Scattershot and Meatbag in Pvp right now (Non-CP)

RealPhoenix

I don´t think I have to add a lot of explanation to these 3 screenshots. Meatbag and Scattershot dots are out of control in Non-CP right now.
As a matter of fact, all sieges are. Sieges should be supporting a fight, but it should be the players deciding it, not siege weapons that take no skill and no risk to use.

Two things are the main issues right now:
1. The sieges are too strong in Non-CP and a bit too weak in CP. Please consider separating their damage numbers for the respective campaigns, as you did with NPCs now.
2. Scattershot and Meatbag are just out of control. Their ground dots deal way too much damage, especially when stacked on top of each other. Furthermore, their ground AoEs are so big that keep fights almost get impossible once some people start using the sieges cause the effect can obviously not be purged while standing in the dot. @ZOS_BrianWheeler please consider nerfing the range or damage of these siege weapons at least for Non-CP.

PS: These screenshots are from various different people in a highly optimized group setup with constant purging and minor / major protection buffs and major resolve / ward on the players.

Biro123

Did you try spending Magicka to increase your combat effectiveness?

DeadlyRecluse

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

This should definitely be nerfed, especially considering the fact that those dots are currently not affected by siege shield.

0.o

That's...special.

But on topic, yeah, siege values really need to be normalized in CP and NoCP. NPCs are more normalized across both experiences now, but siege is so strong in noCP...

IMO, the difference between CP and NoCP should be pretty much limited to player builds and interaction. The mechanical parts of cyrodiil (siege, NPCs, keeptaking, etc etc) should be pretty much the same in both.

barshemm

Pretty sure I've seen scattershot damage ticks go down when I've used it on a shielded area. I think if you stack a few shields it negates it. That's been my experience firing it.

1 bubble isn't as effective as 3, 3 seems to be as much as you can stack.

RealPhoenix

barshemm wrote: »

Pretty sure I've seen scattershot damage ticks go down when I've used it on a shielded area. I think if you stack a few shields it negates it. That's been my experience firing it.

1 bubble isn't as effective as 3, 3 seems to be as much as you can stack.

Hey, I tested the issue again and you are right, siege shield does reduce the damage. Someone told me they tested it, seems like this was wrong. Sorry about the misinformation.


I did a test myself now though and stacking doesn´t seem to work.

I will adjust the post accordingly.

IZZEFlameLash

No-CP looks very much more balanced than CP /s

jaime1982

I think the dmg is ok. It has to be worth keeping the player off the field (fight) and stationary able to be damaged or killed.

vamp_emily

Right now in Kyne it is Siege Vs Siege. Whoever can Siege first and proc sload is the winner.

CompM4s

Siege seems fine. Getting hit by a giant boulder or bolt should kill fairly easy. Gives defending people a chance when outnumbered. I have enjoy working for a keep and utilizing different siege strategies

Joy_Division

It's almost like changes designed to kill the best ball-groups in max CP campaigns might act as veritable thermonuclear weapons with accompany deadly radiation zones in a no CP setting, where said ball-groups don't really play.

Vapirko

Would absolutely have to be limited to No CP. They're just barely effective in CP. You can hold a not so good group of maybe 10 with some siege and guards, other than that though, people just run right through them. They're absolutely completely not effective against a decent group with a healer even a small group.

Vapirko

vamp_emily wrote: »

Right now in Kyne it is Siege Vs Siege. Whoever can Siege first and proc sload is the winner.

Sloads procing on siege is by far the dumbest *** ever invented in this game. When I saw that first happen I was convinced Id seen ZOS go as low as they can.

Feanor

Vapirko wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Right now in Kyne it is Siege Vs Siege. Whoever can Siege first and proc sload is the winner.

Sloads procing on siege is by far the dumbest *** ever invented in this game. When I saw that first happen I was convinced Id seen ZOS go as low as they can.

It fits the tooltip though. Sload’s really procs on ALL damage done. I agree that doesn’t make sense from a game mechanics POV but at least it isn’t buggy as Viper procs on range was.

xan4silkb14_ESO

Siege should be strong enough that you wouldn't want to sit in the area affected, but there shouldn't be any other bonuses applied to the siege range/damage unless it come through the Alliance war skill line.

