Not enough stuns in battlegrounds

MrSensible

cpuScientist wrote: »

Use immov pots wear heavy for immov skill make sure to build alot of stamina for break free

I keep seeing people mention immovable pots, as though that has any bearing on the OP. It doesn't. It only is an appropriate response when the question posed is "How do I get stunned less?" (and honestly, it's not even a very good answer to that question) This was not the initial proposition. Nor do I see anyone here asking that question. The issue I raised was that the current ability to spam stuns leads to boring and repetitive strategies. Nay, it actually leads to only ONE strategy. Which is stun, burst, wait, stun, burst, wait, stun, burst, wait. I want pvp to be smarter than it currently is. There is currently very little need to counter play in most situations, as the best and most effective counterplay most of the time is to chain stuns.

I want to be super duper mega clear on this point, I am not requesting advice on avoiding stuns. I regularly get 10-20 kills in a battleground. I am not saying this to be braggadocious, it's simply not that difficult to chain stuns and kill people. It leads to boring gameplay. If there were any other comparatively effective strategies, I certainly haven't found them.

cpuScientist wrote: »

Certain classes such as magDK rely fully on control and the ability to stun and root to fight. If people could not be stunned at all or be resistant for very long periods of time it would woefully unbalance the game. Thode dodgers and permablockers would rule as kings, classes that just load up on damage and are not built around the stuns would have distinct advantages. And dot classes or slower classes basically any mag class would be defunct.

That may be the case. That would just mean that the game would need some further balancing tweeks after the fact. However, currently every successful build in battlegrounds is built around chain-stunning and bursting. Currently, it is these builds that rule as kings. I'm not sure why you think this is better. Just because it's always been that way? Not a good reason, IMO.

Blanket disclaimer: This was not intended to be inflammatory in any way, but I'm sure someone somewhere will find a way to be offended by it regardless.

DenMoria

The Crown Store.

MrSensible wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

So... what I'm getting from this conversation is that 1) You don't want your opponent to have an advantage (fair enough), even though they used the mechanics to achieve that advantage and 2) You want to have an advantage (fair enough), but you don't want your opponent to have any.

Sounds good to me.

That's a cool straw man, where'd ya get it?

itscompton

Peekachu99 wrote: »

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

How would you see this problem solved? You mention diminishing returns, could you flesh out this concept?

All stun durations should be shortened to 1-2s at most, for starters. Especially considering that they’re only viable and used in PVP. There also shouldn’t be a damage component associated with any hard stun, ever, since the stun is often what provides the kill and secondary damage will be coming anyway. CC should be an annoyance, not the sole reason you’re killed. Snares actually aren’t as bad and they already adjusted them. The damage on those should be lowered even more. Also CC immunity is still broken half the time so that’s not helping perception of these events.

For what it’s worth, you can still outheal and outtank BG CCs/ Sloads and damage, but I understand lots of people don’t like to play that defensively.

Completely agree that stuns should be capped at 2 to possibly 3 seconds max. Especially considering the longer/unblockable CC's are on MagSorc and StamNB, classes that have the best innate burst ability in the game. My MagTemp has 33K spell and 29K Phys resist and wears Pirate but if a fight lasts more than 10-15 seconds against those two classes it's pretty much guaranteed I'll get hard CC'ed with no stam to break free and then the 4-5 second window of unblocked damage is enough to let even crappy players get an easy W.

bardx86

itscompton wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

How would you see this problem solved? You mention diminishing returns, could you flesh out this concept?

All stun durations should be shortened to 1-2s at most, for starters. Especially considering that they’re only viable and used in PVP. There also shouldn’t be a damage component associated with any hard stun, ever, since the stun is often what provides the kill and secondary damage will be coming anyway. CC should be an annoyance, not the sole reason you’re killed. Snares actually aren’t as bad and they already adjusted them. The damage on those should be lowered even more. Also CC immunity is still broken half the time so that’s not helping perception of these events.

For what it’s worth, you can still outheal and outtank BG CCs/ Sloads and damage, but I understand lots of people don’t like to play that defensively.

Completely agree that stuns should be capped at 2 to possibly 3 seconds max. Especially considering the longer/unblockable CC's are on MagSorc and StamNB, classes that have the best innate burst ability in the game. My MagTemp has 33K spell and 29K Phys resist and wears Pirate but if a fight lasts more than 10-15 seconds against those two classes it's pretty much guaranteed I'll get hard CC'ed with no stam to break free and then the 4-5 second window of unblocked damage is enough to let even crappy players get an easy W.

