches ticking for 3k each. i havent seen much succesfull keep turnings lately, when the attacker had less than 20 people against a few defenders with catapults.
the projectile arc isnt a problem at all neither, there are enough places to set up the catapults to simultaniously deny different keep areas. also can they be placed, such that two catapults can cover the others area if even necessary.
there is place for around 8 catapults in the inner keep and you can cover every centimeter from postern wall to postern wall to maingate with those. that makes more than two sieges per breach, meanwhile those not facing an actual breach can deny the area around flags and more. additionally we didnt even mention oil, which comes on top of that. basically with 10 people you can deny the whole inner keep with 8 catapults and at least 4 times oil.

I think that it is absolutely fair. Defenders should have advantage. If you cannot take the keep go and flag another one. Not everything in the game should be achieved with brute force. Use some tactics, this is what the Cyro PvP is lacking.

it is fair to give defenders an advantage, but not an advantage of that scale. if attackers would need about twice the numbers of the defenders, ok that sounds fair, but atm you can hold a keep with 5 people against 20+ enemies. such outnumbering should mostly result in the keep getting taken over, but atm thats not the case.

Are these 5 players in a group? Are these 20 players in a group? I assume that you are talking that these 5 play together and these 20 are randoms. Otherwise these 20 players will take the keep for under 5 minutes if only 5 player defend it.

Anyway my opinion is taking a Castle should not be a joke. That castle flipping in Cyro is one of the worst things for me.

the castle flipping didnt change much, as soon as one alliance has overwhelming powers, no keep is safe, doesnt matter if 10 or 20 are defending with catapults. it just takes a bit longer. also pvdooring will stay the same. only the middle thing changed and made defenders (even scrub defenders) much more competent. it doesnt matte, if the 5 are in a group or not, if all 5 have a catapult faced to the breach it is enough to make the entrance a horrible experience. if those 5 are in a group, they will just add some coordinated skills between firing the catapults, but in the end the catapults do the work.

TequilaFire

So how do you propose we defend against 30 players coming through the breech killing us instantly with rune cage and broken sorc executes? Not to mention getting hit by attackers armor procs on the second floor from the ground while trying to defend. If anything oils need strengthened against players as they still stand in them, the ram dissolves but the players live. lol

Joy_Division

TequilaFire wrote: »

So how do you propose we defend against 30 players coming through the breech killing us instantly with rune cage and broken sorc executes? Not to mention getting hit by attackers armor procs on the second floor from the ground while trying to defend. If anything oils need strengthened against players as they still stand in them, the ram dissolves but the players live. lol

It's harder because the seige mechanics you are so happy about absolutely destroy the players on the top dropping the oils.

If the defenders are outnumbered in a keep, all the can do against a front door attack is put 2 cats by the back flag and have a 3rd very exposed on by the door. The only oils that can be used with any consistency are from the sides of the stairs. The attackers are free to set up as they wish on the porch and can even get into the front door uncontested. The attackers can put more siege into the castle than defenders can counter with. That's the big problem people who love siege and think it's perfectly ok to press a button and automatically destroy players, the other side gets to use the same mechanics so if there are more of them, you'll still lose.

I hate to burst bubbles here, but pretty much the only guarantee that your outnumbered force is supposed to defend a keep against 30+ players coming through the breech is for your force to be good and skilled at the game.

TequilaFire

Joy_Division wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

So how do you propose we defend against 30 players coming through the breech killing us instantly with rune cage and broken sorc executes? Not to mention getting hit by attackers armor procs on the second floor from the ground while trying to defend. If anything oils need strengthened against players as they still stand in them, the ram dissolves but the players live. lol

It's harder because the seige mechanics you are so happy about absolutely destroy the players on the top dropping the oils.