LinearParadox

Oh? You mean you're not able to face-tank damage from a SIEGE ENGINE cappable of crushing STONE WALLS? Oh No!
-_-
Siege has been pathetically underpowered in this game for years.
Siege is supposed to be the natural counter against zerging, but it wasn't. And that vacuum meant that there was only one defense against a zerg; a bigger, better coordinated zerg, stacking Destro ults, purge, etc.
Siege was a joke, and in its absence we were left with a war of escalation of zerg v zerg that brought to an end the patience of many players, and brought the servers to their knees.
So excuse me if I don't have much sympathy when players die to mechanics they damn well ought to, and should've been for years.

Or did you never try firing siege into a zerg, watching no one's health bar move, then get immediately swarmed and slaughtered? It's not fun, it's not strategic, it's not good counterplay, it's not anything except dumb.

davey1107

In eso live they discussed this, and the idea is that you’re given a large warning sign on the ground that they want you to feel compelled to evacuate from. In theory it will stop zergs from “stacking on the crown”.

LinearParadox

davey1107 wrote: »

In eso live they discussed this, and the idea is that you’re given a large warning sign on the ground that they want you to feel compelled to evacuate from. In theory it will stop zergs from “stacking on the crown”.

This.
I didn't even point out (didn't think I had to) those "huge" numbers in those pics that look all impressive and shocking... they have little numbers next to them... 4s... 5s... 7s...
You're STANDING IN IT. -_-
In PvE dungeons, they call that "standing in stupid".
Try avoiding the hazards?
Can't get through the choke? Too bad. That's called a well-defined keep.
Open another hole in the wall on the other side. There's much less space for siege inside the keep walls, than outside. Open another hole and counter-siege them.
Use ranged attacks to get them off their siege, etc.
Try using a little strategy besides zerg rushing and face-tanking their defenses.

The biggest issue us that the games imbalances have been training people to play braindead, to not think of solutions, of strategy.
There's only been one thing: numbers. And you either have them or you don't. Each individual player is held responsible for nothing, because they win or lose based on zerg size 95% of the time.

Checkmath

LinearParadox wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

In eso live they discussed this, and the idea is that you’re given a large warning sign on the ground that they want you to feel compelled to evacuate from. In theory it will stop zergs from “stacking on the crown”.

This.
I didn't even point out (didn't think I had to) those "huge" numbers in those pics that look all impressive and shocking... they have little numbers next to them... 4s... 5s... 7s...
You're STANDING IN IT. -_-
In PvE dungeons, they call that "standing in stupid".
Try avoiding the hazards?
Can't get through the choke? Too bad. That's called a well-defined keep.
Open another hole in the wall on the other side. There's much less space for siege inside the keep walls, than outside. Open another hole and counter-siege them.
Use ranged attacks to get them off their siege, etc.
Try using a little strategy besides zerg rushing and face-tanking their defenses.

The biggest issue us that the games imbalances have been training people to play braindead, to not think of solutions, of strategy.
There's only been one thing: numbers. And you either have them or you don't. Each individual player is held responsible for nothing, because they win or lose based on zerg size 95% of the time.

maybe you should read again the OP. OP played in a highly coordinated guild group with constant speedbuff, purge and huge healing output given and they didnt make it through a breach. Atm fights in no cp pvp around keeps take very long, because you really need to take down half of the walls to be able to get into the keep.
you just said, that the inner keep is then an easier task, which is actually wrong. in the inner keep most attackers die, because there is no place at all, where you can avoid damage, since every spot is covered by oil and catapults.
catapults where weak before summerset, but sieges not at all. we are talking about no cp pvp, where a fire ballista or a stone trebuchet can one shot people. and i didnt even mention coldfire ballistas and trebuchets yet.
Please have a look again at the pictures OP posted, they are all in the inner keep. you said he died, because he played dumb and stood in the aoe. once again: OP plays in a good coordinated guild with heal and purge "bots", but they died. they died because there is no single spot left in the inner keep, where you arent defiled or damaged. thats the problem, the aoes are huge and stack and you can pretty much cover the whole inner keep with 3 or 4 catapults with a huge damage output.

LinearParadox

Checkmath wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

In eso live they discussed this, and the idea is that you’re given a large warning sign on the ground that they want you to feel compelled to evacuate from. In theory it will stop zergs from “stacking on the crown”.