Sure go ahead and cap the stun length, that will not change a dam thing. Stuns only last 1 GCD on anyone worth their salt. IF the stun is timed correctly that 1 GCD should be enough to kill most folks anyhow. The fix is to fix the immunity granted after break free, its super broke.

Bigevilpeter

That is PvP in general, get stuned a million people hit you at the same time and you're dead, don't know how people enjoy pvp in this game at all

DuskMarine

MrSensible wrote: »

In the last battleground I played (approximately a 10 minute game) there was about a full minute of time where I wasn't stunned. Is there any way we could get this number down to 30 seconds or so? Actually, it would be great if I could just start the match with a debuff that persists and every 8 seconds it just stuns me regardless of whether or not I'm blocking, dodge rolling, or already stunned.

/EndSarcasm

Okay, but seriously, Battlegrounds are like 50% stuns. There's not a ton of strategy that happens during the matches. It's pretty much "stun then spam burst damage." If the person has the audacity to break free from your stun, you put up your shield for 3 seconds until the stun immunity is gone, and then you repeat the process. If it's a flag match, you do it on the flag. If it's a relic match, you do it on the relic carrier's face.

You can build for tankiness if you really want, but you'll be a dead weight to your team. You can build for ranged if you really want, but you'll likely get bursted down. Hard. You can build for magicka, or stam, or whatever. But the most effective strategy is 99 times out of 100 to stunlock the target until they're dead. The most effective players in all the battlegrounds I've played run this strategy. They hang out, pop a stun, then blow every last drop of stamina or magicka they have (some even use macros), then disappear into the shadows until they can do it again. It's also an incredibly effective way to melt through someone's stamina when they have to keep breaking free.

Stuns and knockbacks really need to have diminishing returns. The 3 seconds of stun immunity is simply not cutting it when a decent 4v4 flag fight can last 30 seconds.

It's really uninteresting. and makes battlegrounds not terribly compelling to play. The only thing that's worse right now is being killed by a helmet proc. But that's another thread.

#InB4LearnToBreakFree
#InB4LearnToBlock
#GitGouda

actually the games are 5% stuns 94% sloads semblance and 1% skill.

Drachenfier

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

How would you see this problem solved? You mention diminishing returns, could you flesh out this concept?

Less CC? Since 1999, devs have failed to understand that players don't like constantly losing control of their characters.

I used to think the CC and immunity system in SWTOR were bad, but that's much preferred to the constant stunfest of ESO pvp.

itscompton

bardx86 wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

How would you see this problem solved? You mention diminishing returns, could you flesh out this concept?

All stun durations should be shortened to 1-2s at most, for starters. Especially considering that they’re only viable and used in PVP. There also shouldn’t be a damage component associated with any hard stun, ever, since the stun is often what provides the kill and secondary damage will be coming anyway. CC should be an annoyance, not the sole reason you’re killed. Snares actually aren’t as bad and they already adjusted them. The damage on those should be lowered even more. Also CC immunity is still broken half the time so that’s not helping perception of these events.

For what it’s worth, you can still outheal and outtank BG CCs/ Sloads and damage, but I understand lots of people don’t like to play that defensively.

Completely agree that stuns should be capped at 2 to possibly 3 seconds max. Especially considering the longer/unblockable CC's are on MagSorc and StamNB, classes that have the best innate burst ability in the game. My MagTemp has 33K spell and 29K Phys resist and wears Pirate but if a fight lasts more than 10-15 seconds against those two classes it's pretty much guaranteed I'll get hard CC'ed with no stam to break free and then the 4-5 second window of unblocked damage is enough to let even crappy players get an easy W.

Sure go ahead and cap the stun length, that will not change a dam thing. Stuns only last 1 GCD on anyone worth their salt. IF the stun is timed correctly that 1 GCD should be enough to kill most folks anyhow. The fix is to fix the immunity granted after break free, its super broke.

You must not play Mag characters often. As I said in my first post, if a fight lasts 10-15 seconds it's pretty easy to blow through 14K stamina blocking/breaking free/dodge rolling and after that stam is gone any stun is game over when up against a Magsorc or StamNB. I guarantee that if fear or rune lasted 2 seconds the amount of people that could burst me down while I was stunned would drop dramatically.