If the defenders are outnumbered in a keep, all the can do against a front door attack is put 2 cats by the back flag and have a 3rd very exposed on by the door. The only oils that can be used with any consistency are from the sides of the stairs. The attackers are free to set up as they wish on the porch and can even get into the front door uncontested. The attackers can put more siege into the castle than defenders can counter with. That's the big problem people who love siege and think it's perfectly ok to press a button and automatically destroy players, the other side gets to use the same mechanics so if there are more of them, you'll still lose.

I hate to burst bubbles here, but pretty much the only guarantee that your outnumbered force is supposed to defend a keep against 30+ players coming through the breech is for your force to be good and skilled at the game.

Typical fluff over answer from a zerg supporter.
Siege is supposed to hurt.
As to the counter siege on top, we usually leave the safety of the inner and wipe the enemy wall sieges.
What side postern doors and stealth are for.

TequilaFire

Besides the discussion is about noCP siege strength where it is too strong.
In CP you have the tools to deal with it.

Drakkdjinn

Bashev wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Sieges are fine, they should be strong.

If you're standing in stupid, that's your fault.

Maybe you should stop hunting achievement points and come back to pvp every once in a while, then you´ll see the situation and that "standing in stupid" is not really what it looks like.

In any kind of smaller group, when playing heavily outnumbered, you will have to use Line-of-Sight and Burst to survive and kill people.
Line-of-Sight means chokes and smaller areas. However, in those scenarios, it´s basically impossible to not stand in at least one meatbag. So even if you constantly move around, at some point the whole area of your fighting spot will be covered in red.

Denial of area is the whole idea.

nice idea, when every place is denied in the enemy keep

You are a class rep and exaggerate that much?
Use some tactics and make another breech on the opposite side.
You do know there is a siege limit right?
Not only that the projectile arc doesn't let you hit directly below or is too long to hit many places in the keep.

even as class rep i am allowed to exaggerate, but actually i didnt.
i already have seen enough of the new catapults and it is very unfair, when 5 people can defend a keep against 30 by just placing each one catapult. and yes, the whole inner keep around the flags is covered by those aoes, when you do it right. so basically the chance to turn flags is close to zero.
i saw enough groups, who should be able to push a keep (which should be a viable possibility), but they didnt, they died within seconds. i saw guilds leaving no cp campaign because of the state of sieges. i am not mad, since i earned tons of AP too by those catapults, only placing one down and a left clock from time to time grants you several thousands of AP. this can be done by anyone, it doesnt require skill, only left click spamming. meanwhile the player has no value anymore in a keep. if you dont have sieges, you are worthless, because you cant do that much aoe damage by yourself and additionally you probably die by going to a breach and trying something.

about your suggestions:
sure a breach on the other side works for sure, if we talk about the outer wall. then its no problem. i have seen keeps with more than 3 breaches in the outer, it just took very long to do so and around 40 attackers.
the siege limit isnt a problem, since the defenders do not even need 5 catapults per breach, so they can cover 4-6 breaches (just place one additional player to each breach with time stop spam).
now about the inner keep fight. there isnt even space for defenders to reach the siege limit with catapults. additionally to successfully push a defended inner keep you need two big groups, both pushing one breach at the same time and even then a victory is surely not guaranteed, since pretty much every meter between and around the flags can be covered with aoes from catapults, additionally stacking aoe at the breaches ticking for 3k each. i havent seen much succesfull keep turnings lately, when the attacker had less than 20 people against a few defenders with catapults.
the projectile arc isnt a problem at all neither, there are enough places to set up the catapults to simultaniously deny different keep areas. also can they be placed, such that two catapults can cover the others area if even necessary.
there is place for around 8 catapults in the inner keep and you can cover every centimeter from postern wall to postern wall to maingate with those. that makes more than two sieges per breach, meanwhile those not facing an actual breach can deny the area around flags and more. additionally we didnt even mention oil, which comes on top of that. basically with 10 people you can deny the whole inner keep with 8 catapults and at least 4 times oil.

I think that it is absolutely fair. Defenders should have advantage. If you cannot take the keep go and flag another one. Not everything in the game should be achieved with brute force. Use some tactics, this is what the Cyro PvP is lacking.