This.
I didn't even point out (didn't think I had to) those "huge" numbers in those pics that look all impressive and shocking... they have little numbers next to them... 4s... 5s... 7s...
You're STANDING IN IT. -_-
In PvE dungeons, they call that "standing in stupid".
Try avoiding the hazards?
Can't get through the choke? Too bad. That's called a well-defined keep.
Open another hole in the wall on the other side. There's much less space for siege inside the keep walls, than outside. Open another hole and counter-siege them.
Use ranged attacks to get them off their siege, etc.
Try using a little strategy besides zerg rushing and face-tanking their defenses.

The biggest issue us that the games imbalances have been training people to play braindead, to not think of solutions, of strategy.
There's only been one thing: numbers. And you either have them or you don't. Each individual player is held responsible for nothing, because they win or lose based on zerg size 95% of the time.

maybe you should read again the OP. OP played in a highly coordinated guild group with constant speedbuff, purge and huge healing output given and they didnt make it through a breach. Atm fights in no cp pvp around keeps take very long, because you really need to take down half of the walls to be able to get into the keep.
you just said, that the inner keep is then an easier task, which is actually wrong. in the inner keep most attackers die, because there is no place at all, where you can avoid damage, since every spot is covered by oil and catapults.
catapults where weak before summerset, but sieges not at all. we are talking about no cp pvp, where a fire ballista or a stone trebuchet can one shot people. and i didnt even mention coldfire ballistas and trebuchets yet.
Please have a look again at the pictures OP posted, they are all in the inner keep. you said he died, because he played dumb and stood in the aoe. once again: OP plays in a good coordinated guild with heal and purge "bots", but they died. they died because there is no single spot left in the inner keep, where you arent defiled or damaged. thats the problem, the aoes are huge and stack and you can pretty much cover the whole inner keep with 3 or 4 catapults with a huge damage output.

I didn't misread or misunderstand. What you said is exactly what I was talking about.
"Well coordinated group, purge and heal bots, etc" those kinds of groups expect to be able to power through siege damage by stacking abilities. That shouldn't have ever been possible, now it's not, and people don't want to adjust.
They keep beating their head against a wall rather than changing their strategy just like I said.
People are still thinking in zerg terms; oh maybe we need more purge monkies, maybe we need more heal bots, etc etc etc. They keep trying to make the zerg murderball rush work but it WON'T.
Let me stress again... THATS A GOOD THING.

Siege damage is up, AoE caps are finally history, and you can't abuse them anymore to blitz past 6 siege at a choke point.
You've gotta adapt. You CAN adapt. People just don't want to. They wanna turn their brains off and zerg surf to victory through numbers... against a mechanic that's specifically designed to counter numbers.

Checkmath

LinearParadox wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

In eso live they discussed this, and the idea is that you’re given a large warning sign on the ground that they want you to feel compelled to evacuate from. In theory it will stop zergs from “stacking on the crown”.

This.
I didn't even point out (didn't think I had to) those "huge" numbers in those pics that look all impressive and shocking... they have little numbers next to them... 4s... 5s... 7s...
You're STANDING IN IT. -_-
In PvE dungeons, they call that "standing in stupid".
Try avoiding the hazards?
Can't get through the choke? Too bad. That's called a well-defined keep.
Open another hole in the wall on the other side. There's much less space for siege inside the keep walls, than outside. Open another hole and counter-siege them.
Use ranged attacks to get them off their siege, etc.
Try using a little strategy besides zerg rushing and face-tanking their defenses.

The biggest issue us that the games imbalances have been training people to play braindead, to not think of solutions, of strategy.
There's only been one thing: numbers. And you either have them or you don't. Each individual player is held responsible for nothing, because they win or lose based on zerg size 95% of the time.

maybe you should read again the OP. OP played in a highly coordinated guild group with constant speedbuff, purge and huge healing output given and they didnt make it through a breach. Atm fights in no cp pvp around keeps take very long, because you really need to take down half of the walls to be able to get into the keep.
you just said, that the inner keep is then an easier task, which is actually wrong. in the inner keep most attackers die, because there is no place at all, where you can avoid damage, since every spot is covered by oil and catapults.
catapults where weak before summerset, but sieges not at all. we are talking about no cp pvp, where a fire ballista or a stone trebuchet can one shot people. and i didnt even mention coldfire ballistas and trebuchets yet.
Please have a look again at the pictures OP posted, they are all in the inner keep. you said he died, because he played dumb and stood in the aoe. once again: OP plays in a good coordinated guild with heal and purge "bots", but they died. they died because there is no single spot left in the inner keep, where you arent defiled or damaged. thats the problem, the aoes are huge and stack and you can pretty much cover the whole inner keep with 3 or 4 catapults with a huge damage output.