MrSensible

bardx86 wrote: »

The fix is to fix the immunity granted after break free, its super broke.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

Jameliel

I just pop a potion, activate Ult if it's up, then start casting shield, blasting spells and light attacks until I run out of magic. Usually I get a kill it two. After that, the enemy has their fun destroying me, and I die rapidly:-D

Stuns and snares from noob mobs in delves, and when Im just trying to run somewhere annoy me more.

dennissomb16_ESO

Just to add a different option around CC I would like to see a basic design change. Make CC, dps, heal abilities etc. single. To be a little clearer I think there are far to many abilities that do multiple actions. DPS abilities that also do knock back or stun etc. Simply put abilities should do one thing, dps, cc, heal, purge etc.

With 2 bars of 5 abilities players would have to be a little more selective on which abilities to use at any given time, count more on teamwork (it is an MMO after all) and reduce the amount of certain types of spamming abilities.

Just a thought (putting on protective gear for the #gitgud responses headed my way LOL)

Peekachu99

Recremen wrote: »

We already have diminishing returns via CC immunity. Stuns are at a great place right now, either use them or lose to them.

That’s not diminishing returns. That’s us just waiting 5s before you can cast it again. Diminishing returns would mean that the next time you cast the CC, it would be less effective than before.

Betsararie

why no many stuns?

WildWilbur

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

If you get successfully stunned by an enemie player you should not be able to break free, unless you get purged by an ally.

Anyone remember good old DAoC with the even older 9 sec Dragonfang stun? Without the realm ability "Purge" (with a whooping 5 sec delay on grad 1 and a 15 minute timer (!!!) on grade 2) you just stood there for 9 whole seconds with your enemy bashing on you...

Aah, not all old times were good...

Pwnyridah

So...you're saying nerf nightblades. I concur.

Shadowmaster

MrSensible wrote: »

There's not a ton of strategy that happens during the matches. It's pretty much "stun then spam burst damage."

Welcome to the current world of fantasy (and even some FPS) pvp combat.

Its either stun->nuke or infinite sustain becomes > all

the system is crap but its the entire gaming industry

Shadowmaster

Waffennacht wrote: »

I disagree with OP

Edit:. Good players only die during a CC break. Only bad players actually experience a stun as good players will always CC break. Also why good players kill during CC break rather than expecting a stun to last

Id agree with this in open world but in no-cp bgs stam for magicka chars means this isn't true in BGS, imo.

Gravord

MrSensible wrote: »

In the last battleground I played (approximately a 10 minute game) there was about a full minute of time where I wasn't stunned. Is there any way we could get this number down to 30 seconds or so? Actually, it would be great if I could just start the match with a debuff that persists and every 8 seconds it just stuns me regardless of whether or not I'm blocking, dodge rolling, or already stunned.

/EndSarcasm

Okay, but seriously, Battlegrounds are like 50% stuns. There's not a ton of strategy that happens during the matches. It's pretty much "stun then spam burst damage." If the person has the audacity to break free from your stun, you put up your shield for 3 seconds until the stun immunity is gone, and then you repeat the process. If it's a flag match, you do it on the flag. If it's a relic match, you do it on the relic carrier's face.

You can build for tankiness if you really want, but you'll be a dead weight to your team. You can build for ranged if you really want, but you'll likely get bursted down. Hard. You can build for magicka, or stam, or whatever. But the most effective strategy is 99 times out of 100 to stunlock the target until they're dead. The most effective players in all the battlegrounds I've played run this strategy. They hang out, pop a stun, then blow every last drop of stamina or magicka they have (some even use macros), then disappear into the shadows until they can do it again. It's also an incredibly effective way to melt through someone's stamina when they have to keep breaking free.

Stuns and knockbacks really need to have diminishing returns. The 3 seconds of stun immunity is simply not cutting it when a decent 4v4 flag fight can last 30 seconds.

It's really uninteresting. and makes battlegrounds not terribly compelling to play. The only thing that's worse right now is being killed by a helmet proc. But that's another thread.

#InB4LearnToBreakFree
#InB4LearnToBlock
#GitGouda

You might want to take a look here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5228391#Comment_5228391