The only tactic this encourages is PvDoor & night capping to maximize defense siege spam potential to farm breaches by pressing one button over and over; hardly engaging gameplay.

Joy_Division

TequilaFire wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

So how do you propose we defend against 30 players coming through the breech killing us instantly with rune cage and broken sorc executes? Not to mention getting hit by attackers armor procs on the second floor from the ground while trying to defend. If anything oils need strengthened against players as they still stand in them, the ram dissolves but the players live. lol

It's harder because the seige mechanics you are so happy about absolutely destroy the players on the top dropping the oils.

If the defenders are outnumbered in a keep, all the can do against a front door attack is put 2 cats by the back flag and have a 3rd very exposed on by the door. The only oils that can be used with any consistency are from the sides of the stairs. The attackers are free to set up as they wish on the porch and can even get into the front door uncontested. The attackers can put more siege into the castle than defenders can counter with. That's the big problem people who love siege and think it's perfectly ok to press a button and automatically destroy players, the other side gets to use the same mechanics so if there are more of them, you'll still lose.

I hate to burst bubbles here, but pretty much the only guarantee that your outnumbered force is supposed to defend a keep against 30+ players coming through the breech is for your force to be good and skilled at the game.

Typical fluff over answer from a zerg supporter.
Siege is supposed to hurt.
As to the counter siege on top, we usually leave the safety of the inner and wipe the enemy wall sieges.
What side postern doors and stealth are for.

And typical contradictions from someone blinded by their own bias.

YOU just asked:

TequilaFire wrote: »

So how do you propose we defend against 30 players coming through the breech killing us instantly with rune cage and broken sorc executes?

And yet you claim:

"TequilaFire wrote:

we usually leave the safety of the inner and wipe the enemy wall sieges.
What side postern doors and stealth are for.

You don't need powerful siege!

TequilaFire

Joy_Division wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

So how do you propose we defend against 30 players coming through the breech killing us instantly with rune cage and broken sorc executes? Not to mention getting hit by attackers armor procs on the second floor from the ground while trying to defend. If anything oils need strengthened against players as they still stand in them, the ram dissolves but the players live. lol

It's harder because the seige mechanics you are so happy about absolutely destroy the players on the top dropping the oils.

If the defenders are outnumbered in a keep, all the can do against a front door attack is put 2 cats by the back flag and have a 3rd very exposed on by the door. The only oils that can be used with any consistency are from the sides of the stairs. The attackers are free to set up as they wish on the porch and can even get into the front door uncontested. The attackers can put more siege into the castle than defenders can counter with. That's the big problem people who love siege and think it's perfectly ok to press a button and automatically destroy players, the other side gets to use the same mechanics so if there are more of them, you'll still lose.

I hate to burst bubbles here, but pretty much the only guarantee that your outnumbered force is supposed to defend a keep against 30+ players coming through the breech is for your force to be good and skilled at the game.

Typical fluff over answer from a zerg supporter.
Siege is supposed to hurt.
As to the counter siege on top, we usually leave the safety of the inner and wipe the enemy wall sieges.
What side postern doors and stealth are for.

And typical contradictions from someone blinded by their own bias.

YOU just asked:

TequilaFire wrote: »

So how do you propose we defend against 30 players coming through the breech killing us instantly with rune cage and broken sorc executes?

And yet you claim:

"TequilaFire wrote:

we usually leave the safety of the inner and wipe the enemy wall sieges.
What side postern doors and stealth are for.

You don't need powerful siege!

It's not bias it is my opinion. If you go through this whole thread you will see the majority of the posts support the current siege in CP and just want to normalize the siege damage in noCP.

So as class rep instead of your own opinion I hope you are taking note of those facts.

Sanctum74

What if we gave it the Zaan treatment? Lower the initial damage significantly, but have it increase with each tick. This way people can still react to it since seige telegraphs don't always work, but if they stay there they will die.