I didn't misread or misunderstand. What you said is exactly what I was talking about.
"Well coordinated group, purge and heal bots, etc" those kinds of groups expect to be able to power through siege damage by stacking abilities. That shouldn't have ever been possible, now it's not, and people don't want to adjust.
They keep beating their head against a wall rather than changing their strategy just like I said.
People are still thinking in zerg terms; oh maybe we need more purge monkies, maybe we need more heal bots, etc etc etc. They keep trying to make the zerg murderball rush work but it WON'T.
Let me stress again... THATS A GOOD THING.

Siege damage is up, AoE caps are finally history, and you can't abuse them anymore to blitz past 6 siege at a choke point.
You've gotta adapt. You CAN adapt. People just don't want to. They wanna turn their brains off and zerg surf to victory through numbers... against a mechanic that's specifically designed to counter numbers.

but you know that if not even a coordinated group make it through a breach, then nobody will. solo its impossible to enter, only exceptions are maybe mistform and a lucky gapcloser. still the distance between inner maingate and the upper flag is very big and nobody will survive such a distance covered by several siege areas.
counter siege only works to some degree, since if you can reach their sieges with a catapult, then they reach yours too and you got the disadvantage that their sieges are already setup. ranged attacks are a horrible idea, since players at sieges normally are covered behind obstacles in keeps or are around corners, so line of sight is not given. additionally you cant target them standing behind their sieges.
ok well opening up a new breach would work, but till one is open, the other one is closed and all sieges are looking again your way and the new breach.

Kartalin

The point is, yes we expect siege to be powerful. But it’s so powerful that it diminishes skill. Skill is less of a determining factor in keep assaults because so many people are content to point and click with their mouse instead and can achieve victory.

The death of skill’s importance in this game is the death of the game itself.

Checkmath

Edited.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

You do realize one must "stand in stupid" to flip a flag right?

That first flag is usually an utter mess. I know I usually have a scatter trained on it and I fully expect to be hit by incoming defending that flag.

Can't flip or defend a flag just standing upstairs.

gabriebe

I don`t mind it so much in a large scale setting, it makes defending a keep outnumbered easier and it forces attackers to open up more than hole in the keep most times. It seems to help countering large group who would normally just rush to the top of the keep with one purge or two.

It sucks when you`re trying to hold a ressource though. The scattershot itself can pretty much just kill the guards.

Datthaw

Checkmath wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

In eso live they discussed this, and the idea is that you’re given a large warning sign on the ground that they want you to feel compelled to evacuate from. In theory it will stop zergs from “stacking on the crown”.

This.
I didn't even point out (didn't think I had to) those "huge" numbers in those pics that look all impressive and shocking... they have little numbers next to them... 4s... 5s... 7s...
You're STANDING IN IT. -_-
In PvE dungeons, they call that "standing in stupid".
Try avoiding the hazards?
Can't get through the choke? Too bad. That's called a well-defined keep.
Open another hole in the wall on the other side. There's much less space for siege inside the keep walls, than outside. Open another hole and counter-siege them.
Use ranged attacks to get them off their siege, etc.
Try using a little strategy besides zerg rushing and face-tanking their defenses.

The biggest issue us that the games imbalances have been training people to play braindead, to not think of solutions, of strategy.
There's only been one thing: numbers. And you either have them or you don't. Each individual player is held responsible for nothing, because they win or lose based on zerg size 95% of the time.

maybe you should read again the OP. OP played in a highly coordinated guild group with constant speedbuff, purge and huge healing output given and they didnt make it through a breach. Atm fights in no cp pvp around keeps take very long, because you really need to take down half of the walls to be able to get into the keep.
you just said, that the inner keep is then an easier task, which is actually wrong. in the inner keep most attackers die, because there is no place at all, where you can avoid damage, since every spot is covered by oil and catapults.
catapults where weak before summerset, but sieges not at all. we are talking about no cp pvp, where a fire ballista or a stone trebuchet can one shot people. and i didnt even mention coldfire ballistas and trebuchets yet.
Please have a look again at the pictures OP posted, they are all in the inner keep. you said he died, because he played dumb and stood in the aoe. once again: OP plays in a good coordinated guild with heal and purge "bots", but they died. they died because there is no single spot left in the inner keep, where you arent defiled or damaged. thats the problem, the aoes are huge and stack and you can pretty much cover the whole inner keep with 3 or 4 catapults with a huge damage output.

I didn't misread or misunderstand. What you said is exactly what I was talking about.
"Well coordinated group, purge and heal bots, etc" those kinds of groups expect to be able to power through siege damage by stacking abilities. That shouldn't have ever been possible, now it's not, and people don't want to adjust.
They keep beating their head against a wall rather than changing their strategy just like I said.
People are still thinking in zerg terms; oh maybe we need more purge monkies, maybe we need more heal bots, etc etc etc. They keep trying to make the zerg murderball rush work but it WON'T.
Let me stress again... THATS A GOOD THING.

Siege damage is up, AoE caps are finally history, and you can't abuse them anymore to blitz past 6 siege at a choke point.
You've gotta adapt. You CAN adapt. People just don't want to. They wanna turn their brains off and zerg surf to victory through numbers... against a mechanic that's specifically designed to counter numbers.

but you know that if not even a coordinated group make it through a breach, then nobody will. solo its impossible to enter, only exceptions are maybe mistform and a lucky gapcloser. still the distance between inner maingate and the upper flag is very big and nobody will survive such a distance covered by several siege areas.
counter siege only works to some degree, since if you can reach their sieges with a catapult, then they reach yours too and you got the disadvantage that their sieges are already setup. ranged attacks are a horrible idea, since players at sieges normally are covered behind obstacles in keeps or are around corners, so line of sight is not given. additionally you cant target them standing behind their sieges.
ok well opening up a new breach would work, but till one is open, the other one is closed and all sieges are looking again your way and the new breach.

You know I gotta agree with linear. People don't like change, and siege has been too weak in the past.

You can look at it from the other side also, I have been defending in keep fights where there was so much counter siege I wasn't able to place catapults anywhere. Top of the inner was a death trap just covered with siege from ramparts, people dropping trebs on the flags from there also front door has catapults coming through from the porch onto flags can't set up defensive siege anywhere. Meanwhile a group rolls in under this cover and flips flags.

Siege is op on both sides, you just need to adapt.

Asardes

L2 Barrier, stack heals and enter keep at the same time? Also opening a 2nd siege at the postern and breaking in trough there, and setting up your own siege engines works wonders. Sieges are fine.

gabriebe

I do agree that there is a point where you just don't have anywhere safe in the keep, and even counterproductive. The top part of the keep especially could use more protection.

TequilaFire

Kartalin wrote: »

The point is, yes we expect siege to be powerful. But it’s so powerful that it diminishes skill. Skill is less of a determining factor in keep assaults because so many people are content to point and click with their mouse instead and can achieve victory.

The death of skill’s importance in this game is the death of the game itself.

So tired of hearing this skill nonsense when all you mean is your overpowering numbers just can't waltz through a breech.
Skill is tactics in this case, open another breech and flank the defenders on the wall while some of you keep the original defenders occupied on the original breech. Hell you certainly usually have enough numbers to do so.
The one thing I do agree with is that CP and nonCP should be balanced separately.

TequilaFire

gabriebe wrote: »

I do agree that there is a point where you just don't have anywhere safe in the keep, and even counterproductive. The top part of the keep especially could use more protection.

So you can just pour oil from above and your armor proc kill players below with abandon?

gabriebe

The way it is right now, you can cover the entire inside of the keep with scattershot and people got nowhere to go to put up defensive siege, I dont think it`s ideal. Or particularly interesting to die in siege before anyone pushes in.

But more generally speaking the keeps in ESO could use a redo. They should have layouts that are a little bit more unique and interesting to navigate through. Also not sure why all the keeps are in the Breton style in imperial lands...

TequilaFire

You could go out a side postern door get up on the wall and sneak up behind the siegers and kill them as they are sitting ducks. NBs are good at this.